Messages

46

Anything Goes / Re: Apples vs. Oranges

« on: September 07, 2014, 01:49:03 AM »

This is just-- eugh... Jesus christ, people...

Musashi, this was foolish, this was childish, and I'm damn disappointed that this thread got this big. But why shouldn't it? There's a lot of drama-loving younger players around these parts that just cannot live with the notion that people play this game the way they don't like to play it. And boy howdy do the folks at Cutstuff love to bicker. So of course people flock to this thread to do just that! Because rather than just not play the mod you don't like, and focus on the ones you do, let's throw a hissy fit!

Here's a thought; y'see, I can't help but notice you run a Classes mod of your own. Well here's a delightful idea; take that design philosophy of yours and apply it to that classes mod you help develop. We have a different approach, a different philosophy, and y'know what? it's working! Look at how popular Justified Classes has become! On any given day either the DM or TLMS server's are full of people having a good ol' time with J-Classes, and boy howdy does that warm my heart as not only part of the dev team, but someone who grew up on Mega Man and loves what this mod is doing.

Is that what this is about? Are you upset Justified is taking off and the original Classes mod is in a slump? There's ways to remedy that, y'know. Instead of trying to start internet pissing contests, go give your mod the shot in the arm it needs. The Justified team works their asses off not just making classes, but polishing the mod as a whole to support extra game modes, add little flavor bits here and there (the jumping sprites, extra animations, etc.), and generally expand the experience for players. Maybe you guys need to do a little something extra like that. Maybe all those things you thought weren't worth it really were. By all means, I welcome and encourage you to do so. I got nothing against "YD" Classes. I used to dig 'em before what I feel is a better alternative came along. But here's the thing; I don't even worry, or think about, YD Classes. I play Justified, I focus on Justified, and when I'm done playing Justified, I move on. Why is this such a foreign concept?

I'm getting so annoyed by this. And from both camps, too. Do you know how irritating it is to check the J-Classes devchat, seeing there's all these new posts, thinking it's going to be productive, and seeing streams of "waaah people don't like us." Yes, too many members of the Justified Team are thin-skinned, and a select few I won't name are downright immature. One of them being overzealous to the point of being obnoxious (I appreciate the effort and enthusiasm, but jesus christ...). While all this is true, I can't say too much because I can't blame them. I mean, good god the second Justified dropped you had these goofy loyalists to CBM going on and on about how Justified sucks like they've gone some financial interest in CBM, several people flat out saying "I haven't played it but it sucks". Well how do you expect the J-Team to act when this is the reception they get?! Is CBM paying you?! Why are you so childishly vehement about these things?! Why do you care so much?!

Look, I play this game during my work hours (I work from home. Freelance). I take breaks from my work to play some Mega Man FPS that makes my childhood go giggly. I try to unwind with a little mega man and I keep seeing this childish pissing contest that's completely and utterly pointless. I try to do what I can to help the mod grow because I love it, and I find myself smack dab in more pissing. All I wanna do is play as the Robot Masters I effing adored as a kid. Why is this apparently so much to ask?

Which leads me into my main question here; why do you care? Seriously? If you don't like the way Justified does things, great, you have a classes mod, you can remedy this problem. I don't like the way CBM does a lot of things, but rather than get pissy about it and make threads encouraging people to fight over it, I focus on helping the Justified team make that mod great, because that's the one I like to play. I just don't play CBM. I don't go on their servers, I don't go on their thread, I chill in Justified town where I actually want to be. Yes, members of the Justified dev team need to calm the hell down (especially you, Fr3ak), but this whole thing is absolutely stupid. I thought I was done with this childish crap when I got out of high school.

Two entirely different mods for two entirely different groups of people.

You're literally comparing solitaire to minesweeper.

When Bikdark of all people is the most sensible one here, you all should be ashamed of yourselves.

I fully acknowledge this is probably more hostile than it should be, but god damn am I sick of this...

47

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3ah-fix

« on: September 05, 2014, 10:05:05 PM »

He got a damage buff and he can hold the guard stance out as long as he wants, so you can't predict when his stance ends and punish him.

48

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3ah-fix

« on: September 05, 2014, 09:51:17 PM »

I can't say I understood a word of that, but Enker got nothing but buffs so I fail to see why you think he sucks now.

49

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3ah-fix

« on: September 02, 2014, 12:29:19 AM »

Yes, it's this one, though I don't remember the code for it.

50

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3ah-fix

« on: September 01, 2014, 08:12:07 AM »

I really do hate to say this, because it feels ad hominem, and I know it's probably going to get you upset, but I feel like I have to due to some of your points here...

...I think you're just bad at this...

For instance, Pirate Man. Foregoing the fact that his mines do a hefty amount of damage (2 or 3 mines can kill a target, depending on how well you land them so they're within the explosion for longer), hit multiple targets within the continuous splash, can be set of manually, etc., 20 damage at max for his Bubble? Are you just throwing it out at random? Have you not used an uncharged Bubble in a confined area? Just yesterday I scored a double kill with a diagonal uncharged bubble in a hallway against two fresh opponents. Are you not aware you can steer the charged Bubble, and in a low ceiling area you can hug an enemy for most of their entire health bar? You're not supposed to recklessly go for the charged version all the time (and we're foregoing the fact he's armored during the charge), they're two different versions of the attack with two completely different applications. Did you not know Burner Man's Forest Diver can be used during a jump, and foregoes the initial leap if you do so, allowing you to spring it on unsuspecting targets? Unable to hit with Pillar Break? Are you unaware that Uranus himself has instant kill properties during the stomp as well? Or that Uranus can move during the initial leap? Of course an attack with a massive hitbox that deals instant death like Pillar Break is going to be tricky to use, but there's a million and one ways to trap someone, and flat out guarantee they will die with this attack. And if you're trying to camp a corner to charge it up, you're relying on it too much. His Deep Digger is his most solid and reliable method of scoring kills, and considering it's a 5HKO with a faster travel speed than most attacks, that's a pretty damn good method of killing people.

I really am sorry, but you're sitting here complaining about the usefulness of attacks that can cleave most of a--if not an entire--health bar in an instant when used properly. Forest Diving into a crowd rakes in frags as Burner, and in a one-on-one situation his grenades are a solid and punishing tool. And foregoing even Deep Digger AND Pillar Break, Uranus has a solid dash attack along with everything else that gives him tools at close, medium, and long range.

Many combos aren't going to work because if they did, that class would be grossly OP and that one strategy would dominate online play. If that Cold Man combo you described worked the way you wanted it to, that's all anyone would do with Cold Man, and a character that locks you down and forces you to eat his 2HKO projectile is not my idea of balanced. Especially when a well-aimed Ice Wall can rebound and hit an opponent twice. This isn't TF2, where if you're playing as the Heavy, you stick to the minigun, or if you're the soldier you focus on your rockets. It's not about finding the one strong thing and throwing it out as often as possible. It's about synergizing their arsenal and figuring out the right applications for each attack. And some forms of synergy won't work for balance purposes. But if you're Metal Man, sometimes you wanna spam those Metal Blades, but then other situations come along where the Metal Gear is better. If you're too focused on the blades, then a situation requiring the gear is going to come along and you're at a disadvantage of your own making. Uranus is not Pillar Break. Nor is he Deep Digger. He's not even his dash attack. He's a combination of all of these moves, and the various applications they present.

I know this feels like a personal attack, and I don't mean it to, but honestly, there's quite literally nothing else I can say. when you've got a character with a 5HKO projectile, 3HKO melee attack that doubles as a speed boost of sorts, instant death attack with a large hitbox that makes the user effectively invincible, and you're saying they're useless and weak, what else can I say to that?

I'm not saying the mod is perfectly balanced, because we're constantly finding ways to balance it, buff and nerf who need it, and close the gaps between classes, but this idea that some classes are generally useless is absurd, and the ones you're touting as dominant are far from it.

there's multiple ways you can play him.

Basically, if the class feels like it's not accomplishing anything, either you're approaching them the wrong way

multiple ways
wrong way

Sorry to interrupt you two again but isn't this contradicting itself?

I mean its just another YD vs Justified war and both sides are to take blame, and after what Stonefunk just sent me it seems as if the justified side is the saltiest neptune in all of bikini bottom while coldfusion tries to make points without fully understanding what each class can do. Again, both sides are to blame.

Smarminess aside (and frankly I'm not terribly interested in your personal gripes with Stonefunk, though I will fully admit the guy is way too sensitive and melodramatic), there's no contradictions here at all. Just because there's multiple ways to play him doesn't mean there aren't wrong ways, as well. Not terribly hard to understand.

51

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3ah-fix

« on: September 01, 2014, 07:31:38 AM »

Obviously I'm referring to gameplay.

52

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3ah-fix

« on: September 01, 2014, 07:05:10 AM »

I wouldn't say Cold Man is broken at all. he has a "comfort zone" where he wrecks opponents, but there's a lot of ways around him and a lot of places he struggles. Uneven surfaces trip up his offense, and he has nothing to hit with at a distance. Heck, he's got one--and only one--method if direct offense, and it's a 3HKO in general situation.

As for Fusion's first part, that is purely his own personal problems. Why do I say this? First of all he states "this is how Cold Man is to be played". Except there's multiple ways you can play him. His mainfire RoF allows for a steady stream of ice walls, so you can release enough of them bouncing around to inhibit enemy movements and overwhelm opponents. If you're in a one-on-one scenario, your method is one way to do it. You can also trick-shot the ice walls around corners. Also you can angle a wall to make it hit an opponent twice. You're coming at J-Classes like it's YD Classes. YD Classes are built around playing them a certain way, in general. They have a mission statement for you to follow. Justified Classes simply hand you the arsenal they had from the games, a general idea (hey, don't get up close with Metal man, he's fragile and all his attacks are long range), and a general balance of what they're better at than other classes. Beyond that, you have more creative freedom as to how you approach combat. Sometimes a class just doesn't click with you. That's gonna happen. And really, what I'm getting from your complaints of satisfaction is that you just want big damage from something simple. If that's not the case, that's how you're making it sound.

As for your list of "Group 1" (because Perfectlylegit addressed Group 2 perfectly), Turbo man's Scorch Wheel is rather slow and not difficult to avoid at all in wide open areas (which are more commonplace than corridors). His Crash Drive doesn't steer on a dime so it requires proper aim and timing to make use of, and like Blizzard Man's bowl, it can be jumped over. Duo is strong, but also easy to dodge; stay close and strafe. Once he uses his charged punch, he has to commit to it. And good lord is he wide open if he misses. And Pluto?! Really?! Until this update he was grossly underpowered. Yes, he had a lot of tools, but none of them got him anywhere. His damage was lacking, his homing shots don't home in as well as most and his Break Dash wasn't worth the risk of throwing yourself at opponents with its poor damage output (a direct hit from a Break Dash dealt about an 1/8 of your maximum health in damage before this buff. It took a ridiculously situational setup to get him to deal big damage in testing, hence his buffs in this update) . No one was winning with Pluto unless they were playing TLMS and their strategy was to run from danger until the enemy team whittled away. I'm not sure what "invulnerability frames out the ass" you think he had, but much of Pluto's arsenal is risky and puts him in danger (dive into combat head first, or plant yourself on the wall and be a sitting duck). Fyone can correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure he can be hit during Break Dash, as well.

And to be perfectly frank, you're not lending much credibility to your points when you're calling Uranus, of all classes, "gimped". It's not difficult to get Pillar Break at all (which is why you see it so often), he has a 5HKO projectile with a large hitbox and above average speed that boomerangs back smaller shots, a strong melee attack in the form of a fast lunge attack which closes the gap in the blink of an eye or can escape from danger, and Pillar Break is... well, Pillar Break. Uranus is one of the most solid heavyweight characters in the mod. He does big damage without completely wrecking your health, and he can build up to an immensely powerful attack that still requires some precision to be able to use.

Basically, if the class feels like it's not accomplishing anything, either you're approaching them the wrong way or they just don't click with your playstyle. Trust me, I've played--and won--with every class on this mod (folks are well aware of my affinity for choosing classes based on the stage). Even times I thought a class was grossly underpowered I found a different way to approach them, and my tune quickly changed. Take Neptune; awhile back, some of the YD devteam popped in to play, and Celebi was complaining up and down about how weak and useless Neptune was. Try convincing the average J-Classes player of that now. Yet we never buffed him between when Celebi complained and now. Even I thought he was overly weak. Then I figured out how to actually get the most out of his arsenal, and that tune radically changed. 5HKO fast projectile thrown at a good arc with shrapnel projectiles and a strong AoE alt? Ain't nothing useless about that. A smart, aggressive neptune can be the bane of a match.

These aren't classes with a basic goal in mind. Justified Classes gives players an arsenal with each class, and asks you, the player, to make the most of it. Every class has the tools to win--that's a major focus in this mod. We don't want classes stuck in support roles, or rendered useless in certain game modes--it's up to you to figure out how to use those tools, and if they're the kind of tools that work for you.

On another note, we will be implementing character changes between DM and LMS. Also...

(click to show/hide)

Wait, you can trigger Rain Flush in the air? When the hell was this added?

Since the beginning.

Also, Toad Combat? What on Earth happened when I stopped paying attention to this mod?

Toad Man's leap does contact damage and has variable height.

First one is nigh impossible to land because of how it works. Second one, I've never seen actually hit, mainly because the first one exists and pretty much does that anyway. Either way, you still leave yourself completely open to being set up on after the two seconds are up, a trait which completely mitigates almost any advantage the shield gives.

I'm seeing a lot of "I haven't seen"s in your points, despite the fact you say you stopped paying attention to this mod. Melee Skull Barrier is one of the most widely used forms of offense with Skull Man, and one of the most effective. You can jump right into the fray and unleash a melee attack that is both invincible, and pushes everyone away from you. Coupled with his high projectile speed making long range combat a breeze for him, and a mainfire that kills in about 6 shots with a speed and RoF like that, and I'm having a hard time seeing the issue here.

...And has a charge time of five years, a firing rate of "please kill me", and Super Arm is strictly better in terms of overall damage output.
On a failed shot.
...Please.

It's telling how much hyperbole you need to make your points. Super Arm also has a low RoF, slows Guts down while he holds the boulder, has less range due to the arc, and if it misses it launches slower moving projectiles straight forward. Deep Digger does less damage than Super Arm because everything else about it is superior; no slowdown when holding the block, Faster startup period when the projectile is pulled up, better RoF, boomerang shrapnel that covers a wider area and hits from behind, and it fires straight forward allowing for greater range. All this, and it's a 5HKO. And if getting Pillar Break feels like "five years", try having the Deep Digger block out less when you don't need it. You'll find that you'll get your instant death attack much faster.

Seriously, Uranus gets frequent accusations of being overpowered, and you're calling him useless?!

Wait, Forest Diver can kill people? I've never seen it actually hit for any sizable amount of damage.

Um, dude? It's his strongest attack. It's an instant death if he hits you head on, can hit large groups, has an extended active period, and a wide range.

Also, "almost 25 per hit" is not a very good damage value for something with an effective range of two meters. Hell, Silver Tomahawk is easier to hit with and still does better damage.

The grenades have splash damage that's roughly three times the size of their little explosion effect. They also have low ammo consumption and a good RoF.

53

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3a

« on: August 30, 2014, 08:12:56 PM »

Hotfix is in the works, and will be available shortly.

54

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v2dh

« on: August 27, 2014, 07:54:59 PM »

We won't even be testing until maybe next week. If there's no major bugs or balance issues, it'll be shortly after that. If there are, who knows.

55

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v2dh

« on: August 10, 2014, 06:11:41 AM »

He's... not hard to hit at all.

Aim up.

If anything his movement is predictable and it's easy to calculate where he'll land and where to shoot.

56

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v2dh

« on: August 10, 2014, 03:09:33 AM »

He was already nerfed a long time ago. He's also helpless without Sakugarne, loses it completely if he runs out of ammo for it, has a small, narrow hitbox with it, and is pretty easy to dodge (just run under him). Anything else and he'll be useless.

57

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v2dh

« on: August 06, 2014, 06:39:41 AM »

Yep, and working hard on the new release!

In terms of progress, the MM&B classes are pretty much all finished. Now we're just doing all the final bugfixes and balancing.

58

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v2dh

« on: July 20, 2014, 04:04:16 AM »

I actually agree he needs to be buffed. As he stands now he's more of a novelty than a practical class, which is why everyone stopped using him after he was no longer new. Make him fire more rapidly once his bazooka is primed, increase the speed his rockets travel, and give him a few extra things he can build, and he should be able to stand level with the big boys.

59

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v2dh

« on: July 14, 2014, 04:04:35 AM »

I've actually been trying to convince the team to make a Yellow Devil Terminator, centered largely around his abilities from Power Battle/Fighters. Tossing cubes that bounce around; firing eye lasers; splitting into pieces and flying forward (playing as him, this would feel like Punk's Cannonball); all that good stuff. He's not a Robot Master, but he is a staple of the series (hell, he made it into Smash Bros.!).

60

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v2dh

« on: July 13, 2014, 10:06:38 AM »

To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't touch Uranus. He's right where he needs to be.