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Messages - Bikdark

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91
Closed / Re: [Suggestion] Randomly-chosen Skyboxes
« on: January 12, 2016, 05:56:20 AM »
...In what way is this a /bad/ thing? Barring possible eye-killing texture combinations you can remove at your own discretion, this is a harmless change that adds flavor to maps.

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Quote from: "MusashiAA"
I can clearly notice deathmatch is not played at all, true. TLMS and what essentially is Terminator dominate the playfield, with their corresponding mods. I guess they must be really good if they've hold up for this long, are enjoyed by the masses, and outlived vanilla Deathmatch's popularity :^)
Excellent observation. This is largely true.
But neither facts mean that the general game must abide by them because of what I think is or isn't fun, or because of what the mayority of players want, come on now. Nobody is blatantly stupid enough to fall for that reasoning. Don't play dumb when you know why 8BDM is geared towards DM. It's in the name, it's what it offers itself as, it's how it was conceived as, and out of creative consistency, respect for the creators' original intent, and maybe a pinch of advocacy for entry-level players to start with a really easy game mode, 8BDM should still be geared towards DM. What's more funny is that, even despite what I just said, I wouldn't be against future expansions being geared towards other game modes.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Never did I say "I demand you focus on TLMS and Duel exclusively. This is CMM's game and he holds complete artistic freedom, but when you open up multiple feedback threads over the years to try and make the game objectively better, you're damn right I'm going to question your original intent and what should be done to change it. It's been years, and nobody enjoys the mode. Maybe it's time to use the term "Deathmatch" a little bit more loosely in the title of the game. Very few successful games have ever been comfortable with themselves. If you cling so tightly to the "Deathmatch" in the game's name, you will get nowhere, and ultimately the game will continue to fail. You aren't thinking critically.  
I wouldn't listen to OJ or Bikdark. What they say might be worth looking at, and topics like this are interesting, but presenting it as truth "because the mayority do X" is wrong (and it's not the first time they've both presented their opinions this way).

See? Goddammit, always appealing to people, appealing to be on their side. It's so misleading and dishonest.
How immature of you. Use your critical reading skills to analyze and break down my argument like a real adult, not attack me like a child because someone he doesn't like is getting some attention. Don't try to undermine our words because of petty disagreements in the past. Look at our words, not our faces. Your verbal attacks will get you nowhere because you are utterly failing to address any hard evidence or logic. Until you make an attempt at partaking in intelligent discussion, your words mean nothing, and your overall significance in this discussion is negligible.  

Edit: Maxine perfectly summed up my MM1FIR qualms.

93
I agree with OJ. Just because "deathmatch" is in the title of the game doesn't mean you need to restrict yourself (and the players) to that kind of gameplay.

Again, setting aside the whole "deathmatch in the title" argument (because it's basically arguing semantics), you seem to heavily be missing one of my points, Mess. One of my main gripes with old MM1FIR being replaced was that there was no devteam-playerbase communication on the issue. We were left entirely in the dark until it was WAY too late! MM1FIR was not abhorrently bad like MM5WAV or MM5GYR were, so we honestly deserved to have some input before the fact -- and we still DO deserve input, because there seems to be a lot of split opinions on the old map. It's worth looking into again.

To reiterate, the above issue is NOT about MM1FIR specifically, it's about clarity and communication.

On to the next problem: robot master/map identity. Not only do I think it is very silly to try and reflect a robot master's personality in the map itself, but if I absolutely had to use that method of map-making, I would say old MM1FIR does a much better job of representing Fireman than new MM1FIR does. Tricky navigation, high intensity gameplay, fire traps, ladders, the whole nine fucking yards. I felt right at home at old MM1FIR because by god, it /felt like Fireman/. New MM1FIR is a very low-pressure, low-intensity map; not something very characteristic of a hot-headed robot, don't you think? Setting aside subjective views on robot master representation in maps, you failed to address my concern about map homogenization. New MM1FIR blatantly does not bring anything new to the table, and offers a very shallow amount of complexity. Rather than trying to salvage the old fast paced gameplay so people would have something different to play on besides "halls and rooms deathmatch map number 75" (this is basically what the game is now btw) you just said fuck it, and put in Ivory's old map. Very lazy.

And damn, you respond to legitimate complaints about good vanilla content being removed with "Make a mod"? Way to leave a sour taste in the mouth of everyone trying to comprehend your haphazardly concocted responses. Damn straight the game is geared toward vanilla - I remember how you were left in charge of duel and left it unplayable without hefty player modding for years.
(click to show/hide)

94
Oh yeah I mean it's fine if you want to make a majority of the maps for DM/TDM, but if you really think people WANT the game to be 100% DM then you're dead wrong. In the end it's the project leader's choice, but if you want the game to be a success then it's worthwhile to start listening to reasonable feedback.

I don't know why people are so opposed to maps being small or big. Who gives a fuck if old MM1FIR was too small for 32 man servers? That was kind of the point. If the server is too large, stop being lazy and mapvote to somewhere else. I could use the same argument by comparing DM maps and CTF maps -- why should I change the DM map because it's not meant for CTF? Oh right, I shouldn't, because that would be silly. I also like how people don't complain as much about large maps like MM5DAR and MMBMAG, two of the biggest maps in the game. THOSE maps aren't suited toward smaller populations, so why not make them smaller? Smh at these double standards. Like damn, have you ever played the Hyrule Temple level in Smash Bros? Fuckin huge, not the kind of stage you'd play on with only 2 people, but that doesn't mean it should be made smaller to accommodate for those people.

And for the 30th time, variation is NOT BAD. Putting aside the argument over whether the game is DM oriented, the problem of map homogenization remains. I for one would love to see wacky af map designs like old MM7BUR or old MM2HEA. Despite being hated by a good chunk of the community for very good reasons, I always heard myself saying "oh fuck yeah this is different" when going to those maps.

95
The only reason CTF has maps specifically made for it is because you NEED to make maps specifically for CTF -- not because 8bdm devs want to tailor maps for specific modes.


"Posted by admin | | Sunday 17 April 2011 11:54 pm "

Yeah that's a pretty good source musashi. People don't play DM anymore. It's fine if you want to make sure DM is playable on all maps just cuz it's in the name, but I'm pretty sure devs themselves tend to enjoy modes like TLMS or TDM over DM.

96
Alright, assuming this game REALLY SHOULD BE ALL ABOUT DM (it shouldn't btw), it doesn't change the fact that we NEED MAP VARIATION. Old MM1FIR did a great job of offering players a fast paced, small map that you really had to pay attention to do well in. By making it the same as every other map in the fucking game, you remove variation, even though the game is still DM oriented (your original point). Either way you're hurting the game.

Also, there's no sense in using weapons in your argument considering they can be changed on a whim. The LAYOUT is what matters here.

97
While it is nice to try and support the original concept of the game (deathmatch), it is unfortunately an outdated, frustrating, and overall boring game mode. Modes like TLMS currently dominate because people enjoy them the most -- statistics don't lie. DM is great for testing out new features like maps and weapons, but it gets old fast.

Also, what I think you're not understanding is that old MM1FIR being small was a GOOD thing. Making every map overall the same size and promoting the same kind of density isn't what makes a good game with good variation of gameplay -- you're basically reskinning the same map over and over.

So yeah, it WAS small as hell, and for a good reason: so we have different kinds of maps to play on. One of the reasons Quake 3/Live are so competitive and played for 4k hours per person is because all the maps are different. You have Theater of Pain which is fucking HUGE and rife for mlg snipes and long TLMS rounds as well as small af maps like Hell's Gate redux for mindless instagib fun. By making EVERY map DM-oriented, you are homogenizing the game and making even worse than it was before.

The new map isn't horrible, but it definitely doesn't bring anything NEW to the table.

98
Perfectly good criticism, Red. Navigation was pretty restricted if you didn't know how to do a couple fancy jumps, and the map was geared toward matches of ~8 people or fewer. The former is something that should've been dealt with in order to make the map more accessible to new players, while the latter wasn't /necessarily/ bad, in my opinion. Remember that small != bad. Playing with a couple buddies on huge maps like MMBMAG or MM5DAR gets pretty boring after a while, so that's why we have small/crammed maps -- for variation.

What did you like about the map, though? For me, it gave off a very distinct "shit's going down" air (something that the new map lacks greatly), like other small maps. Old MM1FIR, though, was more open than a map like MM4SKU, and less split like MM3DW1. This increased pressure on the player, decreased cover (making for quick matches), and forced the player to plan out their movements VERY carefully to avoid being caught by a duel opponent or TLMS enemy carrying some shit like Ring or Kcrush. Being a map with Hyper bomb, Cutter, and Atomic Fire, it wasn't uncommon to internally scream "LOL FUCKING BULLSHIT" every couple minutes.

While the new map is a slight decrease in bullshit, I'm sure a lot of players that are into stressful gameplay have high resentment toward "new" MM1FIR (yo for real adding a custom map into the game from 2011 is SO questionable). It's one of those maps that feels like it's just rooms connected by hallways. Granted, that's technically how almost all maps are, but to me after many rounds of TLMS, it seems to lack personality. Usually after a few months of playing on a map, I can get used to it even if I don't like it. New MM1FIR though, not so much.

99
New MM1FIR is double the size of the old map btw thunder

Reminder that you need to consider MM1FIR was REPLACED (not changed) without community consent or input -- NO EFFORT WAS MADE TO TWEAK THE OLD MAP. Don't just compare old MM1FIR and its weapons with new MM1FIR, consider how the old map could be changed to be on par with other good maps

100
Excellent reasoning! Let's continue the trend by removing MMBMAG, MMBPIR, and MMBCOL! :^)

Real talk tho the map was small enough to the point where it being symmetrical was a non-issue. It wasn't like old MM2MET, MM2HEA, MM2AIR, or current MM2QUI that you can barely orient yourself in.

101
MM8BDM Discussion / no bass
« on: January 09, 2016, 07:36:27 PM »
Yeah I bet spamming Bass alt is pretty hard there

102
Any update on the MM1FIR situation? Considering the old map was wrongfully removed and replaced with a random (much larger) custom map made in 2011, I'd say it's fair to give the old map a good look at to see if the map should be reimplemented.

103
Projects & Creative / Re: Class based modification (v8b)
« on: January 06, 2016, 11:55:24 PM »
The term "too much of a good thing can be bad" comes to mind.

Quick's speed boost shouldn't have 100% uptime

Copywep dashes need to have a strict limit

Bass needs restrictions on his buster

Centaur shouldn't have infinite ammo on a huge damage buster that spreads

Shade shouldn't be able to pseudo-infinitely fly

Bubble shouldnt arbitrarily be given infinite flight in water

simple shit.

104
Projects & Creative / Re: Class based modification (v8b)
« on: January 06, 2016, 04:15:41 AM »
yeah to be fair quickman is instawin in a lot of cases

105
Projects & Creative / Re: Class based modification (v8b)
« on: January 05, 2016, 12:46:07 AM »
Yes stonefunk, we call it "artistic freedom". This isn't the canon mod, it's the "huh what if they could do that?" mod.

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