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Mega Man 8-bit Deathmatch => Projects & Creative => W.I.P Forum => Topic started by: MrL1193 on July 27, 2013, 01:03:00 AM

Title: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4b)
Post by: MrL1193 on July 27, 2013, 01:03:00 AM
Now with (hopefully) better balanced classes (and bosses too)!

You will need the balrogsh-overhaul.pk3 (http://static.best-ever.org/wads/balrogsh-overhaul.pk3) wad. (Load this wad FIRST.)

Download the Saxton Hale fix HERE (http://static.best-ever.org/wads/balrogsh-overhaulfix-classrebalanced-v4b.pk3). (Make sure to load this wad second.)

Download the Classes wad HERE (http://static.best-ever.org/wads/classes-v6g-saxtonrebalanced-v4.pk3). (Load this wad third.)

Changes in this version:

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

List of last survivor runes:

(click to show/hide)


I would strongly recommend using server settings to limit the pre-match countdown to no more than 5 seconds. If it is any longer, a boss will be selected during the countdown every round, which will mess up the boss picker.

If you find bugs, please do let me know. I can't promise that I'll know how to fix them, but I'll at least try.



All credit for the original wads goes to Balrog, Tails, Silversin, the Classes team, and everyone else who's ever worked on these mods in the past.

Also, thanks go to Tsuki for giving me tips on how to fix the colors and homing weapons issues.



Past versions:

(click to show/hide)

Any help or advice from those with coding know-how would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Updated Class Saxton Hale (Help Needed)
Post by: ZeStopper on July 27, 2013, 05:42:49 AM
I understand what you're doing here and I guess it's fine, but why are there two WADS when you can combine data into one.
Title: Re: Updated Class Saxton Hale (Help Needed)
Post by: MrL1193 on July 27, 2013, 09:48:11 AM
Quote from: "ThePlayer"
I understand what you're doing here and I guess it's fine, but why are there two WADS when you can combine data into one.
I wasn't sure how to go about doing that. :? As I've explained, this is my first time doing anything with wads; I apologize if it's a clumsy solution, but it was all I could think to do at the time. I'll try to correct the issue in the next version (if I can actually make a new version).
Title: Re: Updated Class Saxton Hale (Help Needed)
Post by: Balrog on July 27, 2013, 11:39:51 AM


The bosses are currently picked just tics after the map starts. No evading that. Also, the code/data split is intended to reduce overall bandwidth requirements by keeping updates that change only the code from forcing you to download all the graphics.
Title: Re: Updated Class Saxton Hale - v1b (Help Needed)
Post by: MrL1193 on July 29, 2013, 04:28:09 AM
The Classes wad is now updated to version 1b.

Hopefully this will resolve the team attack issues...I also used a temporary fix to alter Ring Man's and Star Man's weapons so that they can actually hurt Scrooge. Against other bosses, Ring Man will generally do less damage than before, while Star Man will do more. I intend to implement a more permanent solution in the next version.
Title: Re: Updated Class Saxton Hale - v1b (Help Needed)
Post by: ZeStopper on July 29, 2013, 08:32:47 PM
It worked pretty smooth on the server, good job on fixing those bugs too.
Although, I would really like to see This (http://www.cutstuff.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=4939) be compatible with SH, unless it already is.....
Title: Re: Updated Class Saxton Hale - v1b (Help Needed)
Post by: tsukiyomaru0 on July 29, 2013, 08:48:01 PM
Quote from: "ThePlayer"
It worked pretty smooth on the server, good job on fixing those bugs too.
Although, I would really like to see This (http://www.cutstuff.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=4939) be compatible with SH, unless it already is.....
Last I checked, yes, it is. As long as it is the last file in the command line, I think.
Title: Re: Updated Class Saxton Hale - v1b (Help Needed)
Post by: ZeStopper on July 29, 2013, 08:49:55 PM
That's good. I think I'll host a server now.
Title: Re: Updated Class Saxton Hale - v1c (Now with fixed colors!)
Post by: MrL1193 on August 08, 2013, 02:32:51 AM
Both wads have been updated to version 1c.

I've included a detailed list of changes in the first post. The most significant change is that bosses should now appear with their proper colors. Also worth noting is that homing weapons will not lock on to allies any more.

The rest of the changes were mostly just minor fixes and preparation for class rebalancing. If there are no other problems to deal with for now, my next move will be to balance the classes (and probably buff/tweak the hales a bit).
Title: Re: Updated Class Saxton Hale - v1c (Now with fixed colors!)
Post by: tsukiyomaru0 on August 08, 2013, 03:35:39 AM
filesize is still absurd. Really. Blame it on music and sounds.
Title: Re: Updated Class Saxton Hale - v1c (Now with fixed colors!)
Post by: Rozark on August 08, 2013, 03:51:47 AM
Quote from: "tsukiyomaru0"
filesize is still absurd. Really. Blame it on music and sounds.
I blame the monsterosity that IS Classes + Saxton for the fileseize.
Title: Re: Updated Class Saxton Hale - v1c (Now with fixed colors!)
Post by: Alpha X on August 08, 2013, 04:56:54 AM
when the mm8 classes are released,  you're going to do all this again?
Title: Re: Updated Class Saxton Hale - v1c (Now with fixed colors!)
Post by: ZeStopper on August 08, 2013, 05:03:36 AM
It seems that they will be included. Mainly as this is tweaked Classes with Saxton.
Title: Re: Updated Class Saxton Hale - v1c (Now with fixed colors!)
Post by: MrL1193 on August 08, 2013, 05:33:34 AM
Quote from: "Rozark"
Quote from: "tsukiyomaru0"
filesize is still absurd. Really. Blame it on music and sounds.
I blame the monsterosity that IS Classes + Saxton for the fileseize.
The entire Classes file only makes up about 10% of the total (hence why I decided to only change the Classes file for version 1b). :ugeek: Tsuki is right; the sprites, music, sounds, graphics, and maps make up about 99% of the Saxton Hale file's ridiculous size. For my purposes, I don't need to touch that stuff, so the next time I need to fiddle around with something in the Saxton Hale file (which may not happen immediately), I'm just going to split it into two files so people don't have to keep re-downloading the graphics and audio.

And yeah, I'll try to make Classes v7 compatible whenever it happens to come out. Unless there's some sort of dramatic change, I should be able to do it fairly easily now that I have an idea of what to do.
Title: Re: Updated Class Saxton Hale - v1c (Now with fixed colors!)
Post by: tsukiyomaru0 on August 08, 2013, 05:57:05 AM
Quote from: "MrL1193"
Quote from: "Rozark"
Quote from: "tsukiyomaru0"
filesize is still absurd. Really. Blame it on music and sounds.
I blame the monsterosity that IS Classes + Saxton for the fileseize.
The entire Classes file only makes up about 10% of the total (hence why I decided to only change the Classes file for version 1b). :ugeek: Tsuki is right; the sprites, music, sounds, graphics, and maps make up about 99% of the Saxton Hale file's ridiculous size. For my purposes, I don't need to touch that stuff, so the next time I need to fiddle around with something in the Saxton Hale file (which may not happen immediately), I'm just going to split it into two files so people don't have to keep re-downloading the graphics and audio.

And yeah, I'll try to make Classes v7 compatible whenever it happens to come out. Unless there's some sort of dramatic change, I should be able to do it fairly easily now that I have an idea of what to do.
IIRC, the sound and music are the big files, whereas images are not so big.
Title: Re: Updated Class Saxton Hale - v1c (Now with fixed colors!)
Post by: MrL1193 on August 12, 2013, 10:21:31 PM
Just a quick note, I am working to resolve the compatibility issues caused by the MM8BDM version 3b update. (Classes won't work at all without some modifications to Oil Man's Oil Slider, and the new types of buster damage would cause friendly fire.) I also plan to use this opportunity to divide the Saxton Hale file up so there will be less to download with future updates. I'll try get it all done by the end of the day.
Title: Re: Updated Class Saxton Hale - v1c (Now fixed for MM8BDM v3
Post by: MrL1193 on August 13, 2013, 12:20:59 AM
Well, since Tails came up with a new fix for the Saxton Hale wad, I decided to work off of that instead of trying to organize the data right now. What that means is that you'll now need to load three wads instead of two (including the unaltered SH overhaul file), but you won't have to download the monstrous Saxton Hale file all over again.

I've put up a version 3b server now. Feel free to drop by if you like...
Title: Re: Updated Class Saxton Hale - v1c (Now fixed for MM8BDM v3
Post by: TailsMK4 on August 13, 2013, 12:33:46 AM
Quote from: "MrL1193"
Well, since Tails came up with a new fix for the Saxton Hale wad, I decided to work off of that instead of trying to organize the data right now.

Inb4 I take the blame for the Classes Saxton fever now. >_>

I suppose people still enjoy my version of Saxton, but a little less Classes Sax, please?
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale
Post by: MrL1193 on August 16, 2013, 04:26:24 AM
The first rebalanced version is finally out!

This is my first attempt at tweaking the classes and bosses, so hopefully I didn't mess everything up too badly. Let's see if Class Saxton Hale is less horrible now.

You'll need to download two files again, but the good news is that you won't have to download the entire massive Saxton Hale file again. (The original Saxton Hale Overhaul file serves as the base.)

I've put up a server running the rebalanced version now. Feel free to drop by and see whether or not my efforts made a difference.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale
Post by: JoshAdams88 on August 16, 2013, 05:21:57 AM
Well, looks like no one will be playing any sort of gamemode that actually requires effort for a while.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale
Post by: Linnie on August 16, 2013, 04:46:42 PM
I see the Hales are doing a lot better now. This is a good update.

EDIT: I think Wind Man was nerfed a little too hard. You can't attack if you want to be able to fly, and considering his attacks aren't very good and take up a lot of energy themselves, it really makes him useless. Perhaps you could lower the energy cost for his attacks to compensate?
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale
Post by: The Killer Nacho on August 17, 2013, 05:20:30 PM
Nerf the slide and dash and Classes Hale might actually be pretty good. I'm glad to see this rebalance makes it playable, but I sincerely hope you plan to balance further down the road.

EDIT: A nerf for Roll's altfire would also be appreciated. Yamatoman could use a slight speed buff, I'll keep adding more as I play. Diveman can use a nerf. Quickman's boost regeneration is a too fast and his overall speed could be made ever so slightly slower. Maybe to fix Windman, keep the bottom half of the bar's regeneration speed, but make his fly use a bit more weapon energy. Needleman desperately needs either a speed buff or a faster pick up on his cannon. Maybe a slight weapon energy nerf for Turboman. Some say Slash Dash refills a tad too quickly.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale
Post by: MrL1193 on August 31, 2013, 08:17:48 AM
So...I made a second Rebalanced version, as requested. I think I was able to address most of the concerns raised.

Since people seem to want map packs now, I put up two servers this time--one with map packs and one with normal maps only. Either way, if you try out version 2, let me know what you think.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v2)
Post by: andylucho on September 14, 2013, 02:01:46 AM
Is there a way to combine the hales as part of the classes mod, so they can be playable alongside the players?
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v2)
Post by: ZeStopper on September 14, 2013, 02:31:55 AM
Wrong thread, OtakuAlex has a mod for that.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v2)
Post by: The Killer Nacho on September 14, 2013, 10:42:22 PM
If there's one thing I'd like to have altered, it's Drillman. People are camping with his alt far too easily.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v2)
Post by: Linnie on September 16, 2013, 11:55:08 AM
The Killer Nacho, be careful when you say that. Drillman already has his recovery time nerfed to the point that you can't just drill away from the Hale easily (even though that was really fun back in the day, though I realize it needed to be changed), and if you nerf a class's defining trait too much you get a class that's been made useless and becomes the bane of your existence when you get it on random, like Windman and Dustman.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v2)
Post by: The Killer Nacho on September 17, 2013, 10:15:51 PM
My main issue is the fact that Drillman has noclip and can evade the Hale with this easily. By the time the Hale superjumps up, Drillman has run away, leaving the rest of the players to die. I wouldn't have a problem with it if there was a reason to use the alt besides drilling away from the Hale. If there is, I'm not aware of it at the moment.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v2)
Post by: Linnie on September 17, 2013, 10:54:39 PM
It's a really quick shortcut to get from point A to point B. On some maps you can take a huge bound from place to place -- my favorite place to be Drillman is Knightman's stage because of all the high ledges.

Now, think about what would happen if they nerfed his alt to be near unuseable. Drillman would only have his mainfire, which is pretty much just a not-that-effective cookie-cutter ripper projectile.


He'd be no better than Windman, who can't fly (unless you want to never attack again), or Dustman (who just has a weak projectile attack that doesn't even recharge like Junkman; to be fair he wasn't that good in the first place except for griefing, though).
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v2)
Post by: MrL1193 on September 19, 2013, 09:56:05 AM
The whole point of Drill Man's alt fire in this mode is to allow him to escape. It's far from foolproof, though, as he can still be caught while diving into the ground, and his recovery time for using it has already been lengthened once. I know he can be a bit of a pain on maps like MM7SLA, but I'm a bit hesitant to nerf him further, since his mobility without digging is already sub-par.

In the meantime, you'll be happy to hear that I finally sat down and figured out how to give the last survivor different runes (or other things) based on class. Now I just have to figure what each of the 60+ classes should get...
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v2)
Post by: ZeStopper on September 19, 2013, 03:11:39 PM
Uh, seeing as how people are playing MMU classes with Hale, do you plan on making them compatible?
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v2)
Post by: Chme on September 19, 2013, 03:25:27 PM
Yeah, I don't think that I will surprise anyone if I say that Jetman needs a fly nerf.
The Rainbow flash is also terribly broken (need a length nerf ?), and Trinitroman deals perhaps too much damages.
For the mysterious character, the problems are pretty obvious...
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v2)
Post by: FTX6004 on September 19, 2013, 03:31:10 PM
MMU Classes would be compatible in next version cause they are broken.
Title: The problems with mysteriouscharacter aren't obvious :/
Post by: Gummywormz on September 19, 2013, 10:44:44 PM
While I won't stop anyone from making a patch for compatibility, I will discourage it. I do ask that I be the one that rebalances / updates the classes though, so stick your feedback in the MMU classes topic. I probably won't touch it for a while, seeing as LMSGames got revived this week so I need to tend to that again.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v2)
Post by: MrL1193 on September 19, 2013, 10:50:03 PM
To be honest, I've never played the MMU classes (or MMX classes...or any class-based mode other than YD's and KY's, really). And considering the fact that I've had far less time to work on this since fall semester started, I don't really want to take on additional compatibility/balancing projects when I'm not at all familiar with them to begin with. Maybe at some point down the road (if Class Saxton Hale doesn't die off first and there aren't more pressing issues, like MM8 classes), but I'm not the one to work on it at the moment.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v2)
Post by: ServantofCygnus on September 20, 2013, 11:46:24 PM
I love how it says "Dash recharge nerfed somewhat" when I can easily tell that you not only nerfed his overall speed, but this is nowhere near a "somewhat" nerf; HIS AMMO TAKES LIKE FOUR TIMES AS LONG TO RECHARGE.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v2)
Post by: MrL1193 on September 21, 2013, 07:37:42 AM
Quote from: "ServantofCygnus"
I love how it says "Dash recharge nerfed somewhat" when I can easily tell that you not only nerfed his overall speed, but this is nowhere near a "somewhat" nerf; HIS AMMO TAKES LIKE FOUR TIMES AS LONG TO RECHARGE.
It was "somewhat" nerfed compared to the previous rebalanced version, in which the recharge rate had already been slowed down considerably.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3)
Post by: MrL1193 on September 22, 2013, 06:52:18 AM
Well, I found a bit of spare time this weekend, so I got some things done. Version 3 is now out!

(I forgot to prepare a list of which classes get which runes; I'll try to post/edit it in soon. Sorry about that.)
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v2)
Post by: Metallix on September 23, 2013, 04:59:26 PM
Quote from: "ThePlayer"
Uh, seeing as how people are playing MMU classes with Hale, do you plan on making them compatible?

As far as I can see, this shouldn't even be hosted at all.

The classes aren't exactly playable with any gamemode right now. Seeing as Gummy isn't even working on it right now, I don't see a reason for patching something in if it's already broken.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3)
Post by: MrL1193 on September 23, 2013, 09:10:49 PM
Sorry about the delay. Here's a full list of the runes each class gets as the last survivor:

(click to show/hide)

I've added this list to the first post as well so it doesn't get lost.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3)
Post by: ZeStopper on September 24, 2013, 02:50:48 AM
Well that's interesting.
I look forward to seeing them in game.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3)
Post by: Chme on September 25, 2013, 10:32:08 PM
The Saxton hale fix is no longer on best-ever...
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3)
Post by: MrL1193 on September 26, 2013, 12:15:34 AM
Sigh...It seems that Best Ever suddenly decided to impose a 45-character limit on file names and deleted all the ones with longer names.

I've reuploaded the file with the name "balrogsh-overhaul(finalfix)-ydclasses-v3.pk3 (http://static.best-ever.org/wads/balrogsh-overhaul%28finalfix%29-ydclasses-v3.pk3)." The server's file name hasn't changed yet, though, so if you want to join it now, you'll need to change the file name to match the one the server is using--and then change it back when the server eventually restarts using the new file name. x_x (Because downloading the file again with the new name would just be a waste of space...)

Sorry about the inconvenience...
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3)
Post by: The Killer Nacho on September 28, 2013, 03:20:48 PM
Alright, I could tolerate Brightman when it was just CucaMorais, but when Brightman becomes a bandwagon subject, it's a truly obnoxious sight to behold.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3)
Post by: Linnie on September 28, 2013, 05:58:41 PM
[REDACTED because I realized it had nothing to do with you]

On the other hand, you finally fixed Windman!
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3)
Post by: Superjustinbros on September 28, 2013, 09:06:02 PM
Since this seems to be the most dominant Saxton Hale thread, I guess I could just post this here:

Aside from the "no more triple shot when the last survivor" crud is Cave Johnson's "lemons" not looking like actual lemons. They resemble more of something along the lines of "Acidic Combustable Lemon-Flavored Jello" because they're not 100% solid and inflict a stun on anyone that gets hit (hence the Acid part).
I could sprite a replacement graphic that makes them look more like solid lemons rather than gumdrops that spin around on a Y axis in the direction shot.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3b)
Post by: Superjustinbros on November 19, 2013, 06:59:54 PM
I know, double post and bump. But I have this to share.

If one knows how to take advantage of Woodman with Morshu as a hale, timing uses of Leaf Shield right, he can practically avoid every bomb Morshu flings at him, emerging without a scratch.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3b)
Post by: Stardust on November 19, 2013, 07:58:55 PM
Easy as pie. That's like fighting a Skull Man with Morshu. You can keep the bomb with you some time before it explodes, so just wait until the shield runs off to throw it.
If your normalfire is ready and your opponent's shield is too, get closer to your opponent to reduce the distance between Morshu and the shield user, so you can reduce your opponent's reaction time.
When enough close, takes the bomb on your head. If he uses the shield, just wait until he runs out and fire. If he doesn't, just get enough close and shoot at him so he has no time to use the shield.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3b)
Post by: Superjustinbros on November 19, 2013, 09:54:06 PM
If I remember, Woodman can hold up Leaf Shield longer than Morshu can hold a Bomb on his head. And it recharges quite quickly.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3b)
Post by: Korby on November 19, 2013, 09:56:52 PM
If the Woodman can reliably block every single shot the Hale has to offer through skill and skill alone, then he deserves to not die.

You make it sound like that the Hale, who is already hugely powerful, should not have anyone who's good against him.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3b)
Post by: Linnie on November 20, 2013, 02:52:27 AM
Quote from: "Korby"
If the Woodman can reliably block every single shot the Hale has to offer through skill and skill alone, then he deserves to not die.

You make it sound like that the Hale, who is already hugely powerful, should not have anyone who's good against him.
In fairness, the Hale tends to lose the majority of games to the survivor.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3b)
Post by: OtakuAlex on November 25, 2013, 09:32:07 PM
Ironically, there's many classes that need nerffing, but the one that I would never think needed nerffing got a nerf.

Bubble Man.....The fact that his floating-energy/ammo runs out faster takes a lot of the fun out of his item and doesn't serve much purpose in helping the hales win when they can easily OHKO him as soon as it runs out no matter what.

Also, I think nerffing the survivors might not be the best solution, it's hard to nerf classes to how they should be, instead you should buff the bosses that are having trouble winning.

Those are just my thoughts on this though, you're the one who runs this show, so you can do whatever you want.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3b)
Post by: MrL1193 on November 27, 2013, 06:18:24 AM
I haven't had much time to work on this lately, but I should have more time around Christmas. I do still have a few ideas I'd like to try out if possible, such as multiple boss difficulty levels.

Regarding the shield classes, you should note that Morshu actually can wait out their barriers at any time if he's desperate enough. If Morshu holds a bomb until it explodes on him, the cool down phase of his attack is bypassed and he can pull out another bomb immediately. I can't tell you how many times I've seen Skull Men get killed this way. Bubble Man has to have nerfed swimming because his normal swimming ability is game-breaking on maps with large underwater areas; it's not a perfect solution, but it's pretty much the best I can do for him, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3b)
Post by: Linnie on November 27, 2013, 06:54:39 AM
Quote from: "MrL1193"
If Morshu holds a bomb until it explodes on him, the cool down phase of his attack is bypassed and he can pull out another bomb immediately.
Wait what? I didn't know that, thank you for telling me that.


MrL, I have to ask, are any Hale edits from Tails's version considered to be added to this version, with balance edits for classes of course?
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3b)
Post by: coolcat7022 on November 27, 2013, 07:46:02 AM
Quote from: "Linnie"
Quote from: "MrL1193"
If Morshu holds a bomb until it explodes on him, the cool down phase of his attack is bypassed and he can pull out another bomb immediately.
Wait what? I didn't know that, thank you for telling me that.


MrL, I have to ask, are any Hale edits from Tails's version considered to be added to this version, with balance edits for classes of course?
The more you know! XD
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3b)
Post by: MrL1193 on November 28, 2013, 09:40:51 AM
Quote from: "Linnie"
MrL, I have to ask, are any Hale edits from Tails's version considered to be added to this version, with balance edits for classes of course?
Tails never liked the idea of adding YD's classes back to that version, so I figured copying material from it wouldn't be the best idea either. (Gilgamesh is an odd case; I believe he originated from Balrog's last version of Saxton Hale and was coded by someone else. He was only tweaked for Rebirth, and I personally would like to switch him over to the random-sword move set and make a few tweaks of my own, but I'm still a little uneasy about borrowing the material.)

In the mean time, I did manage to come up with a simple structure for handling multiple difficulty levels. Now it's just a matter of figuring out what do with each boss for each difficulty. I'm aiming to have 4 difficulty levels--the current setting, one easier, and two harder, with the difficulty changing depending on how the last few matches have gone. (I currently have it set to change after 3 consecutive wins or losses.) I probably won't be able to do anything too complex with the bosses, but if you have some ideas you feel would be interesting, by all means, mention them here.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3b)
Post by: Goomba98 on December 10, 2013, 02:32:55 PM
I hope you do something about Yamato Man's alt, it's incredibly OP, especially against Morshu.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3b)
Post by: OtakuAlex on December 10, 2013, 07:14:38 PM
Quote from: "Goomba98"
I hope you do something about Yamato Man's alt, it's incredibly OP, especially against Morshu.

Morshu is actually one of the hales that is pretty good against Yamato since he has ranged attacks and can stop the problem before it begins. Besides, Yamato's alt is only a weapon of mass destruction if you can dodge the hale's attacks well enough.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v3b)
Post by: Superjustinbros on December 10, 2013, 08:39:33 PM
Say Mr. L, ever heard of the mappack "AMP-MP"? It's a good candidate for a mappack to replace CSCM, since I still despise pretty much every of the "Remixed" maps.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4)
Post by: MrL1193 on December 19, 2013, 07:25:37 AM
All right, I finally managed to upload a new version with added difficulty levels. Try it out and let me know what you think; this is only my first attempt, so feedback (particularly on individual bosses) is key. The difficulty is set to go up or down one level after 3 consecutive wins or losses.

For the whole long list of changes, see the spoiler in the first post. Aside from the difficulty changes, here's the (rather short) list of other things that were changed:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4)
Post by: Linnie on December 20, 2013, 10:06:09 PM
Hey, MrL, I've been following a conversation that I personally agree with, and some people say you should remove A_STOP from the Hales to get rid of hitstun.

Do you have any thoughts on that? I think it's a great idea to quicken the pace of matches and keep the Hale from getting stuck in place when they get hit by a weapon like Fireman's alt.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4)
Post by: Stardust on December 20, 2013, 10:22:34 PM
I'm asking this question here because your mod is extremely popular as you merged the two most famous mods,
Are you still going to make a comptability for a Saxton Hale version, even if the developper doesn't allow you to ? In other words, will you overpass and not respect a mod that doesn't want a class comptability ?
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4)
Post by: MrL1193 on December 20, 2013, 11:08:29 PM
Quote from: "Linnie"
Hey, MrL, I've been following a conversation that I personally agree with, and some people say you should remove A_STOP from the Hales to get rid of hitstun.

Do you have any thoughts on that? I think it's a great idea to quicken the pace of matches and keep the Hale from getting stuck in place when they get hit by a weapon like Fireman's alt.
Well, Gilgamesh and the Cave Story duo already use A_ScaleVelocity instead of A_Stop. (In fact, Gilgamesh doesn't even use that on Hard/Expert, and only suffers hit stun from SparkShock-type damage.) The problem with using that idea for all the bosses is that it would throw the weapon balance out of whack. As things are now, weak attacks that score multiple hits are useful for repulsing the boss but have the disadvantage of building up rage faster, while the powerful single-hit attacks deal damage with less rage buildup but don't push the boss back very much. Eliminating hit stun would render the former category of weapons all but worthless. (This is also why I've decided I don't like the idea used in Rebirth of linking rage buildup to damage rather than number of hits--it pushes the weapon balance to the other extreme by eliminating all reason not to use the weak multi-hit weapons. Not that I feel I can really copy that code with a free conscience anyway, as I'm about to explain...)

Quote from: "Stardust"
I'm asking this question here because your mod is extremely popular as you merged the two most famous mods,
Are you still going to make a comptability for a Saxton Hale version, even if the developper doesn't allow you to ? In other words, will you overpass and not respect a mod that doesn't want a class comptability ?
I've already refrained from attempting to make Rebirth compatible with classes for that very reason. When I first mentioned to Tails that I was trying to revive Class Saxton Hale using his Overhaul version, he said he wouldn't stop me from doing it. But when he released Rebirth, he specifically asked that I not add classes compatibility. That's why I didn't try to use any of the new boss changes from that version (even though I really would have liked to add Star Man's meteor main fire).



Oh, and since someone asked me about the CVars I added, I probably should explain the controls here.

"sax_boss" controls which boss is chosen next. If you know the number that corresponds to each boss, you can set sax_boss to the appropriate number to ensure that you'll see that boss. You can even pick the same boss consecutively if you want, but there still must be at least 4 players present in order for duo bosses to be chosen. Also, if you really want to, you can also choose Slender Man if there are at least 4 players (his number is 13), but he doesn't change with the difficulty level. This variable will always reset to 0 as soon as a boss is picked at the start of the round, ensuring a return to random selections (which exclude Slender Man).

"sax_difficulty" controls the difficulty level (of course). It is set to 0 by default, which causes the difficulty to adjust up or down whenever there are three consecutive wins or losses to the boss. If you set it to numbers 1-4, you can set the difficulty in the next round to the corresponding level, after which it will return to 0 and automatic adjusting. If you want to set the difficulty to one level permanently, use numbers 11-14. And finally, if you set sax_difficulty to 10, the difficulty will be random each round.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4)
Post by: Linnie on December 21, 2013, 01:12:45 AM
Have you considered nerfing the flash attacks (Brightman and Centaurman's alts)?

From what I understand that's the biggest gripe Stardust has with Classes.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4)
Post by: Stardust on December 21, 2013, 09:24:22 AM
Okay, thanks for answering

Oh and yes, like Linnie said, I thought the flashing should be nerfed, like for instance so that several Bright Man are needed to turn the hale's screen 100% white-opaque (but that's just a proposition of nerf, we could also reduce the ammo charging rate of Bright's ALT)
The reason behind that, is, think about it : Bright Man is ALWAYS the first opponent the hale is looking to kill first, because his annoying factor is bigger than anything. The screen is completly flashed every 3 seconds, leaving the other opponents free to rape. In addition to this servers often have DoubleAmmo on, so yeah... it's not that hard to flash the hale. And since they're mostly melee hales, Bright Man just needs to throw his bulb to the floor to do the "ninja escape effect", like throwing a ball of smoke and running away when the ennemy is blind
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4)
Post by: Superjustinbros on December 23, 2013, 11:54:58 PM
Has anyone out there tried fixing the bug where if a Hale/transformed character goes underwater, they gain gravity instead of losing it?
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4b)
Post by: MrL1193 on December 24, 2013, 04:15:36 AM
Quote from: "Stardust"
Okay, thanks for answering

Oh and yes, like Linnie said, I thought the flashing should be nerfed, like for instance so that several Bright Man are needed to turn the hale's screen 100% white-opaque (but that's just a proposition of nerf, we could also reduce the ammo charging rate of Bright's ALT)
The reason behind that, is, think about it : Bright Man is ALWAYS the first opponent the hale is looking to kill first, because his annoying factor is bigger than anything. The screen is completly flashed every 3 seconds, leaving the other opponents free to rape. In addition to this servers often have DoubleAmmo on, so yeah... it's not that hard to flash the hale. And since they're mostly melee hales, Bright Man just needs to throw his bulb to the floor to do the "ninja escape effect", like throwing a ball of smoke and running away when the ennemy is blind
There have been a few complaints about Bright Man in the past, but at the time, it seemed like the more experienced players generally felt that he was fine (and indeed, those players were perfectly capable of beating him). Bright Man's play style in Saxton Hale is pretty much is all about crippling the boss with blinding and slowing to give other players a better opportunity to attack. He's unique in that he's more focused on that aspect than other classes with crippling moves (such as Time Man and Centaur Man), and I don't want to take that focus away. As for fighting Bright Man one-on-one, he can be annoying to catch at times, but his attacks are fairly weak, and since blinding the boss does not make you invincible, it's far from foolproof at close range (which is the only time you can be absolutely certain of hitting the boss). I don't really find the blinding to be more effective in these situations than simply using a high-jumping or flying class to get to higher ground (which usually forces the boss to super jump after you, keeping you out of reach for a fair bit of time while the boss flies up far past the ledge). If a nerf is really necessary, I would be more inclined to reduce Bright Man's speed to keep him in a "vulnerable (but still effective) support class" role, but my natural inclination is against it.

Quote from: "Superjustinbros"
Has anyone out there tried fixing the bug where if a Hale/transformed character goes underwater, they gain gravity instead of losing it?

I've never heard of it happening exactly that way, but I did try to fix the boss gravity on completely underwater core maps once before. It didn't work, unfortunately...



In the meantime, I made a quick update in response to feedback on the new difficulties.

(click to show/hide)

Also, SKZ/Jolt said that he wouldn't mind if I used his boss weapons from Rebirth, so I'll see if I can do something with those. Tails apparently is still against the idea of classes, though, so I'm still not able to borrow just anything I want from Rebirth.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4b)
Post by: ServantofCygnus on December 24, 2013, 07:39:56 AM
I still hate you all for doing that to Quickman. I loved him.he was my bby
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4b)
Post by: Linnie on December 25, 2013, 03:50:54 AM
Well, maybe that will just be something special for Hale++ classes when they're made. I'm really pushing to nerf Brightman because flashing classes are the reason Stardust doesn't want Classes in her mode when it comes out.

None of the current Hale makers want Classes in their modes even as an alternative.


It depresses me and I don't know what to say to convince them otherwise.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4b)
Post by: Orange juice :l on December 25, 2013, 04:26:10 AM
Why not make your own version, then? All the cool kids are doing it.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4b)
Post by: Hallan Parva on December 25, 2013, 04:59:57 AM
I normally stay as far away from Hale topics as possible but I just had to stop by and say OJ wins.


If someone's putting forth the time and effort to create a game mode they truly believe in and enjoy playing the way they designed it, what right do you have to try and force classes up its metaphorical bumhole? It's not an alternative, because once classes get shoved where the sun don't shine, they stay there for good, like the playerbase who occupies their servers. There are more Hale variants than there should be any good reason for, and if one particular version doesn't want classes to be included, then deal with it and go play something else.

Personally I applaud Tails' efforts for revamping the entire "Hale formula" and creating an interesting take on the idea compared to the swarm of clones and imitations, and I completely agree with the decision to build the mode as "no classes allowed" in order to keep things sane and balanced for both sides.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4b)
Post by: MrL1193 on December 26, 2013, 11:54:13 AM
Re: Bright Man.

I spent some time testing Bright Man for myself by playing as him. The results were...not spectacular. Did I succeed in annoying the bosses? Absolutely; the players were often very glad to be rid of me. But did I effortlessly thwart every attempt by a boss to close in on me, single-handedly winning each battle? Not even close. The simple fact is, even with the ability to spam Flash Bulbs, Bright Man cannot expect to endlessly stall the boss. Blinding the boss does not guarantee your safety; several times, I got killed right after scoring a direct Flash Bulb hit on the boss. There's also the matter of actually hitting the boss with the Flash Bulb; like I said, your accuracy can only be guaranteed at very close range, and that range is also where the boss might manage to kill you anyway even while blinded. If Bright Man is guilty of anything, it is only of slowing the pace of the game when he is forced to fight the boss alone (which several other classes can do much better anyway, but that's a problem for another discussion). His constant Flash Bulbs can make him more difficult to catch, but since he only does scratch damage with them, he's not likely to beat the boss unassisted.

By the way, during my testing, I did at one point actually ask the players in the server what they thought about Bright Man. Their opinions more or less matched my observations; I didn't notice anyone coming forward to say they thought he was too good.

I didn't ask about or test Centaur Man, but I hardly see how his blinding ability could be a problem, considering how slow it is to recharge compared to Bright Man's. It even conflicts with his teleporting, since that requires full ammo to use.

Quote from: "SmashBroPlusB"
Personally I applaud Tails' efforts for revamping the entire "Hale formula" and creating an interesting take on the idea compared to the swarm of clones and imitations, and I completely agree with the decision to build the mode as "no classes allowed" in order to keep things sane and balanced for both sides.

I should point out that since SKZ/Jolt is already allowing me to use his weapons, the only things I really wanted Tails's permission to use were the pre-colored boss sprites, solely to eliminate the boss colors glitch. It has nothing to do with stealing Rebirth's "revamped gameplay" at all. (As far as that is concerned, I've already explained why I don't like the rage system used there, and the other main change, the boss speed scaling, apparently was Jax's work.) Tails withheld permission, but since I haven't talked to him directly about it, I can't be certain he understood that I only wanted those sprites. For several reasons, I hope his refusal was only because of misunderstanding...



I've never really been one to create entirely new content...This whole time, I've only been trying to improve an existing mod combo that I liked, weeding out what flaws I could fix and generally polishing it. Some might say that I've been polishing garbage. That's fine; no one's forcing you to like it. But if other people find that they do like the "garbage" once I've polished it, is that really a bad thing? Is it so wrong to seek to improve something without trying to totally alter the (somehow) successful formula that is already present?
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4b)
Post by: Stardust on December 26, 2013, 01:02:59 PM
We miss using skins D:

Rebalanced being often hosted with doubleammo (= double bulb charge),  I rarely (never ?) saw a player using anything else but Bright's ALT and Item, through not everybody knows his buster deals 15 damage/shot ! Which is pretty strong. What I mean is that they simply only uses bulbs, and obviously if they ONLY do that, it means the bulb must be really effective on the hale O_o
Then even as a Bright Man, you should still keep your little distance. Some people just want to flash so hard, that they chase the hale's ass and when the hale turns back, Bright is fucked. But that's not a good strategy (some Quick Men also do that : thinking they're 2fast4thehale, they do a barrage of boomerangs behind the hale, thinking they could get away at anytime-- but that's wrong lol.) So, if you keep a medium range distance, you should have like 50-60% of chance of actually hitting the hale with the bulb, and should be enough safe by fleeing.
I guess Centaur Man is okay, as more players seem to enjoy using his normalfire because weeeeee, lots of missiles.

Also SmashBros that's the first time I see you so serious :I

Off-flashing topic, you shouldn't have find colorated skins for the color glitch, Otaku found a wayyyy simpler method for fixing this ._.
You simply add a line of code in the ready state,
SXH1 A 0 ACS_ExecuteAlways(991,0,500)
this for instance fixes the color glitch for Saxton Hale (500 is SH's color scheme)
tadaaaaa
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4b)
Post by: Linnie on December 26, 2013, 08:26:56 PM
Quote from: "Orange juice :l"
Why not make your own version, then? All the cool kids are doing it.
Well, that's my biggest issue with Hale: there are too many versions of it in my opinion. Rebalanced, Rebirth, Hyper, ++, Lego's, and even if it technically isn't Hale I count Unholy, though that's on the fence due to it being so different.

I'd much rather see efforts be unified, create fewer Hale modes and combine them while polishing them, so that we get one or two superb mods rather than five or six mods of varying quality. Unholy is obviously excluded from this hypothetical merging due to it not wanting anything to do with Hale.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4)
Post by: TailsMK4 on December 26, 2013, 11:05:52 PM
Logged in just to talk to MrL directly, but do not expect much activity from me on here.

Quote from: "MrL1193"
I've already refrained from attempting to make Rebirth compatible with classes for that very reason. When I first mentioned to Tails that I was trying to revive Class Saxton Hale using his Overhaul version, he said he wouldn't stop me from doing it. But when he released Rebirth, he specifically asked that I not add classes compatibility. That's why I didn't try to use any of the new boss changes from that version (even though I really would have liked to add Star Man's meteor main fire).


Nothing personal MrL, it's just I predicted something like this would have happened if Saxton and Classes got combined together. It's actually the reason I've officially left the game (only here now because of the new Saxton mods), because my attempts to get people to do other things besides that combo failed.


Quote from: "MrL1193"
I should point out that since SKZ/Jolt is already allowing me to use his weapons, the only things I really wanted Tails's permission to use were the pre-colored boss sprites, solely to eliminate the boss colors glitch. It has nothing to do with stealing Rebirth's "revamped gameplay" at all. (As far as that is concerned, I've already explained why I don't like the rage system used there, and the other main change, the boss speed scaling, apparently was Jax's work.) Tails withheld permission, but since I haven't talked to him directly about it, I can't be certain he understood that I only wanted those sprites. For several reasons, I hope his refusal was only because of misunderstanding...


And I'm not sure where this view that I wasn't going to allow you to use the skins to fix your color issue came from. I thought I heard you say some time ago when I was thinking of doing the idea that you were also going to try it, so I thought you already made them. I'm just going to say this to end any further doubt of this: the recolored skins are free to be used in any Saxton Hale mod to resolve the color issues. They are really just edits of the original skins. I would like to ask that you give Smash/Gizmo credit for the recolored skins since he did the majority of the work, and apparently also revised a few of the skins. Also as far as Jolt's weapons go, although I did not directly tell him, my response to him sharing his work kind of implied that I was ok with this.

I really just want other mods to be played more often than just this combo, but I gave up on that a long time ago. I tried Mafia, Rage Roboenza, Bot Apoc...nothing worked. It's not really your fault for this whole mess, Mr.L, but rather I think the community does not want anything else. I'm just saying that I have my reasons to be stone cold set on a certain side of the issue. I hope you understand that. This is nothing against you at all. If this had been a personal project of yours that did not involve classes at all, I would have backed you 100% in giving out the coding for Rebirth.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4b)
Post by: Stardust on December 28, 2013, 08:47:39 PM
I've been thinking about something, are you going to create a "Megaman" class, which is exactly like the vanilla Megaman, for the players who don't like classes ? (the Megaman class would be turned into Megaman-C ~ Linnie)
The Megaman class "like the vanilla", unlike the class one, could change of skin, can't slide, and has normal armor. Using skins may encourage people to use the vanilla Megaman :)
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4b)
Post by: Linnie on December 28, 2013, 08:52:05 PM
Yes, this, you could probably just rename the Rockman class "Megaman" so it could use skins and name the new Megaman class something else.
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4b)
Post by: Emmanuelf06 on December 29, 2013, 06:25:26 AM
Rockman Class has no armor too, right ? i mean low armor...?
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4b)
Post by: Linnie on January 03, 2014, 04:46:42 PM
MrL, Stardust and Otaku are, as planned, working on merging their mods.

But, they want to call it just "Saxton Hale" as if it's the main mod.

I'm trying to argue against that because your mod exists, but what do you think of them doing that? Would you be okay with it or would you feel it's a little insulting to disregard you like that?
Title: Re: Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4b)
Post by: Jakeinator on January 03, 2014, 08:03:25 PM
If you guys are going to do it, fine, just don't call it "Saxton Hale" because its not the first mod nor is it the main Saxton hale mod. And don't give me none of that we can do what we want shit because there's already a mod just called Saxton Hale.