Cutstuff Forum

Mega Man 8-bit Deathmatch => MM8BDM Discussion => Topic started by: Ivory on November 08, 2013, 08:21:06 PM

Title: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on November 08, 2013, 08:21:06 PM

Hey all you Mega Man fans! You ready for the dev team to try something new?

The dev team does try to improve upon older maps, but it's apparent not everyone has the same kind of feelings on a map. Even if the majority of the dev team agree on one thing, the community may have a different opinions. In order to make for a more friendly and agreeable outcome for a better MM8BDM, we'll be trying something new.

We're asking you, the community, to provide feedback on MM8BDM core maps and any sort of changes that you feel should be made. Then we can take it into future consideration. I hope this sounds fair.

Just a few rules/guidelines to follow:

If you want your opinion to be considered, then have some reasons to back you up. Just saying "Map X sucks, change it" doesn't tell us anything.
Generally, we'll be looking for a majority preference. The more voices which share a similar opinion is more likely to be considered than just a single voice.
Suggestions/Recommendations are always helpful. Have an idea on how to improve a map? Then share it.

=============================================================================

Now, to kick this off. I will be revealing two changed maps. One of which was had a few pages dedicated to it, the other is an example of where a tiny change led to a larger impact. In both cases, I'm trying to showcase the idea of how to discuss a map and how to go about discussing the faults that you feel should be addressed.

So first off: Cut Man. It's goal was to be the introduction map to MM8BDM's gameplay. A simple, safe map where you can learn the rules of the game and get a grasp of basic concepts. Nonetheless, this map didn't actually do its job too well, it was a bit too small and symmetrical. It also wasn't really that fun to play on ever. So I ended up building onto it and the dev team liked it. Even Mike who was previously against it. We were going to save this for a surprise originally, but I just know that this map is going to be brought up.

(click to show/hide)

(http://puu.sh/5crJ9.png)
(http://puu.sh/5crdr.png)
(http://puu.sh/5crfC.png)
(http://puu.sh/5crkl.png)
(http://puu.sh/5cruE.png)
(http://puu.sh/5crwl.png)

So the matter of business was to keep the idea of the level being the world 1-1 of MM8BDM. It's still a safe level, easy to understand layout, but it's more complex now. It's not 4-way symmetry and it makes the sides more distinctive. The weapon set continues to use easier to pick up and understand weapons that teach basic weapon concepts. Freeze Cracker shows off weapons that have some kind of behavior when they hit something. Bubble Lead teaches about ground hugging weapons and concepts like that. It also puts Rolling Cutter into a new location which makes it feel more like "Cut Man's weapon" rather than Atomic Fire feeling like it has more importance than Rolling Cutter itself. In general, while still a small level, it's a more fun level than the aged old original map.


The next map I will show off is Drill Man. There are some mixed opinions on this map, but in my opinion, it's a nice small sized map with a gimmicky power weapon focused gameplay. This map however had one fatal flaw that I wanted to address. Regardless of how many players, whether a duel or 8 players, that teleporter was a liability and risk to use. It was more likely to get you killed, whether it was by a telefragger or someone who happens to be on the other end. And this was actually the very first map change I personally did for v4a. So how did I go about fixing this?

(click to show/hide)

(http://puu.sh/5cs6L.png)

Yeah, not really much to it? Got rid of the teleporter, punched a hole in the wall instead. As far as our v4a testing has concluded, it improved the map flow a great deal and halted all the risk involved in jumping through a teleporter just go past a wall.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: FTX6004 on November 08, 2013, 08:26:26 PM

I love what you did to Cutman's stage.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Gumballtoid on November 08, 2013, 08:29:51 PM

MM4DUS is that one map I always dread playing on. The crushers are incredibly unforgiving if you don't shoot underneath at just the right moment, and the confined, claustrophobic feeling I get when I play on that map is just additional deterrent. The layout is solid, but it could do with a little more breathing room if you ask me.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Orange juice :l on November 08, 2013, 08:32:25 PM

Drillman's teleporter was the one thing that added strategy to the map. It'd go from a map with an interesting, yet natural, gimmick to a map that's oppressively flat with a braindead weapon selection. I'd much rather see Centaurman's two way teleporter go, but that map's probably going to be overhauled entirely.

Also, I agree with Gumballtoid. The crushers would be somewhat reasonable if you didn't have to jump out of them. Such a claustrophobic map, paired with the weapon selection, needed to be extended (or perhaps scaled up) far more than other "small maps" like Gemini or Magnet.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Rozark on November 08, 2013, 08:58:53 PM

Quote from: "Gumballtoid"

MM4DUS is that one map I always dread playing on. The crushers are incredibly unforgiving if you don't shoot underneath at just the right moment, and the confined, claustrophobic feeling I get when I play on that map is just additional deterrent. The layout is solid, but it could do with a little more breathing room if you ask me.

The frequency of the crushers/waiting on them to move up and down just for that split second cross- that's too long in a small map with a frantic pace. Alternative pathes, the map being larger, or a better timeframe to cross the current pathes could be things to look at.

Also, that dead end in skullman isn't healthy. A room such as that really needs another way in/out.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on November 08, 2013, 09:01:02 PM

I guess I should mention that MM4DUS has been a map we looked at, and worked on. I'm not going to show it off as of now, various changes have been done to it to improve the map flow.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Beed28 on November 08, 2013, 10:02:11 PM

One map I would like to see overhauled is Crash Man. The entire map is just bland narrow "valleys" (or crevices, or whatever) with no distinctive landmarks. I would love to see the moving platforms make an appearance in some way, and maybe put some Tellies in the background like in Heat Man to liven the place up.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: tsukiyomaru0 on November 08, 2013, 11:52:31 PM

Time for me to use the listing. Of course, I'll discard maps that you showed here and on the other thread since they have been redone and I will also not mention small maps that are obviously small and do need some play area increase.
* MM1BOM - The map isn't that bad, but encourage too much of "cat 'n mice": it's a flat map with just a "cross" centre that hardly changes the gameplay. Also, the four central walls do look like one could get on it, but inviz walls blocks. Perhaps those areas could be some sort of towers?
* MM1ICE - Something about it being "two levels" makes me uncomfortable. But my main idea here would be that the lower parts of the "towers" could be some sort of ice cave that has a way to lead you to the lower level (if the "two levels" are kept).
* MM1FIR - Just a bit too small. Perhaps add something to the area around the teleporter exit(s), like an area where you have to do some jumps in order to get an item or go from teleporter exit A to teleporter exit B. Something involving that lava pit outside.
* MM2BUB - divide that map into two sections: underwater middle section and the "outside" section without water but perhaps with some tricky platforming on 2 of the 4 corners.
* MM2FLA - More area and less "bumping into things while running on the wet floor" (By that I mean: less columns in the middle of the stage).
* MM2MET - Just extend the "gear maze" and "conveyor corner" a bit. Just to make them a little more interesting. Overall, the map seems to be fine.
* MM2DW1 - I know of an easter egg it could use... Involving shooting a dragon and a certain music everyone knows. OKKUSENMAN! OKKUSENMAN!
* MM3NED - Add a needle trap maybe?
* MM3SPA - Perhaps "junk blocks" could fall from some pipes.
* MM4BRI - NEEDS.TO.BE.REDONE.URGENTLY. Seriously, it is a TERRIBLE map. Split it into three areas and have ONLY the middle section be affected by the Blackout but still allow you to see something to tell you that you are facing stairs or ledge. over 3/4 of the players in it end up dying because of an INVISIBLE PIT in the dark.
* MM4SKU - MAP01? Really? Why not make it based on E1M1 instead?
* MM4DUS - Crushers. They need more delay before they descent upon the unfortunate player.
* MM5GRA - Less "gravity flip" and more "gravity areas". By this I mean some area should have normal gravity, others should have halved gravity, and another ones should have doubled gravity. Currently this map is more of a gamble than actual skills.
* MM5STA - Perhaps a "pipe" connecting the indoors areas at some point while an asteroid storm could happen once in a while in the outside area, but nothing too serious.
* MM5CRY - Two of those three areas could be merged into one, while the last area could be accessed by teleporter or "pit". The merging point could perhaps be a drop with ladders.
* MM6CEN - Add the playable "waterfall" area and I will be okay with it.
* MM6PLA - Is still looking like a simple "Capture the flag" map. Could use some more area and even the springs or "platform flowers"
* MM6FLA - What was the name of those "cloud platforms" that could safely carry you over oil and flame again? They could be useful if this map was larger...
* MM6WIN - It's being reworked, right? Because it has that one dead end.
* MM7CLO - Please make it so the "wind" only pushes you if you are jumping.
* MM7TUR - Could use some map height. A second floor and higher sky would be REALLY nice.
* MM7DW2 - I see what you did there, but this map is just awful. Too much of "cat 'n mice" and the turtle looks like it suffered the same fate as Frogger.
* MM8FRO - The snowboard jumping sections are very unreliable, requiring a precision in jumping that is almost absurd. That and the snowboard sections are absurdly small and unnecessary.

I know it is a long list, but I honestly don't care if more than 3/4 of those are ignored. But that Gravity Man and Bright Man NEEDS to be redone

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on November 09, 2013, 12:23:46 AM

Right, MM7TUR. If we were to look at Nemu's map (Harvest) from the Halloween expansion, we'd notice that despite the fact that Turboroaders are in the map, they aren't always where players can get run over by them. Why, if MM7TUR needed some kind of change, this would be the hint to take for it.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on November 09, 2013, 12:33:18 AM

I'm not going to go over every map, I'll just mention some of the ones that come to my attention.

MM1CUT, I don't want to change, but I'm not going to fight it because I know it's a fight I'd lose.

MM2CRA I also wouldn't want to be changed, it's a good size and not too complicated, but some aesthetic additions like Tellies would work well.

MM2HEA I also don't want to see go, but I know that's a second battle I'd lose so I won't pursue.

MM4BRI I think is good for the most part but has one fatal flaw; the absolute darkness. I think if you copied from the MM4BRIX map and had the front of the stairs light up during darkness, it would improve the map tenfold.

MM4DUS, it's already been said and I definitely agree.

MM4SKU, ecch. It needs to be more open, not as in "every room connects to every room" but things like the infamous dead-end room need to be changed.

MM5GYR and MM5CRY are both not that great, the former being 2big4me and the latter relying too heavily on teleports, but I don't see any way that could be remedied so I won't push either of those.

MM6WIN I want to stay the same (besides the dead end getting fixed) and I am going to push this one. I think the map is great, a good compact size, and turning it into a bigger multistory map is just, no. No. To replace a great map is something I can't agree with, no matter how good the replacement is. That screenshot of the proposed new MM6WIN does look nice, but it's more fitting of a Remixed map, not to replace the core.

MM6BLI, mostly fine, but I'd make the icy blocks not icy, and maybe add some ice to the cave area to supplement.

MM7's map I can't think of any complaints.

MM8AST could use some simplification, I know it's supposed to be warp-y and all but it's rather confusing to navigate and even after months of playing I still get lost.

MM8SWO I also feel is a little too large, but that might just be the abundance of lava, maybe shrinking the pool of lava in the middle would be enough.


That's all I can currently think of, I'll add more if I think of any more

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Sir Lemon on November 09, 2013, 12:55:57 AM

I actually loved MM4BRI. I'm gonna' dive for cover now.

Okay, I better say something to defend it. It is a difficult map, sure but you make a run for that Beat Call and you're golden. It's alright in gametypes like Deathmatch and Duel because the darkness adds a strategic element and an advantage to anyone who memorized the layout. So, yeah, I'm guilty of knocking out the light to give myself an edge.

I love all the stairs and corners in the map, too. Using Knuckle when people jump, using Cutter on a stair while making a retreat and throwing Scorch Wheel down on people at lower levels.

It really does seem like everyone hates this map but me. So perhaps some form of change is necessary. Just saying that I really adore this map, I almost love it as much as MM3SPA.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Rozark on November 09, 2013, 01:49:18 AM

Since when did Diveman have to be completely underwater? I feel like there's wasted potential there.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ukiyama on November 09, 2013, 02:41:10 AM

Quote from: "Rozark Kyouko"

Since when did Diveman have to be completely underwater? I feel like there's wasted potential there.

*cough, up and down water, cough*

But yeah, the actual stage in the game, Dive Man had a area above the water. Granted it wasn't much but it could give a bit more flavor to the map.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Korby on November 09, 2013, 05:08:59 AM

Quote from: "tsukiyomaru0"

* MM2DW1 - I know of an easter egg it could use... Involving shooting a dragon and a certain music everyone knows. OKKUSENMAN! OKKUSENMAN!

I'm gonna go ahead and say that this is probably the least likely of all music things to happen.
Changing the music to a remix of the same song wouldn't make much sense, especially when it would have to be 8-bit.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: *Alice on November 09, 2013, 06:41:08 AM

I hereby vote against changing MM2FLA.
To me it is one of the most fun maps around because it is sort of small but not overly crowded. And it is a fun duel map.
And the teleporter is never really spammed on all that much, either.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Emmanuelf06 on November 09, 2013, 07:43:59 AM

Flashman map can be maybe more interesting, but it can be good if somebody work on a packmap for DUEL (little map then).

MM2FLA is good as MM4DRI, i think, anyways, if nobody try to make a packmap for duel, we need to keep those maps....
Cutman map is maybe TOO SHORT i think, and a lot of regen. :/

Sorry I didnt read the beginning of the threat.

Anyways, we need good "short map" and good" large map".

Title: CERTAIN people take note - this is what I expect from you.
Post by: Mendez on November 09, 2013, 08:59:57 AM

I frankly don't like the new version of Heat Man and I feel that it should it be taken back to the drawing board. I'm gonna post screenshots of specific parts of the map and try to explain why I don't consider this map to be as good as it should be. I'm mainly looking for answers to certain design choices, but there are some parts of the map that I feel are simply not designed well. Let's begin.
Energy all around

(click to show/hide)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11603985/V4A/Screenshot_Doom_20131108_234601.png)
The entire map feels littered with energy capsules that are usually off to the side but simple to walk over and pick up. While it can be argued that the loads of capsules help in large deathmatch games, that only leaves me to ponder why there is so few health capsules as well. Coupled with the energy balance, I would simply have to run around for a few seconds before refilling most of my weapons. If this is intended, then I don't understand what the need is for so much energy in the first place.

Mirror Buster vs. Skull Barrier

(click to show/hide)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11603985/V4A/Screenshot_Doom_20131109_001935.png)
I find Skull Barrier quite useless when compared to the defensive+offensive capabilities of a weapon like Mirror Buster. This is especially true when Mirror Buster is incredibly easy to attain in the first place. All you need to do to get Mirror Buster in this map is strafe run towards it from almost any angle, rendering the Yoku Blocks around the weapon utterly useless.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11603985/V4A/Screenshot_Doom_20131108_235926.png)
Even if Skull Barrier offers full protection and time for healing, the abundant amount of energy provides the opportunity to continuously use Skull Barrier to your heart's content. The time for healing seems to be Skull Barrier's only benefit too, considering that you could still navigate the stage just fine without having to cross the lava as a shortcut. At least in the original Heat Man, there were also opportunities to snag good items in the lava. I'm disappointed that no such opportunities appeared in this map.

Yoku Blocks vs. the Ladder

(click to show/hide)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11603985/V4A/Screenshot_Doom_20131108_235840.png)
What exactly is the advantage of navigating Yoku Blocks out in the open where you're practically a sitting duck for a few seconds? Is it that significant of a shortcut? I think not, considering there's a ladder about two seconds away from it.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11603985/V4A/Screenshot_Doom_20131108_235847.png)
The ladder is just about as fast as waiting for the block and jumping up. Also, the ladder is much closer to the power items than the Yoku Blocks are. This leads me to my next point.

Almost all the items in this map are far too easy to acquire

(click to show/hide)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11603985/V4A/Screenshot_Doom_20131108_235909.png)
As I climbed up the more-convenient-to-use-than-yoku-block-ish ladder, I was confronted with three useful items in the map. I was one turn or jump away from most of these items, and they're practically scattered across the map. This includes Treble Sentry, which requires one small jump to reach. While none of these items are incredibly powerful, it baffles me to think that in the old Heat Man, it was much harder to get Treble Sentry, while this map makes is incredibly easy. The only item that requires much effort is the e-tank. It requires that you aim item-2 accurately toward the tank and stay on the platform for about 5-7 seconds as it slowly moves toward the platform. You could use Skull Barrier to make the trip easier, but wouldn't it be faster to use Skull Barrier and reach toward the large health capsules scattered across the map? And if you wanted to just stay safe, wouldn't it be easier to quickly grab Mirror Buster and stay on the first floor, where you have no risk of falling into the lava all around you? This leads me to my next point.

Flash Stopper and the rails that appear to make Flash Stopper almost useless

(click to show/hide)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11603985/V4A/Screenshot_Doom_20131109_000219.png)
There is Flash Stopper, located in an corner of the map, in an indoor area where nobody can fall into lava after being blinded by Flash Stopper. You'd think that outside would be where Flash Stopper is incredibly useful, but there are rails that say otherwise.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11603985/V4A/Screenshot_Doom_20131109_000030.png)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11603985/V4A/Screenshot_Doom_20131109_000019.png
)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11603985/V4A/Screenshot_Doom_20131109_000000.png)
I assume this small pit is useful for people with Flash Stopper, but it's so small that I think it's an easily avoidable obstacle.
Why bother to make Flash Stopper difficult to acquire and then place rails all over the map to reduce its effectiveness?

Some parts of the layout in general feel odd to me

(click to show/hide)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11603985/V4A/Screenshot_Doom_20131109_000418.png)
There are a lot of paths converging in this section, meaning that there will be a lot of people who will be fighting in this section. However, this section is incredibly narrow compared to the rest of the open areas in the map, where less routes converge but there's more space for fighting.

Please note that I'm only doing this to set an example for certain people who feel that they can just say "you just make confusing maps with crappy weapon layouts" and think that it will automatically make the mappers know better. You need examples. Evidence. Time and effort to explain what makes these maps so flawed. I'm sick and tired of hearing such criticism of the team without any specific solution in mind, thinking that enough bitching and moaning will make a damn difference in this world. It won't. We're human. We don't know everything, and have never claimed so. We're more than willing to hear people out if they actually trusted us, but they seem so intent on thinking we're so evil and corrupt that they think we'll just magically topple over some day and leave them with the opportunity to take the helm and call the shots. That isn't happening, and you can stop wishing. You either help us or stay in the shadows and act like a bitter bastard while we churn out new versions. Again, I'm only talking to certain people when I say this. Everyone else in the community is just fine.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: TheDoc on November 09, 2013, 04:20:55 PM

Imo, MM2BUB needs a change.
1.) How hard is it to find people in MM2BUB, especially in a duel?
2.) The spikes are so annoying. SO ANNOYING. In trying to run away from an enemy or just rushing to a particular spot in the map, more often then not you'll run straight into the spikes. Bots run into them, too, but that's really not as important.
3.) I agree that a section above water in front of the big waterfall would be so cool. My best memory of Bubbleman's stage (for whatever reason) is starting out in front of that waterfall and then re-entering the waterfall section to before facing Bubbleman, and it'd be very nostalgic to add to the map.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ceridran on November 09, 2013, 04:35:30 PM

MM2FLA is one of the few small maps that really feel good, especially for dueling purpose.

If you feel it is needed, add yoku blocks or a staircase to get up to the teleporter exit, to the right of the bars.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on November 09, 2013, 04:50:10 PM

Quote from: "TheDoc"

Imo, MM2BUB needs a change.
1.) How hard is it to find people in MM2BUB, especially in a duel?
2.) The spikes are so annoying. SO ANNOYING. In trying to run away from an enemy or just rushing to a particular spot in the map, more often then not you'll run straight into the spikes. Bots run into them, too, but that's really not as important.
3.) I agree that a section above water in front of the big waterfall would be so cool. My best memory of Bubbleman's stage (for whatever reason) is starting out in front of that waterfall and then re-entering the waterfall section to before facing Bubbleman, and it'd be very nostalgic to add to the map.

It sounds like you want MM2BUB to be replaced by MM2BUBX.


As to the idea of a Duel pack, I'm all for it, I'd love to see some more maps catering to Duel. Maybe we could even get smaller versions of the large maps like Swordman and Mr. X.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Beed28 on November 09, 2013, 07:01:37 PM

Quote from: "Linnie"

It sounds like you want MM2BUB to be replaced by MM2BUBX.

MM2BUBX will need to be rebuilt from the ground up sometime in the future, as it uses a teleporter trick that would not be suitable for the core because it would be easy to telefrag opponents upon entering/leaving the water, especially in the shafts above the bubble bouncers.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: VGS2 on November 09, 2013, 07:15:30 PM

The only change I can think of is that a few more aesthetic changes to ol' Aqua Man's stage might be nice.
At the moment it just doesn't feel very Aqua Manish, save for the part of of the stage where the wall's all green/blue and wire-meshy.

Not really all that important, but if you're interested, I'd suggest putting those strange water towers from the start of Aqua Man's stage in the background somewhere, or maybe the cave where you fight Aqua Nan instead, or something like that. That should make things more handsome!

(click to show/hide)

Like putting it in here, for example.
(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/6397/qocc.png)

Also, the area with the waterfall as a background might be better with a bit of a brush up too.

(click to show/hide)

Like adding the logs and a bit of foliage as seen beow, maybe?
(http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/6071/p4zp.png)

I dunno man. Maybe it's fine the way it is. 'Tis up to you guys.

And gee Mendez, is it ok to be showing off so much of the new Heat Man and other stuff at once without Ivory here?  :shock:
Not that I'm complaining, of course...

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on November 09, 2013, 07:30:15 PM

To be technical, nope. He never asked me beforehand if it was alright. But what's done is done, it wasn't a MMB map.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Kapus on November 09, 2013, 07:39:02 PM

The water towers were actually used in the old beta version of the map. I could not figure out how to implement them properly at the time, though, so they were eventually removed.

They could work in that little window area, though. That's entirely possible.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Gumballtoid on November 11, 2013, 08:07:59 PM

It only recently occurred to me, but Gyroman's skybox burns my retinas. I feel like it would be much more bearable if the clouds were raised drastically.

It counts.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Beed28 on November 11, 2013, 08:23:12 PM

Quote from: "Gumballtoid"

It only recently occurred to me, but Gyroman's skybox burns my retinas. I feel like it would be much more bearable if the clouds were raised drastically.

It counts.

I think the skybox is like that because the giant fan up above is actually opaque; if the sky was moved up the white of the "ceiling" would cut off the blue and the cloud edges.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Lagman on November 12, 2013, 08:50:21 PM

YES. YOU CAN FINALLY GO OUTSIDE IN CUTMAN'S STAGE. HNNNNG

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: cybersavior on November 13, 2013, 05:33:15 AM

I don't have anything to say about total redesigns, I would like to see alternate versions of the smaller maps, don't remove them just give us alternate versions with a similar feel that support a larger amount of players.

Elecman's stage could use a couple blocks in the air connecting one side to the other in the big open area. The biggest offender here though is too many of the deathmatch starts are in the main area and there aren't many in other areas, instead there are numerous player 1 starts all over the outlying areas instead, WTF??? (perhaps an oversight?)

Slashman's stage needs the speed of the rivers in it to be reduced, significantly, as it currently stands the rivers are too much of a pain and most everyone I play with avoids them altogether(which isn't hard), because of this, the rivers themselves become pointless. Not to mention the travel speed does not match the animation of the water either, not even close.

Gutsman's stage has one area in the lower cave where the ceiling is too low for Gutsman to use his weapon, he cannot currently throw his weapon without it hitting the roof most of the time (I mean COME ON!!! Its his level after all, his own weapon should not be rendered useless anywhere in the level) A simple increase for the raising the lowest part of cave ceiling height by 32, Especially when playing classes mod as Gutsman.

Skullman's stage needs a major dialing down of the Skeleton Joes (I know we can turn them off, but I don't want that) I just would like to see their number reduced by a lot, I mean 25 Skeleton Joes for such a small level is a bit much.  I understand we are going for a spectator theme, but they're a scourge.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: *Alice on November 13, 2013, 06:00:50 AM

I object against making Gutsman's corridor taller.

I feel like the general roughness of the terrain that keeps getting in your way gives the map an unique personality.
Yes, it often get somewhat annoying, but being forced to make situational use of the weapons and not just Super Arm everything to death is in my eyes a good thing.
I, personally think that Hyper Bomb is maybe a little too spammable and I'd totally be in favor of replacing it with Napalm Bomb (if it doesn't break the gameplay).
But Gutsman is a really fun map because of how much it works against the player for once, unlike many of the newer maps where you get all the space in the world to do whatever you want.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on November 13, 2013, 02:14:19 PM

You can use the currents in MM7SLA to your advantage, you know? Run with them, and as soon as you're about to exit through the waterfall, jump and hug a wall. You'll end up in higher ground much quicker.

Title: I fucking hate this stupid-ass map
Post by: Max on November 13, 2013, 03:09:04 PM

Wave Man

I really dislike the new Wave Man. To me, it is one of the worst maps in the game and incredibly clunky and difficult to play on or enjoy.

The map's layout and flow are inherently flawed due to the narrowness of the playing space and the mostly flat triple area design. This results in a map that has no flow. Moving between any of the available areas is clunky, due to the necessity to use Wave Bikes, incredibly slow bubbles, or U-shaped slopes. In addition, the clunkiness of the detached area design means that very little fighting can be done cross-map. The areas are almost entirely segregated, the two inside areas cannot interact at all except by teleport pipe which removes all potential for fighting. The outside can fight poorly with either of the two other sides, but it is difficult and foolish to do so as your dodging area on the small platform is completely limited.

Examining each of the areas in turn, the water area is by far the biggest offender as it is simply impossible to fight properly in it. Any combat that could occur on the wavebikes is severely gimped due to the crampedness of the water area and the weapon selection, which does not lend itself well to the stage's gimmick like the old Wave Man did. It is also incredibly difficult to engage an opponent on the central platform, as the height difference tends to block shots and the surrounding water means that there is no room to dodge or escape a fight. The two other platforms are useless except for picking up weaponry due to their size, you would quite plainly die if you tried to fight on them.

Moving on to the Snake Man-styled single layer room. This room lends itself to combat more readily than the other two areas, but it is still difficult for the offensive attacker due to all the jumping that must be done to traverse the winding pipes. This favours defensive players, as they are able to confuse attackers by seeking refuge behind pipes and making escapes out the front or back of the area. This means that frags are not achieved and thus the map lasts longer. In addition, the Ballade Cracker placed in the middle of the room interrupts gameplay by providing unneeded height variation between the floor and the pillar, and the Cracker is difficult to gain in the first place due to the focus the room places on it which means anyone can easily see if you're trying to grab it. The U-shaped slopes in this room provide nothing to the flow, only serving to house a teleporter to the other room. Related to this, the exit for the teleporter from the other side is placed in a bad position where anyone can corner you in the small square area.

The other inside area is arguably more difficult for players to fight in, due to the two raised areas inside making it hard to get a lead on other players and often leading to camping behind cover waiting for the other person to give up their own. In addition, combat is further discouraged by the slow moving bubbles, which have the ability to block shots and lift players where they don't want to go. The room also features a hastily-implemented dual layer gimmick, but this does not work well due to the pointless ceilings limiting interaction between floors and the limited options to reach the second floor in the first place. This makes the second floor essentially worthless except for reaching extra weaponry or for chasing opponents, who can easily escape out the front or drop down to the other level to escape behind cover. This room features the same U-shaped corridor as the other room, which does not lend itself well to gameplay here either as the speed in climbing the slope cannot compare to the speed of the two ladders, which in turn are too spread out to make travelling between floors easy.

In addition to all of this, the map features an incredibly bloated weapon selection consisting of
-Two Buster Upgrades
-SIX long range weapons
-Three rapid fire weapons
-Three close range weapons
-Three power weapons
-Theoretically infinite items due to the party ball
This makes it even more difficult to score frags as weapons are spread out due to the number of them present in the map. A newly-spawned player will be unable to reach a good all-rounder weapon in time to prevent their death, as such weapons are only spawned in certain places. This also creates a problem for players who have not died in a while, as their inventory becomes problematic to sort through and it is made more difficult to select the appropriate weapon for the fighting. In addition to both of these points, it is obvious that some weapons simply do not need to be on the map. The amount of long-range weapons could easily be cut down to simply Thunder Bolt and Blizzard Attack, which would give newly-spawned players reliable weapons to grab and would not detract from the map too much. Weapons such as Gyro Attack or Dive Missile are simply useless on the map (the map also contains both Dive and Magnet) due to the narrow layout and cramped interiors.

My final point is that Water Wave is not given its proper time to shine on the map due to the flawed layout. It is blocked by the pipes and the Ballade pillar in the Snake Man room, it cannot be used cross area due to the water, it is difficult to use in the two-floored room due to the ceilings and its inability to travel upwards. The fact that the map also contains much better replacements for Water Wave such as Water Balloon and Yamato Spear makes me think that Water Wave was only included because it had to be and not because it was a useful weapon for the map (which it should be, given that it's Wave Man).

What should be done about Wave Man? I would say a complete overhaul as the map is fundamentally flawed, but due to it being added in V3 I don't see that happening, unfortunately. I would say cut down on the amount of weapons, flatten and expand the inside areas, provide 3D floors outside to increase fighting potential.

And change those fucking rails, they use a flag that makes you jump over them when you touch them (so you jump too far and die) which is unlike every other railing in the game!

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on November 13, 2013, 05:57:07 PM

I'm going to more strongly pursue keeping MM1CUT.

I really don't want it changed. The old map is perfect, it's incredibly compact and makes for very simple gameplay. I'm against the trend of trying to make everything bigger. I had a Duel on MM1CUT the other day and it was fun. You don't have to spend five minutes chasing down your opponent, it's simple and to the point. The average map size seems to get bigger and bigger, and I think it was Kapus that said V4 isn't going to buck that trend, and I feel strongly against doing it to old maps as well. With making Heat bigger, making Plant bigger, making Wind bigger, making Skull bigger (though that one in fairness does need to be changed) it feels like small maps are going to die out entirely, and changing the smallest map to fit that scheme is something I feel I need to call out and fight. There are some big maps that are horrible due to their size. I can't stand MM8DW1 because it's so large. I think making maps larger is detrimental to the playstyle of MM8BDM as a whole. It's going to cause more camping and more running away, magnifying what is already a problem.


Right now I feel I should ask anyone else who feels similarly to speak out, because I was told that I'm the only person against this and that there isn't any support for retaining the old MM1CUT. This is something we need to band together to fight if we want it to stay the same.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ceridran on November 13, 2013, 05:59:38 PM

From what I can see, it doesn't get all that much bigger.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on November 13, 2013, 06:21:16 PM

Linnie,
Cut Man went from being a tiny sized map to a small map. It's not any more complex, you don't spend 5 minutes chasing down your opponent. You are complaining about Cut Man like it was turned into a Knight Man sized map. It wasn't. I tell you this, but you don't listen. All I did to Drill Man was punch a hole in the wall, but it didn't get any bigger. Even considering the recent revisions I did to Heat Man based on recent feedback, it's still the same size as the old map. Dust Man was widen up a tad, the crushers were revised and an entirely new section of the map got added so you could bypass the deadly as heck junk shield crusher. Gemini Man got space, but it needed it. Magnet Man has almost the same dimensions, Quick Man only added some new routes over lasers, Toad Man was to add a new way to the top section of the map that didn't cross in the same congested part of the map, etc, etc, etc.

TL;DR/Linnie doesn't listen: You are over-thinking map size increases like small maps turned into knight man sized maps.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: *Alice on November 13, 2013, 06:21:31 PM

Riiiiight, Wave Man.
Wave Man is a bad DM map. And it is a gigantic jump in difficulty in the Singleplayer campaign.

The really bad thing is that Wave Man had no legitimately good map in the competition (which I even stated back then).
Honestly, I feel like someone should create a new one from scratch. I don't think I would want a slightly adjusted version of Beed's, nor a remixed version of YD's or Knux's entry. There has to be a good way to handle Wave Man, somehow.

And yes, I did vote for Beed28 back then, but I explicitly stated that his map was not all that good, yet disliked it less than the other ones. Now that we are about to hit a new major version number I feel like the time has come to finally replace that stop-gap solution with something that's actually good.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Tengu on November 13, 2013, 06:34:24 PM

I swear I'm the only person that actually likes current Waveman.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Messatsu on November 13, 2013, 07:16:42 PM

No, I rather enjoy it too.  I was talking with YD, and I don't see the same faults he sees on the map.  I do agree with some points in that the weaponset being a bit too diverse, but that's minor imo.  I highly doubt the map would get overhauled at this point, but if a bunch of similar points get brought up repeatedly, it's worth it for the dev team to look at. (Ex. crushers in Dust Man).

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Gumballtoid on November 13, 2013, 08:15:53 PM

I personally like new Waveman. Wavebike chases can be pretty fun, but they're also not too forced on you unless you just really want that party ball.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on November 13, 2013, 10:46:17 PM

Response to Alice's comment on Wave Man maps. Everyone else, move on.

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: "*Alice"

The really bad thing is that Wave Man had no legitimately good map in the competition (which I even stated back then).

I kind of resent that, you know? Not only because you don't know how much effort goes into mapping in the first place, but that you ignored the strategy potential in it and just skipped to saying it was bad. I'll explain for the billionth time, though.

In my Wave map, I was aiming to have wavebikes used mostly as straight, fast travel to a point in the map because there were a lot of (justified) complaints about wavebike abuse in the original core map. Even so, turning was very possible with little practice. Not only that, but Water Wave was useful in nearly all of the map due to flat ground. If there's one thing there probably wasn't enough of in the map, I'd say it was cover. So yes, my map had some flaws that could easily be fixed (not so good bubble and support items placement), but it wasn't a bad map by any means.

This isn't defending my work blindly like it was the fucking shit, it's about being logical and rather angry that after efforts of trying to make a better thing, some people piss on it and say it's bad without providing any useful feedback. I could just tell said people to go fuck themselves, but what's the use in that? I'm tired of arguing with unreasonable folks, anyway, but here you go.

I also kind of agree with YD about flow in the current Wave Man map. If you ask me though, I'd say one teleporting chute isn't enough. Think of this as you would with Wave Bike tubes, and you might see what I mean.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ceridran on November 13, 2013, 10:53:12 PM

YD's "map submission" for WaveMan's stage back then felt fairly fresh and interesting, if you ask me.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: *Alice on November 14, 2013, 03:55:57 AM

I did not know that disliking a map is such a bad thing to do, Knux. I mean, not being allowed to say "hey this map is bad or not fun, and here are some reasons" would basically make this thread not possible.

Well, have some useless credit for trying, Beed28, Knux and Max. I still don't really like either of your Wave Man maps.

<Something was written here. It isn't here anymore.>

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Tengu on November 14, 2013, 05:05:00 AM

Well I don't think Alice/YD/Whoever else is meaning to sound blatantly rude.

Although, instead of just saying "This map is bad, and here's why" you could say "This map is bad, here's why, and here's what I think you could do to fix it."

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on November 14, 2013, 05:06:45 AM

Quote from: "Tengu"

Although, instead of just saying "This map is bad, and here's why" you could say "This map is bad, here's why, and here's what I think you could do to fix it."

This is the main point to this topic existing.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Megaman94 on November 14, 2013, 06:16:10 AM

Woah woah woah, I thought Cutman Mike said he wasn't going to change Cut Man's map....

Anyways, I hate how in MM7SLA how the bots get stuck in the at the end of the rivers. They can't fall over the edge of the waterfall. That makes it way too easy to frag them with water wave, scorch wheel, and rain flush. I find that most of the time, I use that to my advantage and end up winning.

EDIT: Also, as mentioned in another topic, MM8AQU is too boring. The stage had a bunch of gimmicks you can use. The water that rises when you destroy the ceiling with Astro crush, water currents, and the vertical hallway with the Count Bomb GEO and Count Bomb CD

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: GameAndWatcher on November 14, 2013, 06:28:40 AM

Quote from: "Megaman94"

Woah woah woah, I thought Cutman Mike said he wasn't going to change Cut Man's map....

He isn't, Ivory is.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Megaman94 on November 14, 2013, 06:32:08 AM

Quote from: "Game&Watcher"

Quote from: "Megaman94"

Woah woah woah, I thought Cutman Mike said he wasn't going to change Cut Man's map....

He isn't, Ivory is.

I meant that he was against changing it

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Emmanuelf06 on November 14, 2013, 07:31:21 AM

mm1cut has a potential to be a better map, see the map of cutman in the singe player mode (mmsp). (:
With stairs, platforms....

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on November 14, 2013, 07:31:57 AM

He was against it. But then I made the changes on my own time and he grudgingly liked it.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Megaman94 on November 14, 2013, 08:56:32 AM

Quote from: "Ivory"

He was against it. But then I made the changes on my own time and he grudgingly liked it.

Well, I am glad he had a change of heart. MM1CUT was too plain.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on November 14, 2013, 12:30:33 PM

Quote from: "*Alice"

I did not know that disliking a map is such a bad thing to do, Knux. I mean, not being allowed to say "hey this map is bad or not fun, and here are some reasons" would basically make this thread not possible.

Well, have some useless credit for trying, Beed28, Knux and Max. I still don't really like either of your Wave Man maps.

And there it is again. I gave you a chance to explain why it was a bad map, but since you can't come up with something concrete, my point still stands. That you liked them or not is an entirely separate matter. I thought I made that clear enough for people to avoid logical fallacies, but I guess I'm asking for feedback where I won't get it.

Guys, seriously. Avoid this kinda shit. Most of us are willing to listen, but without any concrete feedback, we can't do much about it other than maybe sit around and procrastinate. Of course though, this is under the assumption that if you found a map that you thought was bad, you want a better one.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: MusashiAA on November 14, 2013, 03:47:01 PM

Knux, stop trying to defend yourself. That's going to end up derailing this topic into a mapping fistfight. You can tell people how you feel in PMs, not fucking here. You'll end up wasting a good thread.

I'm still witnessing the v3 map changes, and have seen the new map changes for v4, and it seems there is a strong motivation to replace most quadrilateral arenas like MM2HEA or funnel arenas like MM6WIN. A thing I think is unnecessary, as it compromises map variety and could push up the overall difficulty. A map with a very minimalistic layout isn't really bad if you distribute terrain elevation properly without changing the layout. Not only that, but minimalistic layouts are ok if you leave room for people to take a breather between encounters (a huge problem with current MM1CUT).

I think that is all I can say for now. Just don't be overzealous about replacing old maps because they're square-ish and have minimalistic layouts. Find other reasons to change those. MM2HEA is fine, MM1CUT was not.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Messatsu on November 14, 2013, 05:10:20 PM

I think the important thing to take away is that if you have an issue with ANY map, then it helps if you are specific on what it is you'd like to see changed.

 For example: I still feel that Dive Man's map is kinda blah compared to many others.  Mainly because it's a big open water area with one other room.  There's certainly fun to be had, especially with Astro Crush where it is.  It really needs to have more of Dive Man's gimmicks, such as the water moving up and down, maybe have some platforms above the water containing goodies.  It's certainly not the worst map, and since Mike flattened it out a bit, it plays much better.  However, I feel that the map has more potential than what's there.

On a side note: I actually had the most fun playing Knux's Wave map out of all of them.  I felt each of them brought something unique to the table.  Knux's had the best land combat, YD's had the least frustrating and most clever use of the wave bike gimmick and Beed's struck a pretty good balance of the old design and more land.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: cybersavior on November 14, 2013, 05:53:20 PM

As it concerns argument over what maps are good and which aren't

I feel that its all opinion based, some people like the wide open Paintball arena style maps like were made popular in the Unreal tournament series,
others happen to like maps that have multiple hallways and routes with various cover and even the odd hiding place giving them a feel of a Goldeneye/Perfect Dark feel.

Neither viewpoint is wrong or right, its just personal preference, I personally do not like use of gimmicks too much, as I feel they are sometimes over used, but some people do?

I personally prefer maps in the style of the complex or even mazelike layout of Golden eye/Perfect Dark, versus Wide open Paintball arena style maps.

We are all entitled to our opinions, we all have things we would have done different about maps that were made, this is our opportunity to share that, if someone disagrees don't take it too personally, some people have already voiced differing opinions of things I mentioned, and that's fine, they are all opinions nobody is right or wrong. If you do have an opinion though, give details to back it up.

Maybe some of the new maps will be variants, but even if maps get replaced, I am sure the originals will eventually be incorporated into either the Legacy Map Pack or some other form of Nostalgic map pack some time down the road, all in all we will just have more maps, and that can never be a bad thing.

 :)

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Tfp BreakDown on November 14, 2013, 06:17:29 PM

The only map that I could to be changed is bright. Mostly for the navigating the pitch darkness when the wattons are shot. Personally I would like to see an easier way to navigate in the dark. And maybe have it so the pits are easy to fall in when it's dark.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on November 14, 2013, 07:34:16 PM

Quote from: "Musashi"

Knux, stop trying to defend yourself.

I think I'm misunderstood here. I was talking about giving feedback instead of just saying a map is bad because feedback is more productive. And that is exactly what Ivory made this thread for, so I'm hardly derailing it.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on November 14, 2013, 08:00:18 PM

Quote from: "Tfp BreakDown"

The only map that I could to be changed is bright. Mostly for the navigating the pitch darkness when the wattons are shot. Personally I would like to see an easier way to navigate in the dark. And maybe have it so the pits are easy to fall in when it's dark.

I've been recommending this for a long while but nobody ever seems to tell me what they think of the idea: Take the stairs from Brightman's Remixed map. They glow in the dark when the lights are shot out so you can still navigate the map when it's dark, still more difficult than when the lights are on (as should be) but not just stumbling around without any clue of your position.

(click to show/hide)

(http://i44.tinypic.com/357hcp3.png)

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on November 14, 2013, 08:02:44 PM

You know what else is annoying about the lights going out? When the automap goes poof during the blackout.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ceridran on November 14, 2013, 08:02:56 PM

Quote from: "Linnie"

Quote from: "Tfp BreakDown"

The only map that I could to be changed is bright. Mostly for the navigating the pitch darkness when the wattons are shot. Personally I would like to see an easier way to navigate in the dark. And maybe have it so the pits are easy to fall in when it's dark.

I've been recommending this for a long while but nobody ever seems to tell me what they think of the idea: Take the stairs from Brightman's Remixed map. They glow in the dark when the lights are shot out so you can still navigate the map when it's dark, still more difficult than when the lights are on (as should be) but not just stumbling around without any clue of your position.

(click to show/hide)

(http://i44.tinypic.com/357hcp3.png)

Base it off MM4BRIX, but rework the size to make it smaller, while also keeping it fun.

The existing model of MM4BRI is pretty bad, and not because of when the lights are turned on and off.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: MusashiAA on November 14, 2013, 09:01:52 PM

Knux:

(click to show/hide)

the topic is to give proper feedback on vanilla maps so that they can be considered for revamping, not to give proper feedback on any maps. In your case, the discussion was preferences between your Waveman map and other two's, so there's a bit of a self-defense too. I don't like doing this shit, this is backseat modding I'm doing over here. Please.

On MM4BRI: that map's navigation is terrible. The flow is very jump-dependant, a feature that is incredibly irk on DooM. DooM jumping is made for long jumps, not high jumps. I think there's also not enough room for people to gain enough speed on each slab. Normal people don't perceive hopping as an essential mean of navigation. The middle area is the only area that allows people to calm down, except when its dark.

The entire "lights off" mechanic is fine. It's the map layout that makes it so dreadful. If navigation is already a problem while lights are on, imagine the nightmare while they're off. The terror of navigating around MM4BRI while lights are off is so huge, people actually conceive to stop fighting and wait out the blackout in middle, hidden somewhere while others try to fight their way up stairs they can't see. This turns middle as a "neutral" zone during blackouts, where people avoid fighting until the lights come back.

I would suggest adding Thunder Claw into the map's weapon layout, and Thunder Claw pegs above the staircases so that people can just "Bionic Commando" their way up. Not only that, but TClaw pegs would also need to NOT disappear during the blackout. If not, I would suggest applying a MM2MET staircase modification to MM4BRI staircases, except that the flat slopes would be on the sides of the staircases, and the slope position would be mirrored for the other side of the map.

EDIT: Now that we're talking "Bionic Commando": have you guys ever considered making Wire Item a Thunder Claw that causes little damage but functons like a proper hookshot? Instead of shooting straight up and from your body, why not make Wire Item shoot the projectile anywhere you aim at (thus, as if you shot the wire from your buster), and then propel you up and forward? Something similar to Copy Robot's (was it his?) oldest Thunder Claw version, but also propelling you upwards if that's where you aimed the wire.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on November 14, 2013, 10:00:31 PM

Quote from: "MusashiAA"

EDIT: Now that we're talking "Bionic Commando": have you guys ever considered making Wire Item a Thunder Claw that causes little damage but functons like a proper hookshot? Instead of shooting straight up and from your body, why not make Wire Item shoot the projectile anywhere you aim at (thus, as if you shot the wire from your buster), and then propel you up and forward? Something similar to Copy Robot's (was it his?) oldest Thunder Claw version, but also propelling you upwards if that's where you aimed the wire.

Wire used to function like that(sans the damage), but it got changed to its current form because it made it way way way easier to wire away while keeping your aim on someone.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: SmashTheEchidna on November 14, 2013, 10:14:28 PM

Wait, did you actually have a legitimate hookshot type of weapon/item that worked? Because I would love to see it, regardless of it being wire adapter or not.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on November 14, 2013, 10:18:36 PM

Well, not in wire adaptor. I just referring to wire adaptor being more aimable in the past. Magic Card was planned at one point to grab items, but it was rather complex to be practical to do, so it doesn't. (assuming it worked to begin with).

Anyways, this has nothing to do with the purpose of this thread.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Jakeinator on November 15, 2013, 12:29:37 AM

A map I really feel needs a rework is Flashman, the layout is fine, just expand the areas just a tiny bit and flow would be better, also like 1 more room/area would be really appreciated because when there's a really populated server, especially saxton, its just a complete shitfest because of its cramped, small size.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Kapus on November 15, 2013, 12:35:10 AM

Quote from: "SmashTheEchidna"

Wait, did you actually have a legitimate hookshot type of weapon/item that worked? Because I would love to see it, regardless of it being wire adapter or not.

Thunder Claw actually worked similar to this back in really early stages of development. It was overpowered mobility-wise, but it was also a heck of a lot of fun.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: MusashiAA on November 15, 2013, 12:39:56 AM

Oh, MM2FLA is fine. It might be cramped, but it's not anywhere as close to being current MM1CUT: THAT is a bad small-sized map. It's not that small-sized maps are a bad design (MM1FIR and MM3SPA come to mind), but I think expanding it a little bit won't hurt. Leave the layout intact, and just make the map a little bigger.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on November 15, 2013, 08:26:57 AM

So, as part of my new direction of providing forewarning; Bright Man has been placed on the mapping slaughter table for a complete layout revamp.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on November 15, 2013, 02:43:14 PM

That sounds fine, I'd recommend the previously stated idea of incorporating the glowing stairs from the Remixed map into this new layout.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: MusashiAA on November 15, 2013, 03:54:58 PM

Quote from: "Ivory"

So, as part of my new direction of providing forewarning; Bright Man has been placed on the mapping slaughter table for a complete layout revamp.

I did that.

Hopefully the uphill battle concept still exists in new MM4BRI. I had no problems with that, it's the staircase navigation that is a pain.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on November 15, 2013, 05:55:07 PM

I was going to discuss MM6CEN, but then I remembered Mike had mentioned something about modifying it. In any case, I think we can all agree that Centaur Flash surrounded by four W Tanks, no easy way up other than constantly jumping the big steps and a huge open area deserves a remake.

EDIT: Confirmed something's gonna happen to it.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Gumballtoid on November 15, 2013, 08:30:46 PM

A handful of points I compiled. If anyone feels like expanding on these, go nuts, but this is all I really have to say on them.

MM1BOM's symmetrical structure is a little strange. The map is fairly solid, but I often have trouble finding out where I am since both sides are identical, as far as I can tell.

MM2BUB is hands-down one of the most boring maps I can think of. This map is more like a maze than a place where you'd be fighting. I can never tell where I am, since it all looks nearly the same. There are also spinies in places that could do without them, but that's the least of my concerns.

MM4DIV, I agree with. The map is structurally boring and is almost entirely reliant on Dive Missile or Astro Crush in terms of weapon placement. Every time I play on that map, those two weapons overshadow all else.

The skybox in MM5GYR burns my retinas.

MM6FLA has a fairly solid layout, but it could definitely do with a little more breathing room. Instant-death oil pits in tight spaces is a bit much.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Caprice on November 15, 2013, 08:50:04 PM

Quote from: "Ivory"

Bright Man has been placed on the mapping slaughter table for a complete layout revamp.

I love you.

Quote from: "MusashiAA"

I did that.

I love you.

But yeah, like Gumballtoid said, MM2BUB isn't quite fun to play in. Maybe include some larger ground for fighting instead of having it all take place in straight hallways.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Lagman on November 15, 2013, 09:19:41 PM

Quote from: "Tengu"

I swear I'm the only person that actually likes current Waveman.

Nah, I love Waveman's stage. It's actually my third favorite one.

(click to show/hide)

1. Springman: I can't stop bouncing on those two walls that are so close together.
2. Knightman: You can't tell me you don't love the big green wall.
3. Waveman: Dem wavebike chases.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Kapus on November 15, 2013, 10:02:07 PM

Quote from: "Lagman"

1. Springman: I can't stop bouncing on those two walls that are so close together.

Jump.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on November 15, 2013, 10:46:20 PM

Quote from: "Kapus"

Quote from: "Lagman"

1. Springman: I can't stop bouncing on those two walls that are so close together.

Jump.

I think by "can't stop" he means he doesn't want to stop, since it was in his top three.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: King Dumb on November 16, 2013, 06:54:39 PM

MM5WAV

I would set forth an argument about why the choice of this map as the Wave Man winner of the SWBT mapping competition was not sufficiently justified, but I will not, because I am certain it will be fruitless in this thread (but I still hold my position). Instead of comparing the current MM5WAV to what were potential options, I will analyze the current stage by itself.

I will begin with the least objectionable issue I have, and that is concerning the weapons. As Yellow Devil pointed out, MM5WAV features a huge variety of weapons, many of which overlap one another in terms of utility. For example, Dive Missile and Magnet Missile; Blizzard Attack and Thunder Bolt; Water Balloon and Water Wave. The weapon selection needs to be cut down considerably, both to reduce overlap and because such a large number of weapons is intrinsically undesirable. Additionally, Water Wave is both overshadowed (by Water Balloon, mainly) and intrinsically suboptimal on the current MM5WAV. The layout of both forts reduces the areas in which Water Wave may be employed effectively, especially the double-level floor. The Snake Man-like fort is more conducive to Water Wave usage, but the small and cramped nature of the fort makes it easy to escape from a Water Wave user. The best locations to use Water Wave are in the U-shaped hallways leading to and from the warp pipes, which I will discuss later.

The amount of weapons is a problem; inventory interference as well as functional overlap result from such a large number. It needs to be reduced, and Water Wave should be the most prominent weapon.


Secondly, the double-layered fortress. The bubbles are too slow and are obsolete because of the ladders on the sides, which are faster unless you dropped down through the warp pipe right when a bubble appears. They need to be sped up. Also, this fortress is trying to be a bit bigger than it actually is. The full second level gives a huge feeling of cramped-ness. I would suggest restricting the second floor to the the perimeter of the room and leaving more space in the middle for free fighting. To make this space more interesting (and to increase Water Wave usage) you could make the elevation gradually increase toward the back of the fortress.


The Ballade Cracker fortress is a little better in terms of feeling cramped. However, the pipes in this fortress are at the very sides of the main room, which means one side of them is extremely cramped. The placement of Gemini Laser at this location means it is common to see Gemini Laser kills between the pipe and the wall. This isn't inherently a bad thing, but this room would be a lot more interesting if the pipes ran across through the middle, going perpendicular to how they generally go now. As it stands now, the Ballade Cracker pillar is almost impossible to mount in a fierce Deathmatch situation, especially with those spikes immediately above. I don't even think Ballade Cracker is necessary on this map, so I would just scrap that entire set up. I think transverse pipes across the center of the room (with some right angles in them) and maybe one pipe that loops down from the ceiling (and is raised up from the others) would make this room a lot more fun. I would also just make the main room bigger so you can have pipes and still have some general combat space as well.


The U-shaped hallways leading to and from the warp pipe in both fortresses would be almost entirely negligible except for two reasons: they offer Blizzard Attack and Thunder Bolt, and the big health. After removing one of the aforementioned weapons, I would move it to a different location, and scrap the U-halls entirely. The main rooms of each fortress should be conducive to Water Wave use (as described above), and the warp pipes should be more visible from the main combat. The drop-off location in the other fortress should also be changed, as right now it's a deathtrap in fierce Deathmatch situations. I'd make the drop-off locations up some stairs near the back of the fortresses, and the teleporter locations should be moved to a new alcove in the front wall of the fortresses; this means that it's harder for someone to just keep teleporting between fortresses.


Now, the wave bike section. These were my least favorite wave bikes out of all three Wave Man replacement contenders, because YD's were less frustrating and more enjoyable in utility (entering pipes to different levels of the tower, riding ramps to weapons on the outskirts) and Knux's were more fun as well (using ramps, navigating buildings, etc). These wavebikes are meant only to travel to and from the center island and between fortresses, so here's what I suggest (this is something that I know Messatsu has thought about as well):

Each fortress should have 4 wave bike pipes. The two inner pipes will directly face two pipes on the center island. The two outer pipes will directly face the out pipes of the opposite fortress. That way, you can get in an outer piper to travel to the other fortress, or an inner pipe to travel to the center island. The purpose of the pipes directly facing each other is to allow for "wave bike jousting" so some wave bike combat remains. You should be able to speed up, slow down, and jump in the bikes. The pipes themselves should be changed to work like the pipes in YD's Wave Man map (you run into them instead of jumping into them/hitting a wall).

The center island should be changed a bit. The towers that Bass Buster and Magnet Missile sit on should be pushed farther toward the sides (to make a direct line between the outer wave bike pipes of the two fortresses). Since you can't get to these items by crashing into the towers, add some 3D floor platforms to reach them from the center island. The center island itself should be inverted (lowered center instead of raised center), with something valuable in the center of the lowered part.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Hallan Parva on November 16, 2013, 07:17:42 PM

I think King Dumb just won the whole thread. Lovely read, glad I didn't skip a single part. Even though to most people, non-turning bikes would seem like a major gimp, the introduction of variable speeds and "jousting matches" actually makes them an improvement. Actually, a perfect weapon to seat in the center island's pit would be Top Spin, for the purpose of bike jousting -- and it'd be difficult to Top Spin approach someone wielding Water Wave, which adds value to the "featured weapon" of the stage.

On that note, I feel like the bikes' movement should be independent of the player riding it; that is, a player could be able to turn around and shoot someone pursuing them, but the bikes would still travel in their designated linear direction. This might remove the ability to slow down or speed up the bikes, but being able to shoot someone to your side or your rear would be a valuable addition.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on November 16, 2013, 07:43:13 PM

Wait, a fixed path and the path being two-way?

That sounds like a disaster.


I like the other ideas, though.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Balrog on November 16, 2013, 07:57:03 PM

Quote from: "Linnie"

Wait, a fixed path and the path being two-way?

That sounds like a disaster.


I like the other ideas, though.

It is a disaster. Not only will you have people slamming into each other like nobody's business, it's also just annoying and restrictive. I believe (and believed when the SWBT compo was going) that the fast, crashy wavebikes are what makes old MM5WAV cool.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on November 17, 2013, 05:04:13 AM

Alright, I feel this is a minor thing that needs to be changed:

Right now the flowing water in MMCTF08 kills you:

(http://i41.tinypic.com/scu9o7.png)

There's no indication that the water should kill you, since the water normally just carries you away. Since it's a fast current and close to a pit, I believe they should work like normal rapid water and carry you into the pit instead.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Lagman on November 17, 2013, 04:40:18 PM

Yeah, that would make sense, but then why would there be a platform with an item there? Or would you just remove the platform?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on November 17, 2013, 06:28:43 PM

I don't think the platform would need to be removed, though perhaps it could be moved in a way that it's harder to reach, since there isn't as large a penalty for failing to get it.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on November 19, 2013, 12:48:33 AM

I agree completely, Linnie. It feels wrong to get up there from a linear path to potentially die from water that looks harmless. Although I'm not sure whether or not we're allowed to comment on CTF maps, I think they need comments on them as well. *coughicyfortscough*

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on November 19, 2013, 01:28:31 AM

Well, the OP doesn't mention it has to be specifically DM maps, so I figured CTF maps were game. They are, right?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on November 19, 2013, 01:32:00 AM

[8:43:54 PM] Knux: I'm gonna ask this since it wasn't specified
[8:44:17 PM] Knux: Are we allowed to comment on core CTF maps in the comments thread?
[8:49:51 PM] Knux: Welp, saw a comment on one right after asking this, so I kept going.
[8:55:32 PM] Ivory: yea

It appears we can comment on CTF maps.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: TheDoc on November 19, 2013, 03:41:24 AM

Quote from: "Caprice"

like Gumballtoid said, MM2BUB isn't quite fun to play in.

Quote from: "TheDoc"

Imo, MM2BUB needs a change.
1.) How hard is it to find people in MM2BUB, especially in a duel, and fight them in that cramped little space?
2.) The spikes are so annoying. SO ANNOYING. In trying to run away from an enemy or just rushing to a particular spot in the map, more often then not you'll run straight into the spikes. Bots run into them, too, but that's really not as important.
3.) I agree that a section above water in front of the big waterfall would be so cool. My best memory of Bubbleman's stage (for whatever reason) is starting out in front of that waterfall and then re-entering the waterfall section to before facing Bubbleman, and it'd be very nostalgic to add to the map.

I just.....I just..... :cry:

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Lagman on November 21, 2013, 01:53:56 PM

Quote from: "TheDoc"

I agree that a section above water in front of the big waterfall would be so cool. My best memory of Bubbleman's stage (for whatever reason) is starting out in front of that waterfall and then re-entering the waterfall section to before facing Bubbleman, and it'd be very nostalgic to add to the map.

(click to show/hide)

(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Fry-Shut-Up-and-Take-My-Money-Futurama.gif)

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Superjustinbros on November 22, 2013, 05:23:54 AM

I think the Bubble and Dive Man maps could be redone to include some dry areas (since in their original games there were a few areas where Mega Man wasn't fully submerged in their respective stages). Bubble Man's stage is also brutal for (and I hate to bring this up) Saxton Hale, as Hales always have to Super Jump up to any ledge and it just wastes time.

Personally I don't find Cutman's stage to be any hazardous; a simple first stage to get newcomers used to the game. If there's anything I feel it and Gutsman's stage should have, I'd personally vote for a skybox (as the MMSP Cutman Stage has one, and so does the Gutsman map from the Powered Up expansion).

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on November 26, 2013, 09:50:00 PM

Since this thread is relatively quiet, I will try something new. I'll just ask the community for their feedback/preference/what not on random maps that either I or someone else brought up for potential work.

So let's start off with MM1BOM - Bomb Man.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Caprice on November 26, 2013, 09:54:35 PM

I'd replace those pits with something more fun, like lowered ground with health or other items in them. The map's pretty alright with that out of the way though. Kinda lacking on variety, but still alright.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on November 26, 2013, 09:55:18 PM

The pits inside the stage are quite the hazard. I've lost count of the times I've turned a corner and fell in one. I'd suggest doing something about it. But as Mess pointed out on Skype, the layout is too flat for Hyper Bomb to be used effectively.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on November 26, 2013, 10:21:04 PM

I think it's a decent enough map. It's simple and easy to traverse, though like others have said the ground is a little flat.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: VGS2 on November 27, 2013, 01:05:06 AM

I love those giant balls in the background, but maybe the place could be a bit more lively with some Killer Bullets flying about in the background and/or some Bombombs (I don't know either) hopping out of the pits (Grenade Man style), or something like that?

Gameplay-wise though, I actually don't mind the stage that much, so I'm not a good person to ask for that.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: fortegigasgospel on November 27, 2013, 01:15:21 AM

The map is too bland. The holes aren't a problem for me, as much as the map has such few textures and to simple a design. Every time it showed up in a rotations I'd pretty much say "Ugh, lets get this over with."
Maybe some more textures. And make use of those raised walls maybe? People are complaining about the holes so maybe add a raised area in some of there spots instead?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on November 27, 2013, 01:27:00 AM

Rails could simply be added to said holes. There are rails all around the level to keep people from falling into the surrounding void, so I don't see why not.

In fact, if it had to come to that, I'd simply remove said inner pits as they're too much of a nuisance.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: MusashiAA on November 27, 2013, 01:49:11 AM

Oh, MM1BOM? Now here's something funny you could try doing:

Expand the center area, and turn it into the center area from the v2c MM1 Wily Stage 3/4 map: in a sense, you add "uneven terrain" to the map as a gimmick to highlight Hyper Bomb's capacities. Remove the pits, or make the edge corners more traverse-friendly (add rails around some sides of the pits, cut the corners so the pits have an octagonal shape). I think removing the pits isn't necessary: maybe it's just a matter of making the adyacent structures not prone to making players fall into the pit (make the passageways that border the pits wider, remodel the pyramids so people can easily see the pits). Also, you could add this enemy (http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Bombomb) on those pits as a gimmick to the map: these would jump from out of the pits, explode, and launch little bombs that would hurt those who don't want to traverse the chaos inside the center area (it would also serve as a reminder to people fighting on the pyramids to watch out for the pits below).

In short: make the center area a huge funnel-shaped arena with Hyper Bomb in the middle, reshape the pits into octagonal shapes, and maybe add the Bombomb enemy from MM1 as a gimmick.

As a side note, maybe you could introduce an odd thematic to his map: since his stage is apparently identified as "Orb City", maybe the map would only have orb-shaped weapons?

EDIT: Another side note: this is BOMB MAN'S MAP we're talking about here. I think it should be all about bombs, fireworks, explosions, and mayhem. A funnel-shaped arena in the center of the map makes more and more sense in my head.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Hallan Parva on November 27, 2013, 01:56:47 AM

His stage is canonically referred to as Orb City? I thought that was just MegaMan's Hyperball screwing around. Huh.

Anyway, I was going to suggest making the center of the stage a giant gold ball (Wily Wars made those playable and gave 'em textures, so why not?) but such a drastic change / using not Mega Man 1 textures might be a bit too far-fetched for the core. If it does get considered though, the ball would have entrances on its sides that lead to an octagonal playing field, similar in shape to the current MM1BOM's outside areas, and the inner orb room would have a funnel-ish pit shape to it (because it's a ball, duh) to emphasize play with Hyper Bomb and other gravity-based weapons like Napalm Bomb or Water Wave. Search Snake could stand some love in more maps and it would be a great counter while stuck in the middle pit or to attack players across pits (around the octagon perimeter), and Crystal Eye would be great for the potential to rack up a spare frag in the center orb room, with its usefulness diminishing when used outside the orb on the octagon walkways.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Goomba98 on November 27, 2013, 11:29:49 PM

MM6CEN has 4 W tanks around Centaur Flash.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on November 28, 2013, 01:07:55 AM

That has been said to death and Mike has stated his interest in remaking that map already.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Lagman on November 28, 2013, 10:19:22 PM

Quote from: "VGS2"

I love those giant balls in the background, but maybe the place could be a bit more lively with some Killer Bullets flying about in the background and/or some Bombombs (I don't know either) hopping out of the pits (Grenade Man style), or something like that?

Gameplay-wise though, I actually don't mind the stage that much, so I'm not a good person to ask for that.

WAIT! Those Killer Bills can have a secret Easter Egg in it! Just like the Ghouls & Ghosts "Satan" Flying with the bats in Shademan's stage, we can have a Bullet Bill in the pack! Now what song can we add to the Easter Egg... Maybe, like an 8-bit Mario Party Minigame song? I dunno...

Any other ideas?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: VGS2 on November 28, 2013, 10:47:10 PM

Quote from: "Lagman"

Quote from: "Some douche"

I love those giant balls in the background, but maybe Killer Bullets?

WAIT! Those Killer Bills can have a secret Easter Egg in it! Just like the Ghouls & Ghosts "Satan" Flying with the bats in Shademan's stage, we can have a Bullet Bill in the pack! Now what song can we add to the Easter Egg... Maybe, like an 8-bit Mario Party Minigame song? I dunno...

Any other ideas?

Hmm... Maybe Bomberman?

(click to show/hide)

Either way, regardless of the theme, 'tis a good idea for an easter egg.  :)

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Megaman94 on November 29, 2013, 04:13:01 AM

Weapons: I feel that the easy-to-get Homing Sniper makes that stage too easy. Maybe make Homing Sniper a little harder to get.  The Hard Knuckle in the middle of the stage makes it seem like that is the important weapon. (Just like the atomic fire in the middle of MM1CUT). If the layout were to stay the same, put hyper bomb where hard knuckle is and vice versa.

Layout: The corridors leading to the middle make hyper bomb too hard to dodge.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on November 29, 2013, 07:09:39 AM

Those corridors to the middle make ANYTHING hard to dodge. I think this is alright, seeing as Hard Knuckle is in the middle.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Lagman on November 29, 2013, 08:44:07 PM

Quote from: "VGS2"

Quote from: "Lagman"

Quote from: "Some douche"

I love those giant balls in the background, but maybe Killer Bullets?

WAIT! Those Killer Bills can have a secret Easter Egg in it! Just like the Ghouls & Ghosts "Satan" Flying with the bats in Shademan's stage, we can have a Bullet Bill in the pack! Now what song can we add to the Easter Egg... Maybe, like an 8-bit Mario Party Minigame song? I dunno...

Any other ideas?

Hmm... Maybe Bomberman?

(click to show/hide)

Either way, regardless of the theme, 'tis a good idea for an easter egg.  :)

Yeah, but for that, we would need a bomberman enemy... Or we can find a Mario-themed bomb-ish song... That's why I suggested Mario Party

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: SmashTheEchidna on November 29, 2013, 10:39:03 PM

How about Bob-omb Battle Field?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Messatsu on November 29, 2013, 10:52:54 PM

And the topic of discussion has turned to an overused easter egg that already has it's place in Star Man's map....and Shade mans?  I think we should be focusing on layouts and to a lesser extent weapon placement.  Like for example: The Rush Coil in front of the Time Stopper in MM2DW1 should probably be moved to the far end of the map.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on November 29, 2013, 11:35:30 PM

Quote from: "SmashTheEchidna"

How about Bob-omb Battle Field?

FUND IT.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: VGS2 on November 30, 2013, 12:23:48 AM

Quote from: "Lagman"

Yeah, but for that, we would need a bomberman enemy... Or we can find a Mario-themed bomb-ish song... That's why I suggested Mario Party

Yeah, true enough I suppose. While Bomberman music would be a funnier choice of theme, everything considered, there aren't many iconic or memorable things in Bomberman that would make a good egg trigger (Recognise any of this shit? (http://www.spriters-resource.com/resources/sheets/8/7884.png) Yeah, case in point).
Plus, Killer Bullets are basically rip offs of the Bullet Bills (known as Killers in Japan, dohoho), so it makes even more sense to make a reference to that.
Besides, I'll admit that I'd be the happiest little elf if Smash's song suggestion got in instead. So yeah, if an easter egg does make it in, you have my vote! That song is all kinds of happy times. :)

On the gameplay side of things, if you were to get rid of the little death pits, why not just replace 'em with a big massive moat-like ditch that runs below the sides of the central building's walls? Then you could replace the little pathways that lead into the corridors with bridges, or something too.
It'd give hyper bomb more of a meaning, with the whole 'death from above' thing going on, and it would be more shiz to explore, maybe even continuing on to the entire bottom of the central area. Like a second floor!
Unless this is all just a horrible idea that'll overcomplicate things, I dunno.

tl;dr: I'm a crazy foo' with crazy ideas.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Lagman on November 30, 2013, 02:58:41 AM

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: "Linnie"

Quote from: "SmashTheEchidna"

How about Bob-omb Battle Field?

FUND IT.

(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Fry-Shut-Up-and-Take-My-Money-Futurama.gif)

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: The_Broker on November 30, 2013, 03:28:46 AM

Lagman, please refrain from posting picture-only replies in these forums.

And I suggest taking the idea of a new easter egg to another thread as this one deals more in balance suggestions than non-Mega Man related aesthetics.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Lagman on November 30, 2013, 01:20:15 PM

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

 :(

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Watzup7856 on November 30, 2013, 08:44:38 PM

Quote from: "Lagman"

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

 :(

(click to show/hide)

(http://wikicheats.gametrailers.com/images/0/0d/Super_Smash_Bros_Brawl_Ness_01.jpg)

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Korby on November 30, 2013, 08:47:11 PM

what a constructive post that does not go against the rules the_broker just pointed out and also contributes to the topic at hand.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on November 30, 2013, 08:58:16 PM

I think Bomb Man has been discussed enough now, so I'd like to bring up some stuff about MM7CLO.

The rain is a huge problem for two reasons. It produces lag, and the wind sweeps players off into pits because the direction can't be seen. This results in being forced to stick to areas under roofs, or risk running outside to somewhere else, which isn't good for gameplay. What I suggest is keeping the rain effect to the skybox and getting rid of the annoying wind. It might not feel a lot like MM7, but it will sure help the map be more playable.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Korby on November 30, 2013, 09:02:23 PM

Quote from: "Knux"

...and the wind sweeps players off into pits because the direction can't be seen.

...the rain falls in the direction of the wind.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on November 30, 2013, 09:30:23 PM

It's still annoying when turning around in the rain, though.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on November 30, 2013, 09:37:30 PM

Quote from: "Knux"

I think Bomb Man has been discussed enough now, so I'd like to bring up some stuff about MM7CLO.

The rain is a huge problem for two reasons. It produces lag, and the wind sweeps players off into pits because the direction can't be seen. This results in being forced to stick to areas under roofs, or risk running outside to somewhere else, which isn't good for gameplay. What I suggest is keeping the rain effect to the skybox and getting rid of the annoying wind. It might not feel a lot like MM7, but it will sure help the map be more playable.

Or we could replace rain with snow, rather than making the stage harder let's make it easier by covering the platforms with snow and making them more visible.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on November 30, 2013, 10:04:19 PM

You do realize snow already exists on Cloud Man, right?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Tfp BreakDown on November 30, 2013, 10:13:34 PM

On the subject of Cloud:
The skybox for the snow effect could change. I don't really like the re-use of the rain backdrop for the snow effect I would think you would either give it a new backdrop or re-use the regular backdrop for that.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: tsukiyomaru0 on November 30, 2013, 10:31:32 PM

on the subject of Cloudman, better ideas for the weathers:
Sunny (When hit by fire or light weapons): Causes a brief flash and returns weather to "normal"
Rain (When hit by water weapons or any weapon during "normal" weather): Glass platform disappears, wind pushes players while they are not standing on a surface, sometimes a lightning may happen and reveal the glass platforms for a brief moment.
Snow (When hit by ice weapons): Glass platforms are perfectly visible, movement becomes a little slippery (like in MM2FLA) and snowflakes may hinder player's sight.

EDIT: Because the problem on MM7CLO is (and was) never the layout, but rather the fact that the wind is the greatest enemy at all times.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on November 30, 2013, 10:53:52 PM

Quote from: "Ivory"

You do realize snow already exists on Cloud Man, right?

It does?

I asked people if it did and they said no.

You can activate it by shooting the weather machine with an ice weapon, right? I have to go try it.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Lagman on December 01, 2013, 06:09:01 PM

Quote from: "tsukiyomaru0"

Sunny (When hit by fire or light weapons): Causes a brief flash and returns weather to "normal"
Rain (When hit by water weapons or any weapon during "normal" weather): Glass platform disappears, wind pushes players while they are not standing on a surface, sometimes a lightning may happen and reveal the glass platforms for a brief moment.
Snow (When hit by ice weapons): Glass platforms are perfectly visible, movement becomes a little slippery (like in MM2FLA) and snowflakes may hinder player's sight.

Um, you do realize that the glass panels should always stay, so that players don't have to be stuck on one platform, waiting for the weather to be changed, right?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: tsukiyomaru0 on December 01, 2013, 07:12:01 PM

Quote from: "Lagman"

Quote from: "tsukiyomaru0"

Sunny (When hit by fire or light weapons): Causes a brief flash and returns weather to "normal"
Rain (When hit by water weapons or any weapon during "normal" weather): Glass platform disappears, wind pushes players while they are not standing on a surface, sometimes a lightning may happen and reveal the glass platforms for a brief moment.
Snow (When hit by ice weapons): Glass platforms are perfectly visible, movement becomes a little slippery (like in MM2FLA) and snowflakes may hinder player's sight.

Um, you do realize that the glass panels should always stay, so that players don't have to be stuck on one platform, waiting for the weather to be changed, right?

By "Disappear" I mean: invisible or mostly invisible. Spologies for the lack of clarity.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Messatsu on December 01, 2013, 08:24:53 PM

If an opportunity presents itself I might give this a shot, or some variation thereof.  Gotta be fun and playable mind you.  Prior to switching to UDMF this wasn't even possible

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on December 02, 2013, 12:20:12 AM

Oh, snow has the exact same effect as rain except for the appearance of the droplets. ._.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: coolcat7022 on December 02, 2013, 01:43:58 AM

Quote from: "Linnie"

Oh, snow has the exact same effect as rain except for the appearance of the droplets. ._.

Well, you most certainly derped.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Fyone on December 02, 2013, 02:19:27 PM

In the games the snow didn't push you tho.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Messatsu on December 02, 2013, 02:27:24 PM

Neither did the rain for that matter.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on December 02, 2013, 03:30:15 PM

Quote from: "Messatsu"

Neither did the rain for that matter.

So if we have a gimmick (the wind) that most people think disturbs map flow and hinders the map, and the gimmick wasn't in the original game, why is it in the map?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Fyone on December 02, 2013, 03:30:44 PM

IIRC the rain made it harder to jump and the snow had no mobility effect, but I could be wrong.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on December 02, 2013, 03:39:05 PM

Let's get those doubts out of the way, then.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on December 02, 2013, 03:59:44 PM

Oh, so it does, then. My apologies. Still, the effect is stronger in MM8BDM than it is in the game.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Korby on December 02, 2013, 04:39:43 PM

And you don't have nearly as much knockback from being hit in this, and you don't jump as high, and you can have more than three megabuster shots on a screen...

Variations from the source game are completely fine and should be taken if the content creator deems it necessary.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on December 02, 2013, 07:22:27 PM

Very true, but people have been specifically complaining about this, and making it closer to the source would make the rain less frustrating.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: tsukiyomaru0 on December 02, 2013, 07:27:38 PM

But, really, the wind as is? It is an overkill. It's also the reason that made previous MM7CLO borderline unplayable: the moment you got out you were swept into the nearest pit. Now, the wind method, while I DO like, should be toned down to MM&B level. Then, in Robot Museum in the MM&B expansion, the wind COULD exist at all times.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: fortegigasgospel on December 02, 2013, 09:40:23 PM

The old Cloud was also much, MUCH smaller then the current one. Part of the problem is people love gunning for the weather controller, and killing everyones FPS in the process. If it didn't make such horrible FPS lag then the wind's strength wouldn't be an issue. Also maybe add some railings on some (read some) edges.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Korby on December 03, 2013, 12:28:44 AM

The problem with the old cloudman was that it was two big busterwalls, primarily in team games.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Lagman on December 09, 2013, 10:42:51 PM

Busterwalls? What are those?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on December 09, 2013, 10:44:00 PM

When there's a room with only one entrance and a team of people shoot Mega Buster at said entrance so that nobody else gets in.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: CopShowGuy on December 09, 2013, 11:43:27 PM

Quote from: "Knux"

When there's a room with only one entrance and a team of people shoot Mega Buster at said entrance so that nobody else gets in.

Skull Man's Skull Barrier room.

Title: I'm not even done yet.
Post by: King Dumb on December 26, 2013, 05:02:12 PM

Quote from: "Balrog"

Quote from: "Linnie"

Wait, a fixed path and the path being two-way?

That sounds like a disaster.


I like the other ideas, though.

It is a disaster. Not only will you have people slamming into each other like nobody's business, it's also just annoying and restrictive. I believe (and believed when the SWBT compo was going) that the fast, crashy wavebikes are what makes old MM5WAV cool.

Pretty much nobody else feels this way. And not just "brainless kids who don't know how to navigate with them", but really just most people ever.

EDIT: Clarification: Meaning about the crashy wavebikes being the best part.

Anyway, moving on! CTF maps! Hurrah!

MMCTF01

The Gyro Fans in the bases are in awkward spot. I understand that the Quick Boomerang pits are supposed to be a death trap of sorts as a final challenge to get to/from the flag, but the Gyro Fan's placement is artificially making it harder than it should be to get out of that pit. Too often, trying to maneuver around somebody as you go up the fan results in you simply not making it to the ledge and falling back into the pit. I suggest a number of fixes: raise the ceiling in that area (so that holding jump as you step onto the fan doesn't make you bump your head), or add one more fan on either side to the one currently present. One of those should solve the problem.

Plant Barrier and two extremely accessible W-Tanks (per team!) is a very bad idea for a CTF map. Sure, it technically lends this map its own particular kind of playstyle (you basically know that any flag holder worth his/her salt has Plant Barrier and at least 3 W-Tanks, two from their own base and at least one picked up with the flag), it really just isn't fun. Additionally, as such a small map, by the time you exhaust the holder's first or maybe first two W-Tanks, his/her team has killed you and the holder can grab two more W-Tanks in the time it takes you to get back.

I'd like to suggest adding Rush Coil to this map. It's useful to travel between levels and of course it is useful in the bases. I think you could place it on the ledges with the waterfalls, by Plant Barrier. Hell, Wire Adaptor could work too!

MMCTF02

The Magflies are actually slower than straferunning from one Magnet Missile to the opposite one. I'm not talking SR50, I mean normal straferunning, the kind that almost everyone knows about. This, coupled with the fact that you are much more vulnerable riding a Magfly than you are just moving normally, means they are pretty much useless. And in practice, I notice very few people using them. Speed them up, or replace them with something else, like platforms or something.

If you want to remove them from that section, but want to preserve that specific gimmick in the map somewhere, I'd suggest putting a coupel Magflies circling the center platform (where the White Flag appears), passing over the two adjacent platforms. Keep the platforms where they are though; the Magflies would serve as an alternative (not sole) method of getting the center platform, and also as a fun way to shoot at people attempting to jump there. (Note that I don't actually think this addition is necessary; only if the development team feels some strange compulsion to keep the gimmick in the map. But something definitely must be done about the current Magflies).

MMCTF04

Eddie needs to go. This is the case for every CTF map. Just because the only spawn is in the center of the map does not excuse the harm Eddie can do to an otherwise good CTF game. Remove it, or replace it with SSW's version of Eddie. At the very least, make it so CTF-Eddie cannot give you things like Charge Kick (although this map does not need *any* more weapons as it is).

Knight Crush is too close to spawn, as it is the second most effective weapon for flag defenders after Water Wave.

This map just has too many weapons. Needle Cannon, Metal Blade, Ice Slasher, Dive Missile, Dust Crusher, Gyro Attack, Ring Boomerang, Knight Crush, Crash Bomb, Air Shooter, Water Wave. That is too many for a map of this size. Admittedly this isn't an enormous problem only because it's easy just to avoid picking up half or more of these, but such functionality overlap and sheer surplus are polish-based criticisms that probably should have been fixed before the map was ever released.

MMCTF05

This isn't really about "needing work", but the ledge in the wall directly across from the flag in the Red Base is accessible, but the same ledge is blocked off in the Blue Base (the one in between the two entrances to the light/dark room).

Spark Shock aaaaaa. Personally I am not a huge fan of weapons like Crash Bomb and Spark Shock in CTF maps, but I never find many people who share that opinion (I'm not sure why, really). In any case, Crash Bomb and Spark Shock are much too close to the bases. These are by far the two best defending weapons in the map, and probably the two best defending weapons in the game. They need to be farther away from the bases.

In the gravity room, running along the side of the junk heaps that is closer to the center of the maps leads to a turn then a dead end. This is entirely pointless save for camping. I say get rid of it.

MMCTF06

Hopefully everyone is well aware by now how difficult this map becomes with high numbers of players. The narrow hallways leading the flags are absolute death traps. However, still somehow end on this map, so I don't think much needs to be done. However, I will make one suggestion that makes defending the flag take a little bit more effort. Firstly, push out the windows in those hallways so that you can jump and run along on the sill. Second, extend the windows so they run along more of the hallway, particularly near the non-base entrance. This way, prospective carriers can choose to run along the sill or along the ground, and defenders have to do more then center their view and shoot down the hallway.

Bass Buster is almost entirely useless on this map, simply because W-Tanks are abundant and Yamato Spear is readily available as an alternative. I'm not sure I have a great suggestion as a replacement. Though this map has plenty of weapons as it is.

MMCTF07

Eddie.

My biggest complaint with this map has to do with the Dust Crusher pit. As it stands, it is just too dangerous to use, at all. Moreover, the normal way to get to the flag (the nearby slope) is just so much faster and always safer. I suggest a few changes to make the Dust Crusher route a more viable alternative. Firstly, scrap the teleporter. It will be unnecessary if the following changes are made, and right now all it does is make it almost impossible to escape with the flag through the pit. (Consider this scenario: You grab the enemy flag. You don't want to go through the teleporter for risk of being telefragged, so you run down to the pit. The enemy team can go through the teleporter and stop you. This happens almost every time). Raise the ceiling of the Dust Crusher room, and replace the wider stairs with Gyro Fans. Replace the narrower stairs with a simple slope (extending it into the room so it's not so steep). Additionally, change the currently existing slopes leading toward the flag to stairs that you have to jump up.

This way, the pit is made viable in two ways: firstly, it is made less deadly and difficult to enter/leave; secondly, the alternative (normal way to flag) is made a little more difficult, by adding stairs.

The annoyance of the lindef-activated doors is not really made up for by their usage to partition the Crash Bomb-Gyro Attack hallway. I suggest gittinf rid of them. If you want to maintain the partitioned nature of these hallways, I suggest the following. Once the door is removed, just invert the wall in that center divider. In other words, where the door once was will be a wall, and on either side of the wall will be new openings to the other side of the hallway. This way, movement down this hallway isn't so much of an annoyance, but you still can't shoot down its entire length unless its down one of the sides. If you run down the hallway's center, you can avoid fire from the other section of the hallway.

MMCTF09

I like this map a lot. I will suggest removing Beat Support or moving it out of the bases. It's just too powerful for defending, especially combined with Fire Storm.

----------------

I'll probably post about the rest of the CTF maps later. Maybe.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: NemZ on December 28, 2013, 11:05:48 PM

Some thoughts on bomb?  Make it a saddle-shaped stage while keeping the symetry mostly intact.  Specifically:

1) raise two opposing sides up, and lower the other two.  use ramps in the narrow hallways.
2) make the current center dividing walls something you can walk on, and actually just an extention of the top of the new high sides.
3) add a thinner wall around the inside of the central area so that it's only possible to shoot down on it from a few fixed locations
3) eliminate the inner pits along the outside to make them a bit wider.  they should stay level with the lower sides and end in walls with ladders up to the high sides.  bombombs should attack these areas periodically.
4) the pyramids on the lower sides bring you high enough to effectively take pot shots at nearly the entire top floor (save that areas that are behind the central walls from your side)
5) the pyramids on the higher sides are inverted, becoming pits in the floor with only one way to climb out but loaded with goodies.
6) add small 'islands' out in the far corners of the map only accessible with beat abuse (perhaps golden orbs?) with some bonus weapons and a one-way teleporter back to the new 'bunker' areas created on top of the current central walls.

EDIT - actually, scratch that... just connect the low pyramids to the top with a 3d bridge and have the ramps up from the center exit through the inverted pyramids on the high sides.  should make the stage much more dynamic.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Megaman94 on December 29, 2013, 03:58:29 AM

I was playing Mega Man 6 and realized stuff about the MM6 Maps...

MM6PLA does not have the springs used in the end of the stage.

MM6KNI does not have the bouncy wheels

MM6TOM could use a metool dispenser prop since it was in the stage twice

MM6BLI Does not have the count bombs that were used in the end of the stage

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: fortegigasgospel on December 29, 2013, 04:31:02 AM

Quote from: "Megaman94"

I was playing Mega Man 6 and realized stuff about the MM6 Maps...

MM6PLA does not have the springs used in the end of the stage.

MM6KNI does not have the bouncy wheels

MM6TOM could use a metool dispenser prop since it was in the stage twice

MM6BLI Does not have the count bombs that were used in the end of the stage

Because the maps don't need to have everything from the original stages or you'd see a lot more actors/gimmicks.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Megaman94 on December 29, 2013, 04:34:36 AM

Quote from: "fortegigasgospel"

Quote from: "Megaman94"

I was playing Mega Man 6 and realized stuff about the MM6 Maps...

MM6PLA does not have the springs used in the end of the stage.

MM6KNI does not have the bouncy wheels

MM6TOM could use a metool dispenser prop since it was in the stage twice

MM6BLI Does not have the count bombs that were used in the end of the stage

Because the maps don't need to have everything from the original stages or you'd see a lot more actors/gimmicks.

Still, I think MM6PLA needs to be redone. Something about the easily obtainable rain flush annoys me

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Tfp BreakDown on December 29, 2013, 04:37:45 AM

It is being redone. Are you this daft?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on December 29, 2013, 04:39:12 AM

Someone hasn't been paying attention to the v4 thread. :ugeek:

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Megaman94 on December 29, 2013, 04:43:20 AM

Quote from: "Ivory"

Someone hasn't been paying attention to the v4 thread. :ugeek:

Oh, ok so this is the new MM6PLA:

(http://i.imgur.com/JqCqKAi.png)

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Hallan Parva on December 29, 2013, 05:29:26 AM

Quote from: "King Dumb"

Eddie needs to go. This is the case for every CTF map. Just because the only spawn is in the center of the map does not excuse the harm Eddie can do to an otherwise good CTF game. Remove it, or replace it with SSW's version of Eddie.

please leave

this is discussion about the core game and how to improve it :ugeek:

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on December 29, 2013, 05:38:24 AM

Actually, Mike already said he doesn't want a CTF Eddie, which I suggested well before v3a was released. Therefore yes, Eddie shouldn't be in CTF at all.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: King Dumb on December 29, 2013, 06:23:21 AM

Quote from: "SmashBroPlusB"

Quote from: "King Dumb"

Eddie needs to go. This is the case for every CTF map. Just because the only spawn is in the center of the map does not excuse the harm Eddie can do to an otherwise good CTF game. Remove it, or replace it with SSW's version of Eddie.

please leave

this is discussion about the core game and how to improve it :ugeek:

I am a little shocked at how rude this was. :(

Replacing Eddie in CTF with SSW's version would be an improvement to the core of the game. What's so radical about taking work down independently by a modder and, with his/her permission, using it in the core? Nothing. That's kind of a common practice.

Although yes, Knux is right, CMM does not (at least, did not) want a CTF version of Eddie. So Eddie should just leave CTF altogether. Scorch Wheel was removed from MMCTF03 for a reason; Eddie is guilty of the same offenses.

EDIT: Clarification: The take away here is that currently Eddie in CTF is very bad. SSW version or not (twas just a suggestion which I know has been brought up before, that was absolutely nothing new), doesn't really matter what the fix to those particular maps is.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: The_Broker on December 29, 2013, 03:21:44 PM

Quote from: "SmashBroPlusB"

Quote from: "King Dumb"

Eddie needs to go. This is the case for every CTF map. Just because the only spawn is in the center of the map does not excuse the harm Eddie can do to an otherwise good CTF game. Remove it, or replace it with SSW's version of Eddie.

please leave

this is discussion about the core game and how to improve it :ugeek:

Quote from: "Knux"

[8:43:54 PM] Knux: I'm gonna ask this since it wasn't specified
[8:44:17 PM] Knux: Are we allowed to comment on core CTF maps in the comments thread?
[8:49:51 PM] Knux: Welp, saw a comment on one right after asking this, so I kept going.
[8:55:32 PM] Ivory: yea

It appears we can comment on CTF maps.

I wasn't sure about this myself, but CTF maps are fine to be commented on.

Title: Okay.
Post by: King Dumb on December 29, 2013, 06:49:39 PM

MMCTF11

Unfortunately, I have not been able to log nearly as much time playing on this map or MMCTF12 as I have been on the first 10 maps (which have been around much longer) and the competition maps, so I can't really know of any of the more subtle problems.

One suggestion I have hear involves the green stairs that lead from the lower, central path out of either base to near the boats and Drill Bomb. With experience, these stairs can be jumped in one just one jump pretty much effortlessly, but only for those who know when the jump (if you jump close to the first step, it sort of launches you up; this happens for any such setup, but for those who are unaware it's basically a less extreme version of the kind of heights you can pull of in MM4DIV by jumping next to pillars). Pursuers who are not aware of this jump are left behind almost entirely by the carrier if the latter makes that jump. In the time it takes to get up the stairs, the carrier is long gone towards their base. Since, theoretically, eventually everyone would be able to do this very easily, I suggest scrapping these stairs and replacing them either with steps (so you can just run up) or a slope (steps would be less intrusive on the rest of the map design, of course, since that section would not need to be lengthened as it would be for a slope.)

MMCTF15

Needle Cannon and Metal Blade being so near each other makes the former almost pointless (only almost, because it does remedy poor aim slightly.)

Ring Boomerang + 2 W-Tanks readily available in the base means immediate effective defense, especially with the flag being up against a wall. I would move Ring Boomerang to somewhere else in the map; perhaps switch it with Search Snake?

MMCTF16

I normally don't bother bringing up aesthetic issues, but one here stuck out in my mind. On the west side of the map, the two garages. The tops of these garages, right near Drill Bomb, are completely grey, with no texture/detail/lines, even where the surface bends. This is very unsightly and looks very out of place when everything else around has actual texture in its... texture. I just suggest giving the tops of these garages some detail, even if it's just lines at the turns in the surface to break up the grey.

There is a lot of empty space in the center area around Sakugarne. Much of the green space there is never traversed. I would suggest scrunching in this part of the map (and I guess the whole map, consequently) so the roads are just about right up against the first platform to Sakugarne. It's going out of your way to get that weapon. I would also suggest scrunching in that center area in the perpendicular direction too, a little bit. Closer action around the Sakugarne, and people can get in and out of there quicker when there is no competition.

Speaking of Sakugarne, I noticed it could be used to get out of its own pit more quickly if you fire-jump from the Big Ammo boxes and land on the tall fence directly above you. I would like to suggest lowering this fence ever so slightly, so that you can fire-jump from the lower boxes (right next to the double-layered boxes with Big Ammo on them) and land on top of the fence. That way, that little shortcut will be just that bit shorter, and maybe more people will notice it.

MMCTF17

Hard Knuckle actually isn't an incredibly good weapon in CTF, because, unlike in Duel or Deathmatch, your most serious targets will more likely than not be running away, and most CTF maps have long hallways for them to do so. This is also the case on MMCTF17. The projectile just isn't quite fast enough to be more effective than faster, weaker weapons... most of the time. In any case, getting Hard Knuckle in this map is not worth the time it takes (and, often the risk, since the bases in this map are quite vulnerable.) Even if it is effective on those stairs leading up away from the flag spots, Air Shooter does that job as well or better (due to higher RoF) and is much easier to obtain. In practice, I do not see more than one person with Hard Knuckle in the average match. I suggest replacing Hard Knuckle with something more useful, like perhaps Screw Crusher.

MMCTF18

I suggest changing the crushers in the bases so that they are operating in opposite time to each other, rather than in sync. So that when one crusher is all the way down, the other is all the way up. This way, attempting to leave the base that way is a little easier, but defenders can still use the crushers to their advantage because they will know which crusher a potential escapee will be heading for.

MMCTF19

This map has too many powerful weapons for its hallway theme. Ballade Cracker, Knight Crush, Pharaoh Shot, Laser Buster, Crystal Eye. I think Ballade Cracker and Laser Buster can get the boot.

Wire Adaptor is disappointing on this map (as it is on many other core maps, I might add.) Its only good use is for getting Ballade Cracker. The flag rooms have no ceiling, and, while it can be used away from the center in the Crystal Eye room, just jumping to Crystal Eye to get to the other side is almost as fast and often less risky. I suggest replacing Wire with Item-1, or removing it altogether.

Also, I still get an FPS drop when I walk into the Crystal Eye room (even offline.) Not sure if 3D Floor bridges would fix that or not, but it's worth looking into.

MMCTF20

Way too many weapons on this map (14.) For starters, Search Snake and Magnet Missile are pointless with all of the other options. Otherwise, I suggest just thinning it down, one way or another.

There is a copious amount of ammo near the flags. At best this is pointless, at worst it just increases stalling. I suggest reducing it considerably.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Superjustinbros on December 30, 2013, 03:37:45 AM

I find the more flatter maps (such as Turboman's stage) really need to have their heights increased. Like have an area on the roof of the garage in Turboman's stage just to help the map look a tad bit better.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on December 30, 2013, 03:55:41 AM

What annoys me about MM7TUR is the fact that the stage wasn't even a racetrack to begin with. Most of the stage was a garage, and the outside areas were really short. The way the map is made right now is like asking for a bunch of accidents to happen. If the Turboroaders ran most of their path outside of the map, that would be great.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Kapus on December 30, 2013, 04:58:55 AM

Quote from: "Knux"

What annoys me about MM7TUR is the fact that the stage wasn't even a racetrack to begin with. Most of the stage was a garage, and the outside areas were really short.

Well, to be fair, Ice Man didn't have much of an "underground portion" in his original stage, and that's roughly half his map in MM8BDM. He didn't have any deep water, either.

A racetrack still fits Turbo Man's stage, considering he's a race car of sorts.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on December 30, 2013, 06:07:03 AM

Yeah, but having props getting in the way so much annoys me anyways. The stage can still have a racetrack, just not all over the play area, where it currently causes frags to drop and the match to be delayed in DM and grief in the rest of the modes.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Megaman94 on December 30, 2013, 06:33:54 AM

Quote from: "Superjustinbros"

I find the more flatter maps (such as Turboman's stage) really need to have their heights increased. Like have an area on the roof of the garage in Turboman's stage just to help the map look a tad bit better.

Like MM1BOM? That stage doesn't have that many different heights (besides where the Homing Sniper is)

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: fortegigasgospel on January 02, 2014, 10:33:05 PM

I would recommend a new item to replace Eddie instead. I had suggested the MM1 goal items either giving a random MM1 weapon or simply giving 1 random non-ctf broken item. The trade up would be that these items don't spawn anything, the simply give you the item on the spot.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Kapus on January 03, 2014, 12:32:19 AM

But...why?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: fortegigasgospel on January 03, 2014, 03:55:36 AM

Quote from: "Kapus"

But...why?

That would be IF he was replaced. Forgot to add the "if"

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Megaman94 on January 03, 2014, 04:48:39 AM

There is a dead end I need to address is in MM4SKU
(http://i44.tinypic.com/5pplwy.png)
If you  have low health, there is no way you are making out alive.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: CopShowGuy on January 03, 2014, 05:07:07 AM

But you get a good weapon.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Kapus on January 03, 2014, 05:11:06 AM

Skull Man does have a problematic dead-end in its map design.

That's not it, though.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Megaman94 on January 03, 2014, 05:12:44 AM

Quote from: "CopShowGuy"

But you get a good weapon.

But if you go in there with low health, you die and lose the weapon...

Quote from: "Kapus"

Skull Man does have a problematic dead-end in its map design.

That's not it, though.

I know which one you mean. The Skull Barrier room

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Kapus on January 03, 2014, 05:13:48 AM

Quote from: "Megaman94"

Quote from: "CopShowGuy"

But you get a good weapon.

But if you go in there with low health, you die and lose the weapon...

High risk, high reward?

Do you want Ballade Cracker of all things just handed to you on a pedestal?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Emmanuelf06 on January 03, 2014, 05:15:57 AM

Quote from: "Megaman94"

There is a dead end I need to address is in MM4SKU
(http://i44.tinypic.com/5pplwy.png)
If you  have low health, there is no way you are making out alive.

bah...i like when people go here, we can kill them easily with anyweap because the corridors is really limited...pretty useless part....
There is others good weapons who dont need to be find in a risked part. Like Airshooter, Drillbomb and others....
And for a ballade cracker..seriously....i would prefer see the Airshooter in this "dangerous" part ^^

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Megaman94 on January 03, 2014, 05:20:12 AM

Quote from: "Kapus"

Quote from: "Megaman94"

Quote from: "CopShowGuy"

But you get a good weapon.

But if you go in there with low health, you die and lose the weapon...

High risk, high reward?

Do you want Ballade Cracker of all things just handed to you on a pedestal?

No, although, you do get it in chapter 6 anyways, I am just saying maybe another hall way should be added. Besides, you shoot through the bone wall and hide behind the rock wall next to it. *cough* Camping *Cough*

Quote from: "Emmanuelf06"

bah...i like when people go here, we can kill them easily with anyweap because the corridors is really limited...pretty useless part....
There is others good weapons who dont need to be find in a risked part. Like Airshooter, Drillbomb and others....
And for a ballade cracker..seriously....i would prefer see the Airshooter in this "dangerous" part ^^

That's that seems like a good idea

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: tsukiyomaru0 on January 03, 2014, 05:44:32 AM

Ballade Cracker for putting yourself in a dead end from which you have the lowest chance of escape? Bad idea.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Kapus on January 03, 2014, 05:45:11 AM

Quote from: "Megaman94"

No, although, you do get it in chapter 6 anyways, I am just saying maybe another hall way should be added. Besides, you shoot through the bone wall and hide behind the rock wall next to it. *cough* Camping *Cough*

I don't see why it would be necessary. Ballade Cracker isn't impossible to get, it just requires careful attention and speed. It's arguably the most powerful weapon on the map (especially in duels), so it doesn't need to be any easier to get.

Also, that room is hardly an effective camping spot. As we have already established, it's a dead end. If someone comes in there, you have no where to go.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on January 03, 2014, 10:05:27 AM

Or if someone simply shoots a Mega Ball in there. IIRC, it was on the map as well.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: fortegigasgospel on January 03, 2014, 02:20:05 PM

Quote from: "Megaman94"

If you  have low health, there is no way you are making out alive.

Solution, don't go in there with low HP. Or learn risk and reward, better stuff has a higher risk of death to get.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Superjustinbros on January 03, 2014, 03:48:46 PM

This is very minor, but anyone remember the train tracks in MM8CLO? The ones that are somehow able to make a perfect 90-degree turn? I was thinking perhaps the rails could be redesigned so the track curves in a more realistic fashion.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Superjustinbros on January 11, 2014, 06:12:21 PM

Double, I know, but can we make new Iceman and Crystalman maps that take advantage of a high level height? I have a thing against maps with those annoying warp holes. (especially Iceman's map, where the only way out is via teleporters)

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on January 11, 2014, 06:39:51 PM

Quote from: "Superjustinbros"

Double, I know, but can we make new Iceman and Crystalman maps that take advantage of a high level height? I have a thing against maps with those annoying warp holes. (especially Iceman's map, where the only way out is via teleporters)

I don't think you realize how impractical it is to use 3D Floors that way. Way, way too much work than it is worth.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Kapus on January 11, 2014, 06:42:48 PM

I think the main reason why crystal man is a multi-layered map like that is that the different textures and backgrounds used are vastly different.

And Ice Man would require a ton of 3D floors to work the same way, yeah.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: tsukiyomaru0 on January 11, 2014, 06:53:47 PM

Quote from: "Kapus"

I think the main reason why crystal man is a multi-layered map like that is that the different textures and backgrounds used are vastly different.

And Ice Man would require a ton of 3D floors to work the same way, yeah.

Not that much... MM1ICEX worked pretty well.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on January 11, 2014, 07:47:58 PM

I don't think you understand. Trying to make Ice Man's entire outside area a 3D Floor would require a lot of work. Work for a map that doesn't need it. It's fine as it is.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: tsukiyomaru0 on January 11, 2014, 10:01:14 PM

What I meant is that 3D floors and multi-layering isn't all that important when you can make a map look good with just one layer.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on January 11, 2014, 11:27:05 PM

Going to post a few things before I inevitably forget about them.

Something that I noticed about MM5GRA is that the flow completely changes with the shift in gravity. I know it sounds painfully obvious, but think about how the current layout is made. In low gravity, everything can be traversed just fine. But in high gravity, it becomes an all out war or a bunch of fruitless running away.

It's kind of a gimmicky map. I'd much rather tackle the gravity in a different manner, giving each area different amounts of gravity, all indicated by arrows at their entrances.

MM5GYR needs to have no platforming over pits. It's bad enough having to tolerate all of that white in the sky and opponents going after you. And let's not forget stray Magnet Missiles. :/

Some things that stood out to me in MM6KNI:

(click to show/hide)

This place is a well known camp spot. I suggest making those pillars to the sides 32 units wide to allow Search Snake to hit campers better and a Block Everything property to the window behind to allow Tango Roll to bounce off instead of disappearing into nothingness.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img545/6239/71vz.png)

(click to show/hide)

Wire Adaptor is next to the teleporter, which makes it both too easy to get prizes nearby and pointless because there's already two ways up quite near. How about moving Wire Adaptor to where Time Stopper is marking so that it can also make for a way back up to where Yamato Spear is?
(http://imageshack.com/a/img834/2449/0l3x.png)

(click to show/hide)

Copious amounts of misaligned textures (at least on software). Please try to fix these as they look ugly. Remember to use positive values when realigning them.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img191/2830/0zby.png)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img826/8849/gl8i.png)

EDIT - Things about MM8DW2:

(click to show/hide)

These kinda bridges are accidents waiting to happen. When on top of them, it's not obvious it'll be a pitfall until getting very close to the gaps. Just make the gaps 32 units wide.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img546/5220/pdm9.png)

(click to show/hide)

Sharp corners look ugly, make them straight lines.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img543/4139/vh5v.png)

There's also that orange/white texture in the outer parts of the map. I'm always wondering how they fit in with every other texture in the map despite not using extra colors.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: SmashTheEchidna on January 12, 2014, 12:56:05 AM

Wait, what the heck? Since when was Time Stopper in Knightman's stage?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ukiyama on January 12, 2014, 12:58:14 AM

Quote from: "SmashTheEchidna"

Wait, what the heck? Since when was Time Stopper in Knightman's stage?

That would be the power of summon timestopperwep and using it to show off the location.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on January 12, 2014, 01:30:27 AM

It's actually timestoppergiver.

I wish Icy Forts (CTF) didn't have those hallways with potential camping. Or the Ice Slasher and Dive Missile besides one another that require jumping to get to (not to mention Dive Missile is useless in CTF). There's also the Metal Blade requiring jumping when Crash Bomb is nearby on the floor.

Count in Air Shooter, Knight Crush, Dust Crusher and Gyro Attack (also next to each other) in the bases, and they become incredibly hard to enter. Even if one manages to go in, getting out is a nightmare with the opposing team's spawns nearby and a single teleporter in which getting telefragged is easy to achieve. In short, this is one CTF map that could need an entire rework.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Superjustinbros on January 12, 2014, 05:09:58 AM

Quote from: "Ivory"

I don't think you understand. Trying to make Ice Man's entire outside area a 3D Floor would require a lot of work. Work for a map that doesn't need it. It's fine as it is.

If that's the case, why not try decorating the underground portion of Iceman's stage so it doesn't look as bland; add some openings in the wall to outside (since Ice's stage in MM1 did that when you transitioned to the moving platform section after the final Yoku Block segment).

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Megaman94 on January 15, 2014, 02:57:23 PM

Quote from: "Superjustinbros"

Double, I know, but can we make new Iceman and Crystalman maps that take advantage of a high level height? I have a thing against maps with those annoying warp holes. (especially Iceman's map, where the only way out is via teleporters)

Also, one of the teleporters leads to Magnet Missile which is a homing weapon. All you have to do is stand there and keep firing them.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Kapus on January 15, 2014, 03:27:29 PM

Quote from: "Megaman94"

Also, one of the teleporters leads to Magnet Missile which is a homing weapon. All you have to do is stand there and keep firing them.

Until you very quickly run out of energy or someone else enters the same teleporter.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Korby on January 15, 2014, 06:17:33 PM

Magnet Missile itself is not too fantastic at homing, and there's a lot of cover that you can hide behind from that side of the stage. It'd be more problematic if it was in the higher teleporter.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Megaman94 on January 16, 2014, 02:48:43 AM

Quote from: "Kapus"

Quote from: "Megaman94"

Also, one of the teleporters leads to Magnet Missile which is a homing weapon. All you have to do is stand there and keep firing them.

Until you very quickly run out of energy or someone else enters the same teleporter.

Until a player gets more weapon energy, then returns to that spot, or goes to where Knight Crush is and fires from there.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Kapus on January 16, 2014, 03:04:32 AM

Quote from: "Megaman94"

Quote from: "Kapus"

Quote from: "Megaman94"

Also, one of the teleporters leads to Magnet Missile which is a homing weapon. All you have to do is stand there and keep firing them.

Until you very quickly run out of energy or someone else enters the same teleporter.

Until a player gets more weapon energy, then returns to that spot, or goes to where Knight Crush is and fires from there.

My point is, it's not nearly effective enough in a deathmatch environment (probably not duel either) to really be considered an issue.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: ice on February 01, 2014, 03:12:14 AM

Not really significant but I noticed something VERY wrong. There are absolutely NO mm1 weapons in mm1DW2. The older one had every single one from the classic game, but this had none from the coresponding game at all

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Tfp BreakDown on February 02, 2014, 03:47:24 PM

I'm wondering if you guys will fix the invisible ladders in Timeman and Freezeman's maps?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on February 04, 2014, 03:17:03 PM

IIRC, there's still one in MM6FLA as well.

I'm going to take this opportunity to say something abut MM2QUI. Why not have steps on the borders that don't have them to allow for a two-directional flow? I still don't understand why some sides don't have them, since it defeats the purpose of making said paths in the first place. Unless I'm missing something.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on February 04, 2014, 04:53:15 PM

They were meant to get you out of the middle areas. Also Item 1 and Mega Ball (and Rush Coil, but everyone uses that for Time Stopper shenanigans) to allow you to get out... Item 1 happening to appear in the corners as well as I recall.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Fr3akGamer on February 07, 2014, 12:12:53 PM

I think that MM8CLO needs fixing. Remove those tiles that heal. I say this because of netgames. Seems kinda unfair.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Zard1084 on February 07, 2014, 06:54:54 PM

Quote from: "Fr3akGamer"

I think that MM8CLO needs fixing. Remove those tiles that heal. I say this because of netgames. Seems kinda unfair.

I think not! *objection poke!* they don't heal that fast and they don't heal much and you can still die quickly if someone wanted you dead.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Laggy Blazko on February 07, 2014, 11:05:42 PM

What are those "tiles that heal" you're talking about?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ukiyama on February 07, 2014, 11:12:36 PM

Quote from: "Laggy Blazko"

What are those "tiles that heal" you're talking about?

On Clown Man, there are little circles on some of the boxes and stuff where whenever the bell rings, it heals you for a very minor amount of hp. The x floors punch you in the face for damage and the arrow floors launch you in the direction of said arrow. There is also skull floors that instagib ya if I remember right.

Title: Well, I never noticed you could charge homing sniper, either
Post by: Laggy Blazko on February 07, 2014, 11:56:51 PM

Wait wait wait... They did heal megaman in mm8? If they did, I never noticed that. o_o

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on February 08, 2014, 12:04:32 AM

No, I'm pretty sure in MM8 there were just safe zones. But in MM8BDM, obviously you have safe zones by not even standing on a tile. So we made them heal a bit so they did something.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Linnie on February 08, 2014, 08:49:31 AM

I noticed something tonight and have to ask about it.

Why does MM4PHA have both Magnet Missile and Dive Missile, and close in proximity to each other?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Hallan Parva on February 08, 2014, 09:24:00 AM

lol I actually climbed up and around to get to Dive Missile, mistaking its icon for Napalm Bomb at first glance.

Needless to say I was immediately disappointed. :ugeek:

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: SINISTAR BRAZIL on February 19, 2014, 11:42:56 PM

BUBBLE MAN ARENA NEED A NO UNDER WATER PART

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Superjustinbros on February 20, 2014, 07:31:46 AM

Sinstar, calm down. Yes I can agree on the solely-underwater Bubble and Dive stages not having some form of above-water sections (since their original levels in MM2 and MM4 respectively had above-water sections) but typing a message in all caps won't get you anywhere.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: VGS2 on February 20, 2014, 08:49:36 AM

To be fair, I think he's just acting in-character. Being good ol' loudass Sinistar, 'n all.

As for the whole Bubble Man thing, I certainly wouldn't mind a big abovewater segment with the waterfall thing in the background. Quite like the one from that one map pack of ages gone past.

Y'know, Cold Man's stage has been the one I've looked forward to seeing the most, aside from the Robot Museum, so I'm certainly hyped. :)
You going for the whole run-down factory building thing that was discussed in the old MM&B thread?

(Edit: Hurp, I actually thought this was the main thread for the expansion. I shouldn't post this early in the morning...)

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Legtendga on March 01, 2014, 10:48:46 AM

I'm with them on the Bubble and Dive Man above water section-thing. They both feel very bland. If Dive Man's stage was the essentially same, just with lowered water and a floating, dry platform in the center, then that'd be grand.

Anyway
Drill Man. I love this change. It's beautiful!
Crystal Man. I think that the old design was better than this one, so it's likely something that you've already looked at. Over relience on teleporters, etc.
Wave Man is a that map I like, but I think that most of King Dumb's critizisms were well founded, and I  agree with most of them whole heartedly.
Bomb Man. I like the idea of lower ground instead of the pits, and MusashiAA's idea about expanding the center into an old MM1DW2 style center.

Quote from: "tsukiyomaru0"

* MM7TUR - Could use some map height. A second floor and higher sky would be REALLY nice.

Yes, I like this very much.

No one has adressed MM2DW1 yet. It's far too big for how flat it is; many of the weapons don't feel as potent as they ought to in this environment. Perhaps adding a larger raised section or and underground section would be beneficial. I don't know, but this map and Dive Man are really the only 2 maps that I don't enjoy playing on.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: fortegigasgospel on March 02, 2014, 01:03:08 AM

Something to remember about dive man, it only had 1/10 of the stage out of water, you spent the rest of it under water. Bubble had slightly more out of water, but it doesn't justifie an out of water section. These are currently the only two stages fully under water, so they are fun that way, most other stages the under water is very minimum.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on March 02, 2014, 01:31:07 AM

Quote from: "Legtendga"

No one has adressed MM2DW1 yet. It's far too big for how flat it is

I like to think that it's far too flat for how big it is. Not the same thing!  :lol:

Then there's Magnet Missile on it. Ye gods.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Magnet Dood on March 02, 2014, 02:10:59 AM

I already kind of think the devs have something in mind for Dive, considering his skybox can be found in the textures.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Swordkirby on March 02, 2014, 03:55:32 AM

Underwater Base X (aka mmctf06). Basically, the map has some overpowered items like air shooter, yamato spear, bass buster, and last and definitely not least is knight crush (read on for why). The map is in a nutshell, is really small (only one average sized room in between), another flaw is that the hallway near the flag is really, REALLY hectic, not only are you gonna get Zerg Rushed by the millions of opposing players, but the aforemented Knight Crush has the ability to shoot through many players (and given how hectic it is, there are many players.). This means that the map can easily reach a stalemate (especially if it's march of the Metools.), and in my opinion, needs to be slightly expanded on the next update.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on March 02, 2014, 04:10:17 AM

You should pay more attention to the MM8BDM thread. I literally announced it was updated a few days ago :ugeek:

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Swordkirby on March 02, 2014, 04:25:00 AM

Quote from: "Ivory"

You should pay more attention to the MM8BDM thread. I literally announced it was updated a few days ago :ugeek:

Oh, well I think the map is in a bad state  :roll:

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Legtendga on March 02, 2014, 10:42:40 AM

Well, having a very small above water section to get a weapon would likely add a much welcomed flavor to BubbleMan's stage, while Dive Man's need something other than the big, floaty room and the tiny Dive Missle room.

Quote from: "Knux"

Quote from: "Legtendga"

No one has adressed MM2DW1 yet. It's far too big for how flat it is

I like to think that it's far too flat for how big it is. Not the same thing!  :lol:

Then there's Magnet Missile on it. Ye gods.

Really, that better conveys it. And, yeah, the best stratagy on that map is Get Magnet Missle, Spam Magnet Missle, Win the Match.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: HeelNavi on March 03, 2014, 07:38:43 AM

Personally,I think MM6PLA is annoying with the 2 Rain Flushes too easy to catch and the map heigth.

Title: At this rate, I should probably provide a list.
Post by: Ivory on March 03, 2014, 07:40:27 AM

Again, MM6PLA was redone for v4.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: HeelNavi on March 03, 2014, 07:43:10 AM

Oh,OK.

I wonder how it'll be.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on March 03, 2014, 08:14:44 AM

Well, there are screenshots in the v4 thread of it.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on March 07, 2014, 07:31:41 PM

Since we're apparently into a CTF map fix phase, I took my time to run over the 20 core ones and see what would stand out to me. Below are the results, with the map name for each spoiler, and in no particular order:

Aeration Sun:

(click to show/hide)

As you can see, the floor is scrambled like this for some reason.
(http://i.imgur.com/aS9oB2h.png)

Double Castle:

(click to show/hide)

Running stairs ending in a set of of jump stairs. I'd rather have them be consistent (preferably as running stairs.) However, go look at the rest of the stairs in the map as well. I'm pretty sure the ones in the middle going to the sides could be better.
(http://i.imgur.com/IxAH1qD.png)

Spaced Out:

(click to show/hide)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, too. Platforming over pits with moving platforms is a bad idea. The map is also small, so a weapon like Hard Knuckle is ridiculously easy to aim. I suggest making the platforms non moving for the sake of making non-tedious gameplay, and changing the weapon. Also, the walls used for these textures are ugly looking and, personally, make my eyes hurt.
(http://i.imgur.com/mPRe1TN.png)

Clash in the City:

(click to show/hide)

Knight Crush and Ice Wave, two potent weapons in this map's layout, are easily reachable after exiting either base. This pretty much makes all other options obsolete, including the Ballade Cracker in this screenshot, so I suggest the weapon layout is looked at.
(http://i.imgur.com/eXPByh6.png)

These texture bridges make my FPS drop rather low when I get here. Same as the complaints in the new MM5STOX, they're better off being 3D bridges without the texture spam. Though that's from my view of "gameplay over looks" more than anything else, but yeah.
(http://i.imgur.com/vIFZ4zj.png)

Sacred Shrines:

(click to show/hide)

This route has little to no use other than a perilous path filled with pitfalls. The other problem with this route is that it's rarely traversed, and probably for good reason. There are already other side paths that are much faster and safer, eliminating the need to go through here. Everytime I play and end up in this route, I almost never encounter people. And when I do, they're either camping or going back through the middle, which makes sense because there's no need to risk falling if you meet an opponent.
(http://i.imgur.com/rs1IJNQ.png)

The flag isn't immediately visible in the bases as it is, so it's probably better to move all this structure to the center.
(http://i.imgur.com/I1CESny.png)

Molten Mountain:

(click to show/hide)

I'll be completely honest here. I never knew of the existence of W and E tanks hidden in the fire trap holes. If I did, I'd have been here complaining about it for two reasons. They are effective camping spots and, well... E-Tanks in CTF seem to be a bad idea, as their removal from Victory Isles would suggest.
(http://i.imgur.com/i30KLOX.png)

Easily reachable Super Arm in CTF. I don't think that's a good idea.
(http://i.imgur.com/PVac3Nv.png)

Edge of the Dayum Son Dam:

(click to show/hide)

It's explicitly said in the game that water with spikes is bad for your health. Well, this one doesn't have any and kills you. It also carries your corpse over to more death water. Just make it water that carries you, and leave the killing to the pit it carries you to, please.
(http://i.imgur.com/l7pi47t.png)

New Grounds:

(click to show/hide)

The first CTF map sure encourages teamwork with just one fan as a means of escape from the Kell Dragon pit that are the bases. Having two more fans would be great for assaults with multiple teammates, as only one makes people have to dodge fire from opposition for far too long. Namely Danger Wrap cleanups!
(http://i.imgur.com/Z9d6DgM.png)

Deserted City:

(click to show/hide)

No screenshots, but I won't lie to you here. This map is absolutely fucking MASSIVE. How it got into the core despite the numerous camping opportunities and FPS lag inducing gameplay is beyond my comprehension. It's only merit is looking pretty, if you ask me.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Hallan Parva on March 07, 2014, 08:18:19 PM

Quote from: "Knux"

Deserted City:

(click to show/hide)

No screenshots, but I won't lie to you here. This map is absolutely fucking MASSIVE. How it got into the core despite the numerous camping opportunities and FPS lag inducing gameplay is beyond my comprehension. It's only merit is looking pretty, if you ask me.

As one of the people who voted for Deserted City in the CTF map compo, let me just say how ashamed I am of that map being present in the core game. Yes, maybe the death sand was a bit overboard, but the original map presented in the compo had a tight and simple feel to it while also looking beautiful and playing pretty well. The core version is nothing but a bastardization of an impostor trying to lay claim to the name "Deserted City", nearly doubling in size and adding 3D Floor after 3D Floor for seemingly no reason other than "because I can". I honestly wouldn't mind seeing that map get scrapped altogether; it has barely any elements from the original map left in it and wasn't voted on by the playerbase to represent the 8BDM core, and that's ignoring the humongous size, abundance of redundant weapons and assist items, and lackluster layout.

... It's been far too long and I desperately needed to get that off my chest.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on March 07, 2014, 08:38:19 PM

That's kinda funny considering the original Deserted city was filled with even higher heights, had pitfalls, many ladders to have to climb. It has exactly the same amount of 3D Floors as the original map. Many large ladders to climb and was in general, the flow was way worse compared to the new map. It's SMALLER than the original as far as map flow goes.

The FPS is about the same in both maps, so that much didn't change and most of the original elements of the map are left in place. Most of the changes were either done by galaxy himself or by Mr. X who acted on his wishes for the map as I recall too.

In short, I can't take this complaint seriously because it makes no sense whatsoever.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on March 07, 2014, 08:45:34 PM

Even so, please don't think the map is okay because it's smaller than the original. If you need evidence, go no further than a CTF server with said map. More often than not, you'll find the following:

- Stall wars.
- Flag carriers that know their way getting lost from sight because of the sheer amount of places to go to.
- If your computer isn't good enough, FPS lag from so many 3d floors and open layout.

I'm done saying what needs to be said about Deserted City. You can take it or leave it, but the complaints I've shown here have happened consistently. At least the times I've played the map, anyway. The rest of the feedback is up to other people.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on March 07, 2014, 08:50:48 PM

Never said it was okay, just that Smash was overblowing things out of proportion.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on March 08, 2014, 12:36:20 AM

Ah, alright. By the way, I forgot one map.

Cliffside Clamour:

(click to show/hide)

This pit to the left of the screenshot seems to serve no purpose other than getting people who come down from the ledge or turning the corner killed. It could just as easily be a raised floor, since there's still a pit jumping section just next to that spot.
(http://i.imgur.com/0jUVmzf.png)

EDIT: Here's something I noticed in MM7DW4.

(click to show/hide)

Why are there running stairs that require jumping to get to them? Just add a 16 height step there.
(http://i.imgur.com/mtdp3Kg.png)

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: PotatoStrike on March 13, 2014, 02:39:56 PM

Just a question:

Why put a Yashichi in all the maps you make? JUST WHY???

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ukiyama on March 13, 2014, 02:43:13 PM

Its a little bonus thing just so people can go and hunt for them when they are bored or flying around in spectator cam, like a easter egg hunt of sorts.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: PotatoStrike on March 13, 2014, 02:48:17 PM

Oh. But this is a useless easter egg!
I think they can put the Yashichi only in Megaman 1 arenas.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: -FiniteZero- on March 13, 2014, 03:29:09 PM

ALL Easter Eggs are useless.

The point is bragging rights over being able to find them.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Magikarp on March 15, 2014, 09:21:34 PM

(click to show/hide)

(https://31.media.tumblr.com/8babecde13e4526b4213326837a2ff3f/tumblr_n2hrf7rka71s6ksyfo1_1280.png)

this bridge gap thing in swordman needs to be fixed imo but that's about the only gripe i have (it's on the other bridge like this as well)

ninja edit: my reason for saying this is that a) if a bridge was built like this it would fall into the death lava and b) it's just very jarring. it makes me want to flail angrily.

so yeah

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on March 15, 2014, 09:42:31 PM

(http://puu.sh/7wFGE.jpg)
This is also the game with Crates that sit perfectly still on moving trains, I don't really consider this an issue.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Kapus on March 15, 2014, 10:27:07 PM

Quote from: "PotatoStrike"

Oh. But this is a useless easter egg!
I think they can put the Yashichi only in Megaman 1 arenas.

But...why?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: PotatoStrike on March 16, 2014, 01:08:46 PM

Because the Yashichi is from Megaman 1! He's from the first Wily Fortress: in the last stage, a Yashichi appears, and if the player collects it, he gets all his life and all his weapon energy.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: idiot9.0 on March 16, 2014, 02:55:12 PM

And? It's not affecting gameplay whatsoever, so I don't see why you care if something from a single game is hidden all over the place. It's a fun little thing to notice while you're waiting to join the game again, like someone already said. That's all.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on March 16, 2014, 04:12:05 PM

Quote from: "PotatoStrike"

Because the Yashichi is from Megaman 1! He's from the first Wily Fortress: in the last stage, a Yashichi appears, and if the player collects it, he gets all his life and all his weapon energy.

And skull barrier didn't make you invincible, and plant barrier didn't heal you, and leaf shield didn't deflect stuff, Scorch Wheel didn't make you run faster, shield weapons in general. Gravity Man's stage doesn't flip gravity, MM7/8/&Bass are in 8 bit in MM8BDM. The Mega Buster can shoot more than 3 bullets at a time. Treble acts as a sentry, you can only have one etank a time. Mr. X is his own character in 8BDM. I could go on, and on...

So, my question to you is, why is this really a matter? It doesn't affect gameplay, and it sure as heck isn't the only thing in the world to not be like the games.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Kapus on March 16, 2014, 08:25:56 PM

To add to what Ivory said, you have weapons from MM6, MM5, MM3, MM7, etc. in MM1 maps. should the MM1 maps only have MM1 weapons, MM6 maps only have MM6 weapons, and so forth?

Let's not make this game boring for no reason.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: TheGreatGreninja on March 17, 2014, 10:40:26 PM

I love the new redesign cut man stage!

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on March 24, 2014, 08:19:36 PM

Remember when I posted about CTF maps? In MMCTF12 (Molten Mountain), please block off the small Light and Wily signs. I don't relish the thought of a flag carrier camping in them.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Hallan Parva on March 24, 2014, 08:43:40 PM

Quote from: "Kapus"

should the MM1 maps only have MM1 weapons, MM6 maps only have MM6 weapons, and so forth?

completely unrelated but I had to say it


MM1DW2 has no weapons from Mega Man 1


that is all :ugeek:

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: DarkClawXD on March 25, 2014, 12:04:00 AM

I'm fairly new to the site. I was wanting to hold out until V4 was released before I jump back on the bandwagon, but looks like the "Mega Bug" bit me.

As for stages and weapons that could be redesigned

MM7SLA: My biggest gripe with this level is the water currents. The currents flow incredibly fast, and it's difficult constantly jumping to fight the currents. More than half the time, the AI tends to get stuck on one of the two drop-offs which leads you to death, At the same time, there's not a lot of places where you can jump out of the water before falling to your death. Fighting in the current is far too risky, so I would suggest redesigning the currents or at least slow down the water flow.

MM4DUS: Well, this was already addressed. The map seems far too claustrophobic, especially with the small window with the crushers.

MM2 Wily: Someone mentioned something like this earlier, but the main problem with this map is that it's far too flat, and in Story Mode, this level's an absolute pain since it's far too easy for the AI to grab weapons like Metal Blade or Silver Tomahawk and rape you to where it's not even funny.

MM2FLA: I'm noticing many of the maps have been redesigned to become larger compared to V2 and V3a. Not that anything is wrong with that, but some small maps have to exist. This is essentially Dust Man minus the crushers. Some of the weapons may be a little too overpowered, primarily the Napalm Bomb. If at all, slightly increase the level's size and change some of the weapons to where they're not TOO overpowered. There has to be a sense of balance in most maps.

MM7FRE: The biggest problem here is the ice. Yes, Freeze Man had ice in the original game, but the ice feels a bit TOO slippery. Only suggestion would be to tone down how far you slide on the ice.

MM4DIV and MM2BUB: People already nailed this one on the head. Both of these could use some sections above the water.

MM1BOM: Someone suggested adding height to the level, but one suggestion I would want to make which was done with MM2CRA, move Hyper Bomb. Yes, it's Bomb Man's level, so it's given Hyper Bomb has to be on it, but it's far too easy to grab Hyper Bomb, and it's pretty much a done deal once you have the bombs, or at least in Story Mode. Hyper Bomb should be moved to somewhere where it's difficult to grab it, perhaps some parkour or above a spiked pit?

Weapons

Fire Storm: This was nerfed in V3 where the ring of fire only hits once, but I believe Fire Storm might have been nerfed a bit TOO much. Taking away the absolute hitsum with the barrier downgrades the weapon significantly, and even up close and personal, it doesn't do a lot of damage. I tested it out on my runthrough of Story Mode, and Fire Storm was just too ineffective. Perhaps give the weapon its old hitsum or increase its strength?

Flash Bomb: It's way too overpowered. Then again, I suck at aiming with it. I believe Ivory said something about FB to be nerfed for V4. The only nerfs for Flash Bomb I could see are A. Reduce the time of the flash explosion, B. Increase the energy consumption of the weapon, or C. Reduce the damage the flash explosion does

Astro Crush: Same problem with Flash Bomb: overpowered. While Astro Crush consumes much more energy, the weapon could be slightly nerfed by about 10-15% in strength. It's almost an instant kill if you catch someone in the storm.

Ballade Cracker: In a sense, this one is already moderately balanced. Providing you hit your enemy in the right spot, the Cracker is a 2-hit kill, but it consumes a lot of energy. The only suggestions I could think of would be A. Decrease the consumption of Ballade Cracker to you get a moderate amount of uses or B. Reduce the strength of Ballade Cracker by 10-15%, since it's a Mini-Flash Bomb

Power Stone: The only real thing I can say for this would be to increase its consumption rate. People already did not like for its strength to be nerfed, but then again, Power Stone is more of a defensive weapon. I remember Hard Man's level and just sitting around smacking the AI with Power Stone...

Water Balloon: It's pretty much the water version of Needle Cannon. Then again, the balloons deal weak damage, but then again, you can pin someone down if you're quick enough. Perhaps the weapon can have a slight increase in strength or ammo?

Noise Crush: It IS essentially a free Hard Knuckle with a charged shot, but it's a bit too easy to get the charged sound wave. The only thing I could suggest would be for the initial wave to travel a distance before you can get the charged shot. In other words, you just can't pin yourself to the wall.

Blizzard Attack: The snowflakes seem to offer very little damage dealt to your opponents. It's ammo if fine as it is, but the flakes seem far too weak. It's only useful for fighting crowds, but even then, you won't be able to deal a lot of damage individually.

Flame Sword and Slash Claw: Both of these are obviously meant for close combat, but both of them have flaws. Slash Claw offers a bit too much ammo, and while it does slightly more damage than Flame Sword, Slash Claw is relatively inexpensive for its strength. Flame Sword is the direct opposite. It does not offer that much ammo compared to Slash Claw, but it is more situational than Slaw Claw since the flames can hit adjacent enemies. Overall, all I can say for these 2 weapons is that the ammo could be altered to balance them both out.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Kapus on March 25, 2014, 03:40:03 AM

Welcome to Cutstuff.

Quote from: "DarkClawXD"

MM7SLA: My biggest gripe with this level is the water currents. The currents flow incredibly fast, and it's difficult constantly jumping to fight the currents.

That's kind of the point. The currents are supposed to be dangerously fast. It's a hazard. Bots falling down there could easily be fixed by impassable linedefs.

Quote from: "DarkClawXD"

MM2 Wily: Someone mentioned something like this earlier, but the main problem with this map is that it's far too flat, and in Story Mode, this level's an absolute pain since it's far too easy for the AI to grab weapons like Metal Blade or Silver Tomahawk and rape you to where it's not even funny.

Don't see what's wrong with having a flat, open map like this! It offers variety. Bots can be a pain in single player mode, but it's most certainly not impossible to overcome, and the maps are primarily designed with multiplayer in mind anyway.

Quote from: "DarkClawXD"

MM2FLA: I'm noticing many of the maps have been redesigned to become larger compared to V2 and V3a. Not that anything is wrong with that, but some small maps have to exist. This is essentially Dust Man minus the crushers. Some of the weapons may be a little too overpowered, primarily the Napalm Bomb. If at all, slightly increase the level's size and change some of the weapons to where they're not TOO overpowered. There has to be a sense of balance in most maps.

I don't really see how any of the weapons here are really too overpowering. The map is small and compact (which is perfectly fine--once again, variety is nice) so it's designed around close combat weapons like Quick Boomerang, Shadow Blade, Water Wave and Napalm Bomb. I can pretty much go mono with any weapon here aside from Search Snake and do a good job. Also, some of the more "powerful" weapons in the map such as Crystal Eye and the aforementioned Napalm Bomb do require an extra effort to get. Seems fine to me.

Quote from: "DarkClawXD"

MM1BOM: Someone suggested adding height to the level, but one suggestion I would want to make which was done with MM2CRA, move Hyper Bomb. Yes, it's Bomb Man's level, so it's given Hyper Bomb has to be on it, but it's far too easy to grab Hyper Bomb, and it's pretty much a done deal once you have the bombs, or at least in Story Mode. Hyper Bomb should be moved to somewhere where it's difficult to grab it, perhaps some parkour or above a spiked pit?

I don't think a map should be changed on the grounds of it being too easy in Story Mode. Hyper Bomb is not overpowering at all during regular multiplayer DM, and that's what really matters.

Quote from: "DarkClawXD"

Astro Crush: Same problem with Flash Bomb: overpowered. While Astro Crush consumes much more energy, the weapon could be slightly nerfed by about 10-15% in strength. It's almost an instant kill if you catch someone in the storm.

Yeah but it also traditionally requires a ton of effort to get and only has about 2 or 3 uses. Aside from that, you're also completely immobile while using it, so someone out of range can easily take advantage of you. If someone is aware you have Astro Crush, it becomes pretty easy for them to avoid you. I don't really see this weapon as an issue.

Quote from: "DarkClawXD"

Water Balloon: It's pretty much the water version of Needle Cannon. Then again, the balloons deal weak damage, but then again, you can pin someone down if you're quick enough. Perhaps the weapon can have a slight increase in strength or ammo?

I don't see why this is necessary at all?? It fires in a fairly short ranged arc, hits in rapid succession and can easily pin someone down at good range. Seems fine to me.

Quote from: "DarkClawXD"

Blizzard Attack: The snowflakes seem to offer very little damage dealt to your opponents. It's ammo if fine as it is, but the flakes seem far too weak. It's only useful for fighting crowds, but even then, you won't be able to deal a lot of damage individually.

Blizzard Attack isn't meant to be fired willy-nilly. You're supposed to attack people at mid-close range so all of the blizzards connect at once. If you fire at close close range or long range than your flakes will only hit about once or miss entirely. Blizzard Attack is a super powerful weapon when you know what you're doing, and most certainly doesn't need a buff. It actually used to be weaker in an earlier version.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Legtendga on April 04, 2014, 08:04:03 PM

Quote from: "Kapus"

Quote from: "DarkClawXD"

MM2 Wily: Someone mentioned something like this earlier, but the main problem with this map is that it's far too flat, and in Story Mode, this level's an absolute pain since it's far too easy for the AI to grab weapons like Metal Blade or Silver Tomahawk and rape you to where it's not even funny.

Don't see what's wrong with having a flat, open map like this! It offers variety. Bots can be a pain in single player mode, but it's most certainly not impossible to overcome, and the maps are primarily designed with multiplayer in mind anyway.

I agree with most of your other points, but this is variety in a bad way. It's like sampling everything at a restraunt, and then they just bring out a peice of paper for you to eat.
This map is bland, and far to easy to win in single and multi player. Get the Magnet Missle and fire away, OR (try to) climb the tower and get the Dive Missle waiting there for you. Easy 75% chance to win by just holding M1.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Knux on April 04, 2014, 08:06:41 PM

It got an overhaul, so it doesn't matter much now.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Legtendga on April 05, 2014, 03:45:22 AM

GG
I am pleased buy this news.  :geek:

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Kapus on April 05, 2014, 07:51:32 AM

Perhaps it's a matter of taste in this case? I don't find the map to be bland or uninteresting at all. I find the wide, spacious battlefield to be rather exciting and hectic. I find it fun that way. I don't see Magnets or Dive Missile ever making it easy to win in that map (not against the likes of power stone, super arm and gyro attack), but even then that'd be an issue with weapon layouts rather than map design itself.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Legtendga on April 07, 2014, 04:54:16 AM

Quote from: "Kapus"

I don't see Magnets or Dive Missile ever making it easy to win in that map (not against the likes of power stone, super arm and gyro attack), but even then that'd be an issue with weapon layouts rather than map design itself.

You can outrange all of those by miles with homing. But, yeah, it is weapons + map layout that is(was) the issue.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: SINISTAR BRAZIL on April 17, 2014, 07:54:56 PM

in MM1DW2 there is no Megaman 1 weapons

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on April 17, 2014, 08:03:38 PM

Already dealt with.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Legtendga on April 18, 2014, 04:36:02 AM

I think this thread is a bit of a moot point at this stage in developement.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?
Post by: Ivory on April 18, 2014, 04:37:50 AM

That is a good point. We're getting close to done working on v4 content in old stages and various map tweaks for v4. I might just close down this thread.

Bye thread. Any more concerns should go back back to the main thread.