- The stun guns make it a bit too easy to catch players with the insta-kill melee. You can even shoot them repeatedly as you approach to ensure that they don't get away.
- The smoke bomb and cardboard box don't seem very useful. The smoke bomb just doesn't do a whole lot compared to the other support tools, and the cardboard box is even worse. Even using it as a decoy almost never works.
but cardboard box is mgsidontcare
- The invisible players really need some kind of mobility tool to ensure that the Light players can't just use Thunder Claw, Freeze Cracker, totem poling, or any other such means to climb out of reach and camp for all eternity. (In fact, in one round on MM2CRA, someone spawned in one of the cubbyholes and was able to sit there in complete safety for the entire round. I suppose the Wily Team could have totem poled to reach him, but we didn't know he was there until it was too late.)I would agree that this is an issue, but fixing it would be against the spirit of the mode. I'd rather leave it to be fixed through time limits and recommended maplists rather than a different aspect of the mode.
- The stun guns make it a bit too easy to catch players with the insta-kill melee. You can even shoot them repeatedly as you approach to ensure that they don't get away.If unaware, yeah, that could be considered part of sneakiness. Usually jumping means its easy to avoid a second shot or a stab and you can always shoot back when you're stunned, but maybe it could be brought back to v0 levels or use Ceri's suggestion to only half-stun on second shots or something
- The smoke bomb and cardboard box don't seem very useful. The smoke bomb just doesn't do a whole lot compared to the other support tools, and the cardboard box is even worse. Even using it as a decoy almost never works.Eh? Smoke Bombs are pretty good in any narrow passage because they won't be able to see if you're running or waiting for a stab. The slow makes them easy pickings and the gas sfx masks your footsteps, it just has issues being used anywhere open. Maybe it could have more ammo. PS. I love the box and next ver (if it doesn't already) you won't be visible inside it whether it's alert or not so that should be good. Decoys are actually really good, try placing one over a mine or in the other side of a corner to lure.
- Some of the weapons available to the Light players are almost always more useful than others in the same group. For instance, you can expect the majority of the Light players to be using Thunder Beam in any given round.Personal preference. I MUCH prefer Blizzard Attack or Gyro Attack to Thunder Beam. While some weapons might get much less use (like Search Snake hue) the options are always there and I'd say no weapon sticks out way more than the rest, especially when fire rate / power / ammo are all important factors in TSNE.
-I wish the knifes range can have the v0 range. I think its just slightly shorter of S.Claw now, and that is kinda far.Don't make suggestions to change balance unless you can explain why it would fix a potential problem with the mod's balance. Thing about the knife is even if it went as far as Slash Claw, which it doesn't, it does not have an explosion radius multiplying its effective range.
-Flying boxes. No +Gravity why?To fix this would be -NOGRAVITY. Do your research (http://www.zdoom.org/wiki/) if you're going to try to sound like you know what you're talking about.
actor CardboardBoxDummy
{
scale 2.5
+SOLID
+SHOOTABLE
PROJECTILE
radius 24
height 32
health 20
mass 999999999If you employ the projectile combo and want something to fall, you must remove the NOGRAVITY flag. In this case, however, it would cause the box to hit the ground and die instantly, which is why I would also recommend employing +HEXENBOUNCE and bouncefactor 0.01 in the properties block because NOEXPLODEFLOOR breaks online in Zandronum at the moment.-Why do the spies (sorry but this is shorter to say) have to stop after slashing? Couldn't they have a very slow ROF?Mechanics. This does two things:
-Why don't mines go away after use?...You're gonna need to clarify...
-Everyone said this but the stun on the stun gun is way too long. You said jump to avoid a second shot but its way to long for that too.It's just spark shock stun...you can jump.
-Why is Bubble and Wave range and melee?This question isn't even literate.
-Will spy teammates keep tripping on mines?This can be fixed with some simple jump states that check the target's inventory for the invisible team items.
'm not a developer and I hope Maxine won't have my head for this but I'm responding to these anyway.Quote from: "BookofDobson"-I wish the knifes range can have the v0 range. I think its just slightly shorter of S.Claw now, ed that is kinda far.Don't make suggestions to change balance unless you can explain why it would fix a potential problem with the mod's balance. Thing about the knife is even if it went as far as Slash Claw, which it doesn't, it does not have an explosion radius multiplying its effective range.Quote from: "BookofDobson"-Flying boxes. No +Gravity why?To fix this would be -NOGRAVITY. Do your research (http://www.zdoom.org/wiki/) if you're going to try to sound like you know what you're talking about.
However, you are somewhat correct...Code: [Select]actor CardboardBoxDummyIf you employ the projectile combo and want something to fall, you must remove the NOGRAVITY flag. In this case, however, it would cause the box to hit the ground and die instantly, which is why I would also recommend employing +HEXENBOUNCE and bouncefactor 0.01 in the properties block because NOEXPLODEFLOOR breaks online in Zandronum at the moment.
{
scale 2.5
+SOLID
+SHOOTABLE
PROJECTILE
radius 24
height 32
health 20
mass 999999999
While I'm at it, it is a necessity for these actors remove the NOBLOCKMAP flag, which is also given by the projectile property as it prevents SHOOTABLE from even mattering.Quote from: "BookofDobson"-Why do the spies (sorry but this is shorter to say) have to stop after slashing? Couldn't they have a very slow ROF?Mechanics. This does two things:
1) Diversifies them from just being straight melee humans.
2) Forces at least some strategy when playing the point and click buggers by adding risk involved when using it.Quote from: "BookofDobson"-Why don't mines go away after use?...You're gonna need to clarify...
If you mean how they stick to the ceiling after they've gone off, I can't figure it out, myself. The code looks fine to me.
If you mean the item isn't taken from you after use?
Well I haven't played the mod enough to know, so...
On the subject of this, it is quite strange that you're simply "forced off" the "trap" slot when you try and select it and it's empty rather than it just removing the weapon from your inventory outright.Quote from: "BookofDobson"-Everyone said this but the stun on the stun gun is way too long. You said jump to avoid a second shot but its way to long for that too.It's just spark shock stun...you can jump.
:XQuote from: "BookofDobson"-Why is Bubble and Wave range and melee?This question isn't even literate.
To go with that, Water Wave isn't even in the range category.
Bubble Lead is in melee because it's a strong weapon in close quarters.
Water Wave is in rapid because it's a fast weapon that covers a large area of ground.
The reason these aren't in ranged is because they can be jumped over and not aimed up, which severely limit how the weapons can be used.Quote from: "BookofDobson"-Will spy teammates keep tripping on mines?This can be fixed with some simple jump states that check the target's inventory for the invisible team items.
Returning at the end of the post to say that I am not a developer for this mod and am only commenting on these suggestions.
I saw the first one and got mad because balance complaints this soon after a mod's release is unhealthy.
-Everyone said this but the stun on the stun gun is way too long. You said jump to avoid a second shot but its way to long for that too.Quote from: "Lego"It's just spark shock stun...you can jump.
:XQuote from: "BookofDobson"6. ... So are you telling me Spark is some stock stun and its duraration can not be adjusted? Oh wait... thats exactly what it is and jumping won't do squat. Even its a miss the spy can shoot it again because the rate of fire is fast enough.
Toxic/10you stop that (http://i.imgur.com/bGAbiPb.gif)
-I wish the knifes range can have the v0 range. I think its just slightly shorter of S.Claw now, and that is kinda far.This is something I can agree with, if only for the fact I managed to get two kills with a single knife slash today. I don't believe it should go back to V0 values though. Maxine currently has no plans of changing the knife's range, but I think if more people can provide evidence of knives acting stronger than they should be, a small range nerf could be in order.
-Flying boxes. No +Gravity why?This mod still is in beta, we apologize for the small visual bugs you might experience. Maxine has had to fix numerous bugs since v0 came out, and we thank you for pointing out a couple more.
-Why don't mines go away after use?
-Why do the spies (sorry but this is shorter to say) have to stop after slashing? Couldn't they have a very slow ROF?The knives allow a small window for the regular players to counter the spies or run away from them. If the spies didn't stop moving, they could simply hug the player until they had the chance to stab again, and that would not be fun.
-Everyone said this but the stun on the stun gun is way too long. You said jump to avoid a second shot but its way to long for that too.Stun Gun can be hard to land sometimes and it usually gives off the direction of the spy, meaning that the player has a chance to seek out the spy with their rapid weapon or fend them off with their melee attack. Although, it is very strong from mid-range right now, so it's possibly a tiny nerf might be implemented in the future.
-Why is Bubble and Wave range and melee?Bubble Lead is in melee because it's best used from close range, with a strong damage-per-second ratio that allows players to quickly take out spies with only a few hits.
-Will spy teammates keep tripping on mines?No, they will not. That should be fixed for the next version
Answers
just uh
just pointing out that what lego meant wasn't that it was spark's stun duration, but that it was its stun style, and that you could, indeed, still jump out of the way of additional shots
. Even its a miss the spy can shoot it again because the rate of fire is fast enough.
Even its a miss the spy can shoot it again because the rate of fire is fast enough.I don't think you understand how the "knife" is actually an extremely small and short-ranged projectile that causes the user to stand still for a brief moment on use. If you can't move out of the way or jump to avoid a possible 2nd shot, you need to re-evaluate your skill as a player, improve accordingly, then try to discuss knife balance.
Not to mention that you must consider the fact that the spy has no armor debuff and will be coming closer to make sure you don't move
Quote from: "BookofDobson"Even its a miss the spy can shoot it again because the rate of fire is fast enough.I don't think you understand how the "knife" is actually an extremely small and short-ranged projectile that causes the user to stand still for a brief moment on use. If you can't move out of the way or jump to avoid a possible 2nd shot, you need to re-evaluate your skill as a player, improve accordingly, then try to discuss knife balance.
Not to mention that you must consider the fact that the spy has no armor debuff and will be coming closer to make sure you don't move
Also, you have been very disrespectful and unnecessarily snarky to people in this thread. If you calm down and present arguments and facts rather than personal attacks and insults, people may take your views into consideration.
personal attacks and insults
Dobson, I feel like you are leaving out many important variables in your argument that stun gun is extremely powerful. It feels like you're only considering a one-on-one situation where the terrain is flat and the players are only 128 pixels from each other. You don't seem to consider the idea that stun gun's ammo is limited and that teammates can come to the player's aide or that the player is ever capable of dodging a single stun shot and re-engaging on the spy. A spy is not entirely invisible either, especially when their footsteps are seen and heard.
Maxine plans to nerf stun gun's ammo for next version, so hopefully you don't need to dodge as many shots as before, and spies don't feel encouraged to spam their way to a free kill.
It feels like you're only considering a one-on-one situation where the terrain is flat and the players are only 128 pixels from each other.No I'm not. In fact, what I am talking about would not work if its like halfway across the map. Nor the terrain has to be flat. However I do feel you are saying this stun is exactly like the spark shock when it is not.
You don't seem to consider the idea that stun gun's ammo is limited.... You guys wonder why I'm so toxic
teammates can come to the player's aide or that the player is ever capable of dodging a single stun shot and re-engaging on the spy. A spy is not entirely invisible either, especially when their footsteps are seen and heard. (Basically Implying: You are stupid and you cannot see the most obvious mechanics of the mod before complaining)
Why am I the only one being confronted like this?
Please excuse my atrocious formatting.[/spoiler][/quote](click to show/hide)
baseless arguments, insults, ego, and disrespect.You should practice what you preach dude
You still going? Holy shit.
Stop trying to cover your ass. You have failed. You fucked up.
Accept it.
End of discussion.
You have said nothing constructive after your initial point and you just derailed the topic completely.
You're done.
Ok thanks, I will be looking forward to the next version. And I can try to get proof of the knife range
I can say the same to you. You gonna keep playing dissection tennis?
I would agree that this [cubbyholes in MM2CRA, etc.] is an issue, but fixing it would be against the spirit of the mode. I'd rather leave it to be fixed through time limits and recommended maplists rather than a different aspect of the mode.I see where you're coming from here, but there could be ways to fix it that don't compromise the spirit of the mode, but still allow it to be more robust.
Secondly, I wonder, is there a reason you haven't incorporated altfire? The way I see it, I can see how altfire may not be the best choice because the knife is technically your "main weapon" and using weapnext/prev to switch altfires is a little weird, but it'd be something I'd consider if you haven't already. Options include stun and grenades as weapons 1 and 2 with knife on alt, or knife on main and stun/grenades as alts 1 and 2.Better yet, couldn't we have the knife on main, the stun gun on alt, and flashbangs/smoke bombs/mines as an item? Then we wouldn't have to do any weapon switching at all. (In fact, I was actually surprised the first time I played that the mines weren't items; they seem like a natural fit for it.)
As I mentioned to you (Maxine) over Skype, I'm still not entirely sold on all of these weapon categories. I guess it might take some more playing and watching to see what people use. While I think that in terms of categorization a fifth category might be in order, this of course increases the total amount of ammo blue players have. This could actually be a pretty clean way to buff the blue team a little bit down the road, but I don't think such is necessary.
I'll still be waiting for my decoy grenade/item that creates fake footsteps though >_>Was discussing this with Max earlier.
That awkward map showcase along with the chaff announcement.
Neat. More grenade variety is fun. I'll still be waiting for my decoy grenade/item that creates fake footsteps though >_>
Idea: Make a floor-hugger projectile of fake foot steps and maybe blind people if it explodes on a wallBeen going down this road for a while. There are very few ways to implement that concept without degrading the integrity of the footstep system.
Time for another joint map + weapon thingymajig it's ok if you don't care(click to show/hide)
People moving during weapon selection is still happening.It only takes one cheater to completely kill off a server. :ugeek:
stupid little KD hop travel method
I feel like there should be some kind of timer so camping doesn't take up a majority of the game time. I couldn't come up with one for GVH at the time so one never got implemented, but how about something like this: If no one has died in X amount of time, the red team gets revealed automatically. Timer gets reset if someone on the blue team dies. X should be like 3 minutes or something