Cutstuff Forum

Mega Man 8-bit Deathmatch => MM8BDM Discussion => Topic started by: a deer on October 16, 2010, 05:52:09 PM

Title: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: a deer on October 16, 2010, 05:52:09 PM
I know this isn't Street Fighter IV or anything, but what do you think are the strongest weapons? I'd put Top Spin, Blizzard Man's weapon, Napalms, Bombs, Drills and Crash Bombs and the Rolling Cutter pretty high up as I seem to get a lot of kills with those. Maybe Hard Knuckle too.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: CopShowGuy on October 16, 2010, 05:58:14 PM
Gravity Hold with W-tanks.  Mirror Buster in crowded games.  Ballade Cracker is pretty strong too.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Kirbu on October 16, 2010, 06:02:59 PM
Top Spin and Gravity Hold. I really like GH, but not Top Spin. Also, Star Crash and Blizzard Attack. Those two cut away at the competition and almost everybody gets these 2.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: a deer on October 16, 2010, 06:03:37 PM
Quote from: "CopShowGuy"
Gravity Hold with W-tanks.  Mirror Buster in crowded games.  Ballade Cracker is pretty strong too.

Never actually tried Gravity Hold. I'd assume it's in Gravity Man's stage though.

Star Crash is also great but not nearly as good as the Blizzard one I think
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Kirbu on October 16, 2010, 06:05:44 PM
Blizzard man's weapon should be number 1 on best weapons.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: CopShowGuy on October 16, 2010, 06:06:04 PM
Gravity Hold can be found in:
Dr. Wily Exterior, Gravity Man, Dark Man, and any stage where Eddie is.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: TrueTenguMan on October 16, 2010, 06:09:38 PM
Quote from: "Kirbu"
Blizzard man's weapon should be number 1 on best weapons.

Only because it takes large chunks out of one's HP? No, thats not a good reason to count it as  #1. :
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Mr. X on October 16, 2010, 06:15:28 PM
Please, God, no, not the tier lists!  The last thing we need is pointless arguing on which weapons are on which tiers.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Mikk- on October 16, 2010, 06:19:45 PM
GOD TIER
Centaur Flash

SHIT TIER
Everything else
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: a deer on October 16, 2010, 06:21:41 PM
Quote from: "Mr. X"
Please, God, no, not the tier lists!  The last thing we need is pointless arguing on which weapons are on which tiers.

What do you mean by pointless? I put tier list in quotation marks as this is just discussion on which weapons seem to be really really good.

I think the Blizzard man's weapon is great. This game is all about "taking large chunks out of one's HP", isn't it? It has a good ammo count, a decent firing speed and is not hard to aim at all. Because of its spread, you can land lucky hits as well. It's also great if you ambush someone.

Centaur Flash is good and has amazing range but I don't think it's "god tier"...the ammo runs out way too fast and the damage doesn't seem to be huge.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: TERRORsphere on October 16, 2010, 06:28:12 PM
The Afro Comb of Death.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Joseph Collins on October 16, 2010, 06:57:16 PM
Bubble Lead and Sakugarne for the win.

Anyone who disagrees is wrong and stupid.  :D
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: KillerChair on October 16, 2010, 07:12:18 PM
Centaur flash is the ultimate kill stealer!  :D
And I say hyper bombs are amazing in crowded servers.

But i use pretty much every weapon to kill people with. (exept for the dive missile... just doesnt do enough damage to kill)
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Blaziken on October 16, 2010, 07:20:01 PM
I've found that it's really easy to get a good kill streak going with the Bass buster if you have a good aim. It's also a really good revenging weapon or kill stealing weapon thanks to it's fast firing rate as well.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Korby on October 16, 2010, 07:47:46 PM
All the non-rapid fire weapons are high up. Why? Because it seems most of the weapons can kill in one-four hits!
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: PressStart on October 16, 2010, 07:57:34 PM
Gyro propeller thing is pretty tough...especially if you're just shooting a lot up close.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Max on October 16, 2010, 07:58:24 PM
Anything + Sv_fastweapons 2 + Runespread + Sv_infiniteammo 1 = Death. Lots of it.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Korby on October 16, 2010, 08:00:05 PM
Quote from: "Yellow Devil"
Anything + Sv_fastweapons 2 + Runespread + Sv_infiniteammo 1 = Death. Lots of it.
Especially if you use Crystal Eye.
SO. MANY. BALLS.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Max on October 16, 2010, 08:03:12 PM
That's what Clown man said!
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Korby on October 16, 2010, 08:03:56 PM
The sad part is that's probably true.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Max on October 16, 2010, 08:04:38 PM
I was there...

don't ask any more.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: NemZ on October 16, 2010, 08:33:07 PM
It's entirely situational, but the weapons I typically get the most out of are Blizzard Attack, Hyper Bomb, Air Shooter, Crystal Eye, Water Wave, Magnet Missile, Ballade Cracker, Yamato Spear and Napalm Bomb.

Of all those my favorite has to be the Crystal Eye, especially just taking the occational pot shot at someone from halfway across the map.  Nailing somebody completely out of nowhere with one of those big orbs is just so satisfying, and far more likely to be a kill shot than doing the same thing with any of the other potentially long range weapons.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Korby on October 16, 2010, 08:33:50 PM
Oh, right, combining Rush Jet and Hyper Bomb is a very dangerous thing. DO IT.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: KillerChair on October 16, 2010, 09:48:54 PM
Or as Cutmanmike showed... leaf shield and hyper bombs :p
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: TrueTenguMan on October 16, 2010, 10:12:52 PM
Magnet/Dive missile combined with water wave. Wave for distraction while the missiles do the work. Best combination I came up with ((probably not the only one really :p))
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: NemZ on October 17, 2010, 01:47:27 PM
If this is truely to be a discussion about weapon 'tiers' we need to be pointing out weapons we don't like as well as those we do.  Weapons I almost never use include:

Silver Tomahawk
Bubble Lead
Wind Storm
Super Arm
Pharaoh Shot
Proto Buster
Spark Shock
Dive Missile
Flash Stopper
Rain Flush
Leaf Shield
Skull Barrier
Plant Barrier (even assuming it actually worked)

Sakugarne and Top Spin avoid this list because while still crazy awkward, they're much more FUN than anything above.  If it was possible to get credit for hazard kills and redirected bombs then Leaf Shield and Wind Storm would step up to average.  It's also worth noting that some of these become much more worthwhile when playing non-deathmatch modes like last man standing and duel.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: TrueTenguMan on October 17, 2010, 03:51:44 PM
Quote from: "NemZ"
Bubble Lead
Wind Storm
Spark Shock
Dive Missile
Rain Flush
The one's I took out were mainly those that I can agree with... however the others I left here I find ludicrous that they're avoided. Apparently in specific environments, windstorm can be your enemy in tight corners, especially if you manage to blow your opponent off the stage or even into a pit. I would say this weapon will be more effective in Air man stage.

I have to agree that Super arm can be useless at times, but thats only if you don't know how to use it with another weapon. Really weapons like these need a buddy for support, which is why I created the Missile/water wave combination ((Well I probably didn't Create it FIRST but just bear with me)). Since Water wave can keep people back while you gain distance, your opponent is too preoccupied dodging water to move fast enough to avoid the homing  missiles, which is why I still find Dive Missile useful. Besides, if your listing Dive in there, may as well put Magnet, am I right? I'd say Dive is better mainly for more WP than Magnet, but thats my opinion...

Rain Flush? Avoided? Sad... this is the best protector anyone can wish for thats not considered an explosive. Even if your no where near where you left your opponent confused from your maneuvering, you can set up surprise attacks and or extra damage with this thing or even another distraction while using Rolling cutter or Spark Shock or even Needle Cannon. Speaking of Spark Shot... it's not even suppose to be an offensive weapon, so how this is avoided considering it's ability to stun and distort vision is still funny.

Bubble led is slow, but then again, it works better in tight areas. Wide open areas is when it's pointless to use it. Remember!!!  location location location...
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Mr. X on October 17, 2010, 03:54:43 PM
Bubble Lead and Wind Storm are awesome.  I also think Silver Tomahawk is pretty good, especially in Bubble Man's stage.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: TrueTenguMan on October 17, 2010, 04:15:05 PM
Quote from: "Mr. X"
I also think Silver Tomahawk is pretty good, especially in Bubble Man's stage.

I just use it if I run out of WP on my other weapons. In all honestly I suck with it no matter where I'm at. Though in regards to damage, it's very good
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: NemZ on October 17, 2010, 05:11:48 PM
Well then gentlemen... have at you!

Quote from: "TrueTenguMan"
windstorm can be your enemy in tight corners, especially if you manage to blow your opponent off the stage or even into a pit.

Yeah, but you don't get a frag for that.  Knocking someone else down a notch is almost insignificant compared to getting a frag yourself, and even more so as the number of players increases.  In team, lms or duel games it's equal to a frag though, so in those modes it's better.  Both it and Bubble Lead are still second-rate for sheer damage dealing though and have huge situational drawbacks... almost everywhere you go there's a step or two for the opposition to jump on or hide behind.

Quote
Really weapons like these need a buddy for support, which is why I created the Missile/water wave combination.

If you've already got a better weapon I fail to see why you don't just use them and stop messing around with inferior options.  Water Wave is more than capable of getting frags on it's own and switching back and forth with dive will only make dodging the waves much easier and the waves are a far bigger threat.

Quote
if your listing Dive in there, may as well put Magnet, am I right?

You can fire 5 more dive missiles, which seem to travel slower and do only 1/3 as much damage as Magnet.  Even assuming perfect accuracy Dive can't even kill someone from full health without picking up more ammo, while Magnet assuming only 50% accuracy can get that frag and still have a shot left.  There's really no contest here.

Quote
Rain Flush? Avoided? Sad... this is the best protector anyone can wish for thats not considered an explosive.

It's easily avoidable due to the startup lag on firing, and does very low damage considering it's ammo cost.  An opponent with only the normal buster can kill you before you get off a third shot and leave with half or more of their life bar untouched.  Gravity and to a lesser extent Centaur are much better options for wide area attacks and kill stealing in terms of damage, speed, and ammo consumption.

Quote
Speaking of Spark Shot...

Spark shock doesn't stun long enough to make all that much difference unless you just spam it (making it somewhat more attractive in duels), but I'd still rather just use a real weapon.

Quote
Bubble led is slow, but then again, it works better in tight areas.

So does almost every other weapon.

Quote from: "Mr. X"
Silver Tomahawk is pretty good, especially in Bubble Man's stage.

Tomahawk is essentially a much harder to aim Gemini beam with no chance of rebound hits.  Gemini is a mid-level weapon at best, so what does that say about Tomahawk?
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Mr. X on October 17, 2010, 05:28:06 PM
Quote from: "Mr. X"
Please, God, no, not the tier lists!  The last thing we need is pointless arguing on which weapons are on which tiers.

I warned you all!
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: NemZ on October 17, 2010, 05:36:27 PM
But it isn't pointless argument if it identifies  weapons that could use some pimping or nerfing.  Better balance = more variety for serious play = more fun in the long run.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Mr. X on October 17, 2010, 05:39:46 PM
Yes, but clearly some players are better at using certain weapons than others.  For example, I can get kills with Gemini Laser like there's no tomorrow but I can't use the Proto Upgrade at all.  A lot of these pros and cons are people's tastes.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: TrueTenguMan on October 17, 2010, 07:13:37 PM
Quote from: "NemZ"
If you've already got a better weapon I fail to see why you don't just use them and stop messing around with inferior options.
"Then lets all have rocket launchers and machine guns since they give you more kills"

Every weapon has a significant use, Not all of them are guaranteed to give you a kill or JUST a kill period. Experimentation is what counts towards using different weapons and creating combinations. This game allows such an option that most seem to ignore from time to time and this is what makes Tengu sad T_T

 
Quote from: "NemZ"
Water Wave is more than capable of getting frags on it's own and switching back and forth with dive will only make dodging the waves much easier and the waves are a far bigger threat.
Quote from: "NemZ"
You can fire 5 more dive missiles, which seem to travel slower and do only 1/3 as much damage as Magnet. Even assuming perfect accuracy Dive can't even kill someone from full health without picking up more ammo, while Magnet assuming only 50% accuracy can get that frag and still have a shot left. There's really no contest here.

Stop looking at things from a statistic perspective man... hence why I said
Quote from: "TrueTenguMan"
"Then lets all have rocket launchers and machine guns since they give you more kills"

Let me repeat myself again but in different words... specific weapons used individually for fragging are not guaranteed to give you kills multiple times or even at all. This is when you need to study the location of stages and combined their weapons to create the ultimate death trap for anyone. Each weapons has it's Pros and Cons which means we have to see what we can do to make them useful, especially in certain stages. SCIENCE!!!!

Lets use my Missile/wave combination one more time... but with Weapon statistics. Your terms :p
=========================================================
MISSILE/WAVE comb.

Dive Missile   UESES:14   DAMAGE:8   Long Range ((at least 60% accuracy)) My opinion
Magnet Missile UESES:   9   DAMAGE:25 Long Range ((at least 50% Accuracy. Differs on distance...)) My opinion

Water Wave   UESES:14   DAMAGE6 (x5) Rapid Fire ((Hinder's movement))
=========================================================

In general any missile can be used with water wave due to it's homing capabilities.This is even more rape in closed areas or even larger ones where the waves spread like wild fire. HOWEVER the most effective one will have to be dive. Now why such a weak weapon? Magnet Missile does 25 DMG per shot, so why is Dive better?

The point is is because of distance. In general, Water wave is only the distraction where as the missile do the work. If I were to use Magnet Missile from a long distance while using Wave, I'll still get an easy kill... thats if unless I'm forced to get closer which is where only wave is my chance of getting a frag because the accuracy of Magnet drops significantly. Lets not also forget we're not standing still or moving up and down, were ALL OVER THE PLACE so using magnet will be wasteful ((I mean 9 shots wasted)) unless further away.

Ok so what about Dive Missile? It will act the same way as as magnet but more guaranteed to hit the person while spreading your waves, even if your closer. Now I'm not saying face-to-face, but at a distance in which you'll know it will hit them. Lets not forget that it has 16 uses, so 8 DMG from dive + 6 DMG from Wave will equal out to 14 DMG per second meaning 70 DMG in total.
And just for the heck of it... 25 DMG from Magnet + 6 from Wave will equal out to 31 DMG per second meaning 155 DMG in total, but remember distance problems with Magnet Missile so your forced to stay back more.

Reason why I prefer Dive with wave is only because of it's better accuracy. The fact that it's slow isn't even the problem here. You need to think how your opponent maneuvers and uses the environment. If he/she is just moving, then consider a frag, if he/she is hiding behind objects, then it's a duel to the death if someone doesn't interfere. And just like X said, its about skill too. We're all experienced with specific weapons... but that's not an excuse to consider other weapons obsolete only because of low damage or pointless abilities ((Shields being the exception unless I'm proven otherwise...)).

Quote from: "Nemz"
Spark shock doesn't stun long enough to make all that much difference unless you just spam it (making it somewhat more attractive in duels), but I'd still rather just use a real weapon.

Don't get me wrong, obviously you observed these weapons enough to see which modes they're more effective on, hell I even agree with Windstorm being better on LMS. Although in regards to Spark Shock on Spark Man stage... Combine this weapon along with either metal blade, top spin, Dust Crusher, or even quick boomerang and you'll see how much aggravating pain your victim will be in. Of course skill and reaction speed still count so I can't agree that Spark Shock is useless only because of either how weak or how short the stun lasts.

TD;l ... hold on let me catch my breath...
...
...
...
ok... MM8BDM Weapons are meant to be unified with others. If they're only degraded to just fragging then you may as well make this a "Call of Duty" game with mega man in it.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Max on October 17, 2010, 07:30:35 PM
Quote from: "Mr. X"
Quote from: "Mr. X"
Please, God, no, not the tier lists!  The last thing we need is pointless arguing on which weapons are on which tiers.

I warned you all!

He warned us all!
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Lord Toadman on October 17, 2010, 07:35:57 PM
lol tiers
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Korby on October 17, 2010, 07:39:41 PM
Quote from: "Mr. X"
Quote from: "Mr. X"
Please, God, no, not the tier lists!  The last thing we need is pointless arguing on which weapons are on which tiers.

I warned you dogs! I warned you about those tiers!
IT KEEPS HAPPENING.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Mr. X on October 17, 2010, 07:41:25 PM
^I was actually going to say that but changed it at the last second.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Max on October 17, 2010, 07:41:49 PM
Alright I don't get that one.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Korby on October 17, 2010, 07:42:41 PM
WHAT.
EDUCATE YOURSELF. (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/sweetbroandhellajeff/)
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Blueiscooltoo on October 17, 2010, 07:42:50 PM
tires don exits
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Max on October 17, 2010, 07:43:18 PM
Badly drawn unfunny MSPaint comics. Oh shit.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Korby on October 17, 2010, 07:44:00 PM
Quote from: "Blueiscooltoo"
tiers don exits
Wait, so tiers put on exits? Is that even possible?
Quote from: "Yellow Devil"
Badly drawn unfunny MSPaint comics. Oh shit.
Purposefully drawn like that. Brotoad loves the comic.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Max on October 17, 2010, 07:45:02 PM
Yeah it might be on purpose but that's not really helping the view count.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Mr. X on October 17, 2010, 07:45:51 PM
Actually, I'd never read the comic, Fupoo kept saying something along those lines Friday night.

EDIT:  I just read it and it made the line instantly unfunny.  I'm with Yellow Devil.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: TrueTenguMan on October 17, 2010, 07:46:19 PM
Quote from: "Yellow Devil"
Yeah it might be on purpose but that's not really helping the view count.
ZING?
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Max on October 17, 2010, 07:46:57 PM
...

Is that another inside joke?
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Korby on October 17, 2010, 07:47:45 PM
SBaHJ is not an inside joke. It is known by thousands.
Things like THREE BLACK DOTS are inside jokes.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Max on October 17, 2010, 07:48:45 PM
But I mean it's inside to those who read the comic, nobody else gets the joke.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Korby on October 17, 2010, 07:51:21 PM
Ohh, I see what you mean.

Anyway, SBaHJ is a selective thing, I guess. I guess the only people who really like it are the ones who read MSPaint Adventures.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: NemZ on October 17, 2010, 09:50:23 PM
Quote from: "TrueTenguMan"
"Then lets all have rocket launchers and machine guns since they give you more kills"

That's not what I'm saying at all.  My overall point isn't to say don't use weapon A because it sucks compared to B, my point is that weapon A should be made better or B weakened a bit while still keeping each unique.  The goal is a diverse and relative balance, not 50 plasma guns firing slightly different shades of blue balls.

Take Spark Shock for example.  It has a nice niche role, but it just doesn't have enough oomph for deathmatch use.  What if it had an area affect on contact, sort of a chain lighting thing, so that shooting it into a crowd caused minor damage/stun to everyone within a close range of the target?  Suddenly it's a much more interesting situational weapon, especially in team games, while still remaining generally weak and not changing at all in dueling value.  That's the kind of thing I'm hoping to come from this discussion, you see?

For another example, compare the Needle Cannon with Yamato Spear.  Needle does slightly more damage and uses less ammo, while Yamato is less random and rips through enemies.  That's a decent trade off for balance, though perhaps something could be done to make the differences more apparent?  I'm not sure.

Now compare Metal Blade with Ice Slasher;  they use the same ammo count at roughly the same firing speed and effective range, they both rip through, yet Ice does only about half as much damage as Metal.  Unless there's a mysterious property or two about these weapons I haven't noticed, that seems like a problem for game balance, don't you think?

As far as combinations go, however, I think you're missing the crucial fact that if you're using one weapon you're not using the other, so trying to add the dps together doesn't work.  The Wave/Dive combo you keep supporting makes no sense to me anyway as they are each best used at different ranges.  To put it another way, if the target is close enough that Wave is a good option switching to Dive just makes you vulnerable, and if they're far enough away that Dive makes sense to use you're not likely to accomplish anything by throwing Waves at them other than to waste ammo.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: PressStart on October 17, 2010, 10:18:00 PM
I just played on some Capture the Flag server and had some guy owning me with head-on Crystal Eye shots. OUCH

NemZ that avatar is awesome.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: TrueTenguMan on October 18, 2010, 02:01:48 AM
Quote from: "NemZ"
Take Spark Shock for example.  It has a nice niche role, but it just doesn't have enough oomph for deathmatch use.  What if it had an area affect on contact, sort of a chain lighting thing, so that shooting it into a crowd caused minor damage/stun to everyone within a close range of the target?  Suddenly it's a much more interesting situational weapon, especially in team games, while still remaining generally weak and not changing at all in dueling value.  That's the kind of thing I'm hoping to come from this discussion, you see?

Alright I agree with this. Though I speculate that this MAY of been the original idea for this weapon, but proved to be too OP in those modes mainly due to that AoE. Though hypothetically they change it that way, it will be placed in hard to reach areas, kinda like gravity hold and Time Stopper... IDK... I'm just a bit skeptical of an ability like that being implemented. But I guess it's all depends on how it works in-game in which it doesn't feel like your pouring glue on them.

Quote from: "NemZ"
For another example, compare the Needle Cannon with Yamato Spear.  Needle does slightly more damage and uses less ammo, while Yamato is less random and rips through enemies.  That's a decent trade off for balance, though perhaps something could be done to make the differences more apparent?  I'm not sure.

Originally Needle Cannon hindered movement in the demo version, however players complained about it's effect which led to it being another recolor buster with better ATK and WP capacity. Yamato should have a delay shot similar to battle rifles in games. 3 shots per click sound good instead of a Gatling Gun of hell?

Quote from: "NemZ"
 The Wave/Dive combo you keep supporting makes no sense to me anyway as they are each best used at different ranges.  To put it another way, if the target is close enough that Wave is a good option switching to Dive just makes you vulnerable, and if they're far enough away that Dive makes sense to use you're not likely to accomplish anything by throwing Waves at them other than to waste ammo.

If you have a flamethrower, you want to not only burn your opponent but have them running for their life in confusion and fear. While they're running, they're only focused on avoiding you at all costs. What if you had something like a pistol in your hand? While your trying to burn him, you can shoot him while getting closer. Scare tactics is the point of this combination. In honesty, if your too far from your target, yes, your wasting ammo and it doesn't make sense to continue doing so; too close and using missiles is pointless. However, as big as a threat water wave is due to it's effect, getting closer with this weapon is cake until you get to the perfect place to shoot; poring salt on a wound really.

Metaphorically speaking, you want to spread enough flames at your target so they're in panic. During that panic they'll get burned, and while thats happening your shooting them till they're out of health while still repeating the tactic. Now just as you said, "if the target is close enough" wave is the perfect close range weapon which makes the combination pointless, although one can't think from just "that" point of view. If your just using the "flame", your obviously going to get shot at yourself from the target's self-defense and there is a 50-50% chance of you dieing from recklessness. Using the missiles is just a more proficient tactic when combining it with Water wave because your causing extra damage until you can get close. Of course this all depends on how the target is moving and retaliating while avoiding you, but regardless, you have the high ground. Maybe I didn't explain it like this or rather I said it differently but this was the point of the combination's purpose: Scare Tactics.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Mr. X on October 18, 2010, 02:04:19 AM
CAN'T YOU SEE THIS TIER LIST IS TEARING US ALL APART?


...I warned you all!
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: TrueTenguMan on October 18, 2010, 02:08:59 AM
Quote from: "Mr. X"
CAN'T YOU SEE THIS TIER LIST IS TEARING US ALL APART?


...I warned you all!

Well unless NemZ comes after me with a Ballade Cracker, then I guess we took your warning for granted...that and I'll be nothing but a talking smart-assed pointy nosed head of a Tengu.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Hallan Parva on October 18, 2010, 05:30:14 PM
SILLY BOWSER
(click to show/hide)
Quote from: "Mr. X"
Quote from: "Mr. X"
Please, God, no, not the tier lists!  The last thing we need is pointless arguing on which weapons are on which tiers.
I warned you all!
HE WARNED US ALL
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: NemZ on October 18, 2010, 07:17:37 PM
So basically what I'm hearing is that you're mostly a bunch of conflict-avoidant pansies who are more concerned with quieting dissent and singing another round of cumbiaya then actually looking at the game we clearly all appreciate with a critical eye and perhaps making it a more balanced, tactically deeper, and MORE FUN product?

Son, I am disappoint.

Needle vs. Yamato:  Actually I'd kind of like to see Yamato made a bit weaker but shoot x6 per click (two staggered waves?), the idea being that it has the same number of bullets per clip as Needle but spits them out in half the time.  This would make Yamato even more clearly a crowd sweeper while Needle is more of a dependable sidearm.

Wave/Dive combo:  I can only really see this working in a team game, with two different players firing the weapons in tandem to take down opponents... though I'd personally still rather they both were launching Dive Missiles down range or 'crossing the streams' with dual Water Waves.

@ PressStart:  thanks.  Nice nick you've got there, btw.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Max on October 18, 2010, 07:18:48 PM
Quote from: "NemZ"
So basically what I'm hearing is that you're mostly a bunch of conflict-avoidant pansies who are more concerned with quieting dissent and singing another round of cumbiaya then actually looking at the game we clearly all appreciate with a critical eye and perhaps making it a more balanced, tactically deeper, and MORE FUN product?

Basically, yes.

I just don't like arguing about it. Good weapons are good and that's all I care about.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Mr. X on October 18, 2010, 07:20:56 PM
Quote from: "NemZ"
So basically what I'm hearing is that you're mostly a bunch of conflict-avoidant pansies who are more concerned with quieting dissent and singing another round of cumbiaya then actually looking at the game we clearly all appreciate with a critical eye and perhaps making it a more balanced, tactically deeper, and MORE FUN product?

Taking it so seriously sucks the fun out of it.  Arguing over stupid crap sucks the fun out of it.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: NemZ on October 18, 2010, 07:22:58 PM
Bah... arguing over stupid crap IS fun.   :lol:
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: CutmanMike on October 18, 2010, 07:23:27 PM
Each weapon works depending on not only the level, but the amount of players in the server. Spark Shock is the best example. In a small brawl with like 4 players I can always make use of it. Stun someone, switch to hard knuckle or something, bam. In big games there's not enough time to do that though. On the reverse side, Hyper Bomb becomes less useful in smaller games because you'll almost never get a moment where the other players don't have their attention on what you're doing.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: NemZ on October 18, 2010, 07:52:58 PM
Can you answer a few more questions CutmanMike?  I'm genuinely curious.

In what situation is Ice Slasher better than Metal Blade?
When is Silver Tomahawk more useful than Gemini Beam?
Why should I ever prefer Super Arm over Dust Crusher?
What can Dive Missile accomplish that Magnet Missile can't do better?
For what reason would I ever choose Gyro Attack over Crystal Eye?
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Max on October 18, 2010, 07:54:58 PM
Quote from: "NemZ"
Can you answer a few more questions CutmanMike?  I'm genuinely curious.

In what situation is Ice Slasher better than Metal Blade?
When is Silver Tomahawk more useful than Gemini Beam?
Why should I ever prefer Super Arm over Dust Crusher?
What can Dive Missile accomplish that Magnet Missile can't do better?
For what reason would I ever choose Gyro Attack over Crystal Eye?

Ice Slasher pierces enemies

Silver Tomahawk goes upwards

Super arm can be thrown into groups and achieve a lot of kills

Dive Missile is better at tracking targets

Gyro Attack is more reliable (it's easier to use) and it has a higher ROF

I'm not Mike but whatever
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: CutmanMike on October 18, 2010, 08:05:16 PM
Quote from: "NemZ"
Can you answer a few more questions CutmanMike?  I'm genuinely curious.

In what situation is Ice Slasher better than Metal Blade?
When is Silver Tomahawk more useful than Gemini Beam?
Why should I ever prefer Super Arm over Dust Crusher?
What can Dive Missile accomplish that Magnet Missile can't do better?
For what reason would I ever choose Gyro Attack over Crystal Eye?

Some levels have Ice Slasher that don't have Metal Blade!
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc

But for those levels where there are both weapons, there are some differences. Ice Slasher is slower and can be harder to dodge in close quarters, while metal blade is better for distances I find. Silver Tomahawk is a bit aids, I'll admit. I've changed it quite drastically in the next version. Not sure why you compared Dust Crusher to Super Arm cause they're quire different. Dive Missile is weaker but has much better homing capabilities and more ammo, and Magnet Missile does more damage, has less ammo etc. I shouldn't have to explain these, just play with em and the differences are fairly obvious.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: NemZ on October 18, 2010, 08:34:50 PM
I do hope this thread isn't being taken as mean-spirited.  Tone is hard to convey via text and sometimes people think I'm being far harsher than I intend to be.  Never doubt that I love this project!

Ice vs. Metal
I hadn't noticed any difference other than ammo consumption, but if you say so.  Wouldn't slower projectiles tend to be easier to dodge at any range though?  Oh, and according to the Wiki both pierce targets, unless that's an error.  I don't recall ever being in a position to watch from the side as either weapon works on a crowd so I don't honestly know.

Dust vs. Guts
I compared them because they both do 50% damage for the same ammo and release a burst of projectiles after impact, but Dust is so much easier to use it isn't even funny.  The only advantage I can see is that Super Arm might be able to hit multiple targets with the large block, but I'm not sure if that's the case or if I'm just getting secondary hits with the debris trail.  Hmm...

Dive vs. Magnet
Actually in most situations I find that dive is easier to avoid because it goes straight for the target which makes cover much easier to use, while magnet can be specifically aimed to get around that cover.  It's usually easier to make Magnet go after the target of your choice, as well (though I've seen both chase after a teammate on rush for some reason).  The ammo/damage ratio is massively skewed in Magnet's favor even accounting for the difference in accuracy, as I explained earlier.

Gyro vs. Crystal
I hadn't noticed gyro fires faster because I'm usually waiting to time the split at the last second in an attempt to hit with both halves.  Fair enough on that one, Yellow Devil.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: CutmanMike on October 18, 2010, 08:39:54 PM
Quote from: "NemZ"
I do hope this thread isn't being taken as mean-spirited.  Tone is hard to convey via text and sometimes people think I'm being far harsher than I intend to be.

Not at all! Well not for me at least :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: TailsMK4 on October 18, 2010, 08:42:47 PM
Quote from: "NemZ"
When is Silver Tomahawk more useful than Gemini Beam?
Why should I ever prefer Super Arm over Dust Crusher?

These questions were intended for CutmanMike, but I think I'll put some info here as well.

I actually find Silver Tomahawk to be much better in close-range combat than Gemini Laser. Tomahawk is a quick weapon that can deal a good amount of damage quickly if you're close enough to the opponent. Gemini Laser is weaker and is better in narrow areas where it can bounce around. In fact, I'd say almost all weapons work better where there is less room to dodge.  :lol:

You can kill someone in 3 hits usually with Silver Tomahawk. I think it's 4-5 for Gemini Laser.

I personally dislike the Dust Crusher weapon aside from the fact it can spread out more garbage when it collides with walls. Super Arm can net you kills further away as long as you have room to use it. Just don't use Super Arm when your opponent is nearby, though. At least you're smarter than the bots.  :cool:
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: Max on October 18, 2010, 08:45:36 PM
Quote from: "NemZ"
Oh, and according to the Wiki both pierce targets, unless that's an error.  I don't recall ever being in a position to watch from the side as either weapon works on a crowd so I don't honestly know.


Go to an empty server, type SUMMON MEGAMAN in the console (twice!) and test it. Ice Slasher pierces and Metal Blade doesn't.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: CutmanMike on October 18, 2010, 09:00:55 PM
? Metal blade pierces
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: NemZ on October 18, 2010, 09:10:55 PM
Quote from: "Yellow Devil"
Go to an empty server, type SUMMON MEGAMAN in the console (twice!) and test it. Ice Slasher pierces and Metal Blade doesn't.

Yeah, metal blade does pierce.  I couldn't find a server that allowed cheats so i tested it in the training hall on a 1p game... and unless the megaman that spawns with that summon command is weak for some reason the damage both Ice and Metal do is much higher than the wiki reports.

@TailsMK4:

they both kill in 3.  The graphic is somewhat bigger for Tomahawk though... depending on if the hitbox is correspondingly larger it might be slightly easier to hit with.

I personally loathe the super arm.  It can be really difficult to find a place where it's even remotely feasible to use, considering limitations of both distance to target and ceiling height.  the outer balcony on Hard man's stage is pretty much the only place I consider equipping it on purpose, and even then I usually get sniped by some dude firing hard knuckles or magnet missiles from the other balcony before really accomplishing anything of note.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: CutmanMike on October 18, 2010, 09:38:38 PM
The piercing damage is inaccurate because it basically does damage for however long you spend INSIDE the projectile. For example if I was running WITH someone's ice slasher projectile in the same direction, it would probably kill me instantly.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: TailsMK4 on October 18, 2010, 09:48:43 PM
Quote from: "NemZ"
@TailsMK4:

they both kill in 3.  The graphic is somewhat bigger for Tomahawk though... depending on if the hitbox is correspondingly larger it might be slightly easier to hit with.

I just remember having to hit an opponent at least 4 times with the Gemini Laser in Cut Man's place to frag someone. I guess it's 3 if the lasers are direct hits.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: a deer on October 18, 2010, 11:29:36 PM
Nearly every weapon in this game is situational to some degree with a few "general purpose" things in between, but I like the fact that some weapons are genuinely better than others, no matter what situation. At the start of most matches, I find myself fighting with others to have control of the "best weapons" on the map and that's what I enjoy about the game. Sure, some are way more OP than others and probably will be nerfed, but considering the 'deathmatch' nature of the game, it's not necessarily a bad thing that two similar weapons appear on a map with one being outright better than the other.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: NemZ on October 19, 2010, 02:40:45 PM
Quote from: "a deer"
Sure, some are way more OP than others and probably will be nerfed, but considering the 'deathmatch' nature of the game, it's not necessarily a bad thing that two similar weapons appear on a map with one being outright better than the other.

I've got to disagree with you, as there's a world of difference between a weapon being the better than another for a particular stage and it just being better regardless.  Besides, even if two similar weapons are fairly balanced I think the game would benefit in most cases from them being generally less similar to promote more diverse tactics.  

For example, even if Ice and Metal are balanced (which I'm still not really convinced of) wouldn't it be better if they offer something more noticeably different than just a pallet change?   Considering Ice Man could kill you in 3 hits in MM1 and fired them one at a time I think it shouldn't really even be trying to be a rapid weapon, but rather a power or a long type.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: CutmanMike on October 19, 2010, 02:56:40 PM
There's rarely a chance you'll get both so I wouldn't worry about it. If you did find both, I guess Metal Blade for longer ranged battles because they go faster than Ice Slasher, but close up use Ice Slasher because the ripping hurts more.
Title: Re: Weapon "Tier List"
Post by: a deer on October 19, 2010, 04:24:07 PM
Quote from: "CutmanMike"
There's rarely a chance you'll get both so I wouldn't worry about it. If you did find both, I guess Metal Blade for longer ranged battles because they go faster than Ice Slasher, but close up use Ice Slasher because the ripping hurts more.

Agreed. Catching someone from behind and firing the Ice Slasher does loads of damage, especially when they are running forward.

I agree with you entirely about the superarm thing