Cutstuff Forum
General => Anything Goes => Topic started by: MusashiAA on September 06, 2013, 07:23:59 AM
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Anything Goes
Talk about anything. Keep it clean and don't post pointless crap. Topics without any hope of becoming a relatively sane discussion will be locked/deleted.
I'll start off this rant with that, just so it doesn't fly over your head.
This is going to be a rant about why I don't like the Saxton Hale modifications in MM8BDM: not an specific deviation, just the general kind of Saxton Hale mods that are apparently wildly popular nowadays. We all know how the story's going: most active servers are those that host a Saxton Hale variation, or a mixture of Saxton Hale with another less popular modification, MM8BDM is doomed, ban Saxton Hale but not really because that's mean, cabbage. Ok.
I guess I'm forcing myself to tackle some things before going straight into saying why I don't like the mod, such as how the community, specially the veteran players, perceives it. It usually goes like this: "it's overplayed, and it's hogging the player base". To make it simple, that is a matter of how MM8BDM servers are moderated. Not in the sense of bans and kicks and whatnot, but rather how they're hosted and set in the playability sense, but that's another story. What I want to focus on is to why Saxton Hale is seen by some as bad, and try to give my own thoughts regarding that.
To begin with, Saxton Hale breaks the game's context. Mega Man 8-bit Deathmatch is a Zandronum engine modification of a NES Capcom series called "Mega Man". Not only dowe have Doom 2's gameplay mechanics, lore and characters to meddle with, but also can introduce NES-styled, Capcom's and Mega Man's gameplay mechanics, lore and characters. Saxton Hale is a Source engine modification of a Valve game called "Team Fortress 2". It has its own context: namely theming, gameplay mechanics and characters. Shoehorning one into the other inevitably clashes for the worst. It makes no more sense than "it's Saxton Hale on MM8BDM". Ghouls vs Humans NES fits, YDClasses fits, Contramod fits, Mission Mode fits: Saxton Hale does not, and didn't try to.
On another note, the criteria used for choosing characters, attacks, game mechanics and what not is wild territory. Translating characters like Saxton Hale, Ninja Spy, Slenderman or Cave Johnson into MM8BDM, or introducing gimmicks like teleportation and 1HKO melee attacks on a projectile-intended game, based mostly off internet pop culture, community gloating and pandering is bland, uncreative and irrelevant to the purpose of making coherent game design choices and for balancing. Saxtom Hale? Why not Mike Haggar? Ninja Spy? Why not Strider Hiryu? Slenderman? Why not Pyramid Head? All Capcom characters, some were on the NES: no need to break the game's context.
Next up is my main grind about it: Saxton Hale, the literal totality of the game mode, doesn't blend well with MM8BDM's gameplay. On the original mod, you're playing on a more advanced physics engine, and through a balanced class-based team gameplay. You can pick the kind of weapon you want (with its pros and cons), you can choose to attack/support, and the boss player has to deal with a variety of enemies. On the MM8BDM port, you're playing on an engine that is limited in lots of ways when compared to Source, and through a deathmatch free4all-conceived gameplay. All players get the same set of randomized weapons and share the same stats, you're forced to attack because the weapons were conceived for deathmatch, and the boss player just fights the same enemy numerous times. Mixing Saxton Hale with class mods just somewhat fills this gap, but it'll never fix it as it is a structural flaw of mixing two wildly different games.
The main concept of Saxton Hale is that a random player becomes a superboss (Terminator cough cough): he gains a lot of health and a very powerful attack. The rest of the players have to team up to defeat him. Many new things could be introduced with this exact concept. The current state of Saxton Hale mods just forces the TF2 mod into MM8BDM without much regard. Lego's attempt at making a Mega Man-themed superboss mode is precisely the direction Saxton Hale mods should've taken from the start. The problem is, as I mentioned above, it will not be the same as Saxton Hale without the class aspect of it, so it has to introduce a teamwork element to encourage players to protect or help their combat buddies; otherwise, it'll practically be "you vs that one guy" instead of "us vs that one guy".
So yeah, I guess that's it.
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I was thinking of making a Gutsman Z mode before this mod showed up and kinda did the same thing. One player would become Gutsman Z and throw people around and the other players would have to team up to take him down. Obviously no one would even consider playing it now as saxton has lots of different things and has become the standard for the terminator styled gameplay.
I said it before in another thread but we can't stop people playing what they find fun, it's not right. The only way to get people to play something else is to make something new/better and exciting. People like game modes where you get put in the spotlight a lot, like saxton. That may be a good place to start.
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*clap* *clap* *clap*
Thank you so much, MusashiAA.
I'm one of the few people who stays away from the foul presence known as "Saxton Hale" as much as possible.
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Wait a minute, Gutsman Z? Where have I heard that before?
I decided to try the chaos generator 2 B in 1 player mode, I now have even more reason to hate roll, in DW1 I gotten jelly world, double damage and gutsman G, lets just say NOONE was getting away from him, the bouncing gave him jumping abilities, even if you goten to higher ground, he will find you, then I was in the hard knuckle corner, he started comeing at me then he suddenly warpes right before hiting me, only to have him attack me from the side...holy crap he has dragon ball Z powers! Gutsman Z anyone?
There we go.
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I was thinking of making a Gutsman Z mode before this mod showed up and kinda did the same thing. One player would become Gutsman Z and throw people around and the other players would have to team up to take him down. Obviously no one would even consider playing it now as saxton has lots of different things and has become the standard for the terminator styled gameplay.
I said it before in another thread but we can't stop people playing what they find fun, it's not right. The only way to get people to play something else is to make something new/better and exciting. People like game modes where you get put in the spotlight a lot, like saxton. That may be a good place to start.
i would play it, or try it at least.
THANKS! Someone else who hates sh!
first the servers:
SAXTON HALE! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][ ][][][][][]
RP(after an hour on) [][][][][]
OC [][][][][][][][][][][]
RCG[]
then the actual game:
usually its just one last person running around for an hour while everyone else is dead. they don't care about attacks, they just run around.
the class paring:
the two classes iv'e played it with just make it terrible.
NORMAL: Flyers and gravityman cant be touched
MMX: OK i could just say one word about this: HADOUKEN!!!, but ill go into more detail. all you have to do is get a mmx army to fire hadoukens, they kill the boss in one hit, and you win.
I would play it if:
gutsman z (if no OHKOs)
the actual bosses from story (with a slight HP buff)
Actually felt like a boss battle instead of a running spree
NO OHKO!!!
shortened time(5 max min)
they fix the bug with the recolors where they look like the normal one.
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Wait a minute, Gutsman Z? Where have I heard that before?
oh I meant G
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I believe I once said something about sticking to memorable (and worthy) characters within the NES/SNES/N64/Genesis/whatever, or from Nintendo, Sega, Capcom.. uh, yeah, I don't know. (Not everything counts for sure, anyway.)
Bosses like Scrooge McDuck, M. Bison, Ghost of Starman, I know GoS is getting a rework soon enough. Or so I hope. Gilgamesh, he still needs a good rework otherwise probably not, Ra Thor, super adventure rockman so unknown and an exception that is Quote and Curly, are good bosses that match up with that.
Bosses like Slenderman, Morshu, and EVERY SINGLE VALVE RELATED HALE, are out of place.
Ra Thor is a really hard one to do something with. He never really made an appearance in any games-- What is he from, anyway?
Lego's "Saxton Hale" was cool and all, but you had 3 bosses that were essentially the same, and one of those three bosses is actually 5x better than the other ones.
Oh, and Saxton Hale is the dumbest name ever. Don't even THINK about Freak8BDM.
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Ra Thor is a really hard one to do something with. He never really made an appearance in any games-- What is he from, anyway?
Ra Thor (http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Ra_Thor) is from Super Adventure Rockman (http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Adventure_Rockman), a game that was never released outside of Japan and was even disowned by Keiji Inafune himself.
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Saxtom Hale? Why not Mike Haggar? Ninja Spy? Why not Strider Hiryu?
omfg I'd play this so hard
but yeah, Musashi you've actually done a great job of summarizing the main flaws of porting VSH over to 8BDM
so way to go guy
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Well one of the problems is some of the servers I'm looking at you deathwind servers! are running on an older version of Zandronum, which limits some of the options some people have. That an people aren't making an attempt to host other stuff, so we are pretty much stuck with the same stagnant game mode.
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Why don't we make a mod replacing the bosses with Mega Man minibosses instead? I think it'd be pretty awesome shooting people with TriCastle or something.
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A majority of minibosses are too big to fit in many stages, and even segments of large stages.
Even if you can fit a HUGE skin onto this sort of thing, the hitbox is inconcistent with everything that ever existed.
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Someone (Lego, Megaman or whoever) should update GvH NES.
It would kill Saxton Hale much like the original GvH killed SkullTag.
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Yeah it must be the only thing that can make people stop playing saxton hale, or they will add GVH TO SAXTON HALE. :mad:
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The only thing that'll kill Saxton Hale is active participation.
Try getting other people to join other servers with you and play other mods more often instead of sitting and complaining about it. You're not going to solve the problem by pointing and shouting "This mod is too popular! No one plays anything else!" without actually playing something else yourself.
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Try getting other people to join other servers with you and play other mods more often instead of sitting and complaining about it. You're not going to solve the problem by pointing and shouting "This mod is too popular! No one plays anything else!" without actually playing something else yourself.
Nothing like a dose of order and progress~
The problem is they don't listen. GG :(
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Sax is fun whateryoutalkingabout.
At least when playing with a silly class like Toadman, Hardman or Cloudman.
Although I think there should be more variety, I can't help but feel that most of the long-time members are just complaining too much over what is basically a matter of taste.
In other words: This thread is pointless and too much flamebait to be kept alive without the inevitable heated argument.
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I applaud Musashi for pretty accurately summing up most of the "anti-Saxton Hale" movement pretty clearly, which no one has really done until now.
I would add that, in addition to everything that Musashi mentioned, another, somewhat unrelated, consideration with Saxton Hale is that because it is so appealing, it has grown into a monstrous conglomeration of following, files, and versions, which makes it unappealing and messy in principle. Over 80 different files exist pertaining to Saxton Hale, which you can compare to around 40 files involving YD/Jaxof Classes.
The only thing that'll kill Saxton Hale is time.
Try getting other people to join other servers with you and play other mods more often instead of sitting and complaining about it. You're not going to solve the problem by pointing and shouting "This mod is too popular! No one plays anything else!" without actually playing something else yourself.
I want to point out that you've contradicted yourself here. I'm only pointing this out because it highlights an important consideration. You say that the mode will only depopularize with time, but then go on to say that being passive will not depopularize it. The former (that is, the argument for "time") is not the case. The latter, then, is; at least in part.
The key principle is that people will play what they think is 'fun'. CutmanMike has pointed that out on multiple occasions. It is important to note that defining 'fun' is a detailed process in and of itself, because obviously different kinds of people find different kinds of things 'fun' (compare Saxton Hale enthusiasts to those that... don't find it fun!) It follows then that, if people are to decrease their Saxton Hale time and increase their play time in other modes, one of the following must occur:
1) Offer them an alternative that is more 'fun'. This can be accomplished in two ways, because we know that most everyone's definition of 'fun' at least partly includes the participation of notable amounts of other people. So:
a) Make a new mode that appeals to people more than Saxton Hale.
b) Popularize existing modes by increasing participation; it has been observably shown that inputting some amount of participation will output even more participation. In other words, people often play modes that other people are playing.
2) Make Saxton Hale less 'fun'. This tends not to happen because if a mode becomes 'ruined' according to its player base, it is quickly mended; this is especially the case with Saxton Hale because there are so many people eager to upload their own version or fix, to contribute to the players' enjoyment of the mode.
Of course, these options assume lots of other variable remain constant, like overall player base demographics, etc. These are probably beyond the scope of this specific topic.
However, threads like this are only useful up to a certain point. I would say this is probably the last time anything worthy will come out of a topic like this, and that is only because Musashi was so clear in his explanations.
By this point, there are only a few potential reasons for why Saxton Hale is still so popular (one or more of the following):
1) The people who wish for it to change, cannot (don't have the right ideas *and/or* don't have the skills to create an alternative; or, do not have the time to change it).
1a) People who have the skills to change it, don't have the time or the right ideas. People with the rightideas don't have the time or the skills. People with the time do not have the skills or the right ideas.
2) The people who can change it, do not care to and/or do not wish to.
3) Saxton Hale is the pinnacle of enjoyment for its current playerbase (that is, the option of an alternative is removed).
4) Any number of psychological or personal reasons constraining one or more individuals not constrained by 1, 1a, and 2.
Notice that none of these are solved by 'waiting'. Even the 1, 1a, and 2, which refer to the "cycle" that many people refer to, do not get solved simply with time. They get solved when constrained people with the potential to bring about the change find either the time, the skills, or the right ideas.
EDIT: I suppose the "need more time" condition would be solved by waiting, but I think enough time has passed to give most everyone constrained by time a chance to act.
Also, note that no where did I mention forcing people to play something else. The hope for "anti-Saxtonists" should be that people wind up *wanting* to play something else.
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If SH is so played, it's because a lot of peoples like it, and it will be stupid to force them to play at something they like less.
I don't get the matter with SH: unlike jdude say, the non-bosses aren't just ran away, but always try to attack the Hale, and flyers can't fly longtime with the saxton rebalanced classes.
SH is different from the core 8BDM, but is still 8BDM, so stop this stupid Mod war !
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Yeah, I realized I contradicted my statement after looking at it 5 minutes after posting it. I was too lazy to edit.
I'd rather stick with my second statement instead of my first.
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This thread is pointless and too much flamebait to be kept alive without the inevitable heated argument.
If that's what you really thought, you wouldn't have voiced your thoughts like everybody else has so far, which is reason enough not to call it "flame bait" in the first place.
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If it hasn't degenerated into a flame war already, I doubt it will at all.
I go out of my way to avoid joining Saxton Hale servers. There are a number of things that drive me to avoid it, the most prominent being 99% of the time it's hosted with classes, and of course, the mod itself has 8,000 wads you need to download as far as I know. On the rare occasion I join, I see solely Quickman, Gyroman, Pharaohman, and Darkman3. It drives me nearly insane when I actually try to play so I just quit.
Lego's Saxton Hale Boss Rush is far superior to SilrogMK4's, if you ask me, despite having never once been updated. The mod does, however, suffer from underdone bosses and very few at that, which is on account of having never once been updated. Despite that, it's still far more fun and it encourages teamwork.
Despite all this, I'd be happy if more people played Roboenza Swarm or Bot Apocalypse or something without freaking classes for once. I try to start games in those servers but they usually see a peak of 7 or 8 players, and once one leaves, they start dropping like flies. Rarely worth the effort.
Whether or not you think the mod is fun, I don't care. I myself don't. You won't see me in any Saxton Hale servers for the foreseeable future, and I'll still try to get Roboenza Swarm and Bot Apocalypse games going.
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We can't stop people playing what they find fun, it's not right. The only way to get people to play something else is to make something new/better and exciting.
True that. That's why I centered my rant on explaining the flaws of Saxton Hale, and not why it shouldn't be played, because we're no one to say what should and should not be played. Some people like Roboenza because they find it fun and thrilling, some people like cheat servers because they enjoy them: we can't tell them they shouldn't have fun.
Bosses like Scrooge McDuck, M. Bison, Ghost of Starman, I know GoS is getting a rework soon enough. Or so I hope. Gilgamesh, he still needs a good rework otherwise probably not, Ra Thor, super adventure rockman so unknown and an exception that is Quote and Curly, are good bosses that match up with that.
In my opinion, only Ra Thor, Scrooge and Bison don't break the context of MM8BDM, but with some of those we still have the issue of gimmicks that try to make the superboss virtually interesting: guess who.
On the rare occasion I join, I see solely Quickman, Gyroman, Pharaohman, and Darkman3. It drives me nearly insane when I actually try to play so I just quit.
It's funny that you identified those specific classes. They more or less embody Scout, Soldier and Sniper from TF2: the closest approximation in TF2 to effective 1vHale fights (most optimal speed, most optimal damage output, highest damage output with lowest risk, most optimal consecutive damage output, abilities that generally decrease risk).
I will say this: I once suggested in the YDClasses devchat that a "Robot Master superboss game mode" should be created in order to compete with Saxton Hale. Grab some classes, and turn them into superbosses with some different abilities and twists: kinda like the super versions of the TF2 team's robotic copies. What I tried to criticize was that the current state of Saxton Hale is, in my opinion, a bad design choice. Not necessarily is it less fun, though. This is where we must come in to introduce a superboss mode that competes with Saxton Hale AND is also superior, which is easily possible.
I can't help but feel that most of the long-time members are just complaining too much over what is basically a matter of taste.
We shouldn't complain about how Saxton Hale is bad and why no one should play it. We should instead complain why no one has thought about making a better Saxton Hale. One that doesn't break the context of the game, one that can be balanced and designed with complete disregard of lol culture, one that rightfully complements with the deathmatch vision of the game without the need of external mods to "fill the design gap": a serious approach to the superboss game mode. Porting VSH to MM8BDM is not a serious approach and will always be flawed, no matter where you look it from: this should've been fixed by us.
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Lego's Monsteropolis Mash is probably on indefinite hiatus due to
Under Siege
coming Never 20XX
But yeah that's basically it for any chance of a rework
Unless someone else is competent enough to make a working base for this that doesn't bug out every minute
Why don't we just port Mann vs Machine to 8BDM instead
And I'm not talking about Mess's Bot Apoc; that's just TLMS vs Bots & Their Leader with extra features & less hassle
like an actual MvM game vs. enemies
so Invasion v2 but with an actual goal and varied maps
and then we can all cry collectively on an Extreme Mannworks run
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ok, i would love magnet dood's idea, someone work on a no OHKO version of that.
as for chme, ORLY? cuz EVERY SINGLE TIME theres that last person just running around.
as for flying characters, even with the nerf, its still enough for a retreat. every time i am the last one, and am a flyer, i always win.
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If SH is so played, it's because a lot of peoples like it
No, a great deal of people play Saxton Hale because that's the only thing they can play. Or, rather, they're not forced to play it, but since that's where 90% of the online playerbase hangs out, if they want to satisfy the multiplayer MM8BDM itch, that's the only real option they have. And the only way it is going to change is if people actually start playing different gamemodes, which most people are unwilling to do, since no one is playing those gamemodes. It's a Catch-22.
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Funny, part of the reason balrogsh is dead is because I was hoping Classes Saxton would die. It didn't.
I've already said it before, Saxton Hale (and Classes Saxton, and Roboenza, and whatever Lego's working on, and Team Classes, and All Out War 2, and...) is popular because it allows idiots to win without doing anything that merits any kind of recognition, along with griefers who love griefing the Hale with flying classes. The problem is exacerbated for MM8BDM because being part lolmegamanz means having an invariably high proportion of idiots, which leads to most of the playerbase playing modes like Saxton Hale, which leads to...
If SH is so played, it's because a lot of peoples like it
No, a great deal of people play Saxton Hale because that's the only thing they can play. Or, rather, they're not forced to play it, but since that's where 90% of the online playerbase hangs out, if they want to satisfy the multiplayer MM8BDM itch, that's the only real option they have. And the only way it is going to change is if people actually start playing different gamemodes, which most people are unwilling to do, since no one is playing those gamemodes. It's a Catch-22.
Nothing will change this short of actively hiding the game from discovery and beating back everyone who doesn't meet our standards, thus letting the idiot population whither and die. This is untenable, for obvious reasons. FWIW, Tsuki bugged me about trying to get the combination of Classes and balrogsh banned from BEST-EVER. Jenova said that if things worked like that MM8BDM would be banned from the Zandronum master server.
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Jenova said that if things worked like that MM8BDM would be banned from the Zandronum master server.
What the fuck? That sounds highly unreasonable for asking a simple request. Yet when CSCC started sucking bandwidth (or some shit, I don't remember), they wasted no time in banning it from BE. That was a reasonable action, which is why it doesn't make sense to me that they'd choose to ban MM8BDM in general from just asking to prevent one mod combination.
Well, who knows. Maybe they're afraid people will keep asking for other mods to get banned. But again, that doesn't make it any less than a shitty attitude.
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Saxton Hale (and Classes Saxton, and Roboenza, and whatever Lego's working on, and Team Classes, and All Out War 2, and...) is popular because it allows idiots to win without doing anything that merits any kind of recognition, along with griefers who love griefing the Hale with flying classes.
I'm gonna keep this topic open after you've said that just because you created part of this mess.
Wait I can't lock this? But I created it...well, I'll just let you ride that one out on your own.
Tsuki bugged me about trying to get the combination of Classes and balrogsh banned from BEST-EVER. Jenova said that if things worked like that MM8BDM would be banned from the Zandronum master server.
And Jenova is right, because it's common sense that banning two mods just because a part of the community doesn't like them leads to all kinds of abuse, flame wars and self-mutilation. We shouldn't worry about why people play something that we see as bad, but rather worry about making something better and offer variety to players.
No, a great deal of people play Saxton Hale because that's the only thing they can play. Or, rather, they're not forced to play it, but since that's where 90% of the online playerbase hangs out, if they want to satisfy the multiplayer MM8BDM itch, that's the only real option they have. And the only way it is going to change is if people actually start playing different gamemodes, which most people are unwilling to do, since no one is playing those gamemodes. It's a Catch-22.
I don't think it's a matter of plotting the creation of a server with an specific mod, raid it to bloat the player count, and entice the SH player base into it...I will mantain my argument: we can create something better than Saxton Hale, something everyone can enjoy.
If it were an issue of no variety, the solution is simple: let us host something different every three days or so, and keep that initiative alive.
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... well it is understandable.
Traditionally the Doomers haven't really appreciated mm8bdm's existence too much.
And asking to ban one type of WADs (Saxton Hale) because some people dont like it would make it okay to ban other WADs some people don't like, including mm8bdm.
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I don't think Jenova is aiming for a matter of fairness, though. From the way it was worded, it sounded more like it would be the easiest way out from the first time such a matter is asked, which is sloppy. Not assuming Jenova was indeed being sloppy, but that's just the way I perceived it. On the other hand...
we can create something better than Saxton Hale, something everyone can enjoy.
If it were an issue of no variety, the solution is simple: let us host something different every three days or so, and keep that initiative alive.
Musashi hit both nails, and I agree with both points.
EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the need to rework Saxton Hale to something more Megaman has to do with the fear of the game as a whole devolving into something it really isn't. I, for one, feel this "fear".
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I don't think Jenova is aiming for a matter of fairness, though. From the way it was worded, it sounded more like it would be the easiest way out from the first time such a matter is asked, which is sloppy. Not assuming Jenova was indeed being sloppy, but that's just the way I perceived it. On the other hand...
The complete rationale he gave was "We're not going to keep people from playing certain wads just because they're stupid or unbalanced." The MM8BDM thing was just an example.
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Oh alright, thanks for clearing that up, man.
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If there is so many peoples who plays SH without liking it, so they're enough for playing in another servers...
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If there is so many peoples who plays SH without liking it, so they're enough for playing in another servers...
Most people don't have the time or patience to sit in an empty server until it populates itself. A lot of people just want to have a quick game of MM8BDM with a decent amount of playmates to interact with. Populating an empty server often takes a really long time. By the time there are actually people there, you might not even want to play anymore.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the need to rework Saxton Hale to something more Megaman has to do with the fear of the game as a whole devolving into something it really isn't. I, for one, feel this "fear".
My solution to that was that we integrate the superboss concept with Mega Man/Capcom/NES/Doom/deathmatch elements. Or even better: make a Terminator expansion based off superboss mode.
Here, I have an idea: let's say we create 6 types of superbosses: Gutsman-G, Heatman-G, Snakeman-G, Ringman-G, Napalmman-G and Blizzardman-G. Each superboss has a different kind of Terminator powerup, and the player who grabs it turns into the superboss that powerup represents. The Terminator powerup appears and reappears in different places of the map every 5 seconds or so, and it randomly changes form. The goal would be to kill the player that has the Terminator powerup. Superbosses walk somewhat slow but their attacks are very powerful, being attacked fills up a devastating rage mode, and their health is calculated as you would expect from a superboss mode. A twist would be that, during rage mode, you're more vulnerable to attacks and if you're killed, you drop the Terminator powerup for others to pick up. If you're the last player alive, you gain some extra abilities to deal with the superboss (namely the vanilla Terminator enhancements), and if you defeat him, you win. If there are more players alive and they defeat the superboss, they win.
EDIT: Let's add something else to the mix: the way players get randomized weapons is different from the usual. Instead of getting a number of random weapons of the totality of weapons the game offers, each player gets a random set of weapons that are put together based on certain abilities: rapid-fire, hard-hitters, explosives, rippers, shields and elemental weapons. Some deathmatch weapons like shields and healing items would need to be changed in order to make them more teamwork-oriented, though.
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Oh boy you're in for a treat.
Rozark Presents: 50 Shades of Saxton Hale- The Do It Yourself Webster's Edition Segment I
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Part 1- Level 1
I will mantain my argument: we can create something better than Saxton Hale, something everyone can enjoy.
If it were an issue of no variety, the solution is simple: let us host something different every three days or so, and keep that initiative alive.
Let's dissect this for a moment with.. OPINIONS.
Because quite frankly I'm tired of people complaining about Saxton Hale.
we can create something better than Saxton Hale, something everyone can enjoy.
Yes, we CAN create something better than Saxton Hale (Your opinion stated there) but will we? How many people have the actual motivation to go and say, recreate Domination? Make a better CTF? No? Those don't sound good? You might say create your own mode, but then what happens? We get the people, we get the hype, we start making things and just like expansions.. IT DIES OFF.
Back to Saxton Hale, back to people hating on it because it's "popular" (which for that reason it's wrong), and back to people here trying to make more alternatives before the cycle repeats itself. Alright, on to the next bit.
If it were an issue of no variety, the solution is simple: let us host something different every three days or so, and keep that initiative alive.
I call your bluff right here. This exact spot. Nope, not going to happen. Do you know why? I've already stated it above. IF interest even happens, IF people actually pursue that interest and play, and IF people continue to join those servers, that still wouldn't do anything. Introduce people to new modes yes, but ultimately it's up to the player and what they want to play. You can't outright force them to stop playing something they enjoy; there's no need to ridicule them either. If you honestly want to go "host something different every three days", then go get people and do it. Quit complaining about how it doesn't happen and just GO DO IT.
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Part 2- Balrog Speaks
Saxton Hale (and Classes Saxton, and Roboenza, and whatever Lego's working on, and Team Classes, and All Out War 2, and...) is popular because it allows idiots to win without doing anything that merits any kind of recognition, along with griefers who love griefing the Hale with flying classes.
Oh Balrog how you make me laugh.
Give me a moment.
Ok done with that.
Let's lay down a few ground "rules"
1: They're not idiots, they play this game too, they're community- the same community both you and I are apart of. By that definition we're both idiots, which, that isn't the case.
2: Without doing anything? They fight with respectable combat against each other, that's what mm8bdm is down to some of the bare bones, right? Every mode has these; they're all doing something.
3: Any kind of recognition? Is playing a game supposed to get you recognition; some sort of fame/being recognized? Isn't it good enough to just, play the game?
4: Flying classes. Instead of just outright removing classes, don't even touch them. Do NOT touch them in any way. If people REALLY want to play classes saxton, by entering the server they acknowledge the terms and agreement. A very subtle, yet noticeable rule: You accept the bullshit that may occur while playing this. You willingly and acceptingly go into this KNOWING what's about to go down. If you don't like it, go attempt to start another fad with the rest of the "haters".
Now that the ground rules are done, let's dissect. No, just no.
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Part 3- Balrog Speaks 2: Electric Boogaloo
Nothing will change this short of actively hiding the game from discovery and beating back everyone who doesn't meet our standards, thus letting the idiot population whither and die. This is untenable, for obvious reasons. FWIW, Tsuki bugged me about trying to get the combination of Classes and balrogsh banned from BEST-EVER. Jenova said that if things worked like that MM8BDM would be banned from the Zandronum master server.
OH BOY HERE WE GO
Nothing will change this short of actively hiding the game from discovery and beating back everyone who doesn't meet our standards, thus letting the idiot population whither and die. This is untenable, for obvious reasons.
I'm trying to understand this. I stared at it for 5 straight minutes. I put it through google translate, through gizoogle, everything I could think of, and I just can't make sense of it. I can't, you're Balrog, I can't. If you're saying that can't be objectioned to, that's because this can't be made any sense. Also state these "obvious reasons".
FWIW, Tsuki bugged me about trying to get the combination of Classes and balrogsh banned from BEST-EVER. Jenova said that if things worked like that MM8BDM would be banned from the Zandronum master server.
Stop. Hold up. Tsuki is a special case; at one time he supported the combination and defended it, yet here you're saying he doesn't want it. What. Also, what made you even think that bothering someone to ban the thing that is most played was the greatest idea? Jenova stated that he acknowledges that MM8BDM is played often and won't ban it because of so. You're trying to ban a popular played mod, no. Also Balrog, I'm aware you may or may not have jumped to these sections simply because it says your name. Go back and read the thing on Myroc's, more specifically, how to stop complaining and do something AKA the name of this post.
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Part 4- Bonus Content: Knux- and that's it.
> Saxton is dominant
> MM8BDM is being played.
> be glad
Someone else is going to say it if I don't anyway, but you're sorely mistaken. If 8BDM was being played, there wouldn't be so many complaints about Saxton. But no, it's not. And for the rest of us that actually care for the real game, that's nothing to be glad about. Get your facts straight.
WE NOW RETURN TO YOUR REGULAR SCREENSHOT PROGRAM.
Ripped from Screenshots thread.
First up: That isn't an actual quote, rather, that's just 4chan summarizing, if I'm not mistaken.
Second: Classes Saxton is being played in mm8bdm, therefore.. mm8bdm is being played at the core. People complain about saxton because they don't go and make their own things/get a group together, as stated previously above. Also, this IS the real game @ MM8BDM. Despite me liking vanilla, mods keep this thing fresh and alive. We're still alive, just to some of the more Rantists of the community, it isn't fresh. Go do something then. Also, my facts ARE straight. I'm not the one who stated mm8bdm isn't being played when the mm8bdm core IS being played with a mod. It's being played. Done.
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Part 5- Segment Conclusion
Now that all that is over, I conclude that complaining over something without actually doing anything yourself is very bad, so stop complaining and go do something already. Don't just plan, ACTUALLY GET A TEAM AND GO GET WORK DONE. Good luck not getting in expansion pack limbo. We don't even need a thread for this; why is it still up? Just go head on over to events, go schedule one, watch people agree and go play. Win-win, as it was said.
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Why don't we just port Mann vs Machine to 8BDM instead
Ow...
My brain.
Just the simple thought of getting monsters to move along a fixed patch hurts my head beyond all forms of comprehension.
As much as I would love to make Monsteropolis Mash, yeah...as TGOT said it isn't happening any time soon due to Under Siege.
The only thing about that? What I was working on for Under Siege is basically finished. The only thing I have left to do for it is guess what?
Minion pathing.
Which is getting monsters to move along a fixed path.
This was an issue that stopped me from working a week ago. I thought of a system to do it, but I never implemented it...I need to do that this weekend and then maybe I will finally be able to make something else.
Anyway, my two bits.
I'm personally quite happy this topic came into being. The whole idiocy with Saxton Hale has gotten quite old.
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*snip*
Hey, you go change that, you're quoting me, not Myroc. You change that into Soda Fountain.
Also thanks for that buzzkill and how you missed a chance on actually going piece by piece and giving a proper response to the original post instead of complaining about complainers and being a party popper.
To make it simple, that is a matter of how MM8BDM servers are moderated. Not in the sense of bans and kicks and whatnot, but rather how they're hosted and set in the playability sense, but that's another story. What I want to focus on is to why Saxton Hale is seen by some as bad, and try to give my own thoughts regarding that.
If it were an issue of no variety, the solution is simple: let us host something different every three days or so, and keep that initiative alive.
I really did expect a proper analysis of my rant (why I don't like Saxton Hale in MM8BDM), and not a rant of a different topic (lack of variety in hosted mods). But I will answer one particular part that did catch my attention:
Yes, we CAN create something better than Saxton Hale (Your opinion stated there) but will we? How many people have the actual motivation to go and say, recreate Domination? Make a better CTF? No? Those don't sound good? You might say create your own mode, but then what happens? We get the people, we get the hype, we start making things and just like expansions.. IT DIES OFF.
I think that comes from yet another topic: how expansions are conceived, and how development is managed. I recall discussing that here with some guy I don't remember, and I think the conclussion was this: we come up and try to make many interesting things, but we have very limited talented developers, so most of those interesting things come to a halt until someone else picks them up and tries to finish them. These developers are working on their own projects that they like, and we can't ask them to just drop it all and work on this one thing ASAP as if it was a matter of life and death. Our community developers always have their hands full, so what we need is a new brethen of those. Not only that, but development managing also calls for a proper vission of leadership and design coherence, as well as a change of perception on what expansions are.
But that's another story: I focused on why the current state of Saxton Hale is, in my opinion, badly designed, and if people had other opinions. Mike also pointed out that we can't force people to play something else because of that if they find it fun, which is good, to which I agreed and replied with the need of remaking the superboss mode into something that everyone can enjoy.
But then Rozark was all like "but in reality we're lazy and never finish anything so stop complaining".
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As much as it hurts to hear, he's pretty much right. The only one with a reliable track record for releasing things around here (not including the devs) is YD, finishing and releasing at least one version of all of the projects he's started. Mess and Myroc have also been pretty good with their projects, but that's about where the line ends. Other expansion leaders haven't even come close to releasing anything of such magnitude, such as myself, Rozark, Korby, and a whole slew of others. Clearly the talent pool is spread too thin to get anything done of merit around here.
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stuff
Good god that's long. So long I can't be bothered to split it up.
By "recognition" I mean things like having skill. In modes like DM, you need personal skill to win. In Saxton Hale (plus the other wads I mentioned) you can sit in a corner for 20 minutes and still have "You Win!" on your screen despite contributing nothing to the team's victory. (All team-based stuff has this to an extent, but for some reason these mods are the worst about it.) Yes, this sounds elitist, but it seems to line up with my personal experience. By "idiots" I mean, well, people who act like idiots on the Internet far past the point where it stops being funny. I've already made clear what I mean by this in previous "why are these new players so bad?" threads, so I don't feel I need to repeat myself. I feel that such players aren't really a part of the community because they make no attempt to actually follow the standards and etiquette of the community, nor do they contribute to the game. It's the difference between paying attention to your instructor, taking notes and maybe offering your insights during Philosophy class versus spending the session texting and chewing gum.
The basic process I've happened upon is "New player gets computer priveliges from parents, new player Googles 'free megaman game', new player installs MM8BDM, new player finds Doomseeker tutorial from launcher button, new player joins server, new player loses horribly, new player gets frustrated that other players with skill are beating them, new player and thinks 'this is unbalanced as heck!' and ragequits instead of practicing, new player happens across Saxton Classes Roboenza 2: The Second Coming, new player wins, new player thinks 'finally something that's balanced!' and plays nothing else forever and ever." Multiply that by a large n where n is the SCR2-only playerbase.
We know that people tend to play on full servers rather than loiter in empty servers hoping that they populate. Now the Saxton overload effect begins to be apparent despite the vitriol expressed here.
The banning thing was all Tsuki's idea, I just bounced it off of Jenova because I was curious to hear his end. I never expected him to approve it; if I did I would have dropped the matter, because actually getting a ban implemented would be a tremendously dickish thing to do. There's a reason I haven't closed off the ACS for Saxton Hale to complicate the process of removing the classes-blocker; it's because I believe that sharing your work is a good idea, and that completely blocking off any form of class-based modification from Saxton Hale is a dick move because it precludes the creation of mods specifically balanced against the hales.
The "nothing will change" part was derived from the following process:
Idiots (as defined elsewhere) will be able to find this website and therefore this game as long as it is easily discovered
As long as idiots are able to find this game the above bandwagon effect will occur
Therefore the solution to preventing the above bandwagon effect is to keep the game from being easily discovered.
The "obvious reasons" are that we'd be utter asshats if we did that and it would cripple our growth, causing the game to slowly whither and die.
The reason that nobody has done anything about this is twofold. First, it's far easier to complain about something than to do something about it, especially on the internet. Second, there seems to be a perception that any such events are doomed to fail in the long term because of the aforementioned bandwagon effect. I'd be happy to see more vanilla events and non-ass mods; I'm surprised there aren't any right now.
As much as it hurts to hear, he's pretty much right. The only one with a reliable track record for releasing things around here (not including the devs) is YD, finishing and releasing at least one version of all of the projects he's started. Mess and Myroc have also been pretty good with their projects, but that's about where the line ends. Other expansion leaders haven't even come close to releasing anything of such magnitude, such as myself, Rozark, Korby, and a whole slew of others. Clearly the talent pool is spread too thin to get anything done of merit around here.
And that.
Overall, I've decided I created a monster by keeping Saxton Hale alive. There's nothing else on anymore. If I had known this would happen, I would have never made Balrog's Fixed Saxton Hale and discouraged Tsuki and Lego from doing anything. Still, what's passed is passed, and all we can do is adapt to the new reality and try to keep play diversity (now circling the drain) from disappearing entirely.
My brain hurts. I'm going to play Skullgirls for a bit now before bed.
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Reliable and getting things done is two different things. YD has gotten things out, but he's hardly "reliable" at it. RNC was dead for the longest time. The same goes with Myroc. Mess tends to be the main driver for getting anything related to PU done. So Mess is the only one I would say is "reliable" the other two just happen to get it done eventually.
Now for my next point. And this one is direct especially towards people like you Magnet Dood.
Focus on one project. The reason official MM8BDM expansions get done effectively and efficiently isn't just an effective dev team, it's that a majority of the members are putting most of their effort into the official expansion. DOS, R&F2, V, MI, etc all suffer from having main players who divide their focus between multiple expansions. The result is barely anything gets done. So if you really want to get more expansions on their feet, just pick one and focus most of your energy in it. That's how v3 got done. That's how v4 is getting done. It works.
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Yeah, my replies in blue.
Second: Classes Saxton is being played in mm8bdm, therefore.. mm8bdm is being played at the core.
Force shoving one thing into another different thing makes it something else, so no.
People complain about saxton because they don't go and make their own things/get a group together, as stated previously above. Also, this IS the real game @ MM8BDM. Despite me liking vanilla, mods keep this thing fresh and alive. We're still alive, just to some of the more Rantists of the community, it isn't fresh. Go do something then.
Oh yeah, no shit. It's what we're trying to get at here, genius.
Also, my facts ARE straight. I'm not the one who stated mm8bdm isn't being played when the mm8bdm core IS being played with a mod.
Except you just did once again. Twisting the fact that we have an uber popular mod that's full of game mechanics and sounds not originally intended for the core game won't help your point, whatever the hell that is. The bottom line is, it doesn't feel like MM8BDM AT ALL.
If you had a glass of orange juice and added a bunch of sand to it then drank it, could you say it was orange juice? Hahah, yeah I didn't think so, either. After all, it would be what the human brain recognizes as indigestible shit.
Then again, I guess some like the taste. Oh well!
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Balrog, you're not helping your case by just going "stuff".
Quick dissection and I'm done with you; it's easy to pick apart.
If we're talking about "skill" you don't need skill for any mode. At all. DM doesn't count because you grab closest weapon, fire into swarm, win. Duel isn't skill either due to "LETS FIGHT NO LETS HEAL NO LETS FIGHT NO LETS HEAL -10 minutes later- FIRST FRAG"
Also, they play the game to have fun, not follow whatever rules you're making up right there.
You're hating on new players. This is why you're named "The Harbinger" in a thing I contributed to. You're afraid of new players, fix that. It's an open community and it's going to stay that way.
-skipping over a few things because i've already told you that the "idiots" you're talking about are new players as we all were at one point-
Done with that.
Get over your fear of new players and stop complaining and do something.
Silly how just that sentence alone takes care of that entire page you wrote.
On another point, Star Dood, that statement puts the ENTIRE effort of 4mi on myself, when that isn't the case. HD and Blaze took the entire thing before I, where as I've only had it for 2-3 months. 2-3 months isn't enough time so rephrase that sentence of yours/yes I've still got a fairly reliable track record.
Also, hey knux, that's still orange juice, just with sand in it. You don't just call it sand juice, that'd be pure sand.
I'm also aware that saxton isn't core mm8bdm, but you're still playing mm8bdm.
Lastly I'll take that note Ivory wrote and put it in my executive folder.
Gee I just keep adding on as I think of things.
Musashi, I'll leave your first post alone FOR NOW because you gave reasons on why it wasn't fit for mm8bdm, which I'll later get back to if I feel like it. I really don't think this topic should even exist as it mostly consists of people just complaining about doing something rather than doing it, but whatever.
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I'd like this topic to end with Rozark's post. I request this topic to be locked, please.
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I guess that's that, then.