Anything Goes
Talk about anything. Keep it clean and don't post pointless crap. Topics without any hope of becoming a relatively sane discussion will be locked/deleted.
You're literally comparing solitaire to minesweeper.
Well yes, because now I'm going to bring up CSCC, Teaparty, and I think Unholy was meant for PVP originally too.
PunkAs a Punk main, he's probably the strongest all-around class in the game. Strong rate of fire that can knock out squishies pretty easily, and an altfire that can be used to either drain through heavily-armored classes, help check burst classes like Tengu Man, and provide an exceptional escape from lock-down classes like Spark, Flash, and Galaxy. I guess trope-wise he probably fits best under an Assassin catagory? Exceptional poke against classes that aren't better at a specific range than him, and an alt with infinite possibilities for engaging or escaping. He still tends to get fucked by hard-melee or hard-sniper types, but he does decently against just about anything else.
Justified's not bad, but I just don't feel like there's nearly enough of a following behind it to make mastering classes I like worthwhile.Any particular reasoning for this statement? Any examples? "Nearly enough following of a behind it" is a pretty vague proclamation.
I typically have more fun with CBM myself. Each class offers a different experience and fulfills a different role and that's usually what ropes me in.
However, there are things about this mod that reliably ruin an otherwise enjoyable game. The biggest of these is that some classes are wildly imbalanced and require little to no effort on the user's part to rack up frags, which is a serious problem when you consider that CBM is almost always played in TLMS. This is amplified by the fact that most classes have weaker armor; even the copyweps got armor nerfs. Everything feels extremely squishy and it's oftentimes a matter of outlasting your opponent rather than outplaying them. Additionally, I have many aesthetic qualms with this mod, such as Guts Man's Battle & Fighters Super Arm, as well as countless sound effects that were either imported or custom made.
My qualm with this mod soon arose when I rapidly got bored with it. It doesn't feel as involved as CBM; I even heard someone refer to it as a cure to insomnia, and I happen to agree.Another extremely vague statement with literally no evidence behind such. "My qualm with this mod soon arose when I rapidly got bored with it", you give literally no evidence behind this statement; i.e. why did you get bored? "It doesn't feel as involved as CBM", Why didn't it feel as involved as CBM? "I even heard someone refer to it as a cure to insomnia, and I happen to agree." Again no explanation behind your point.
Some of the sound effects were also questionable; the Stardroids use Game Boy sound effects when NES counterparts to some of them exist in the core. For instance, when playing as Mega Man, equipping the Mega Arm changes the charging and firing sounds to the Game Boy version, creating a significant inconsistency.
My other qualms came more recently--it seems to me that the dev team was more concerned with releasing their mod than dealing with bugs and balance issues, and I cringe every time someone says that this mod is more balanced than the other. A prime example of this: flying Ground Man.
There are also some skin replacements that feel unnecessary and imposed; Duo comes to mind.
In addition, the behavior and attitude of some of the dev team in-game is a serious turn-off to me. I'm not going to name names but I'm sure some of you know who I'm talking about.
I'm not backing anything up with "evidence" because they're my opinions.That's perfectly fine, your opinion simply has no proper evidence or reasoning is all.
I prefer CBM myself just because I always end up having more fun with it than Justified.Not really adding to the discussion here, simply stating something without evidence as well.
Not super big on either of them though, but when it comes down to either of them, I personally find more enjoyment out of CBM.
I like my classes mods without extra salt, which is why I order The CBM (The Cutstuff Big Mac) when I'm hungry and in the mood.
Quote from: "Dr. Freeman"I prefer CBM myself just because I always end up having more fun with it than Justified.Not really adding to the discussion here, simply stating something without evidence as well.
Not super big on either of them though, but when it comes down to either of them, I personally find more enjoyment out of CBM.
the new ones are far superior in every way. The skin change was very much necessary as was all the others (especially the Megaman & Bass ones).
Quote from: "Clayton"Quote from: "Dr. Freeman"I prefer CBM myself just because I always end up having more fun with it than Justified.Not really adding to the discussion here, simply stating something without evidence as well.
Not super big on either of them though, but when it comes down to either of them, I personally find more enjoyment out of CBM.
There's not a lot of evidence to be said unless you want my official contract of, "I prefer CBM to Justified". If you want another in depth analysis just so you can "debunk" everything everyone says then I don't know what you're hoping for.
Justified bores me more than CBM. There's no evidence here unless you need a 20 minute video of me playing Justified and getting bored. If I'm gonna get bored, I'm gonna get bored you don't need a gigantic list of evidence to prove that you get bored.
Though if you want a note, I prefer mods that don't release 20 hotfixes immediately upon a new release.I find this very hypocritical in a sense because the Class Based Modification had to release just as many if not more hotfixes for their most recent update so singling out only one class mod for such a reason is very ignorant.
As a member of the Justified Classes development team, it is one of my duties to seek out information and feedback to make Justified Classes a better mod. And I see this topic being more of an opportunity for people to share opinions whether significant or strictly personal to help improve the quality of both class mods. Just posting to say that you like one mod more than other doesn't really help the discussion very much.
I find this very hypocritical in a sense because the Class Based Modification had to release just as many if not more hotfixes for their most recent update so singling out only one class mod for such a reason is very ignorant.
Quote from: "Clayton"the new ones are far superior in every way. The skin change was very much necessary as was all the others (especially the Megaman & Bass ones).
I wasn't going to partake in any sort of argument in this thread, but this actually has to do with the core too, because your[collective] skins were denied for that due to inferiority, usually for lack of quality.
Alright, firstly I don't get why when I first sent these sprites to the core why no one said "why" the skin had a lack of quality instead you say all of these issues after the skin is used in Justified Classes.
(http://i.imgur.com/VauUwNa.png)
So this is a few frames from your Duo walking animation.
A) This is one of MANY inconsistencies; The power fist is at a different elevation on your side sprite than on your 3/4 sprite. There are many many many more examples of this in your sprites for this skin, and several others, including but not limited to Coldman[who has an incredibly ugly back/r hit frame, by the way.], Burnerman[specifically, his spinning and jumping sprites. His spinning sprites particularly completely change shape depending on what direction you're looking at.], and Groundman[why is the difference between his 3/4 and side digging sprite that one is tilted up more; more importantly, what the hell is his left arm coming out of in the jump frame]
Again here, if I miss inconsistencies with parts of the skin why wasn't I told that when I first sent the skin over? That aside there are numerous inconsistencies that appear in skins that are in the core all the time yet you still think they have the "quality" you speak of:(click to show/hide)
Burnerman has literally 3 inconsistencies in just one instance, his head is not consistent, his torso is not consistent, and lastly his foot ring thing is not consistent. Magicman's magic wand's stick portion isn't consistent as well. These are just a few inconsistencies that I found that are also in many other skins. Also is that the only ugly frame on my Coldman? Because I can safely say that every back/r frame on the core Coldman looks just as bad. I never made any extra frames on any skins so I can't speak for those mistakes, however let me just say that all of those other issues are very minor due to how long they'll be shown in-game (especially Groundman).
B) this is more nitpicky, but there's two different shades of blue going on in here
Disregarding this.
C) given the angle we're looking at it, which leg is forward, and which is in back, shouldn't we be able to see more of Duo's crotch armor in this pose? You have a single blue pixel there when you could easily have more.
Again, could've been fixed rather easily if I had known about the issue when I first sent off the skin.
D) This is a potato on his hand. To expand on that thought, it looks like a potato. One of the main problems your sprites have is you try way too hard to put too much detail into areas where they don't belong[see: coldman], and your rotations also generally look freaking weird. see next image for scary tentacle hand
(http://i.imgur.com/nPMNu9p.png)
[his eyes are white because he realized his hand looks like bacon]
I am aware that this issue is also in core, but it looks less like bacon due to the additional cyan on the lower part of the hand, signifying more of an arm.
I will say that I appreciate that your Burnerman actually, you know, walks, but assuming all of your sprites are better in every possible way is both conceited and nearly impossible.
I do have to ask why you decided to make Coldman taller when he's pretty darn short in game.
I also have to ask why you made Pirateman shorter and added gray to him[and like three other people].
Duo's hand in that image is almost identical to the back frame one so I assume you think that one looks like a potato too? Please enlighten me with what areas you think have too much detail on Coldman, please provide some examples for where my rotations look weird also. Disregarding Burnerman here because the core one has the same problem. Also I increased Coldman's size because he was that size in Megaman & Bass compared to the rest of the Robot Masters:(click to show/hide)
Also, my Pirateman is not "shorter" and I swapped gray with that pink colour that was used in the core because the gray is more prominent than the pink in all of his appearances. Gray was added to Magicman so that his cards looked more like cards and Groundman so that his treads looked more like treads.
To finish off my post, have a monstrosity.
(http://i.imgur.com/PKXVNwS.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/YoUwr29.png)
"kill me"
Even my brothers and I knew that our Hyper Storm-H looked bad (was just a placeholder), kudos to pointing out the obvious though.
You know, for my money I think Silversin's Saxton Hale is the best class mod here.
You can't blindly hold m1 and snag a frag.
All you do is M1 and alt if anyone gets near.
in JD:Quote from: "BookofDobson"You can't blindly hold m1 and snag a frag.in YD:Quote from: "BookofDobson"All you do is M1 and alt if anyone gets near.
Are you confused?
Quote from: "Clayton"
As a member of the Justified Classes development team, it is one of my duties to seek out information and feedback to make Justified Classes a better mod. And I see this topic being more of an opportunity for people to share opinions whether significant or strictly personal to help improve the quality of both class mods. Just posting to say that you like one mod more than other doesn't really help the discussion very much.
The discussion here is CBM VS Justified. Saying which one I like better is very on topic.
And it seems kind weird if your job is to help improve your classes when every piece of critique thus far you have shrugged off as it if were wrong.
Now now, boys.
I'm left here to imply that JC defines classes without little to no disadvantages or limitations at all, for the sake of making all classes "usable in all scenarios".
I don't agree with this at all. To give one example: a melee-centered, close range class shouldn't be given a projectile attack because of its limitations being made more evident in a long range fight or when fighting against a class with a long range weapon. Instead, it should be given the ability to cut down the range or resist the long range fight or momentarily dodge or block attacks. Eliminating the disadvantages to what you would call a class eliminates the essence of classes being role-centered (<<<<THIS IS A FACT), and instead gives a class two or three wildly different abilities, which just makes a class imbalanced or undefinable, and defeats the purpose of letting players fill in the limitations with their own wit, or to mantain classes within the boundaries of its role.
I agree with you on this point, because there are classes in Justified that fight like this. For example, Slashman where he has no projectile attacks but has lots of mobility options to make up for it. However Class Based Modification fails to accomplish this goal effectively mostly due to the extreme gimmicks players are forced to adhere to. For example, Needleman has no way of getting close to another player since his mobility is terrible and does not have enough armour to shrug off direct hits. His abilities and attacks are only useful at point blank range and terrible at even mid range combat. Let's not forget that Class Based Modification's version doesn't even properly portray Needleman but instead more so portrays TF2 Heavy.
So now we have a more clear differentiation between both mods: CBM sees role limitations as a tolerable (may I add sometimes purposeful) factor, while JC...doesn't?
Justified Classes does take roles into consideration but not in a way that it would hinder the classes' ability to perform in situations.
EDIT: My input here is that this attempt at ironing the limitations, as if they were a bad thing, just results in giving players a less fluctuating online experience, in the sense of a lack of difficulty when facing other players and the abilities to overcome it with strategy. I guess I would call this "handholding"?
Your perspective on my idea is misconceived, I am simply saying that classes that aren't given the compulsory tools or don't have a good balance in abilities to make a role or gimmick work then there are many instances where classes are put in an unfair situation. What Justified Classes is doing is not "handholding" but giving each class a mostly if not equal opportunity to shine in their own individual way. Putting the class in an unfair situation will not make a challenge but instead make a frustrating experience for the player. Especially when one player is putting out double the effort using a disadvantaged class against someone using a class that exploits the map or counters the user's class.
Strange when Metalman's design concept in both mods is to just hold M1. Sure, you have ceiling/floor blades, but that's still only holding M1.
CatMario (Pluto, for the less-fun) can just hold his one buster and keep going.
There we go.
Buster.
See that's where you started to contradict yourself.
Busters usually require no ammo to use.
ANY class with a buster can just M1 and win.
In Justified Classes simply holding down m1 or 2 will not result in success. Having the skills to aim, dodge, and make good use of the classes' other abilities will aid in success. In Class Based modification, classes such as Metalman, Airman, Fireman, etc. have very easy to hit moves that require no ammo and no kind of risk. I'm not sure if this is supposed to be some kind of role but from what I'm seeng it's not very thought out.
By the way, Justified also suffers from homing and any ill fate you listed CBM for.
The homing capabilities in Justified Classes are drastically toned down in both range and traction compared to Class Based Modification where they are almost identical to their copywep counterparts.
Strange when Metalman's design concept in both mods is to just hold M1. Sure, you have ceiling/floor blades, but that's still only holding M1.
CatMario (Pluto, for the less-fun) can just hold his one buster and keep going.
There we go.
Buster.
See that's where you started to contradict yourself.
Busters usually require no ammo to use.
ANY class with a buster can just M1 and win.
By the way, Justified also suffers from homing and any ill fate you listed CBM for.
Actually yea I'm going to address what I put the subject as.
You edited your post and edits aren't shown anymore/only on the first post.
Stop trying to clean yourself; you're only making yourself dirtier.
>Lad saying CBM Metalman is bad because you can M1
>Justified Metalman is three shots-delay, still requiring no ammo but is held for constant M1
>Aiming somehow justifies holding down only M1 to get kills
>Pluto homing is balanced
>Pluto is balanced
I'm done here
This is why I hate Justified.
Musashi put it best, let us discuss these controversial topics, we're not muslims here on Cutstuff, after all.
Musashi put it best, let us discuss these controversial topics, we're not muslims here on Cutstuff, after all.
Quote from: "MusashiAA"Now now, boys.
I'm left here to imply that JC defines classes without little to no disadvantages or limitations at all, for the sake of making all classes "usable in all scenarios".
I don't agree with this at all. To give one example: a melee-centered, close range class shouldn't be given a projectile attack because of its limitations being made more evident in a long range fight or when fighting against a class with a long range weapon. Instead, it should be given the ability to cut down the range or resist the long range fight or momentarily dodge or block attacks. Eliminating the disadvantages to what you would call a class eliminates the essence of classes being role-centered (<<<<THIS IS A FACT), and instead gives a class two or three wildly different abilities, which just makes a class imbalanced or undefinable, and defeats the purpose of letting players fill in the limitations with their own wit, or to mantain classes within the boundaries of its role.
I agree with you on this point, because there are classes in Justified that fight like this. For example, Slashman where he has no projectile attacks but has lots of mobility options to make up for it. However Class Based Modification fails to accomplish this goal effectively mostly due to the extreme gimmicks players are forced to adhere to. For example, Needleman has no way of getting close to another player since his mobility is terrible and does not have enough armour to shrug off direct hits. His abilities and attacks are only useful at point blank range and terrible at even mid range combat. Let's not forget that Class Based Modification's version doesn't even properly portray Needleman but instead more so portrays TF2 Heavy.
This is what CBM struggles with, that's truth.
So now we have a more clear differentiation between both mods: CBM sees role limitations as a tolerable (may I add sometimes purposeful) factor, while JC...doesn't?
Justified Classes does take roles into consideration but not in a way that it would hinder the classes' ability to perform in situations.
But JC does hinder a class' potentiality in some cases because of the boss form commandment. To give one example, JC Hardman. Another, JC Napalmman. Another one, JC Crashman. These classes give up control or abilities for the sake of source fidelity, which hinders the experience and difficults balance.
EDIT: My input here is that this attempt at ironing the limitations, as if they were a bad thing, just results in giving players a less fluctuating online experience, in the sense of a lack of difficulty when facing other players and the abilities to overcome it with strategy. I guess I would call this "handholding"?
Your perspective on my idea is misconceived, I am simply saying that classes that aren't given the compulsory tools or don't have a good balance in abilities to make a role or gimmick work then there are many instances where classes are put in an unfair situation. What Justified Classes is doing is not "handholding" but giving each class a mostly if not equal opportunity to shine in their own individual way. Putting the class in an unfair situation will not make a challenge but instead make a frustrating experience for the player. Especially when one player is putting out double the effort using a disadvantaged class against someone using a class that exploits the map or counters the user's class.
CBM classes weren't designed to be or to have hard counters by design in most cases. The cases where it does happen, it's either on purpose or a straight up design flaw: we will not know this for sure until it is released to the public. When applied online and massively, what the devteam may consider as balanced sometimes does not stand, and this is why testing is not just a closed door occurance: when people play an online game, this is considered as mass testing that may or may not end up opening the road to new changes.
To be blunt, I think you're overreacting to general disadvantage situations because of very specific scenarios in which limitations are made more obvious. I look at these kind of "unfair matchups" with the solution of class change: you are not fixated into using only one class...not to say that this serves as an excuse for actual imbalance issues, and generally the CBM devteam doesn't try to resort to this kind of arguments. I think it's unfair to say CBM hasn't done anything to view and resolve certain matchups, and it's not like it's a piece of cake with over 40 classes and an absurd amount of possible matchups.
This is why I used the term "handholding" when refering to this exagerated point of view JC has over disadvantages. It's ok to not be able to fight off enemies you can't handle easily, and if it's technically impossible for you to fight these enemies as one class, try another, and we'll look into this as a potential issue.
Musashi put it best, let us discuss these controversial topics, we're not muslims here on Cutstuff, after all.
Quote from: "Clayton"Quote from: "MusashiAA"Now now, boys.
I'm left here to imply that JC defines classes without little to no disadvantages or limitations at all, for the sake of making all classes "usable in all scenarios".
I don't agree with this at all. To give one example: a melee-centered, close range class shouldn't be given a projectile attack because of its limitations being made more evident in a long range fight or when fighting against a class with a long range weapon. Instead, it should be given the ability to cut down the range or resist the long range fight or momentarily dodge or block attacks. Eliminating the disadvantages to what you would call a class eliminates the essence of classes being role-centered (<<<<THIS IS A FACT), and instead gives a class two or three wildly different abilities, which just makes a class imbalanced or undefinable, and defeats the purpose of letting players fill in the limitations with their own wit, or to mantain classes within the boundaries of its role.
I agree with you on this point, because there are classes in Justified that fight like this. For example, Slashman where he has no projectile attacks but has lots of mobility options to make up for it. However Class Based Modification fails to accomplish this goal effectively mostly due to the extreme gimmicks players are forced to adhere to. For example, Needleman has no way of getting close to another player since his mobility is terrible and does not have enough armour to shrug off direct hits. His abilities and attacks are only useful at point blank range and terrible at even mid range combat. Let's not forget that Class Based Modification's version doesn't even properly portray Needleman but instead more so portrays TF2 Heavy.
This is what CBM struggles with, that's truth.
So now we have a more clear differentiation between both mods: CBM sees role limitations as a tolerable (may I add sometimes purposeful) factor, while JC...doesn't?
Justified Classes does take roles into consideration but not in a way that it would hinder the classes' ability to perform in situations.
But JC does hinder a class' potentiality in some cases because of the boss form commandment. To give one example, JC Hardman. Another, JC Napalmman. Another one, JC Crashman. These classes give up control or abilities for the sake of source fidelity, which hinders the experience and difficults balance.
"These classes give up control or abilities for the sake of source fidelity, which hinders the experience and difficult balance." How so? Any possible scenarios or examples that can be given to demonstrate this point?
EDIT: My input here is that this attempt at ironing the limitations, as if they were a bad thing, just results in giving players a less fluctuating online experience, in the sense of a lack of difficulty when facing other players and the abilities to overcome it with strategy. I guess I would call this "handholding"?
Your perspective on my idea is misconceived, I am simply saying that classes that aren't given the compulsory tools or don't have a good balance in abilities to make a role or gimmick work then there are many instances where classes are put in an unfair situation. What Justified Classes is doing is not "handholding" but giving each class a mostly if not equal opportunity to shine in their own individual way. Putting the class in an unfair situation will not make a challenge but instead make a frustrating experience for the player. Especially when one player is putting out double the effort using a disadvantaged class against someone using a class that exploits the map or counters the user's class.
CBM classes weren't designed to be or to have hard counters by design in most cases. The cases where it does happen, it's either on purpose or a straight up design flaw: we will not know this for sure until it is released to the public. When applied online and massively, what the devteam may consider as balanced sometimes does not stand, and this is why testing is not just a closed door occurance: when people play an online game, this is considered as mass testing that may or may not end up opening the road to new changes.
To be blunt, I think you're overreacting to general disadvantage situations because of very specific scenarios in which limitations are made more obvious. I look at these kind of "unfair matchups" with the solution of class change: you are not fixated into using only one class...not to say that this serves as an excuse for actual imbalance issues, and generally the CBM devteam doesn't try to resort to this kind of arguments. I think it's unfair to say CBM hasn't done anything to view and resolve certain matchups, and it's not like it's a piece of cake with over 40 classes and an absurd amount of possible matchups.
Tomahawkman and Punk have not recieved any sort of nerfing in the past three versions. They are by far the most try-hard classes to go to if a player desperately wants to win. And I'm sorry, but I don't think it's really possible to let a class like Magmaman get past the beta testing stages; everything about Magmaman is so overpowered. His non-charged shots can easily win him games due to how rapid fire they are and when fully charged you are guaranteed to kill at least one person no matter how bad you are (even if you use a keyboard). I'd say that this perspective is causing more hurt for the players when they are forced to play with imbalanced classes for an X amount of time.
This is why I used the term "handholding" when refering to this exagerated point of view JC has over disadvantages. It's ok to not be able to fight off enemies you can't handle easily, and if it's technically impossible for you to fight these enemies as one class, try another, and we'll look into this as a potential issue.
I consider classes that people rely on to win as "handholding", and there are many examples of classes like these in Class Based Modification (such as Magmaman, Galaxyman, Diveman, Magnetman, Tomahawkman, Skullman, Flashman, etc.). A player really shouldn't be forced to switch classes just because they are put in an unfair situation. However sometimes it can't even be helped when one person is using a perfect class with no counters.
Sooo... what's the deal with getting over the conflict and simply call an agreement on a final classes mod?
That would for instance, benefit of Justified's top notch graphics and high-quality canon ressources, + the most successful 2D-NES to FPS game classes convertion,
and get the devotion of the CBM team regarding balance, improved classes uniqueness & smoothness, (and eventually vanilla-scaled damage values but that's subjective).
There were proposals about KY classes and YD classes merging once. I don't think the devs really talked about merging. Either way, I like having two different design philosophies going into classes. If you had asked me which version of classes was better before the recent patches, I would have said CBM without a doubt. The MM9 classes feel really sloppy though and I think they're stumbling to come up with useful designs for Magmaman right now. Meanwhile, JC is buggy at times but I think they'll be able to explore more interesting designs once that dev team becomes more experienced with programming and testing.
I remember playing JC when it first came out and thought it was incredibly slow-paced for me, while CBM would always have 1-2 broken classes that were ripe for abuse, such as Magmaman. I can't say which is better overall, but in my head I imagine CBM being better for DM and CTF, where the action is fast and you need to get kills quickly, while JC would be more suited for TLMS/LMS, where there's no health and the lower damage-per-second of all the classes means you can't simply bumrush the other team, resulting in (slightly) more interesting gameplay.
I don't think you really played the most recent version enough. We buffed nearly every class so that games don't last half as long. And I'm guessing you use Airman in Class Based Modification DM because I certainly got that from what you said. Seriously, Class Based Modification DM? All you have to do to win is just use a spammy class like Airman, Napalmman, Magmaman, Tomahawkman, etc.
Oh, and one more thing. I know you can't control what your dev team does, Fyone, but if you could please instruct all the members of your team to stop shilling (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shill) for JC in the CBM servers, that'd be greeeeeat. A couple of weeks ago I saw Fr3ak come into a TLMS server to talk about JC while this past week has been filled with random people entering the servers and talking about why CBM is so bad. I don't think they were all devs, but it's starting to annoy the crap out of me. If they could please place their opinions on this topic instead of the servers, I'd greatly appreciate it.
We're not going to "instruct" devteam members to behave on servers, if they want to cause a fuss in a server that's their problem not ours.
CBM (the mod formerly known as YD Classes) has a design philosophy that revolves around taking the robot master's weapons and exaggerating their strengths and weaknesses to create a class that's quite good in one respect, but struggles in others. This method allows the classes to stray from their original RM's design in the interest of squeezing out more fun. However, this exaggerated power structure results in a fast paced, frantic style that in turn breeds many classes with one-hit kills, unavoidable damage, powerful lockdown skills, and other absurd attacks designed to highlight their strengths to the point where Hardman relies more on his Hard Jet to pull himself out of trouble than his large health pool being able to withstand it and the game begins to devolve into "how do I kill everyone before they can kill me" (Gravity Man, Elec Man, Galaxy Man, Magma Man) or "how do I block/evade the bullshit for long enough to be the last man standing" (Skull Man, Wood Man, Gyro Man, Gravity Man)
Class Based Modification doesn't exaggerate the strengths of robot masters, they make most classes have high damage input and low armor (with the exception of Magmaman, Tomahawkman and Punk). From what I'm reading here, Class Based Modification's selling point is the ability to use powerful classes and win games.
Justified (the mod formerly known as KY Classes), however, focuses on staying true to the robot master's classic tool kit, balancing around normalizing those strengths and weaknesses as opposed to exaggerating them. This results in an environment where scoring a frag relies more on critical thinking and pressing what few advantages each class's kit can provide as opposed to finding the attack that can rip apart Hardman in less than a second and spamming it down a narrow hallway. While such an approach provides an environment where most of the classes feel relatively on par with each other, some of the satisfaction factor of obtaining the aforementioned advantages is taken away, making the classes feel weak. In addition, power disparities in the classes end up amplified by the lack thereof, and classes with any sort of reliable or semi-reliable damage (Slash Man, Plant Man, Oil Man, Gemini Man, Magic Man) find themselves at a huge advantage, while classes with potentially high but inconsistent payoffs (Wood Man, Pirate Man, Skull Man, Burner Man) are painful to play as the team seems to value potential over practicality when determining the numbers.
I take it that you think classes such as Woodman, Pirateman, Skullman and Burnerman deal damage in a difficult manor while Slashman, Plantman, Oilman and Geminiman deal easy damage. Woodman is a shield class that gets complete invincibility. The shield attack also inflicts 1/4 of hp with a direct hit. Yes he is slow but his armour and invincibility balances it out. You could really view Woodman as a class that uses a role, where the shield acts like an aiming period for the player to get a good angle and hit on the opponent(s). If the shot is difficult to attempt the player can simple use the altfire to cover his/her escape. This is a prime example of a class gimmick that works. Pirate Man has manipulable Flash Bombs which he can change direction to trap his/her opponents. The altfire can be used as an escape or a finisher. Really it comes down to learning the class and its capabilities in combat, and the amount of uses each move has. Class Based Modication's classes are a lot less intuitive in this sense.
Which approach is better? I personally don't feel there is a right choice or a wrong one. CBM's classes feel immediately satisfying to play and stay true to vanilla's rapid pace (provided you live long enough to utilize them), while JC's classes provide a slower, more tactical and well thought-out game (most of the time). Which one I prefer really depends on what I'm in the mood for at the time. However, I do agree that both of them are flawed in their own ways based on their respective strategies.
I find this statement wrong in a few senses. Personally I think Vanilla falls more in the middle of Class Based Modification and Justified Classes where it strays from the original canon games more than Justified Classes but not as much as Class Based Modification. Vanilla is able to keep a rapid pace since it follows a completely different gameplay style than Class mods where all players are given a near identical circumstance and fight off by picking up weapons and utilizing them the best way they can. Class Based Modification tries too hard to replicate such a philosophy (which is impossible to do since it is a class-centric mod) and I feel this is what ruins the mod the most.
CBM's classes feel immediately satisfying to play and stay true to vanilla's rapid pace (provided you live long enough to utilize them)
literally looking through every single class in both mods, and I'm finding equally as many "i kill u no counterplay huehuehue" classes in each.
stop making shit up.
while JC's classes provide a slower, more tactical and well thought-out game (most of the time).
When every class has 2 megabuster variants, you bet your ass you have a more tactical game.
For the absolute worst reason possible.
Quote from: "xColdxFusionx"CBM's classes feel immediately satisfying to play and stay true to vanilla's rapid pace (provided you live long enough to utilize them)
literally looking through every single class in both mods, and I'm finding equally as many "i kill u no counterplay huehuehue" classes in each.
Any examples to name for Justified? It would be much appreciated.
stop making shit up.
while JC's classes provide a slower, more tactical and well thought-out game (most of the time).
When every class has 2 megabuster variants, you bet your ass you have a more tactical game.
Any classes in particular that share this quality? As far as I know there isn't one class in the Justified Classes mod that have 2 Mega Buster variants in any of their weapons.
For the absolute worst reason possible.
I'd also like to point out when a dev maniacally defends their game and bashes the competition, you need to rethink who you support.
First of all, Justified is simply a little mod out of a mod of doom, I wouldn't care less about what people think in the end. However I will debunk any kind of false statements or vague claims that people have about Justified Classes. If the opposing party does not wish to do the same that's up to them.
Two entirely different mods for two entirely different groups of people.
You're literally comparing solitaire to minesweeper.
Lot's of words that I don't need to show that I'm quoting you.
If you like Class Based Modification better than Justified Classes with no reasoning but "I just think it feels better" or "JC is extremely bland" than I have absolutely nothing to follow up with since there is no changing such ignorant mindsets.
Stop saying that CBM sucks because "all you have to do" is pick a certain class to win. ... Every game that has such an overload of characters is going to have a couple of Akumas and Dan Hibikis in it. There's simply no possible way to balance something of this scope perfectly without making everything completely boring.
Quote from: "Clayton"If you like Class Based Modification better than Justified Classes with no reasoning but "I just think it feels better" or "JC is extremely bland" than I have absolutely nothing to follow up with since there is no changing such ignorant mindsets.
As I said, generally this topic are people's opinions on what class they like better. Except the end of this calling it "ignorant mindsets" clearly states that people who prefer CBM to Justified are ignorant and wrong, which is outright ridiculous. You are saying that this topic is Musashi's goal to make himself feel better about CBM when it's incredibly open, but Clayton here is jumping in saying that if you think CBM is better that you have an "ignorant mindset" and thus are wrong and there's nothing else to say.
Which is absolutely ridiculous and not the way anyone should act.
You are again like before reading my post completely wrong, I never said that thinking Class Based Modification is better than Justified Classes is ignorant and wrong. What I said was that giving no explanation or evidence behind such a claim is ignorant and wrong.dude you make no sense.
If you like Class Based Modification more than Justified Classes that is completely fine and your opinion.
Quote from: "Dr. Freeman"Quote from: "Clayton"If you like Class Based Modification better than Justified Classes with no reasoning but "I just think it feels better" or "JC is extremely bland" than I have absolutely nothing to follow up with since there is no changing such ignorant mindsets.
As I said, generally this topic are people's opinions on what class they like better. Except the end of this calling it "ignorant mindsets" clearly states that people who prefer CBM to Justified are ignorant and wrong, which is outright ridiculous. You are saying that this topic is Musashi's goal to make himself feel better about CBM when it's incredibly open, but Clayton here is jumping in saying that if you think CBM is better that you have an "ignorant mindset" and thus are wrong and there's nothing else to say.
Which is absolutely ridiculous and not the way anyone should act.
You are again like before reading my post completely wrong, I never said that thinking Class Based Modification is better than Justified Classes is ignorant and wrong. What I said was that giving no explanation or evidence behind such a claim is ignorant and wrong.
What makes this a pissing contest is the whole point of the thread was to start another pointless, toxic pissing contest over which class mod is better, and for Musashi to go on an extended shpiel about everything he thinks is wrong with Justified. If he doesn't like the approach, fine, but this was all kinds of the wrong way to go about it. What was this supposed to accomplish? What was the endgame of this thread?Quote from: "Shmeckie"Lot's of words that I don't need to show that I'm quoting you.
I really don't know if we're reading the same topic here. Musashi is indeed part of the CBM dev team to my knowledge, but in no way is this a personal attack. In fact, in his opening posts he said what CBM did right, what JC did right, and what both did wrong as well. That seemed pretty anti bias. In fact, generally this whole topic is running smoothly with people saying which they prefer (which is the point of the topic) and except for Clayton butting in every time someone has a negative opinion on Justified, (and Rozark's brief yet unnecessary stuff against Dan) the opinions have been well formed, and people seem to be taking them with some semblance of respect.
The fact you you honestly believe this is a "pissing contest" is outstanding. Musashi's first post didn't consist of him saying, "CBM IS REALLY GOOD AND JUSTIFIED SUCKS" instead he talked about pros and cons with both class mods and asked what people think. When Dan came in saying he preferred Justified, and everyone took it fine. (except previously mentioned Rozark)
Bik is accurate that these are indeed two different classes mods, but no one is attacking JC and no one is attacking CBM. So at the same time I see no reason to call the cops and close this topic on grounds of Musashi making this to spite you. Because that's not what's happening at all.
Musashi, this was foolish, this was childish, and I'm damn disappointed that this thread got this big.
There's a lot of drama-loving younger players around these parts that just cannot live with the notion that people play this game the way they don't like to play it. And boy howdy do the folks at Cutstuff love to bicker. So of course people flock to this thread to do just that! Because rather than just not play the mod you don't like, and focus on the ones you do, let's throw a hissy fit!So you're taking the whole debate with people's elaborate responses, labeling it bickering and calling out the whole community on it? Hypocrisy at its finest. You shouldn't cry wolf when you're the first one to bite.
pointless, toxic pissing contestYou're the only one being toxic here. There were no shots fired until this shit right here.
Foregoing the fact the one-liner at the end there doesn't really make sense, how do responses being elaborate give them some kind of instant merit?Quote from: "Shmeckie"Musashi, this was foolish, this was childish, and I'm damn disappointed that this thread got this big.Quote from: "Shmeckie"There's a lot of drama-loving younger players around these parts that just cannot live with the notion that people play this game the way they don't like to play it. And boy howdy do the folks at Cutstuff love to bicker. So of course people flock to this thread to do just that! Because rather than just not play the mod you don't like, and focus on the ones you do, let's throw a hissy fit!So you're taking the whole debate with people's elaborate responses, labeling it bickering and calling out the whole community on it? Hypocrisy at its finest. You shouldn't cry wolf when you're the first one to bite.
How is that even toxic? I'm kinda befuddled, here. "Toxic" doesn't mean "not being nice," it means this only hurts things, sets us back, gets us nowhere, etc. How is one long thread that's no better than kids on GameFAQs arguing which console is better helpful or productive in any way?Quote from: "Shmeckie"pointless, toxic pissing contestYou're the only one being toxic here. There were no shots fired until this shit right here.
How is one long thread that's no better than kids on GameFAQs arguing which console is better helpful or productive in any way?Because through it, players can express their actual feelings about the mods, and developers can look at the feelings from an objective standpoint and see if any action is required.
Criticisms towards the different mods can go into their respective topics though, right? Like Bik said, they are different mods made for different people, and there's not really much reason to compare them. I don't really play either, but from my understanding, some people enjoy the balanced and level feeling of Justified Classes while some people like the diversity and whackiness of YD classes. And that's...fine? If people have specific issues with the different mods, they can discuss them in the respective topics. Clearly, the main thing really happening in this topic is fighting over needless comparisons.Quote from: "Shmeckie"How is one long thread that's no better than kids on GameFAQs arguing which console is better helpful or productive in any way?Because through it, players can express their actual feelings about the mods, and developers can look at the feelings from an objective standpoint and see if any action is required.
Judging by earlier comments, the Justified developers don't seem to value the opinions stated in this thread very highly.