Messages

1

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3dh

« on: May 31, 2016, 04:41:00 PM »

http://www.best-ever.org/download?file= ... s-v3dh.pk3

See first post for changelog with new changes italicized. Various bug fixes and small balance change made.

2

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3d

« on: May 26, 2016, 10:17:34 PM »

Wait's over

http://www.best-ever.org/download?file=justifiedclasses-v3d.pk3

Changelog:

(click to show/hide)

New Health Pickup System:
Upon picking up a large or small health capsule, you gain HP at a slower rate (MM4 Speed). This is to balance classes in duel and deathmatch that can grab health that would usually be difficult to reach with ease and drag out games. Once a health capsule is healing, another health capsule cannot be picked up until the healing effect of the previous health pick up has been completed. sv_disallowclassichp and sv_allowclassichp disables and enables this respectively.
*Rock: Class Added
– Roll armor, Base movement speed
Mainfire – Rock Kick: Short range melee with average fire rate (4 hit KO) [with ball: hold to charge power and release to kick the ball. Before bouncing on the wall, the shot can be curved slightly using the mouse. Power decreases when charged for too long (~2 hit KO if fully charged)]
Altfire – Slide Tackle: Grounded dash dealing ripper damage (~6 hit KO) [with ball: Jump off of ball. This removes the ball upon usage]
Item – Roccer Ball: Summons Roccer Ball at Rock’s feet.
Cutman:
Altfire – Giga Cutter damage more consistent (~2 hit KO).
Iceman:
Mainfire – Ice Slasher damage decreased (~4 hit to ~5 hit KO).
Altfire – Icicle now completely freezes enemies on direct impact and partially freezes on AoE.
Fireman:
Mainfire – Fire Shield now transparent and damage decreased. Fire Storm damage increased (~8 hit to ~6 hit KO).
Bombman:
– Armor increased from Semi-weak armor to Base armor
Altfire – Giga Bomb explosion hitbox increased.
Gutsman:
– Jump sprites added
Altfire – Guts Quake can now be held to charge the Guts Dig (MMPU). The dig can only go down ledges (not up) and gives Gutsman a small speed boost in the ground. Tiny rocks fly from where you dig damaging enemies above. Upon rising to the surface Gutsman automatically readies a Super Arm.
Enker:
Mainfire – Uncharged Mirror Buster can now bounce off of walls once. Uncharged Mirror Buster shots can be absorbed by the Altfire to grant Enker an easy charge. The charged Mirror Buster now has AoE damage to make it easier to land.
Bubbleman:
Mainfire – New water trail sprites added
Altfire – Bubble Lead can now bounce off walls and acts with gravity and fire rate decreased.
Heatman:
Altfire – Heat Tackle takes longer to charge.
Woodman:
– Movement speed decreased
Mainfire – Leaf Shield now releases Leaf Rain if the shield is up for a set duration. Leaf rain now has AoE damage on the ground and spawns less leaves.
Altfire – Removed.
Quickman:
Altfire – Quick Dash speed decreases the lower Quickman’s health is.
Quint:
Altfire – Sakugarne Debris damage increased and now gives Quint repulsion.
Topman:
– Mainfire and Altfire swapped
Altfire – Top Spin now gives repulsion and has a brief wind up. Can be reactivated to dash early (Mainfire cancels Top Spin entirely).
Sparkman:
Mainfire – Uncharged Spark Shock fire rate decreased and damage increased (11 hit to 9 hit KO). Charged Spark Shock damage increased (~3 hit KO).
Magnetman:
Altifre – Magnet Pull now gives repulsion.
Needleman:
Mainfire – Needle Cannon ammo regen decreased.
Altfire – Needle Screwdriver damage more consistent (~2 hit KO).
Snakeman:
– Jump sprites added
Altfire – Now lunges you forwards before climbing
Geminiman:
– Gemini Buster is now always Mainfire and Gemini Laser is now always Altfire
Altfire – Gemini Laser damage increased (~5 hit KO to ~4 hit KO).
Item – Gemini Clone is now destructible and runs on ammo.
MegaWaterS:
Altfire – Water Spray pushing increased and Water Spray with shield activated now pushes.
BusterRodG:
Mainfire – Rod stops you briefly and can be held to extend further. Rod can now deflect and block projectiles.
Item – Illusions reworked. Now leaves a stationary decoy upon usage and cloaks BusterRodG invisible for a short duration. Upon the end of BusterRodG’s invisibility the decoy fires fake clones which behave identical to the old item.
Punk:
– Jump sprites added
Pharaohman:
– Movement speed decreased. Added a mechanic which thrusts Pharaohman a short distance if forward, strafeleft, straferight or backward keys are double tapped. Jump sprites added
Ringman:
Altfire – Added Giga Rings. Throws six large rings in all directions which bounce off walls and return to Ringman (~2-3 hit KO). Consumes half the ammobar.
Dustman:
– Jump sprites added
Altfire – Dust Vacuum now gives repulsion and ammo has delayed regen. Suction range increased.
Skullman:
Altfire – Skull Barrier fires skulls in all directions upon release which repel enemies back.
Diveman:
– Armor lowered from Semi-strong armor to Base armor and movement speed increased
Mainfire (Weapon 1) – Dive Missile damage increased (10 hit KO to 7 hit KO).
Altfire – Dive Charge ammo decreased.
Mainfire (Weapon 2) – Added Dive Torpedo. Fires a Dive torpedo that travels a short distance and explodes upon hitting a surface or reaching max range (~4 hit KO). Consumes alternate ammobar.
Drillman:
– Jump sprites added
Toadman:
Mainfire – Rain Flush is now chargeable. Fires splashing rain droplets in all directions if uncharged or cancelled.
Altfire – Toad Leap now deals splash damage upon hitting the ground. The lower the bounce, the smaller the AoE and lower the damage. The higher the bounce, the bigger the AoE and higher the damage.
Gravityman:
– Armor lowered from Base armor to Semi-weak armor
Gyroman:
– Armor lowered from Semi-weak armor to Weak armor
Crystalman:
– Jump sprites added.
Altfire – Crystal Eye is now chargeable. Charge Crystal Eye to form a crystal in front to block projectiles. When fully charged fires a burst of small crystals in all directions if not fully charged fires Crystal Eye akin to past versions.
Napalmman:
Mainfire – Napalm Missile can now be held to bounce on the ground (instead of exploding on impact).
Stoneman:
– Mainfire and Altfire swapped
Waveman:
Altfire – Water Wave now stuns and knocks enemies up. Has higher ammo consumption and lower fire rate.
Starman:
– Star Crash is now Altfire. Jump sprites added
Mainfire – Added Star Light. Fires three lasers in a row which pierce through enemies.
Altfire – Star Crash Shot has higher ammo consumption.
Darkman3:
– Jump height increased
Mainfire – Dark Bullets hitbox size increased and projectile speed increased.
Darkman4:
– Armor lowered from Semi-strong armor to Duo armor. Dark Shields passive damage and hitbox decreased.
Mainfire – Dark Shot fire rate decreased.
Altfire – Dark Shield Shot now gives Darkman4 a speed buff and fire rate buff until all shields return back to Darkman4.
Mercury:
– Armor lowered from Semi-weak armor to Weak armor
Mainfire – Grab Buster health drain increased (5 HP to 8 HP).
Venus:
Altfire – Bubble Mine now stops Venus in place briefly upon usage.
Mars:
– Ammobars seperated for Machine Gun and Photon Missle.
Item – Mines now have brief delay before refilling after exploding and now thrusts Mars forward upon planting.
Jupiter:
Mainfire – Electric Shotgun no longer runs on ammo.
Altfire – Electric Shock now fires forward a limited distance when not flying. Increased hitbox on downwards Electric shock and decreased damage.
Saturn:
Altfire – Saturn Slide damage decreased (4 hit to 5 hit KO).
Neptune:
Mainfire – Salt Water now splashes when it makes contact with enemies (instead of disappearing).
Knightman:
Mainfire – Knight Crush hitbox size increased.
Altfire – Knight Shield is now chargeable. Once fully charged Knightman leaps forwards and stuns enemies upon landing.
Centaurman:
Mainfire – Centaur Buster damage decreased (5 hit to 6 hit KO).
Windman:
Mainfire – Wind Gyros damage increased (7 hit to 6 hit KO).
Altfire – Wind fan Increased suction strength.
Flameman:
Mainfire – Flame Blast Shot now runs on ammo and summons flames upon making contact with the ground.
Altfire – Flame Blast Pillars damage decreased.
Blizzardman:
– Armor increased from Base armor to Semi-strong armor and can now dash.
Mainfire – Blizzard Attack can now be canceled early to fire the number of snowflakes summoned without homing.
Tomahawkman:
– Armor lowered from Base to Semi-weak armor. Added a mechanic which thrusts Tomahawkman a short distance if forward, strafeleft, straferight or backward keys are double tapped.
Mainfire – Silver Tomahawk hitbox size increased.
Altfire – Tomahawk Feathers speed lowered and damage decreased. Now has an added melee. Ammo consumption increased and fire rate lowered.
Yamatoman:
– Mainfire uncharged and charged versions seperated into Mainfire and Altfire respectively.
Burstman:
Mainfire – Danger Wrap is now chargeable. Once fully charged Danger Wrap encases enemies in a bubble with rises them into the air. Uncharged Danger Wrap now ascends upward.
Cloudman:
Mainfire – Thunder Bolt now has AoE upon making contact and damage decreased (4 hit to ~5 hit KO).
Item – Cloudman Flight can now be toggled without full ammo and gives Cloudman increased movement speed.
Junkman:
Mainfire – Junk Shot no longer runs on ammo and damage decreased (~5 hit to ~6 hit KO). Altfire – Junk Block now runs on main ammo bar instead of alternate.
Slashman:
– Jump sprites and somersault sprites added
Mainfire – Slash Claw is now chargeable. Once fully charged Slashman performs Slash Dash.
Item – Goo Egg reworked. Slashman now jumps up and spreads multiple eggs below. Goo Egg hitbox size increased.
Springman:
– Mainfire and Altfire swapped
Mainfire – Spring Punch no longer runs on ammo and now stops Springman briefly where he can hold fire to extend Spring Punch further.
Shademan:
Altfire – Shade Glare hitbox and projectile speed increased. Shade Swoop now lifts enemies up if hit directly.
Clownman:
Mainfire – Thunder Claw now blocks projectiles.
Aquaman:
Mainfire – Water Balloon no longer charges Water Cannon.
Altfire – Water Column now charges Water Cannon. Water Column now slowly carries enemies who are caught in it.
Swordman:
Altfire – Stone Statue now releases an extra three pieces that damage enemies. Ammo regen decreased.
Item – Absorbs projectiles on hit (similar to Saturn’s Altfire) to fill up an ammobar. Once the ammobar is full, Swordman can perform Fire Column which deflects projectiles and draws in all nearby enemies and damages them over time.
Searchman:
– Search Cutter is now Mainfire
Mainfire – Search Cutter damage decreased and maximum number of bounces decreased and runs on ammo.
Altfire – Deadly Storm can now be cancelled early to fire a Missile Barrage. Deadly Storm hitbox and damage increased.
Item – Added Bushes. Bushes have HP and spawn explosive decoys if a bush is destroyed that does not have Searchman inside. Able spawn up to three bushes. While in the bush gain invisibility, Altfire changes to Homing Sniper. Homing Sniper damage increased and homing increased. Homing Sniper no longer destroys when hitting the ground.
Astroman:
Altfire – Astro Crush hitbox size increased.
Item – Copy Vision now follows cursor instead of only firing forward.
Tenguman:
Mainfire – Tengu Blade now changes to Tornado Hold when flying. When flying if near an airborne enemy Tenguman performs Tengu Smash.
Altfire – Tornado Hold removed, now activates flying and if flying performs Tengu Dive.
Item – Removed.
Pirateman:
Mainfire – Remote Mine hitbox size increased.
Dynamoman:
Altfire – Lightning Bolt damage decreased and spread out less when pinpointing the ground.
Magicman:
– Movement speed increased
Altfire – Magic Card hitbox size increased.
Burnerman:
– Can dash with double tapping forward
Mainfire – Wave Burner damage increased and Burner Grenade no longer has a delay upon firing.

Credit to Z-dagger for dustman and drillman jump sprites.

3

Anything Goes / Re: Class Based Modification vs. Justified Classes

« on: September 07, 2014, 02:27:03 AM »

If you like Class Based Modification better than Justified Classes with no reasoning but "I just think it feels better" or "JC is extremely bland" than I have absolutely nothing to follow up with since there is no changing such ignorant mindsets.

As I said, generally this topic are people's opinions on what class they like better. Except the end of this calling it "ignorant mindsets" clearly states that people who prefer CBM to Justified are ignorant and wrong, which is outright ridiculous. You are saying that this topic is Musashi's goal to make himself feel better about CBM when it's incredibly open, but Clayton here is jumping in saying that if you think CBM is better that you have an "ignorant mindset" and thus are wrong and there's nothing else to say.

Which is absolutely ridiculous and not the way anyone should act.

You are again like before reading my post completely wrong, I never said that thinking Class Based Modification is better than Justified Classes is ignorant and wrong. What I said was that giving no explanation or evidence behind such a claim is ignorant and wrong.

If you like Class Based Modification more than Justified Classes that is completely fine and your opinion.

4

Anything Goes / Re: Class Based Modification vs. Justified Classes

« on: September 07, 2014, 02:16:03 AM »

Thanks Shmeckie, you just about summed it up. This topic is indeed useless and is causing nothing but argumentative and abrasive discussion. I will no longer be posting on these matters as it is useless since people are either not bringing useful statements with properly thought out evidence to the discussion or it is just becoming a drowned out bickering over what classes mod the individual thinks is better. If you like Class Based Modification better than Justified Classes with no reasoning but "I just think it feels better" or "JC is extremely bland" than I have absolutely nothing to follow up with since there is no changing such ignorant mindsets.

If you think there are specific problems with Justified Classes feel free to post on the topic that was made for such, we will gladly take all suggestions into consideration to try to improve the Justified Classes mod as a whole.

5

Anything Goes / Re: Yeah I mean both class mods are ok. Unlike those fuckin

« on: September 07, 2014, 01:13:37 AM »

CBM's classes feel immediately satisfying to play and stay true to vanilla's rapid pace (provided you live long enough to utilize them)
literally looking through every single class in both mods, and I'm finding equally as many "i kill u no counterplay huehuehue" classes in each.

Any examples to name for Justified? It would be much appreciated.

stop making shit up.
while JC's classes provide a slower, more tactical and well thought-out game (most of the time).
When every class has 2 megabuster variants, you bet your ass you have a more tactical game.

Any classes in particular that share this quality? As far as I know there isn't one class in the Justified Classes mod that have 2 Mega Buster variants in any of their weapons.


For the absolute worst reason possible.

I'd also like to point out when a dev maniacally defends their game and bashes the competition, you need to rethink who you support.

First of all, Justified is simply a little mod out of a mod of doom, I wouldn't care less about what people think in the end. However I will debunk any kind of false statements or vague claims that people have about Justified Classes. If the opposing party does not wish to do the same that's up to them.

(click to show/hide)

Yeah I mean both class mods are ok. Unlike those fuckin Jews

I believe Jewish people have nothing to do with this conversation.

6

Anything Goes / Re: Class Based Modification vs. Justified Classes

« on: September 07, 2014, 12:49:43 AM »

Now now, boys.



I'm left here to imply that JC defines classes without little to no disadvantages or limitations at all, for the sake of making all classes "usable in all scenarios".

I don't agree with this at all. To give one example: a melee-centered, close range class shouldn't be given a projectile attack because of its limitations being made more evident in a long range fight or when fighting against a class with a long range weapon. Instead, it should be given the ability to cut down the range or resist the long range fight or momentarily dodge or block attacks. Eliminating the disadvantages to what you would call a class eliminates the essence of classes being role-centered (<<<<THIS IS A FACT), and instead gives a class two or three wildly different abilities, which just makes a class imbalanced or undefinable, and defeats the purpose of letting players fill in the limitations with their own wit, or to mantain classes within the boundaries of its role.

I agree with you on this point, because there are classes in Justified that fight like this. For example, Slashman where he has no projectile attacks but has lots of mobility options to make up for it. However Class Based Modification fails to accomplish this goal effectively mostly due to the extreme gimmicks players are forced to adhere to. For example, Needleman has no way of getting close to another player since his mobility is terrible and does not have enough armour to shrug off direct hits. His abilities and attacks are only useful at point blank range and terrible at even mid range combat. Let's not forget that Class Based Modification's version doesn't even properly portray Needleman but instead more so portrays TF2 Heavy.

This is what CBM struggles with, that's truth.

So now we have a more clear differentiation between both mods: CBM sees role limitations as a tolerable (may I add sometimes purposeful) factor, while JC...doesn't?

Justified Classes does take roles into consideration but not in a way that it would hinder the classes' ability to perform in situations.

But JC does hinder a class' potentiality in some cases because of the boss form commandment. To give one example, JC Hardman. Another, JC Napalmman. Another one, JC Crashman. These classes give up control or abilities for the sake of source fidelity, which hinders the experience and difficults balance.

"These classes give up control or abilities for the sake of source fidelity, which hinders the experience and difficult balance." How so? Any possible scenarios or examples that can be given to demonstrate this point?

EDIT: My input here is that this attempt at ironing the limitations, as if they were a bad thing, just results in giving players a less fluctuating online experience, in the sense of a lack of difficulty when facing other players and the abilities to overcome it with strategy. I guess I would call this "handholding"?

Your perspective on my idea is misconceived, I am simply saying that classes that aren't given the compulsory tools or don't have a good balance in abilities to make a role or gimmick work then there are many instances where classes are put in an unfair situation. What Justified Classes is doing is not "handholding" but giving each class a mostly if not equal opportunity to shine in their own individual way. Putting the class in an unfair situation will not make a challenge but instead make a frustrating experience for the player. Especially when one player is putting out double the effort using a disadvantaged class against someone using a class that exploits the map or counters the user's class.

CBM classes weren't designed to be or to have hard counters by design in most cases. The cases where it does happen, it's either on purpose or a straight up design flaw: we will not know this for sure until it is released to the public. When applied online and massively, what the devteam may consider as balanced sometimes does not stand, and this is why testing is not just a closed door occurance: when people play an online game, this is considered as mass testing that may or may not end up opening the road to new changes.

To be blunt, I think you're overreacting to general disadvantage situations because of very specific scenarios in which limitations are made more obvious. I look at these kind of "unfair matchups" with the solution of class change: you are not fixated into using only one class...not to say that this serves as an excuse for actual imbalance issues, and generally the CBM devteam doesn't try to resort to this kind of arguments. I think it's unfair to say CBM hasn't done anything to view and resolve certain matchups, and it's not like it's a piece of cake with over 40 classes and an absurd amount of possible matchups.

Tomahawkman and Punk have not recieved any sort of nerfing in the past three versions. They are by far the most try-hard classes to go to if a player desperately wants to win. And I'm sorry, but I don't think it's really possible to let a class like Magmaman get past the beta testing stages; everything about Magmaman is so overpowered. His non-charged shots can easily win him games due to how rapid fire they are and when fully charged you are guaranteed to kill at least one person no matter how bad you are (even if you use a keyboard). I'd say that this perspective is causing more hurt for the players when they are forced to play with imbalanced classes for an X amount of time.

This is why I used the term "handholding" when refering to this exagerated point of view JC has over disadvantages. It's ok to not be able to fight off enemies you can't handle easily, and if it's technically impossible for you to fight these enemies as one class, try another, and we'll look into this as a potential issue.

I consider classes that people rely on to win as "handholding", and there are many examples of classes like these in Class Based Modification (such as Magmaman, Galaxyman, Diveman, Magnetman, Tomahawkman, Skullman, Flashman, etc.). A player really shouldn't be forced to switch classes just because they are put in an unfair situation. However sometimes it can't even be helped when one person is using a perfect class with no counters.

Sooo... what's the deal with getting over the conflict and simply call an agreement on a final classes mod?
That would for instance, benefit of Justified's top notch graphics and high-quality canon ressources, + the most successful 2D-NES to FPS game classes convertion,
and get the devotion of the CBM team regarding balance, improved classes uniqueness & smoothness, (and eventually vanilla-scaled damage values but that's subjective).

I'm sorry, but the Class Based Modification devteam don't even give half the devotion regarding balance that the Justified Classes team does; the mod is widely imbalanced and always has been. "improved classes uniqueness & smoothness" I'm sorry, what? If you read my previous posts you'll see for yourself that the Class Based Modification has terrible "smoothness" when it comes to class playability due to extreme roles and gimmicks. I could see a merger happening if both mods offered an equal amount of positive points, but Class Based Modification has nothing positive to offer from my perspective. Perhaps explain further why you think the Class Based Modification team have more devotion to balance, uniqueness, and smoothness? (>uniqueness? TF2 Needle and Shadow.)

There were proposals about KY classes and YD classes merging once. I don't think the devs really talked about merging. Either way, I like having two different design philosophies going into classes. If you had asked me which version of classes was better before the recent patches, I would have said CBM without a doubt. The MM9 classes feel really sloppy though and I think they're stumbling to come up with useful designs for Magmaman right now. Meanwhile, JC is buggy at times but I think they'll be able to explore more interesting designs once that dev team becomes more experienced with programming and testing.

I remember playing JC when it first came out and thought it was incredibly slow-paced for me, while CBM would always have 1-2 broken classes that were ripe for abuse, such as Magmaman. I can't say which is better overall, but in my head I imagine CBM being better for DM and CTF, where the action is fast and you need to get kills quickly, while JC would be more suited for TLMS/LMS, where there's no health and the lower damage-per-second of all the classes means you can't simply bumrush the other team, resulting in (slightly) more interesting gameplay.

I don't think you really played the most recent version enough. We buffed nearly every class so that games don't last half as long. And I'm guessing you use Airman in Class Based Modification DM because I certainly got that from what you said. Seriously, Class Based Modification DM? All you have to do to win is just use a spammy class like Airman, Napalmman, Magmaman, Tomahawkman, etc.

Oh, and one more thing. I know you can't control what your dev team does, Fyone, but if you could please instruct all the members of your team to stop shilling for JC in the CBM servers, that'd be greeeeeat. A couple of weeks ago I saw Fr3ak come into a TLMS server to talk about JC while this past week has been filled with random people entering the servers and talking about why CBM is so bad. I don't think they were all devs, but it's starting to annoy the crap out of me. If they could please place their opinions on this topic instead of the servers, I'd greatly appreciate it.

We're not going to "instruct" devteam members to behave on servers, if they want to cause a fuss in a server that's their problem not ours.

CBM (the mod formerly known as YD Classes) has a design philosophy that revolves around taking the robot master's weapons and exaggerating their strengths and weaknesses to create a class that's quite good in one respect, but struggles in others. This method allows the classes to stray from their original RM's design in the interest of squeezing out more fun. However, this exaggerated power structure results in a fast paced, frantic style that in turn breeds many classes with one-hit kills, unavoidable damage, powerful lockdown skills, and other absurd attacks designed to highlight their strengths to the point where Hardman relies more on his Hard Jet to pull himself out of trouble than his large health pool being able to withstand it and the game begins to devolve into "how do I kill everyone before they can kill me" (Gravity Man, Elec Man, Galaxy Man, Magma Man) or "how do I block/evade the bullshit for long enough to be the last man standing" (Skull Man, Wood Man, Gyro Man, Gravity Man)

Class Based Modification doesn't exaggerate the strengths of robot masters, they make most classes have high damage input and low armor (with the exception of Magmaman, Tomahawkman and Punk). From what I'm reading here, Class Based Modification's selling point is the ability to use powerful classes and win games.

Justified (the mod formerly known as KY Classes), however, focuses on staying true to the robot master's classic tool kit, balancing around normalizing those strengths and weaknesses as opposed to exaggerating them. This results in an environment where scoring a frag relies more on critical thinking and pressing what few advantages each class's kit can provide as opposed to finding the attack that can rip apart Hardman in less than a second and spamming it down a narrow hallway. While such an approach provides an environment where most of the classes feel relatively on par with each other, some of the satisfaction factor of obtaining the aforementioned advantages is taken away, making the classes feel weak. In addition, power disparities in the classes end up amplified by the lack thereof, and classes with any sort of reliable or semi-reliable damage (Slash Man, Plant Man, Oil Man, Gemini Man, Magic Man) find themselves at a huge advantage, while classes with potentially high but inconsistent payoffs (Wood Man, Pirate Man, Skull Man, Burner Man) are painful to play as the team seems to value potential over practicality when determining the numbers.

I take it that you think classes such as Woodman, Pirateman, Skullman and Burnerman deal damage in a difficult manor while Slashman, Plantman, Oilman and Geminiman deal easy damage. Woodman is a shield class that gets complete invincibility. The shield attack also inflicts 1/4 of hp with a direct hit. Yes he is slow but his armour and invincibility balances it out. You could really view Woodman as a class that uses a role, where the shield acts like an aiming period for the player to get a good angle and hit on the opponent(s). If the shot is difficult to attempt the player can simple use the altfire to cover his/her escape. This is a prime example of a class gimmick that works. Pirate Man has manipulable Flash Bombs which he can change direction to trap his/her opponents. The altfire can be used as an escape or a finisher. Really it comes down to learning the class and its capabilities in combat, and the amount of uses each move has. Class Based Modication's classes are a lot less intuitive in this sense.

Which approach is better? I personally don't feel there is a right choice or a wrong one.  CBM's classes feel immediately satisfying to play and stay true to vanilla's rapid pace (provided you live long enough to utilize them), while JC's classes provide a slower, more tactical and well thought-out game (most of the time). Which one I prefer really depends on what I'm in the mood for at the time. However, I do agree that both of them are flawed in their own ways based on their respective strategies.

I find this statement wrong in a few senses. Personally I think Vanilla falls more in the middle of Class Based Modification and Justified Classes where it strays from the original canon games more than Justified Classes but not as much as Class Based Modification. Vanilla is able to keep a rapid pace since it follows a completely different gameplay style than Class mods where all players are given a near identical circumstance and fight off by picking up weapons and utilizing them the best way they can. Class Based Modification tries too hard to replicate such a philosophy (which is impossible to do since it is a class-centric mod) and I feel this is what ruins the mod the most.

7

Anything Goes / Re: Class Based Modification vs. Justified Classes

« on: September 06, 2014, 07:42:31 PM »

As a member of the Justified Classes development team, it is one of my duties to seek out information and feedback to make Justified Classes a better mod. And I see this topic being more of an opportunity for people to share opinions whether significant or strictly personal to help improve the quality of both class mods. Just posting to say that you like one mod more than other doesn't really help the discussion very much.

The discussion here is CBM VS Justified. Saying which one I like better is very on topic.

And it seems kind weird if your job is to help improve your classes when every piece of critique thus far you have shrugged off as it if were wrong.

If you reread my previous post you'll notice that I never said that saying which is one is better in a vague matter is off-topic, what I said was it doesn't help the discussion very much. If something is wrong I'm going to say it's wrong, I'm not going to lie and say false statements.

Now now, boys.



I'm left here to imply that JC defines classes without little to no disadvantages or limitations at all, for the sake of making all classes "usable in all scenarios".

I don't agree with this at all. To give one example: a melee-centered, close range class shouldn't be given a projectile attack because of its limitations being made more evident in a long range fight or when fighting against a class with a long range weapon. Instead, it should be given the ability to cut down the range or resist the long range fight or momentarily dodge or block attacks. Eliminating the disadvantages to what you would call a class eliminates the essence of classes being role-centered (<<<<THIS IS A FACT), and instead gives a class two or three wildly different abilities, which just makes a class imbalanced or undefinable, and defeats the purpose of letting players fill in the limitations with their own wit, or to mantain classes within the boundaries of its role.

I agree with you on this point, because there are classes in Justified that fight like this. For example, Slashman where he has no projectile attacks but has lots of mobility options to make up for it. However Class Based Modification fails to accomplish this goal effectively mostly due to the extreme gimmicks players are forced to adhere to. For example, Needleman has no way of getting close to another player since his mobility is terrible and does not have enough armour to shrug off direct hits. His abilities and attacks are only useful at point blank range and terrible at even mid range combat. Let's not forget that Class Based Modification's version doesn't even properly portray Needleman but instead more so portrays TF2 Heavy.

So now we have a more clear differentiation between both mods: CBM sees role limitations as a tolerable (may I add sometimes purposeful) factor, while JC...doesn't?

Justified Classes does take roles into consideration but not in a way that it would hinder the classes' ability to perform in situations.

EDIT: My input here is that this attempt at ironing the limitations, as if they were a bad thing, just results in giving players a less fluctuating online experience, in the sense of a lack of difficulty when facing other players and the abilities to overcome it with strategy. I guess I would call this "handholding"?

Your perspective on my idea is misconceived, I am simply saying that classes that aren't given the compulsory tools or don't have a good balance in abilities to make a role or gimmick work then there are many instances where classes are put in an unfair situation. What Justified Classes is doing is not "handholding" but giving each class a mostly if not equal opportunity to shine in their own individual way. Putting the class in an unfair situation will not make a challenge but instead make a frustrating experience for the player. Especially when one player is putting out double the effort using a disadvantaged class against someone using a class that exploits the map or counters the user's class.

Strange when Metalman's design concept in both mods is to just hold M1. Sure, you have ceiling/floor blades, but that's still only holding M1.

CatMario (Pluto, for the less-fun) can just hold his one buster and keep going.

There we go.
Buster.
See that's where you started to contradict yourself.
Busters usually require no ammo to use.
ANY class with a buster can just M1 and win.

In Justified Classes simply holding down m1 or 2 will not result in success. Having the skills to aim, dodge, and make good use of the classes' other abilities will aid in success. In Class Based modification, classes such as Metalman, Airman, Fireman, etc. have very easy to hit moves that require no ammo and no kind of risk. I'm not sure if this is supposed to be some kind of role but from what I'm seeng it's not very thought out.

By the way, Justified also suffers from homing and any ill fate you listed CBM for.

The homing capabilities in Justified Classes are drastically toned down in both range  and traction compared to Class Based Modification where they are almost identical to their copywep counterparts.

8

Anything Goes / Re: Class Based Modification vs. Justified Classes

« on: September 06, 2014, 04:41:37 PM »

I prefer CBM myself just because I always end up having more fun with it than Justified.
Not super big on either of them though, but when it comes down to either of them, I personally find more enjoyment out of CBM.

Not really adding to the discussion here, simply stating something without evidence as well.

There's not a lot of evidence to be said unless you want my official contract of, "I prefer CBM to Justified". If you want another in depth analysis just so you can "debunk" everything everyone says then I don't know what you're hoping for.

Justified bores me more than CBM. There's no evidence here unless you need a 20 minute video of me playing Justified and getting bored. If I'm gonna get bored, I'm gonna get bored you don't need a gigantic list of evidence to prove that you get bored.

There should definitely be some kind of incentive as to why you find Justified Classes boring. One of the reasons I ask for an explanation or reasoning is to receive feedback and suggestions to help make Justified Classes more appealing to people like you.

As a member of the Justified Classes development team, it is one of my duties to seek out information and feedback to make Justified Classes a better mod. And I see this topic being more of an opportunity for people to share opinions whether significant or strictly personal to help improve the quality of both class mods. Just posting to say that you like one mod more than other doesn't really help the discussion very much.

Though if you want a note, I prefer mods that don't release 20 hotfixes immediately upon a new release.

I find this very hypocritical in a sense because the Class Based Modification had to release just as many if not more hotfixes for their most recent update so singling out only one class mod for such a reason is very ignorant.

9

Anything Goes / Re: Class Based Modification vs. Justified Classes

« on: September 06, 2014, 04:01:38 PM »

I'm not backing anything up with "evidence" because they're my opinions.

That's perfectly fine, your opinion simply has no proper evidence or reasoning is all.

I prefer CBM myself just because I always end up having more fun with it than Justified.
Not super big on either of them though, but when it comes down to either of them, I personally find more enjoyment out of CBM.

Not really adding to the discussion here, simply stating something without evidence as well.

I like my classes mods without extra salt, which is why I order The CBM (The Cutstuff Big Mac) when I'm hungry and in the mood.

This statement just doesn't make any sense, even in a metaphorical perspective.

10

Anything Goes / Re: Class Based Modification vs. Justified Classes

« on: September 06, 2014, 03:07:24 PM »

Justified's not bad, but I just don't feel like there's nearly enough of a following behind it to make mastering classes I like worthwhile.

Any particular reasoning for this statement? Any examples? "Nearly enough following of a behind it" is a pretty vague proclamation.

(click to show/hide)

He still tends to get fucked by hard-melee or hard-sniper types, but he does decently against just about anything else.

The classes I'm guessing you're referring to are Slashman and Darkman 3 since you didn't give any examples. These classes are highly situational checks and do not counter Punk in the long run. Slashman would only be able to kill a punk if Slashman strikes Punk first from a blind spot. If Punk is aware of Slashman, Punk can 1. spam his accurate mainfire to inflict multitudes of damage; Slashman won't even be able to get close enough to strike. 2. spam the copywep screw crusher to hit him from invisible angles 3. use the altfire to either force a kill against a wall or surface or escape with low health gaining more distance. Darkman 3 only counters Punk in very open maps but almost all classes are countered by it in these situations. If Punk gets close or even within mid range of Darkman 3, he can easily rip him to shreds with his mainfire. Punk is perfection in every aspect due to his mainfire being powerful, very accurate, fast moving and consuming no ammo. And if the user has trouble aiming that there is the option of switching weapons to an unlimited ammo copywep Screw Crusher.

I typically have more fun with CBM myself. Each class offers a different experience and fulfills a different role and that's usually what ropes me in.

This statement vaguely says you find Class Based Modification fun.

However, there are things about this mod that reliably ruin an otherwise enjoyable game. The biggest of these is that some classes are wildly imbalanced and require little to no effort on the user's part to rack up frags, which is a serious problem when you consider that CBM is almost always played in TLMS. This is amplified by the fact that most classes have weaker armor; even the copyweps got armor nerfs. Everything feels extremely squishy and it's oftentimes a matter of outlasting your opponent rather than outplaying them. Additionally, I have many aesthetic qualms with this mod, such as Guts Man's Battle & Fighters Super Arm, as well as countless sound effects that were either imported or custom made.

However from this statement you basically contradict yourself with stating many flaws and gripes you have with the mod. From this statement I take it that Class Based Modification is an unbearable experience for you since you never named any massive flaws like these in the light of Justified Classes.

My qualm with this mod soon arose when I rapidly got bored with it. It doesn't feel as involved as CBM; I even heard someone refer to it as a cure to insomnia, and I happen to agree.

Another extremely vague statement with literally no evidence behind such. "My qualm with this mod soon arose when I rapidly got bored with it", you give literally no evidence behind this statement; i.e. why did you get bored? "It doesn't feel as involved as CBM", Why didn't it feel as involved as CBM? "I even heard someone refer to it as a cure to insomnia, and I happen to agree." Again no explanation behind your point.

Some of the sound effects were also questionable; the Stardroids use Game Boy sound effects when NES counterparts to some of them exist in the core. For instance, when playing as Mega Man, equipping the Mega Arm changes the charging and firing sounds to the Game Boy version, creating a significant inconsistency.

We would happily use 8-bit sound effects to replace the Game Boy sound effects if all of them existed, I'm sure when the core take on Megaman V they'll make custom ones for such. However since we have no alternatives for most of the Megaman V sound effects we decided to just use all the Game Boy sound effects for every Megaman V weapon. You're the first I've heard that actually found an irritation to using such so I'm sure this is more of just a personal issue.

My other qualms came more recently--it seems to me that the dev team was more concerned with releasing their mod than dealing with bugs and balance issues, and I cringe every time someone says that this mod is more balanced than the other. A prime example of this: flying Ground Man.

Actually we tested that version for around a month's time, we found the flying Ground Man issue and supposedly solved it since it never came up again but then when we released the mod it occurred again. (Please note that this glitch is fixed in v3b of Justified Classes.) "I cringe every time someone says that this mod is more balanced than the other. A prime example of this: flying Ground Man." Flying Ground Man does not have anything to do with balance, it is a bug and nothing more. When flying as Ground Man it does not help you as much as it stops you from engaging in fights so if you were to really include this bug with balance it still wouldn't hurt the balance of the mod. (Also note that this bug is extremely rare to occur in TLMS/LMS so it wouldn't really become a problem in that situation either.)

There are also some skin replacements that feel unnecessary and imposed; Duo comes to mind.

Duo's core running frames looked very lazily done, he barely looked like he was walking let alone running. The new ones were based off how he ran in Power Fighters. If you were to compare the new ones with old ones side by side the new ones are far superior in every way. The skin change was very much necessary as was all the others (especially the Megaman & Bass ones).

In addition, the behavior and attitude of some of the dev team in-game is a serious turn-off to me. I'm not going to name names but I'm sure some of you know who I'm talking about.

I see this being more of a personal issue than an actual problem with Justified Classes. It seems like most people let their hatred and bias affect their judgement in determining which mod is better at least as far as the forum goes. Especially after I weigh out all the very serious and major flaws you stated about Class Based Modification in terms of general playability in comparison to the minor and almost uncountable flaws with Justified Classes that seem to be more personal qualms than significant issues.

11

Anything Goes / Re: Class Based Modification vs. Justified Classes

« on: September 06, 2014, 12:36:28 AM »

I'd like to make this perfectly clear, Justified Classes is not limited to the original canon classic series. As you stated for Class Based Modification we consider all the Robot Masters' characteristics and descriptions from all official sources whether it be the CD data from Megaman & Bass or their descriptions officially portrayed by Capcom. However we keep their characteristics from their original games they appeared in as first priority. If we feel their original attacks and abilities are not enough to give them an enjoyable playing experience then we will add or alter moves to help them in a 3D FPS environment.

Your argument in stating that Class Based Modification has an advantage over Justified Classes because it designs classes with roles is highly flawed. In fact one of the biggest reasons why Class Based Modification is horribly balanced is because it assigns specific roles to classes. In Justified Classes we design classes so that they would be playable under most if not all circumstances. We try to make every class usable so that players can play as their favourite classes without the map or the opposing class drastically hindering their success. In Class Based Modification, classes such as Needleman, Stoneman, Junkman, etc. are pretty much useless in long and even mid range combat due to their lack of decent long range options. These classes however are straight up broken up close. Class designs such as these in the long run are highly ineffective due to most maps having a balanced map layout. Classes such as these also struggle against classes that posses long or mid range offensive capabilities. Assigning a specific role to a class also creates class counters that completely shut down another class, for example Astroman and Frostman where Frostman can't even touch Astroman due to his infinite flight. Then there are classes that don't seem to have any role where they exceed no matter what circumstance such as Tomahawkman, Punk, Dr. Wily, etc. May I add that there are also classes such as Darkman 3, Magnetman, Diveman, etc. who absolutely dominate in certain maps due to their "role".

I strongly believe that every class with the exception of Starman and Darkman 1 are better designed and balanced in overall playability due to them not being restricted to a specific role and creating an equal opportunity for each class to shine. (Also note that we are still thinking of ways to improve Starman and Darkman 1 to improve their playability in future releases.)

12

Events / Re: [CLASSES] "Back to Basics" (SIGNUPS AVAILABLE NOW)

« on: April 21, 2014, 10:18:14 PM »

A scrubbing competition, seems legit

(click to show/hide)

I'LL JUST JOIN ANYWAY BECAUSE WHY NOT?!?

I now have absolutely no reason to join anymore...

I apologize for the statement I made previously, it was just my personal opinion on the classes being that they are highly imbalanced.

Sorry if this insulted anyone

13

Events / Re: [CLASSES] "Back to Basics" (SIGNUPS AVAILABLE NOW)

« on: April 21, 2014, 08:27:04 PM »

Cutstuff Username: Clayton
In-Game Alias(es): Clay
Classes: Dr. Wily, Skullman, Gyroman, and Punk
Time Zone: EST
Location: Canada
Times available: Anytime
Contact: PM

14

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v1c

« on: March 18, 2014, 01:06:23 AM »

These are some screenshots of the mm8 classes. There will be some other newcomers but we'll keep them secret.

Tengu Man:

(click to show/hide)

Frost Man:

(click to show/hide)

Clown Man:

(click to show/hide)

Grenade Man:

(click to show/hide)

THAT FELT GOOD!!!

Astro Man:

(click to show/hide)

Sword Man:

(click to show/hide)

Search Man:

(click to show/hide)

Don't smoke kids!

Aqua Man:

(click to show/hide)

Duo:

(click to show/hide)

DUO NEVER DIES!!!

15

Anything Goes / Re: About yourself?

« on: March 12, 2014, 05:20:45 PM »

(click to show/hide)

Nicknames/name: Online identity: Clayton. Maybe real name: Chinroy Everton (typical Jamaican name)
Age: 17 (and yes, I'm the eldest brother)
Gender: Male
Grade/level of education: despite my age, I'm actually in my third year of film studies.
Why did you join Cutstuff?: I totally regret joining cutstuff for reasons I'll keep to myself
Have you ever taken a break?: Truthfully, I started playing when the game was first released in September of 2010. I played offline until I beat the game but never knew how to go online. From then I took a year long break until august of 2011.
Favourite tv show(s)?:
Any anime?:
Favourite color?: Green and Orange
Other games you play?: The only game I play is mm8bdm (as sad as it sounds). Lately I've been more focused on real life things than playing video games. That and I can't really get into any other games due to poor design or story.
Favorite hobbies?: Crushing souls in mm8bdm duel, Sculpting, writing, spriting (by spriting I mean editing sprites) and pacing around the house thinking up ideas.
Race/Ethnicity?: Jamaican Canadian (My ancestry traces back to the Ashanti tribe back in Africa)
Fears?: #5: the dark, #4: The end of the world, #3: Failure, #2: Vampires, #1: Aliens
Family?: Brothers, Mom and Dad
Allergies?: Dogs, Cats, Horses, Rabbits, Shellfish, Grass, Dust, Girls, The Cold and Speed Skating
How are you in person vs online?: When I communicate online I can never express myself as well as I do in real life. I am very shy that's one thing I can say.
Something you say alot?: "Oh Alright"
Favorite Mega Man character(s)?: BombLad, X and Gokou
Genre(s) of music?: I have a mixed variety of songs I like ranging from all the megaman classic and x series songs to the Dragon Ball Z super sonic warriors, Super Monkey Ball 1 & 2, Mario Gold Toadstool tour (best music in the series) and Pokemon soundtracks
Favourite song(s)?: #5: Tunak Tunak Tun, #4: Super Monkey Ball 2 World 6, #3: Megaman 10 Chillman's theme, #2: Megaman X3 Doppler's stage 1, #1 Megaman 8 Dr. Wily Stage 2
Height?: Average height for a black guy (not basketball player height though)
Favourite food?: Anything which contains Avocados and Garlic
Pets?: Dog and Green Cheek Conure
Typical everyday outfit?: Pajama pants, bath robe and hair cap to contain my long dreadlocks
Question? Here is three questions:
What word/few words best describe you?: In mm8bdm terms, an obstacle to be surpassed. In real life terms a lazy guy
Ham or cheese? Sorry I'm vegan
Favourite Drink?: Bubble tea
Favourite Youtube Channel?: Penguinz0, Dashie Games and Hayate606
What makes you happy/smile?: watching the reaction of a victim I crushed in battle, Online drama and Ronald McDonald
Dreams or aspirations in life?: To make an anime series/ video game series of Clayton and his experience in mm8bdm (it won't include copyright stuff from capcom and such, I'll gladly interpret it into my own account of things)
Anything Else?: Sure