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Gaming => Mega Man Discussion => Topic started by: Megaman94 on December 29, 2013, 04:31:39 AM

Title: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Game
Post by: Megaman94 on December 29, 2013, 04:31:39 AM
Well I was playing Mega Man 1 on the anniversary collection, on easy mode, and I got to Wily Stage 1 this level is a pain in the a**

Things I hate about Wily 1 in Mega Man:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: *Alice on December 29, 2013, 07:19:04 AM
Big Eyes? They are a non-threat because you have Ice Slasher.
The fire is only a little annoying.
Foot Holders are not nearly as bad as in Ice Man.

And I have not found Yellow Devil that hard.
One T.Beam hit does as much damage to him as his flying jelly blocks do to you.
In other words, getting hit up to once per flying jelly phase (and doing one of those perfectly without getting hit) is all you need to do to win.

I only played the Rockman Megaworld version, though, so there might be differences.
And it was not on easy mode because there is no easy mode.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: NemZ on December 29, 2013, 07:27:16 AM
The footholders are a legit problem, as is the forced magnet beam use room you didn't show which is just crazy tedious.

For everything else you just need to get better at the game.  and really... easy mode?  what the hell is easy mode?
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Kapus on December 29, 2013, 07:33:56 AM
The later Wily stages only get worse, just so you know.

Maybe you're better off playing Mega Man 5.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Dr. Crasger on December 29, 2013, 07:59:34 AM
Wily Stage 1 was a hell of a pain. Good thing I knew about the [SELECT] cheat.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Emmanuelf06 on December 29, 2013, 09:31:08 AM
If you know how to dodge Yellow devil attacks, because it's always the same "pattern" thing....you can kill him easily with Thunder beam or buster (without SELECT cheat)....
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: SmashTheEchidna on December 29, 2013, 01:41:05 PM
My main issue with Wily stage 1 was the aforementioned forced magnet beam room. The yellow devil took me a long time to beat initially, since I was still learning his pattern. Once I got that down, he wasn't too hard.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Geno on December 30, 2013, 12:19:59 AM
Although I thought Wily Stage 1 wasn't too bad in the NES version of the game, in Wily Wars, it's a whole different story.

You know that room that requires Magnet Beam? And how you'd just pop back to the 2 large Weapon Energy Capsules in the Footholder room repeatedly if you ran out of Weapon Energy? Well, in Wily Wars, they "fixed" the "bug" where items re-generated when the screen they're on is left, which means YOU CAN'T MISS WITH THAT MAGNET BEAM, BUDDY, OR YOU'LL HAVE TO SUICIDE AND GET A GAME OVER TO TRY AGAIN!

(And the game didn't even save between Wily Stages, so you pretty much had one bar of energy for Magnet Beam for all 4 Wily Stages)

Mind you, the change of item re-generating is probably because all three games run on pretty much the exact same "engine", but with points, sliding, or neither enabled, depending on the game. Of course, that doesn't really make sense, as how long could it have taken them to program a "switch" to enable item respawning?
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Megaman94 on December 30, 2013, 02:38:37 AM
Quote from: "NemZ"
and really... easy mode? what the hell is easy mode?

The Anniversary collection  has an easy mode option where mega man takes less damage from attacks and I think he does more damage to enemies.



Quote from: "Geno"
Although I thought Wily Stage 1 wasn't too bad in the NES version of the game, in Wily Wars, it's a whole different story.

You know that room that requires Magnet Beam? And how you'd just pop back to the 2 large Weapon Energy Capsules in the Footholder room repeatedly if you ran out of Weapon Energy? Well, in Wily Wars, they "fixed" the "bug" where items re-generated when the screen they're on is left, which means YOU CAN'T MISS WITH THAT MAGNET BEAM, BUDDY, OR YOU'LL HAVE TO SUICIDE AND GET A GAME OVER TO TRY AGAIN!

Yeah, I heard that the two weapon energies don't respawn. Capcom has a history of being jerks. *Cough* Quick Man's Stage *Cough*

Quote from: "SmashTheEchidna"
My main issue with Wily stage 1 was the aforementioned forced magnet beam room. The yellow devil took me a long time to beat initially, since I was still learning his pattern. Once I got that down, he wasn't too hard.

I hate the fact that the Footholders can shoot you! Imagine you are on a Footholder and another one shot you. You would get knocked back and fall of of the footholder.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Number86 on January 13, 2014, 01:39:42 PM
The Big Eyes are no problem. Freeze 'em mid-jump and that's the end of the matter.
Flame pillars are simple enough when you know how. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLM2T5Yx1rA&t=2m42s)
The Foot Holders are something of a legitimate complaint, I've been playing this game for Christ-knows how long and there really doesn't seem to be anything close to a pattern in their movement. But much like in Ice Man's stage, you can still Magnet Beam across this section with relative ease (short platforms, create a new one while running across current, jump up to new one, repeat) so it's a no-brainer.
Yellow Devil... blah. Trial & Error boss that unfortunately can take a very long time to get comfortable with regarding the pattern. If the 'pause glitch' still works and you have no objection to cheaping your way past this tedious boss, then go nuts.

As already mentioned, be glad you're not playing Wily Wars. All the 'good' bugs are fixed, the controls feel less fluid if you're used to NES, and everything just generally seems more difficult (although weirdly, MM2 and MM3 seem easier).
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Megaman94 on January 15, 2014, 02:48:01 PM
Quote from: "Number86"
The Foot Holders are something of a legitimate complaint, I've been playing this game for Christ-knows how long and there really doesn't seem to be anything close to a pattern in their movement. But much like in Ice Man's stage, you can still Magnet Beam across this section with relative ease (short platforms, create a new one while running across current, jump up to new one, repeat) so it's a no-brainer.

Even when you use the magnet beam, they can still shoot you, knocking you back.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Number86 on January 15, 2014, 09:03:18 PM
Yes, which is why you constantly create a new platform while running on the existing one, so you can jump on it when they fire. The only thing you have to worry about is creating too many platforms and jumping up into the spiked ceiling, but that shouldn't even be possible unless you panic and jump every time a Foot Holder changes direction.

Example:
Look at how 'A Raving Loon' (top left screen) clears the obstacle. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkJn2kOlwlY&t=42m25s)
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Megaman94 on January 16, 2014, 02:44:53 AM
Quote from: "Number86"
Yes, which is why you constantly create a new platform while running on the existing one, so you can jump on it when they fire. The only thing you have to worry about is creating too many platforms and jumping up into the spiked ceiling, but that shouldn't even be possible unless you panic and jump every time a Foot Holder changes direction.

Example:
Look at how 'A Raving Loon' (top left screen) clears the obstacle. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkJn2kOlwlY&t=42m25s)

He got lucky, because the foot holders stayed below his Magnet Beam.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Number86 on January 16, 2014, 12:57:00 PM
Oh right, of course. 'Lucky'. Maybe you're actually just bad at the game then, because I can get across that gap using the above method pretty much any time I play.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Megaman94 on January 17, 2014, 01:54:18 PM
Quote from: "Number86"
Oh right, of course. 'Lucky'. Maybe you're actually just bad at the game then, because I can get across that gap using the above method pretty much any time I play.

Bad? I am far from bad at this game.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Ivory on January 17, 2014, 11:27:26 PM
If you were far from bad at this game, you wouldn't be complaining about Wily 1.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: NemZ on January 19, 2014, 12:41:34 AM
There are legitimate issues with that stage.  That it's reasonably possible with skill and experience to circumvent them is what keeps the game troubled rather than simply broken, but the problems are still there.

If you actually watch that vid (or just skip to the relevent sections) you'll see 3/4 players die there at least once (the one who didn't being the eventual winner), some of them while trying to magnet beam across either entirely or in steps.  All 4 of them used the beam at once to cross that room successfully, and yes there IS an element of luck because the damn things do move randomly.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Ivory on January 19, 2014, 01:36:53 AM
Mega Man games always tend to be more difficult to those who don't understand them. Once you learn how to play Mega Man, it becomes a different beast. In any case, the difficulty of Wily 1 is way harder than the rest of the game. However, if you are going to use an example based on a small margin of players, then my own experience was: I never had an issue with this on any run ever. They are random, yes, but they aren't that difficult to get around

And, in fact just beat Wily 1 before making this post so I can say: Yes this level has some bad stage design, but you guys are really overrating how bad it is. I even did that section twice. Once legitimately, then another with Magnet Beam. No issues either way.

The only real major design flaw I see in Wily 1 is the "lol, magnet beam is now relevant" problem.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Number86 on January 19, 2014, 01:53:47 AM
Quote from: "NemZ"
and yes there IS an element of luck because the damn things do move randomly.
But they're so slow with moving that it really doesn't affect any Magnet Beam running outside of possibly having to create a few extra platforms. Seriously. I understand that without the MB it can be a bastard to get past with all the random non-pattern bullshit, but when you can just make your own path it's more a case of being unlucky if the Foot Holders themselves manage to screw you over.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Megaman94 on January 19, 2014, 08:31:34 PM
Quote from: "NemZ"
yes there IS an element of luck because the damn things do move randomly.

Thank you for helping me prove my point. Those damn things are the only reason I hate Ice Man's stage. 'Ragny' (Bottom right screen) had a problem with the Foot Holders in that stage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkJn2kOlwlY&t=42m31s)
Ice Physics + Foot Holders = Death


And the fact they put spikes on the ceiling and the floor, makes it even harder. With each Magnet Beam, their height increases, meaning you could hit your head on the spikes on the ceiling unless you land right on a Foot Holder. If you miss, you hit the spikes on the floor.
Both 'Psychedelic Eyeball' and 'A Raving Loon' had problems here. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkJn2kOlwlY&t=41m41s)
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Threxx on January 19, 2014, 10:56:03 PM
There are also a couple spots in that stage where enemy placement can make it impossible to not get hit if you don't know what's coming.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Number86 on January 20, 2014, 12:49:12 AM
Quote from: "Threxx"
There are also a couple spots in that stage where enemy placement can make it impossible to not get hit if you don't know what's coming.
Just like every stage in every Mega Man game ever?
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Threxx on January 20, 2014, 01:42:38 AM
Quote from: "Number86"
Quote from: "Threxx"
There are also a couple spots in that stage where enemy placement can make it impossible to not get hit if you don't know what's coming.
Just like every stage in every Mega Man game ever?

No, good MM games allow the player to react to everything. The first one doesn't always do this. Namely, the fleas after the fire pillars, when you ascend the ladder. They can do a far jump, and essentially make it impossible to dodge them.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: NemZ on January 20, 2014, 01:57:32 AM
I'd also have to say the yellow devil is a fairly crappy boss that depending on your familiarity with the game is either incredibly frustrating or painfully tedious but almost never fun.  In theory it's a neat idea and it does look pretty cool the first time you see it, but in practice it's just not so great primarilly because it takes so damn long for each cycle and it doesn't take much damage.  There's a very good reason people pause glitch their way past him.

The stage is playable and generally has some fun problem-solving that was largely absent in the earlier stages.  Would have been nice if it did something that required using fire, elec and bomb in a non-combat utility role too, but oh well.  Can we agree that the stage needed more playtesting and leave it at that?
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Megaman94 on January 20, 2014, 04:22:55 AM
Quote from: "NemZ"
 Would have been nice if it did something that required using fire, elec and bomb in a non-combat utility role too, but oh well.  Can we agree that the stage needed more playtesting and leave it at that?

Like breakable walls that can only be destroyed by one weapon? (like MM4 and breakable walls that could only be destroyed by Drill Bomb) Oh wait, Mega Man Powered Up has those -_-
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Ivory on January 20, 2014, 04:23:36 AM
Gut Blocks can be destroyed by elecbeam too you know. Not sure if you were talking about them, but that was the only "breakable wall" in that stage.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Megaman94 on January 20, 2014, 04:26:44 AM
Quote from: "Ivory"
Gut Blocks can be destroyed by elecbeam too you know. Not sure if you were talking about them, but that was the only "breakable wall" in that stage.

I know, but we are talking about more uses for Fire Storm and Hyper Bomb. Oh, I know! They could have used Fire Storm to light up dark rooms and Use Thunder Beam to power up platforms that move (like in Junk Man's stage).
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Ivory on January 20, 2014, 04:34:43 AM
Adding gimmicks like that to every weapon is hardly a good idea.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Threxx on January 20, 2014, 11:52:13 PM
Quote from: "Ivory"
Adding gimmicks like that to every weapon is hardly a good idea.

It encourages more forced utility usage... which MM2 Wily 1 (which I believe is an even worse designed stage) had too much of.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Megaman94 on January 21, 2014, 12:15:32 AM
Quote from: "Threxx"
Quote from: "Ivory"
Adding gimmicks like that to every weapon is hardly a good idea.

It encourages more forced utility usage... which MM2 Wily 1 (which I believe is an even worse designed stage) had too much of.

Not to mention Flash Man, Heat Man, and Wily 2 had the blocks that could only be destroyed by Crash Bomb. Wily 4 had the Boobeam Trap which was only able to be damaged by Crash Bomb and you had just enough usage of it.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: NemZ on January 21, 2014, 03:20:29 AM
You guys are nuts.  Using weapons as problem solving tools is a great idea and fortress stages are exactly the place to put them as part of the required path.  Besides, what would be the point of even making mobility items if not to get past some obstacle later?

As to this specific example, why would you waste energy for elec beam, arguably the best weapon in the game, when confronted with one of the few times guts would actually do something besides just sit in your subscreen looking stupid?  Guts really needs an alternate attack when no blocks are around, and the block breaking function should be completely exclusive to it to help justify the weapon's existence.

As to making minor puzzle elements with the rest: elec for frying security switchboxes that are often in places other weapons can't reach, bomb for triggering switch gates on a delay or pressure switches(or both), and fire... burning something, I guess?  Lighting up a dark room works too, sure.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Megaman94 on January 22, 2014, 01:24:38 AM
Wily 1 had some of that.
Ice slasher froze the Big Eyes and the flame pillars
Magnet Beam was used required to get through the one room
Super Arm was the only way to move the blocks in the beginning of the stage.
and if your were not careful, Thunder Beam was the only was to destroy the fleas that ambush you at the top of the ladder.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Ivory on January 22, 2014, 02:20:11 AM
Quote from: "NemZ"
You guys are nuts.  Using weapons as problem solving tools is a great idea and fortress stages are exactly the place to put them as part of the required path.  Besides, what would be the point of even making mobility items if not to get past some obstacle later?

As to this specific example, why would you waste energy for elec beam, arguably the best weapon in the game, when confronted with one of the few times guts would actually do something besides just sit in your subscreen looking stupid?  Guts really needs an alternate attack when no blocks are around, and the block breaking function should be completely exclusive to it to help justify the weapon's existence.

As to making minor puzzle elements with the rest: elec for frying security switchboxes that are often in places other weapons can't reach, bomb for triggering switch gates on a delay or pressure switches(or both), and fire... burning something, I guess?  Lighting up a dark room works too, sure.
No, it's a terrible idea. A few gimmicks is one thing, but when you have to juggle around every single weapon / utility to progress through a stage, that is leaning into unfun territory. Mega Man is not the game to be doing things like this, especially classic Mega Man where your special weapons need energy to recharge. Such behavior encourages not using your special weapons ever because of required bits.

Quote from: "Megaman94"
Super Arm was the only way to move the blocks in the beginning of the stage.
Thunder Beam destroys them too.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Korby on January 22, 2014, 02:23:39 AM
Things like the first three megaman games are why I'm so nervous about using ammo in any game. "What if I need it later?"
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Megaman94 on January 22, 2014, 02:55:31 AM
Quote from: "Ivory"
Quote from: "Megaman94"
Super Arm was the only way to move the blocks in the beginning of the stage.
Thunder Beam destroys them too.

oops, forgot about that ^^;

Plus, you need the weapon ammo for the boss rush. Especially if you are playing Mega Man 1, because you don't get health after you beat the Robot Master
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: NemZ on January 22, 2014, 02:59:31 AM
Completely disagree.  Puzzle elements like that don't encourage you to never use them, just not to use them all the time.  Besides, making running out of energy a relevant problem in fortress stages means W tanks would actually have a purpose.  Seems truely bizarre to me that they introduced W tanks right at the same time they started making them pointless.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Dr. Freeman on January 22, 2014, 03:03:27 AM
"Gimmick" uses for weapons only are good if they are rarely, if every forced. Such as Tornado Hold in MM9. It makes you jump higher plus there are those platforms that move up in Wily 1. However, you only need it for like 3 screens, and said screens are absolutely littered with weapon energy so you don't run out. But it doesn't shove these platforms down your throat. I'd say that's a pretty good use of an add "gimmick" to the weapon.

 Mega Man and Bass has the Ice Wall in constant use, it kind of teeters on the edge of "pretty decent" to "please stop making me use this" but if I remember correctly, there is generally (key word, generally) a good chunk of weapon energy nearby when it's forced. Though I could be more mistaken on this example.

What's not a good use of an effect weapon is everything concerning Crash Bombs in MM2. Forces use all over the place, and there's never a place where it actually gives you ammo for the weapon. You have to farm it manually for 10 hours and then cry yourself to sleep when you accidentally shoot one too many because you didn't know about the Buebeam Trap ahead of time so you shot all those alluring walls that you need Crash Bombs to break.

There's a fine line between a neat small gimmick and "oh god please stop". Magnet Beam is a utility weapon, so it's expected to get some use. But the way it's handled is kinda sloppy and could have been done so much better.


The problem with puzzle elements in the latter case NemZ, is that W Tanks only exist in like 2 Mega Man games. Not counting the GB series.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Ivory on January 22, 2014, 03:06:59 AM
Yes, the best use of weapon gimmicks is non-forced shortcuts. Not when you have to use them to progress.

But then, this topic turned into ranting about Wily Stage 1 to Mega Man game design in general.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: NemZ on January 22, 2014, 03:51:31 AM
Quote from: "Ivory"
But then, this topic turned into ranting about Wily Stage 1 to Mega Man game design in general.

Seems like a change for the better to me.

Quote from: "Dr. Freeman"
"Gimmick" uses for weapons only are good if they are rarely, if every forced.

Well sure, you don't want the things to be required all the dang time.  That would get old fast and WOULD encourage players to hoard ammo for them.  I just mean once in a while, and only ever forced in fortress stages.  In RM stages it should be for shortcuts or rare powerups only, to encourage players to experiment so that they're ready for when it will be do or die time.

And I didn't mean those puzzle uses for bomb/cut/elec/fire should also be in the first wily stage.  That would be just too damn much.  Maybe in stage 3 though, which was sorely in need of other mechanics.

Quote
What's not a good use of an effect weapon is everything concerning Crash Bombs in MM2.

Agreed, though you have to admit it was still an improvement on guts for a map-affecting weapon concept.  MM2 has a lot of design flaws but it was undoubtedly a big step in the right direction nonetheless.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Beed28 on January 22, 2014, 04:20:04 PM
On the subject of required weapon/equipment with limited energy usage, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that Rush Jet section in Doc Robot Needle Man's stage yet, in which gives you no opportunity to let you farm Weapon Energy just before it (I think? It's been a long while since I last played 3), and the Weapon Energy pickups themselves don't respawn after you die.

Or worse yet, the arbitrary Rush Coil requirement in Doc Robot Gemini Man's stage, where after defeating Flash Man, if you don't have enough energy for Rush Coil, you get stuck and have to RESET the game entirely (there's the player 2 controller cheats, but they're fixed in the ports and remakes, not to mention unavailable in the 3DS Virtual Console version).

Mega Man 6 was a lot better about this, which gave you the Rush Adaptors, which could be used an unlimited amount of times.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: NemZ on January 22, 2014, 06:43:48 PM
I see the doc robot stages as fortress levels (since you've got all the tools now) so DR Needle Rush Jet section feels fair to me.  The real problem there is the arangement of stage elements... if that section came before Airman and the checkpoint it would have been fine.

As to the DR Gemini problem... yeah, there should be a pit there for extreme circumstances.  Really though, how the hell does anyone manage to use all their rush coil in any stage, much less just half of one?  I mean the possibility is there, I grant you that, but has anyone ever actually gotten stuck there without it being on purpose, for real?

Adaptors are nifty, though having them, much like the charge shot, tends to make the weapons less important.  If only they set it up so you could choose an adaptor and still swap weapons... and even better, use the weapons differently when in different forms.  Say, power adaptor megaman swings the knight crush out in an overhand (but non-aimable) arc that has longer reach and hits harder, but also uses ammo faster.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Threxx on January 26, 2014, 05:09:33 AM
Quote from: "Beed28"
On the subject of required weapon/equipment with limited energy usage, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that Rush Jet section in Doc Robot Needle Man's stage yet, in which gives you no opportunity to let you farm Weapon Energy just before it (I think? It's been a long while since I last played 3), and the Weapon Energy pickups themselves don't respawn after you die.

Or worse yet, the arbitrary Rush Coil requirement in Doc Robot Gemini Man's stage, where after defeating Flash Man, if you don't have enough energy for Rush Coil, you get stuck and have to RESET the game entirely (there's the player 2 controller cheats, but they're fixed in the ports and remakes, not to mention unavailable in the 3DS Virtual Console version).

Mega Man 6 was a lot better about this, which gave you the Rush Adaptors, which could be used an unlimited amount of times.

The Doc Robot stages as a whole are all designed poorly. Bad checkpoints, unfair bosses, and these cheap utility sections. Then you get the Wily Stages, which are all too EASY to be even considered real fortress stages. Just shows how rushed MM3 was in it's late stages.

That's another reason why I love MM6. The utilities don't use energy.
Title: What I Hate About The Wily Castle In The First Mega Man Game
Post by: Megaman94 on May 28, 2014, 06:53:19 PM
Quote from: "Threxx"
Quote from: "Beed28"
On the subject of required weapon/equipment with limited energy usage, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that Rush Jet section in Doc Robot Needle Man's stage yet, in which gives you no opportunity to let you farm Weapon Energy just before it (I think? It's been a long while since I last played 3), and the Weapon Energy pickups themselves don't respawn after you die.

Or worse yet, the arbitrary Rush Coil requirement in Doc Robot Gemini Man's stage, where after defeating Flash Man, if you don't have enough energy for Rush Coil, you get stuck and have to RESET the game entirely (there's the player 2 controller cheats, but they're fixed in the ports and remakes, not to mention unavailable in the 3DS Virtual Console version).

Mega Man 6 was a lot better about this, which gave you the Rush Adaptors, which could be used an unlimited amount of times.

The Doc Robot stages as a whole are all designed poorly. Bad checkpoints, unfair bosses, and these cheap utility sections. Then you get the Wily Stages, which are all too EASY to be even considered real fortress stages. Just shows how rushed MM3 was in it's late stages.

That's another reason why I love MM6. The utilities don't use energy.

You get 5 E-Tanks total  in the Wily stages. It is the easiest castle in Mega Man History.

EDIT: I also hate the fact in Wily stage 4, they have you fight 4 robot masters (Bomb Man, Fire Man, Ice Man, and Guts Man) with  no health pick ups in between bosses.
Title: Re: What I Hate About The Wily Castle In The First Mega Man
Post by: Dr. Crasger on May 29, 2014, 05:21:06 AM
Quote from: "Megaman94"
EDIT: I also hate the fact in Wily stage 4, they have you fight 4 robot masters (Bomb Man, Fire Man, Ice Man, and Guts Man) with  no health pick ups in between bosses.

Yeah...

I remember abusing the [SELECT] glitch so much during that time...

ah memories.

Bloody Wily Stages.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: NemZ on May 29, 2014, 09:38:29 AM
I played a hack a while back where those rematches all took place on ice floors.  :twisted:
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Megaman94 on May 30, 2014, 04:20:32 AM
Quote from: "NemZ"
I played a hack a while back where those rematches all took place on ice floors.  :twisted:

Damn, that must of been hard to do D:
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: NemZ on May 31, 2014, 01:49:37 AM
It took some save state abuse to get through it, yeah.  Especially Fire Man, as his attack was a cranked up to a 3-hit kill in this mod so you couldn't just damage race him.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Megaman94 on May 31, 2014, 02:01:37 AM
Quote from: "NemZ"
It took some save state abuse to get through it, yeah.  Especially Fire Man, as his attack was a cranked up to a 3-hit kill in this mod so you couldn't just damage race him.

And getting back to the original game, you fight Ice Man which can kill you in 3 hits and you get no health after you fight him.
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Heihachi_73 on November 04, 2014, 02:07:13 AM
A mountain of a first post... and a half-year bump too.

Mega Man 1 isn't that bad of a game; but as with every other MM game in the NES series, there were places it could have been improved.

Some glitches fall under the grandfather clause though (it is the first game in the series after all), for instance water physics not making Mega Man jump 20 feet in the air, and the odd movement he sometimes does after stopping, and the ladder glitch (not to mention the Select pause glitch). Others like Mega Man dying on spikes while invincible (thank you, stupid hamburger-looking thing), and falling through Foot Holders while invincible were bugs that could have easily been fixed, likewise Mega Man falling very fast after walking on a Magnet Beam, and jumping off the top of the screen, clipping through the bottom and climbing down the ladder to the next screen.

Another annoyance in Mega Man 1 is the fact that sometimes you will get frozen in position after defeating a boss, and eat their last projectile as a result, which can sometimes lead to death and another fight against said boss (most notably, Ice Man). Mega Man 2 made it so you are invulnerable to when that happens, while other games simply remove the projectiles altogether when the boss is defeated.

A third annoyance is the fact that walls are square and "hard"; Mega Man can't clip through even one pixel, making platform jumps with a Mega Man-height ceiling very difficult - the fire bar area in Wily 1, and that large energy pickup in Elec Man's stage being the two most noticeable places in the first game. The block puzzle in Heat Man's stage in MM2 is another infamous example, where a block will appear right above another block over a bottomless pit; if you didn't time that jump perfectly so you are on top of the topmost block when it appears, you will be stuck between both blocks and 99% of the time Mega Man will hit his head on it and plummet to his death when the lower block vanishes (or slides back into the wall, as I imagine they would do if it was in a 3D world). The other way to die there is if the topmost block decides to spawn at the exact same time you're in its place; you will be shunted out of the way to your death if this happens.

Not all bugs are bad though, at least you can stock up on lives on the last stage before the boss rush if you are prepared to ride back and forth on Guts Man lifts (and maybe a little help from the Magnet Beam), since items respawn when scrolled off-screen (however, items have to be scrolled one full screen away to respawn, unlike enemies). The Yashichi also respawns so you won't run out of the Magnet Beam there either. It's a shame that the other extra lives in the game are all in vertical falling parts of the stages (Ice Man, Guts Man, Wily 1) which can't be climbed back up, with the exception of the extra life on Bomb Man's stage, which is nigh-impossible to jump back up the top in order to scroll the area off-screen.

Also, whoever remade the series in the Wily Wars (aka Rockman Megaworld) either messed up badly on the damage, or deliberately set nearly every boss to take 1 damage from the buster for added difficulty. Notably, Cut Man, Quick Man and Flash Man, and probably others I can't remember; anyone up to test the other 2-damage bosses? Cut Man and Elec Man also don't flinch when shot either, which can typically result in you eating a cutter or (worse) a Thunder Beam before you can react. Wily Wars also seems to lag a bit when rapid-firing the buster, in that it won't let you rapid-fire the buster at all until the first one has left the arm cannon (it's about as fast as the Quick Boomerang auto-fire rate in MM2), and the Magnet Beam is all but useless in Wily 1; Mega Man can't stand on the very edge of it in that narrow section after the Foot Holders, unlike on the NES, so it's almost a gamble whether he can even climb the first part with enough Magnet Beam left! Not to mention the weapon energy doesn't respawn underneath on this version for that very reason. At least you don't fall through the Foot Holders if they shoot you though, nor do you die when you hit the spikes after being shot (whip out the "M" and you're back in business), provided you are still invincible.

Also, every Mega Man game has at least one luck-based boss. Either you will beat them with next to no trouble, or they will hurt you badly.

Guts Man can be either a pushover, a challenge, to downright deadly depending in whether he randomly jumps away from you, jumps up to summon a Guts Block, or decides to be a PITA and keep jumping towards you and getting in your personal space (all while probably knocking you over if you mistimed that jump before he lands). Good luck if you have 4HP left after beating Fire Man and Ice Man beforehand, especially if Fire Man wasn't his happy self and decides to throw a dozen fireballs at you instead of one every time, or if you are unlucky enough to get frozen by the game after beating Ice Man and have to eat a 10HP Ice Slasher before you can start moving again.

Recently I had a fight against Quick Man in the MM2 boss rush, and he didn't launch one boomerang. Of course though, being Quick Man and his resistance to losing perfect, he started the round by doing a low jump which was completely unavoidable; Time Stopper could do nothing to get me over or under him and out of the way (and being Time Stopper, you can't pause and change to another weapon, or Item-1 in this case). Fun fact: Air Shooter can hit him when he's one block lower than you; the buster cannot. Another fun fact: Quick Man will stop dead and fall to the ground if your shot deflects from him - in this case Metal Blades, Bubble Lead or Leaf Shield (maybe I should use one of these when he starts with the low jump instead of the high jump). This doesn't work in the Wily Wars either; like Cut Man and Elec Man, Quick Man doesn't flinch or stop moving. Suffice to say, Quick Man is *all* about random luck. Will he jump high and get frozen by the Time Stopper in mid air and take every other buster shot for a perfect (good luck), will he chuck a boomerang or three at you while you run under him or jump over him (more likely), or will he jump once only and charge at you before you can react?

Air Man is the same. That One Pattern. Or two, since there is another pattern of tornadoes which is almost impossible to dodge, but you can still sometimes fluke it. Not that Air Man is nearly as difficult as the song suggests - Wood Man is indeed harder (or at least more resilient to the buster, at 1 damage, or 2 on the "Normal" mode), but he is completely defenseless after throwing his Leaf Shield so it evens out a bit (you can hit him about 6 times after jumping the shield). Crash Man is known for his "dance" where he walks around the room without attacking, but this isn't always the case - sometimes he will jump in the air and fire at you anyway without being provoked (more commonly in the boss rush, and occasionally the Doc Robot version as well).

Speaking of Leaf Shield and Doc Robot too, his Leaf Shield is nearly impossible to jump, to the point where it's easier to deliberately get hit by the falling leaves than trying to jump the shield, failing and taking 8 damage instead of 4 (and of course, Doc Robots in general, lose to the first one and you're back to the start of the stage, not to mention they have the same AI as Mega Man 2 bosses, but sometimes improved like Flash Man, and only take 1 damage from the buster even if their Mega Man 2 counterpart was "weak"; see the Wily Wars note above, as Doc Flash and WW Flash Man are practically identical in terms of AI).

Shadow Man is Mega Man 3's random luck boss. You will either eat the Shadow Blade or he will slide into you, or jump into you, all at random intervals. Or Top Spin will completely fail at random and leave you with the buster only. I clipped the left side of Shadow Man two nights ago and the game glitched me through him to the right hand side, draining the entire Top Spin. The Top Spin glitch doesn't affect anyone else, e.g. Doc Heat Man, the Mega Man clone or Gamma, although it will also drain itself on enemies immune to it (and technically, Shadow Man is immune when invulnerable, although there's no explanation to why it fully drains while Mega Man is flashing damaged instead of Shadow Man). I've even had Spark Man stop early at least once and chuck a Spark Shock at me before jumping to the top of his "mountain", but usually he always goes to the top before firing anything. Gemini Man can sometimes glitch you during a battle, and your buster won't fire despite the animation happening - it happens sometimes when he pauses for that split second to fire back at you. Cue Mega Man damage and a random expletive.

Bright Man. Yes, you will get frozen and hurt unless you know his Achilles Heel (shoot him once with the buster to give him an odd number of HP, then Rain Flush him all you want). Likewise, Centaur Man does exactly the same thing but you will "only" eat a buster shot rather than the collision damage that Bright Man prefers (if he misses you with his buster). Dark Man 3 too (Hint: Charge Kick into the O's and you won't get hurt, and if Dark Man jumps into you he will lose 1HP every time). I didn't really have any trouble with Mega Man 5's bosses, although Wave Man can be a tosser when it comes to summoning water right underneath you, or right in front of you during a Charge Kick. The other "randoms" in the series aren't really threat - Magnet Man and Dust Man will just drag you towards themselves with their magnetic/vacuum powers while being completely invincible, likewise Drill Man can keep digging through the ground all he likes and Star Man can keep jumping all over the place with his Star Crash around him; no-one is going to get hurt here.

Heat Man's random dash pattern is predictable, if he stays in his position for a while after being shot, he will move right to where you are (or a bit further, since he sometimes gets stuck in the wall if you are walking into the wall), if he moves straight away after being shot he will stop short (which is where a lot of people get damaged because they don't anticipate him stopping early and jump on top of him). As for the flames at the start, just a small hop while moving towards him and the Atomic Fire will miss (the arc is a bit different with the Doc Robot version though).
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Threxx on November 13, 2014, 01:06:57 AM
Quote from: "Heihachi_73"
Heat Man's random dash pattern is predictable, if he stays in his position for a while after being shot, he will move right to where you are (or a bit further, since he sometimes gets stuck in the wall if you are walking into the wall), if he moves straight away after being shot he will stop short (which is where a lot of people get damaged because they don't anticipate him stopping early and jump on top of him). As for the flames at the start, just a small hop while moving towards him and the Atomic Fire will miss (the arc is a bit different with the Doc Robot version though).

I think this proves a point I like to make. Every single MM boss has some kind of pattern, even if there is a degree of randomness to it. You just need the recognition and sense of mind to see it. For example, the amount of times Heat Man ignites before dashing indicates how far he will dash.

I think that mountain of a post justifies the half a year bump, no?
Title: Re: What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Gam
Post by: Heihachi_73 on November 13, 2014, 02:02:01 AM
Also, Wily 1 in MM1 has nothing on Wily 1 from MM4. I hate that boss with a passion. It has no weakness* and it deals a ton of contact damage (it's a giant Met which takes up a third of the screen, and is almost impossible to dodge even when sliding, and to top it off, when it lands it stops you dead like Hard Man did in MM3).

* Rings and dust dealing 2 damage is not a weakness; the charged buster/Pharaoh Shot beats that at 3, although it's not possible to rapid-fire charged shots nor is it possible to rapid-fire bosses after Mega Man 3 (due to invincibility, which is fair I suppose) - why doesn't the weakness deal 4 damage like practically every other boss this side of Mega Man 1 and 2?