Cutstuff Forum

Mega Man 8-bit Deathmatch => Bugs/Suggestions => MM8BDM Discussion => Rejected => Topic started by: Russel on June 18, 2015, 08:48:06 AM

Title: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Russel on June 18, 2015, 08:48:06 AM

This one is kinda short, so I'll cut right to the chase.

Charge weapons in this game seem to pack quite a bit of pressure behind them because of how much power they can have over your opponents. In order to help alleviate this, my thought was to make charge weapons "release" their charge after a set period of time.

I wanted to put this suggestion in a forum thread because I wanted to know what people thought about it before doing anything with it. Bear in mind that this is by no means trying to make the weapon harder to use, but is instead trying to make it so charge weapons cannot be held forever.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: tsukiyomaru0 on June 18, 2015, 01:07:11 PM

I think this would be a bad idea, because some people prefer to walk around with it charged to unleash it whenever they feel like it, specially with weapons like Atomic Fire or Pharaoh Shot

The only way I can see this happening is through a SVAR, which would allow the host to set this rule on or off.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Messatsu on June 18, 2015, 05:20:49 PM

Really don't like this idea. Holding onto a charge notifies other players of your location fairly easily, so it already has a built in weakness. (With a few exceptions) In addition, charge weapons have a very long refire rate.  There's no reason to nerf weapons that really don't need it.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: LlamaHombre on June 18, 2015, 08:07:36 PM

I don't know if an "auto-release" is the best way to handle overcharge, but I'd say that the concept of weakening a weapon if held for extraneous periods of time might be something to look into.
That said, I can only really imagine this applying smoothly for Atomic Fire and Pharaoh Shot by reverting them to say a mid-charge or something if held for ten seconds or so. Homing Sniper could also be applied to this philosophy by making it fire like 3 snipers instead of 5 (which I think is still a buff from the mid-charge?? I think the mid-charge is 2, but correct me if that's not the case).
I feel something similar could be applied to the buster upgrades with charges, but a number of them may lose their identity in the process. (Laser Buster and Arrow Buster in particular, though Duo Fist might also end up suffering).
The grey area for here comes with weapons like Noise Crush, Magma Bazooka, and Wild Coil. All of them have weaknesses built into their projectiles beyond just the standard noise they give off when moving around (cough sans Pharaoh Shot cough), be it through awkward ways of acquiring said charge or by the lack of effective range given to their shots.

In short, I'm in favor of capping the potential of charge weapons over time, but I don't know if an auto-release is the best method of enforcing said handicap.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: tsukiyomaru0 on June 18, 2015, 08:26:20 PM

Quote from: "LlamaHombre"

In short, I'm in favor of capping the potential of charge weapons over time, but I don't know if an auto-release is the best method of enforcing said handicap.

This just sparked me this idea: what if holding at full charge takes 1 unit of ammo away per second?

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Dr. Freeman on June 18, 2015, 08:30:27 PM

Combined with the ammo of actually firing the weapon, that would burn through your ammo incredibly quick.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: LlamaHombre on June 18, 2015, 09:11:21 PM

By that extent a 1.5x to 2x multiplier on ammo consumption upon release might be a more reasonable punishment from an ammo standpoint.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Knux on June 18, 2015, 09:18:11 PM

Tsuki's idea could work if the ammo doesn't start depleting as soon as the charge is full. The time/ammo can also be adjusted as necessary, as one ammo unit per second sounds excessive, IMO. Making players release their charge early sounds like unnecessary punishment in the case of weapons that require holding down the fire key for it. It would be okay for something like Noise Crush (which doesn't require holding down the fire key) to have the auto release feature however, simply because of how overpowered it is despite the nerf.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Kapus on June 18, 2015, 09:23:07 PM

Quote from: "tsukiyomaru0"

Quote from: "LlamaHombre"

In short, I'm in favor of capping the potential of charge weapons over time, but I don't know if an auto-release is the best method of enforcing said handicap.

This just sparked me this idea: what if holding at full charge takes 1 unit of ammo away per second?

1 unit per second sounds like a bit much for most weapons, but I am intrigued by this concept in general and I think it's worth considering.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: tsukiyomaru0 on June 18, 2015, 11:36:33 PM

Even so, I still think it should be implemented as a SVAR first (default being "OFF" for online, "ON" for campaign), then it should later be made a poll on whether or not this feature should stay.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Orange juice :l on June 19, 2015, 04:08:19 AM

This should probably be handled on a weapon-by-weapon basis to fit both thematically and match the severity of "hold charging" overuse.

Busters: Since they don't use ammo they require a recharge after firing an overcharged projectile, causing up to a 1-ish second inability to fire
Super Arm: Holding the rock gets heavy so move speed gradually slows to a lower bound of 70% or so
Atomic Fire: Too much heat buildup or whatever slowly drains your health and burns off your ammo (enough that you need to be seeking out supplies, making you easier to track down in duel where it's popular but not enough to put you in actual danger of dying of it alone)
Pharaoh Shot: Wisps of energy fly out serving as a tell if you're hiding around a corner. Further overcharging will result in it cycling back to medium charge for short periods
Noise Crush: Holding it too long causes all other in-game sound (not bgm, chat sound, etc) to slowly become quiet and be replaced by a ringing noise- ringing doesn't become very loud but all other sounds become silent
Homing Sniper: Targeting systems recalibrate to become less selective or whatever so your vision gradually starts jittering (would make it harder to move around efficiently but because of the shotgun effect it wouldn't be too hard to hit if you do manage to get close)

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Messatsu on June 19, 2015, 03:49:27 PM

Here's my question.  Why is this even suggested in the first place? Are charge weapons on a whole unbalanced in such a way where this suggestion is necessary? Seems to me that most charge weapons have some sort of drawback (Low RoF, Charge noise, etc) where changes to damage or ammo consumption is a far more practical way to alter the weapons if they are deemed too powerful.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: meGAMEr on June 19, 2015, 05:20:22 PM

When its gonna release, man? I'm tired of waiting. At least can't you show us a screenshot of game?

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Russel on June 19, 2015, 07:05:20 PM

Welcome to Cutstuff, bud!
But...this would be the wrong thread to put this on.

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=9761 (http://cutstuff.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=9761) This is where you wanna go if you wanna talk about release.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Ehibika on June 19, 2015, 08:17:31 PM

Quote from: "Messatsu"

Here's my question.  Why is this even suggested in the first place? Are charge weapons on a whole unbalanced in such a way where this suggestion is necessary? Seems to me that most charge weapons have some sort of drawback (Low RoF, Charge noise, etc) where changes to damage or ammo consumption is a far more practical way to alter the weapons if they are deemed too powerful.

I may be in no position to add whatsoever, but I second this notion, it feels like this would just add a nerf to something that didn't really need a nerf in the first place. I've always felt that most of them gave enough of a warning that a savy player could get around it.

And in the case of noise crush and wild coil, make them less desirable to use as a result.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Russel on June 19, 2015, 08:44:39 PM

Quote from: "Messatsu"

Here's my question.  Why is this even suggested in the first place? Are charge weapons on a whole unbalanced in such a way where this suggestion is necessary? Seems to me that most charge weapons have some sort of drawback (Low RoF, Charge noise, etc) where changes to damage or ammo consumption is a far more practical way to alter the weapons if they are deemed too powerful.

I posted the suggestion because it was a thought I've had for a long time and I felt it was worth discussing.
Not to mention, in the initial post, I stated directly why I thought the idea was worth looking into.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Messatsu on June 19, 2015, 09:11:48 PM

Quote from: "Lego"

Charge weapons in this game seem to pack quite a bit of pressure behind them because of how much power they can have over your opponents. .

I just see this as "high risk, high reward".  That's why I asked my previous question. With a few exceptions, I don't really see charge weapons on a whole being out of balance with the rest of the weapons in the game.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Orange juice :l on June 20, 2015, 04:14:16 AM

It's not implied that charge weapons are overpowered in their own right, but there's currently no downside to always carry a charged shot around before an encounter (besides sound, which is a relatively weak caveat for something so strong as atomic fire or noise crush). These effects would only become serious over significant charge periods, nerfing the overused strategy of "carry charged shots everywhere" instead of charge weapons themselves.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Ehibika on June 20, 2015, 10:04:16 AM

But is the act of carrying a charge shot everywhere that upsetting to gameplay balance? it feels like we are trying to nullify a common strategy for the sake of it being a common strategy.

what would this add to the multiplayer environment? I don't know but I honestly thought that charging your weapon in preparation for a confrontation was a reasonable strategy, as opposed to trying to charge it while the opponent is steadily firing at you. if the goal is to keep charge weapons from becoming the most optimal choice in comparison to every other weapon and encourage the use of other weapons, then I feel we ought to be careful with this. nerf it just a little too hard and they'd be deemed too inefficient compared to non charge weapons.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Orange juice :l on June 20, 2015, 02:47:02 PM

It really isn't as significant to balance as many other issues, but having people running around flashing red and white is a tad dull. Making people mull over whether they should hold a charge and deal with the drawbacks or take a stealthier approach with, say, a melee weapon out (which I suggest you not do against someone always holding onto atomic fire, but I digress) would add a bit of depth to the game, even if it's not much.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: CutmanMike on June 20, 2015, 04:01:28 PM

This hasn't been an issue for 4 full releases of MM8BDM, I'm not sure I understand why it suddenly needs to be changed if game balance isn't the concern. If it is just to make the game more interesting, I'm not sure making any of these changes would radically effect a deathmatch environment (which is the game's core mode) and just prove more annoying than anything.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Bikdark on June 20, 2015, 06:10:08 PM

I'm inclined to believe 90% of the people who are opposed to penalizing players for holding on to a charge too long have never played against Homing Sniper or Atomic Fire.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Meme Man on June 20, 2015, 06:42:35 PM

I feel we need something to punish people charging weapons for so long. People spam so much pharaoh shot in a map where it has it. Maybe ammo consumes itself for charging for too long

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: DoomManFTW on June 20, 2015, 07:04:35 PM

Though I like it the way it is originally,how about making it so after too long you "get tired" and the charging stops for 2 seconds and then you have to charge again,and this takes no ammo unless you release it yourself of course.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: MusashiAA on June 20, 2015, 10:19:56 PM

In FPS games, overcharging usually implies some punishment after some time. There is no punishment for charging weapons in this game because there wasn't any in the original source to begin with.

You'd also have to think of the game mode the weapons were mainly designed for: a multiplayer deathmatch enviroment, where players easily, infinitely and rapidly respawn after death, with everyone having access to every weapon on the map. In such enviroment, charging weapons are not that much of a threat given both the option of countering with the same charging weapon, using a rapid fire, long range weapon to prevent getting caught up with meatshots, or dodging/blocking if possible. There are options to deal against charging weapons in the game mode they were designed for (and arguably in other game modes), so this sounds like a non-issue.

Messatsu already pointed this, but charge weapons also have implied general weaknesses by design: it makes players loud and visible, thus can be easily spotted and avoided/flanked. There is also the charge time it takes to achieve maximum damage, with delays after firing included, so the risk in missing shots is higher, which is also in accordance to the reward of higher damage. Hitbox size and ammo consumption is also a factor that must be taken into account, since the bigger the hitbox, the more likely you'll hit, and the less ammo you consume, the more room you have to miss shots. Given these base weaknesses, let's compare with the weapons that have been mentioned here:

(click to show/hide)

Atomic Fire: Absurdly high damage, really loud charge noise, absurdly long charge time, very little afterfire delay, moderately big hitbox size, high ammo consumption.

Pharaoh Shot: Really high damage, silent charge noise, moderately long charge time, moderately long afterfire delay, moderately big hitbox size, low ammo consumption.

Noise Crush: Really high damage, really loud charge noise, very little charge time, very little afterfire delay, big hitbox size, low ammo consumption.

Homing Sniper: Moderately high to absurdly high damage, really loud charge noise, really long charge time, 6 normal-sized homing hitboxes, high ammo consumption.

Proto Buster: Moderately high damage, moderately loud charge noise that becomes silent, very little charge time, moderately long afterfire delay, moderately big hitbox size, no ammo consumption.

Super Adaptor: Normal damage, really loud charge noise, moderately long charge time, moderately long afterfire delay, 1 normal-sized homing hitbox, no ammo consumption (cannot fire until projectile returns to player).

Laser Buster: Moderately high to absurdly high damage, really loud charge noise, moderately long charge time, moderately long afterfire delay, multiple moderate-sized ripping hitboxes, no ammo consumption.

Arrow Buster: Moderately high to absurdly high damage, really loud charge noise, moderately long charge time, moderately long afterfire delay, 1 moderately-sized hitbox that splits into 6 normal-sized hitboxes, no ammo consumption.

Duo Fist: Really high damage, really loud charge noise, moderately long charge time, moderately long afterfire delay, moderately-sized hitbox, no ammo consumption.

So my comments:

In terms of damage, Atomic Fire is in its own league. Stupid 1HKO power balanced by a stupid long charge time, and a stupid loud charge noise. The closest thing to Atomic Fire in terms of power (god tier 2HKO, potentially 1HKOs) are Homing Sniper (which is highly dependant on homing mechanics, all shots must connect to deal close to 100 damage), Arrow Buster and Laser Buster (again, all shots must connect to pretty much instakill, potentially dealing more damage than Homing Sniper meatshot). Other charge weapons are within the 2HKO range, save for Super Adaptor, which deals a pretty underwhelming amount of damage for being pretty similar to other buster upgrades in other terms.

Charge noise award goes to Pharaoh Shot: a high tier 2HKO weapon, with as much power as Noise Crush and Duo Fist, without the sound penalty, and low consumption ammo. Honestly, this weapon is essentially better than the previously mentioned weapons, and is perhaps only an alternative to Proto Buster, with its fast projectile movement and charge noise that does not loop and is also pretty discrete. The explosion on Pharaoh Shot is just extra icing.

Afterfire delay is a strange one. Nothing beats Atomic Fire in this (despite it being pretty pointless since the charge time is so long), save for Noise Crush. Afterfire delay is supposed to be a gateway that prevents reaching charge state inmediately after firing a charged shot: since Noise Crush charges to max inmediately after the player absorbs one of the small shots (which in turn makes charging this weapon a gimmicky process), this gateway is negated. Couple that with a 2HKO damage and a bigger-than-average hitbox size, and Noise Crush is pretty damn good...if it wasn't so damn noisy.

Charge time, easily Proto Buster is the fastest, if we exclude Noise Crush's inmediate but gimmicky charging method. Couple that with a fast projectile movement speed and a shield, and it's a pretty good deal. Thankfully, Proto Buster deals the 2nd least damage of all the charge weapons, only second to poor Super Adaptor. The rest have a pretty moderate charge time, although it becomes relevant to mention that weapons like Arrow Buster, Laser Buster and Homing Sniper have the same charge time as others, despite being capable of dealing a fuck ton of more damage than them; especially the MM8 buster upgrades, that consume no ammo.

In terms of hitbox sizes, none of them are way too big to always hit, or too small to barely hit at all. Special mention goes to Laser Buster: lots of ripping hitboxes, in a straight line, all of which are bigger than average.

Buster upgrades are the kings of ammo consumption. Duo Fist, and the MM8 buster upgrades are specially good with this, because of their really high to absurdly high damage output coupled with no ammo consumption and moderate afterfire delay makes them more efficient than special weapons. Of the special weapons, Pharaoh Shot and Noise Crush consume very little ammo in comparison to others.

Now, after that analysis, we can tackle on the reason to suggest auto-release on charge weapons: they can pack too much power infinitely, with little consequence. From what I've seen, charge weapons with a lot of power usually have either a really long charge time, or have a really loud charge noise. Since we're focusing on POWER being the main factor here, let's look at the most powerful ones: Atomic Fire, Homing Sniper, and the MM8 buster upgrades.

Atomic Fire is loud and takes a long time to charge up, so enforcing a penalty on overcharge like the ones suggested is pretty bad: auto-fire and ammo drain would imply reducing the ammo consumption on max charge shot...which probably could be the way to tackle this weapon for being "too strong", by increasing the consumption on the max charge shot, and thus being a one time 1HKO that, if missed, needs to be manually filled with ammo, and thus making the penalty of missing even bigger. Another approach at this weapon would be a gimmick that existed in the original games: if the player is hit while charging Atomic Fire, the charge level is affected, either by completely resetting the charge, or by reducing it to mid charge. Other charge weapons such as Pharaoh Shot and Noise Crush could also have this same principle applied to it: either losing or firing their shots on hit.

Homing Sniper is loud, but doesn't take that long to charge. Plus, it fires a barrage of homing missiles that, if they all connect, deal close to 1HKO damage. That is, if they all connect: a meatshot (firing a spread gun at close range) would be deadly, but at long range it can be easily dodged and blocked by walls. Ammo consumption also leaves enough room for another god tier 2HKO barrage. Same case as Atomic Fire here: ammo drain on max charge state would have to be balanced by ammo reduction, which is bad. Auto-fire on Homing Sniper COULD be added in, if reaching max charge state would trigger a very fast overcharge countdown that, when finished, would make the weapon fire 3 missiles instead of 5 on release.

The MM8 buster upgrades, in my opinion, should just have their damage nerfed instead of messing with their charge states: when they hit, they overkill, and Atomic Fire should be the only one weapon doing this.













TL;DR, you could make Atomic Fire, Pharaoh Shot and Noise Crush have their charge states affected when the player is hit, and you could add an overcharge to Homing Sniper that forces the weapon to fire 3 missiles instead of 5. Nerf the damn MM8 buster upgrades, they should not be supposed to be as good or better than Atomic Fire/Homing Sniper.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Bikdark on July 07, 2015, 05:32:21 AM

This topic legit deserves more coverage. Musashi made some extremely good points that have been completely untouched.

Charge weapons stagnate gameplay and remove diversity from games, effectively creating a boring whoever-hits-their-pharaoh-shot-first-when-we-meet in-a-hall-wins metagame. Rather than having high high risk/high reward and requiring good timing, charge weapons reign supreme as artificial pressure and skirmish openers.

Quote from: "CutmanMike"

This hasn't been an issue for 4 full releases of MM8BDM, I'm not sure I understand why it suddenly needs to be changed if game balance isn't the concern.

This "if it doesn't look broken, don't fix it" mentality is one of the things holding this game back. If you're not actively looking for ways to shake up the game and promote new ways to play besides adding 10 new weapons an update, you're not really doing a good job.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Russel on July 07, 2015, 06:09:35 AM

While I'm not 100% fond of Bikdark's attitude, I do agree with his logic in that charge weapons provide an obscene amount of pressure in most non-deathmatch settings.
The problems I have with charge weapons, specifically atomic fire, is that once they reach a full charge, they provide a large amount of pressure to nearby targets due to the punch they pack when they reach said level. And sure they take some time to charge, but the instant they reach full charge, their biggest weakness instantly disappears.
No amount of charge time or flashing lights or loud noises will circumvent this.
In the instance of Atomic Fire, they now have a shot that if they land is a guaranteed OHKO. In the instance of Duo Fist, they have a hard knuckle that fires instantly that can be instantly followed up upon. Pharaoh Shot? ...That's a monster in its own right, there's more wrong with it than just pressure. Wild Coil- okay let's face facts Wild Coil is actually pretty weak I think its spread should get brought back to v2a levels but that's beside the point.
These weapons provide a lot of pressure in environments where life matters and, like I said, no amount of flashing lights or loud noises is going to resolve that.

If you really want to think about this in a deathmatch-centric mentality, which seems to be the case, it would actually be buffing weapons that use charge times as it would promote releasing the weapon on a target early rather than holding onto it.

...And to be frank, I would consider balancing the game specifically around deathmatch and only deathmatch a tad foolish as the most played game mode has never been deathmatch and I don't feel I can respect that as a viable counter-argument based on that prospect.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Messatsu on July 07, 2015, 07:21:08 PM

Quote from: "Lego"

While I'm not 100% fond of Bikdark's attitude, I do agree with his logic in that charge weapons provide an obscene amount of pressure in most non-deathmatch settings.

Don't feed the Bikdark :D

Quote from: "Lego"

The problems I have with charge weapons, specifically atomic fire, is that once they reach a full charge, they provide a large amount of pressure to nearby targets due to the punch they pack when they reach said level. And sure they take some time to charge, but the instant they reach full charge, their biggest weakness instantly disappears.  No amount of charge time or flashing lights or loud noises will circumvent this.  In the instance of Atomic Fire, they now have a shot that if they land is a guaranteed OHKO. In the instance of Duo Fist, they have a hard knuckle that fires instantly that can be instantly followed up upon.

I disagree with this.  Once a weapon reaches full charge the strategy changes based on the weapon they have.  Duo and Atomic Fire both have slow projectiles.  Switch to a fast projectile and backpedal.  If they reach full charge and are right on top of you, then props to them for out maneuvering you.  Hell, Hard Knuckle has a far faster RoF than Duo Fist and is on the same relative level of power, so I'm a bit perplexed why that was used as a comparison point at all.  Even looking at fast shots like Laser Buster, you still have the ability to make them miss by firing at them and jumping/strafing.  If they hit you through all that, they deserve the hit.  

Quote from: "Lego"

Pharaoh Shot? ...That's a monster in its own right, there's more wrong with it than just pressure.

I don't think many folks will argue that Pharaoh needs a few tweaks, but that has less to do with the charging and more to do with the explosion radius.

Quote from: "Lego"

Wild Coil- okay let's face facts Wild Coil is actually pretty weak I think its spread should get brought back to v2a levels but that's beside the point.

Wild Coil was kinda OP in it's 2a level.  With the spread so narrow it became very difficult to dodge in any reasonably closed area.  Obviously it's power was nerfed, but this is something that could be debated in it's own right I suppose.

Quote from: "Lego"

These weapons provide a lot of pressure in environments where life matters and, like I said, no amount of flashing lights or loud noises is going to resolve that.

If you really want to think about this in a deathmatch-centric mentality, which seems to be the case, it would actually be buffing weapons that use charge times as it would promote releasing the weapon on a target early rather than holding onto it.

...And to be frank, I would consider balancing the game specifically around deathmatch and only deathmatch a tad foolish as the most played game mode has never been deathmatch and I don't feel I can respect that as a viable counter-argument based on that prospect.

The pressure argument makes no sense to me. If the opposing player has Duo Fist charged or Hard Knuckle, then the strategy is not really all that different.  Power weapons require a different approach than rapid weapons. Mostly, don't try to block with your face as much.

 The name of the mod literally includes the word DEATHMATCH.  I'm not saying weapons should ONLY be balanced for DM, but they should be VIABLE in DM.  In addition, it's implausible to balance every weapon in the game so that it's equally viable in every mode.  If there are outliers such as Pharaoh Shot's explosive radius, then they need to be addressed.  IMO charge weapons do not fit into that category.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons premature discharge
Post by: Bikdark on July 08, 2015, 03:29:20 AM

Mess, when was the last time you played a vanilla gamemode outside of testing/release parties?

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Messatsu on July 09, 2015, 03:43:35 PM

Charge weapons have been been in the game since v1a.  Your question is irrelevant.  If you disagree with one of my points, please explain why.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: tsukiyomaru0 on July 09, 2015, 08:35:50 PM

Again, one important question: It had never been an issue for MANY releases, so why change it NOW?

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Korby on July 09, 2015, 08:38:35 PM

Just because one did not perceive an issue as such does not make it a nonissue.

The reality of the situation is that certain charge weapons are just too powerful in one way or another and they need to have something attached to them to stop that.
The main question is what.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Orange juice :l on July 09, 2015, 09:49:12 PM

Metagames (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Metagame)
don't (http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/overused.281/)
change (http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/sf4/)
over (http://hearthstoneplayers.com/overview-hearthstone-metagame/)
time (http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSBM_tier_lists_(NTSC))

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: LlamaHombre on July 09, 2015, 10:19:12 PM

Wrote these for the dev chat to try and explain my own personal reasoning as to why a change like this would be beneficial to the game as a whole. Haven't modified them at all, so some stuff might seem out of context, but my points stand either way.

In regards to why I feel it wouldn't damage Deathmatch balance, and would help a majority of the supported modes in the game:

(click to show/hide)

I'm personally going to be writing this out under the assumption that the subject here is not "auto-releasing" a given charge, but rather attaching a disadvantage to holding onto a charge.
While this disadvantage would likely have to vary from weapon to weapon, a simple one that could be applied as an example would be a .75x damage modifier or a larger ammo consumption upon releasing the charge beyond a given (telegraphed) time interval.
I'd like to provide reasoning as to why I think said change wouldn't damage Deathmatch balance or flow beyond punishing sitting around in an area and hitting people as they pass.
An active player may choose to use charged weapons as an initiator to any kind of conflict, be it close quarters or fishing for a lucky hit from far off. While the number of people in a given deathmatch can vary based on server popularity or time of day, I'd like to go on the general assumption that facing at least 4 other opponents is likely.
With this in regard, one may want to charge on hand because they know that by the time they encounter someone else, their charge will be ready to fire at an opponent. A fight breaks out between the player and an opponent, maybe two. The player releases his charged weapon. Regardless of whether he hits an opponent or not, the player is likely to either charge up again and try for more pure damage or AOE damage, or switch to another weapon to finish off his opponent.
The fight finishes, and regardless of the outcome, the player intends on using charger weapons because he enjoys that type of weapon.
A similar loop continues in which the player uses the weapon, and by the time he's able to charge it up, he's presented with another confrontation.
The cycle continues on and on until the game ends, and the player may either win or lose depending on his time-efficiency and ability to participate in firefights.
In deathmatch, better results tend to come out of continued engagement with other players. This continued engagement encourages a player using a charge weapon to find a victim before they waste time holding onto a charge that they could've been using to get kills with a different style of weapon.
Applying said disadvantage to an overcharge may teach a player to learn better deathmatch skills by either encouraging the continuous use of charge shots such that minimal time is wasted, or to encourage a more varied weapon selection to better capitalize on any given map's weapon selection.
Either way, my point is this. Adding a disadvantage to charge weapons may come off initially as an unnecessary nerf to something that isn't inherently flawed, but it will ultimately encourage more cutthroat, intense games of the game's title mode.
 
Base LMS tends to be similar in that one's continued interaction with other opponents can be encouraged by providing the disadvantage, and it would ultimately see a decline in foolish plans done in basic LMS.
As it's every man for themselves, games can either be really cutthroat or really campy and stally. A more interactive, offensive shift in gameplay would be seen by the implementation of said disadvantage, as matches wouldn't simply devolve to traversing around large battlefields trying to find some guy sitting in a single spot with a fully charged weapon at the go.
It rewards the player searching by removing pressure from the situation. The seeker is able to approach more freely knowing that even if he does take the hit, there's a good chance that the hider will already be under some punishment for having sat around in a room waiting for people to move through. The hider is given a slight disadvantage from normal situations, and is discouraged from his tactics in favor of a more active approach to the seeker.
One might think, "why wouldn't the hider just dump his charge each time it deteriorated, then?" in which I'd respond that more likely than not, there's a number of indirect disadvantages to doing so.
For starters, they'd lose out on a lot of ammo just by releasing fully charged shots every so often at nothing. These released shots may also incriminate them by providing some sort of noise upon fire or explosion.
Ammo is critical in LMS modes, and players would still want to take their shot even if it's at a disadvantage. So of course, they'll probably use it like they normally would and that's ok.
Where the disadvantage gives leeway to is the opposing player, who isn't as heavily suppressed by an individual's decision to plant their feet in an area and block them out of an area.
In fact, it may even promote careful usage of charge shots such that an attacker can approach a defender with a stronger shot that had better timing and purpose put into it than that of the defender.
 
Team DM and Team LMS add the same problems to their base game modes, and it's a simpler problem than you may think.
There's less people to shoot at.
Holding a charge is even more heavily promoted out of moments where there'll be nothing to shoot at. It's also promoted by sheer numbers of any given squad, in which any given group of individuals is unlikely to be able to stand a chance against powerful (often heavy AoE) tools of destruction.
Disadvantage provides similar effects as it had in past examples: Promotes better time-management, promotes more opportunistic play, reduces overwhelming pressure provided by purely defensive play.
Other weapons are provided a chance to shine out as initiators or power sources, and even smarter usage of charge weapons is promoted.
 
My problems with charge weapons in duel are the exact problems I find with them in LMS.
 
As an aside, I find it slightly weird that defensive play through charge weapons is so heavily punishable in Deathmatch while it's such an overbearing force in just about every other supported mode this game has.
I feel the overcharge disadvantage is a great start to bring weapon balance closer to each other between modes. Reread above for my reasoning as to why.

In response to being questioned as to what makes weapons like Atomic Fire worthy of change to begin with:

(click to show/hide)

I'd say there's a number of reasons why a weapon like atomic fire is a problem.
Let's just list off characteristics of the weapon type real quick.
High charge damage, average-to-high ammo consumption, medium-to-slow charge time (in relation to I guess Super Arm), AoE coverage, charge noise of some fashion.
Let's talk about each of these one by one.
 
High damage values allow for easier kills than tends to be required with a number of other weapons in the core. Lobbing a charge shot at an opponent will more likely than not either kill them outright or force them to retreat in fear of a follow-up attack from any weapon (because if they don't, chances are they're going to die from a health disadvantage). In the case of Atomic Fire, Homing Sniper, MM8 upgrades, etc., these weapons are extremely potent because they don't give the opponent a lot of room to escape after being hit on the sole factor that more often than not they OHKO the opponent or leave the opponent mostly dead with minimal effort needed to secure the remaining kill. A player with a charge provokes the opponent to either switch to a charge weapon to have a standing chance against the firepower of the player, or be forced to approach the player with weapons that may not inherently do enough damage from far enough of a range to secure their safety against high (sometimes AoE) burst damage. Their damaging potential is by far their biggest strength, both because they just do a lot of damage, and provide pressure on the opponent. It's extremely difficult to handle direct confrontation with a person using a charge weapon without a charge of your own. Note that while there are a few weapons that I would consider to be outliers to this dilemma (Hard Knuckle provides clean quick burst with little consequence, Magnet Missile allows for heavy spacing with notable projectile speed and punishes camping with a charge, etc). I would find that a vast majority of weapons in the core are ill-equipped to handle charge weapons in a given neutral game.
 
Ammo consumption is a drawback, sure. In LMS modes, you get a couple of good hits with the higher up charge weapons, and a few more with the weapons lower in the hierarchy. Fact of the matter is, every kill in LMS means that a player has been removed from play. As this number dwindles, the effectiveness and efficiency of charge weapons increase, and pressure is intensified on an attacker trying to approach an opponent with a charge. For the sake of not repeating myself, please go read my pastebin for an examination of a typical LMS endgame with charge weapons in play. In smaller deathmatches, however, ammo is abundant and designed around the distribution of typically 8-12 weapons and numerous other players. The lack of players needing to take in ammo allows for a person who wants to use say Atomic Fire to be able to just refill after having taken a shot. He only needs a third of the bar, and a small weapon energy refills about a fourth if memory serves me right. Add this in conjunction to how close smaller weapon capsules tend to be with each other, and there's rarely a case in which Atomic Fire should ever be empty in these situations.
 
A person charging a shot has weaknesses while he is charging. He cannot fire back at an opponent without risking losing his charge and having to start anew. However, this timeframe means nothing once the charge is complete, as the user reaps the full benefits of having the charge at minimal cost for having charged to begin with. In fact, if a player isn't discovered while they're charging, then there is no downside. They take no damage, and next time they're seen by an opponent, they have a weapon of destruction at the ready. Homing Sniper is a living sin in this regard. Regardless of whether a player using that weapon is discovered during their charge time, it's so inhumanely quick that no combination of weapons in the core is able to kill them in the time it takes to charge (sans one shots or ripper shenanigans). They may be down some life, sure, but they're also carrying a charge that will tear through nearly all of your health bar. It's not worth pursuing a player with a charge at that point because if you miss and they hit, you're as good as dead despite having found them charging. You'll be missing enough health that a basic attack is enough to finish you off. Then they just charge again. This problem persists throughout Atomic Fire, too. While the charge time is more easily punishable, they still have instant death at the go once that charge completes. If you fail to kill them, and they hit you, you die and they're able to charge up again such that it'll be done by the time you have the weapons to fight said individual again.
 
Charge weapons tend to have some kind of area of effect secondary effect that makes the weapons difficult to dodge. Atomic Fire, Duo Fist, Pharaoh Shot, Noise Crush, Super Arm all have relatively large projectiles that serve to fill up hallways easily. They all do lots of damage, and tend to have relatively quick projectile speed. Homing Sniper, Wild Coil, Arrow Buster all have spread built into their design such that it's not necessary to hit every projectile to reap the benefits of having charged to begin with. Landing every hit will all but guarantee that your next attack will kill the opponent, but the chip damage is good enough and forces the opponent to flee out of fear of being chipped down again, if not killed outright. At this point, the charger is given a free cooldown like mentioned previously. They're able to charge in the lack of opposition, and are often far enough from an opponent such that if the opponent decides to shrug off the chip damage and pursue, they will be able to either backpedal (backstrafe, whatever, just move away) from the opponent and continue to apply spread damage or move closer and finish the job. The Area of Effect design around a number of these weapons make them nearly impossible to approach without either being struck by some stupid huge projectile, or succumbing to constant harass or chip damage.
 
Charge noise is every bit a weakness as it is a strength. Above all else, it notifies opponents of your position. While this is a deadly weakness if you're low on health or if there's a lot of opposition ready to deal with you, it gains more and more of a psychological edge over opponents as their numbers dwindle. The noise may be related to the growling of an animal, longing to protect his property from a fellow predator. It signals the user's position, but also signals that they may have total dominion over a part of a map. Charge weapons are already inherently strong engagement weapons, as well as "stand-your-ground" weapons, and the sheer knowledge of an opponent in an area generates pressure. If you approach and try to take map control from him, you have to deal directly with that charged shot. Fail, and you give him a frag and you allow him to keep control over that part of the map, its resources, and any weapons contained there. You can stop it, but if you don't, then it snowballs out of physical control. You can potentially poke at him from far off in hopes of pushing him out, but ultimately the lack of long range weapons will mean that at most you're doing chip damage to a player who can run around an area for health and punish you heavily for attempting to pursue.

Feel free to respond or point out any corrections/opinions you may have to any of this, though I know some of you have already.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Promestein on July 09, 2015, 11:21:05 PM

While we're at it, we need to do something about some of these other simply ridiculous weapons. Rolling Cutter, Super Arm, Thunder Beam, Hard Knuckle, Top Spin, Shadow Blade, Ring Boomerang, Gravity Hold, Knight Crusher, Slash Claw, Flame Sword, Flash Bomb, Astro Crush, Spread Drill, Wave Burner, and Lightning Bolt - all of them need to be nerfed because they're effective in certain situations.

Nah, I'm just kidding. But seriously, we need to make charge weapons more trouble than they're worth, so nobody will bother to use them.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Russel on July 09, 2015, 11:28:21 PM

Quote from: "Promestein"

Nah, I'm just kidding. But seriously, we need to make charge weapons more trouble than they're worth, so nobody will bother to use them.

This wasn't the point of the suggested change or the topic at hand. The goal of the suggested change was to provide a hopefully non-invasive way to add more strategy to using charge weapons, not make them useless. There's a very broad difference between the two concepts and I want to make it clear the goal is not to gut these weapons but instead facilitate more strategic play with such weapons.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: Promestein on July 09, 2015, 11:54:52 PM

As it is, they're strong with serious drawbacks. Reducing them to 75% power if overcharged or making them consume more ammo, for instance, would just make people gravitate to other weapons that attain better results with less effort. Like some of the ones I listed off.

Why use Atomic Fire when I have to be careful not to overcharge it on top of its other drawbacks, when I could just throw a Rolling Cutter or two and take them out all the same? Granted, I barely use Atomic Fire anyways as it is, but I definitely won't use it if I can't even prep it before a battle.


I mean, if you guys can nerf charge weapons just enough to where they aren't overlooked in favor of other weapons, fine. But I just think people will disregard charge weapons altogether with such extra limitations on them.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: tsukiyomaru0 on July 10, 2015, 12:26:27 AM

Then again, THIS is what I propose:

Quote from: "tsukiyomaru0"

The only way I can see this happening is through a SVAR, which would allow the host to set this rule on or off.

That way it won't be a forced implementation and will give people time to see whether it is worth or not the nerf. Then, from there, the version that follows should have the implementation forced.

Title: Re: [Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release
Post by: JaxOf7 on July 17, 2015, 02:30:09 PM

Just dropping in to take the side of putting more depth in our charge mechanics.
OJ and co. already said it, but yeah, "Don't see people around? Better start charging" is just too optimal with very little reason not to do so, which in turn subtracts from the depth/choice/fun of what you're doing/planning when you're looking for people or opening fights.