Messages

16

Projects & Creative / Re: Class based modification (v7bh)

« on: July 08, 2014, 06:22:33 AM »

I'm just wondering if we'll finally get rid of Eletoad man only to bring in Dynamo Man doing more or less the same thing with his Lightning Bolt. :l

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Projects & Creative / Re: Stardust's Workshop (The Saxton Hale Rebirth ++ domain)

« on: July 07, 2014, 10:19:47 PM »

Well, yes, you could question the need for secret bosses as a whole, since it seems to be complicating things quite a bit. I wasn't trying to open that can of worms; I was just trying to take advantage of the way the current structure allows for bosses that are more powerful than normal. (Which I guess would be the downside to getting rid of secret bosses; you couldn't have a tough boss like un-nerfed Dio because it just wouldn't be fair.)

I've honestly never been a fan of the perfect round requirement, really. As has already been stated, people can ruin them by spectating or suiciding, and besides that, some bosses by nature are particularly good or bad for getting perfect rounds. (Guts Man G comes to mind.) Back when I first suggested the idea of making Dio a secret boss, I also suggested making the "unlock" requirement be based on consecutive wins rather than perfect rounds (not quite foolproof, but still more fair, I think), but it was refused on the grounds that "You have to get perfects to see Akuma in Street Fighter, so the same should apply here." (This was back when the other secret bosses could only be chosen by the host of the server.) The most recent update is at least a little more reasonable about it by not requiring the perfect rounds to be consecutive, but I still think consecutive wins would be a better alternative.

Again, I'm not saying that we should have "boring" bosses and "fun" bosses. It would be wonderful if every boss could be as fun and unique as Dio, but there's a difference between our ideal goal and what's realistically possible. So for now, I'm just trying to suggest ways to work with what we've already got, and maybe someday we'll eventually have all the bosses fixed and fleshed out to be fun and unique in their own ways.

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Projects & Creative / Re: Stardust's Workshop (The Saxton Hale Rebirth ++ domain)

« on: July 07, 2014, 08:24:36 PM »

No one's clamoring for Akuma because he has 1 million HP or something.

That and the many other unfair things about him could still be fixed with a liberal enough application of the nerf hammer.

Dio doesn't really seem that overly challenging really. It isn't a 50-50 for sure, but it isn't a 90-10 in the Hale's favor either.

I'm fine with that ratio for a secret boss. I'm not fine with it for a regular boss. If the boss is intended to be a normal one, then you're obligated to fix that ratio if it becomes obvious that it's skewed to one side. (But again, that would make Dio Flash less awsumz, right?)

The same thing applies though. Secret bosses are secret, you rarely seem them show up. So why would you make the normal bosses all the boring ones? A secret boss should feel like an accomplishment yes, but you don't want to actually accomplish that if all your bosses are "look at me ma I'm exactly like Saxton himself just with a different face!!11"

I dunno, that seems like a pretty basic principle of gaming and life itself to me--you put in effort doing the less interesting things so you can get to the good stuff that you were actually looking forward to. Why else do people get up at 7 AM to go to work every day? Now, mind you, it would be ideal for the run-of-the-mill stuff to also be interesting in its own right, but you're still mainly working toward a specific goal--and you wouldn't be working at all if the goal weren't worthwhile. In fact, you don't even have to accept the goal if you don't want to--in this mod, if you decide that you don't want to fight secret bosses, you can simply suicide or spectate at the end of otherwise perfect rounds so that the secret bosses never appear. And if the secret bosses are the ones that are "Saxton himself just with a different face," then you can bet that people will start doing that sort of thing.

19

Projects & Creative / Re: Stardust's Workshop (The Saxton Hale Rebirth ++ domain)

« on: July 07, 2014, 08:01:48 PM »

It would be just lovely if every single boss could be made as interesting as Dio, but that's a lot easier said than done. :?

I want you to realize that I didn't just pick out Dio for this purpose because he's an interesting boss. Nor am I using "secret boss" as an excuse for any boss or gimmick which is considered unfair. (You don't see me recommending that we kick Talbain upstairs so people will stop complaining about the darkness.) I suggested Dio in particular because he's in a very unique position: Everyone agrees he's overly difficult, but even though that would normally result in application of the nerf hammer, people still don't want to see that happen because he's just too fun as it is. (I think even Freeman touched on this a bit in his post.)

The thing is, that level of challenge (for the survivors, mind you) that's part of why he's fun simply isn't acceptable for a normal boss. A normal boss is supposed to provide a fair fight--that is, all things being equal, the boss should win roughly 50% of the time. So if you want to keep the higher level of challenge that Dio provides, the only appropriate way to do it that I can see is to make him a secret boss instead, because those guys aren't bound by the fairness rule.

There's also the matter of making secret bosses actually feel like rewards. I can see why you would want to fight an interesting boss as often as possible, but the thing is, if you just carry that idea to its logical extreme, you're going to end up with the worst bosses taking up the "secret boss" roster. Instead of being rewards for good survivor play (or plain old patience), the "secret bosses" instead become the reject pile, comprised of all the lame bosses that weren't interesting and popular enough to join the normal boss society and show up on a regular basis. It would feel like a total slap in the face to be told that you get to fight a "secret boss," only to meet a boss that no one wanted to see in the first place. Even though it may pain us to see good bosses less often, I really think it's only appropriate that they be the secret rewards, not the rejects.



I find it interesting that even though everyone regards Akuma as being "teh coolest," no one's asking for him to be brought down to normal boss status. It makes me wonder what people would be saying now if Dio had been a secret boss from the start. Would you guys be clamoring for him to be brought down to normal because no "good" boss should be limited to such rare appearances?

20

Projects & Creative / Dio and Secret Bosses

« on: July 06, 2014, 10:23:37 PM »

The issue I have with the current secret bosses is that it's difficult to get them to appear (or, at the very least, it takes many rounds to get lucky enough times), but when they do appear, they just don't feel like much of a "reward." Like you said, the secret bosses should be something special, something to look forward to, but I just don't get that feeling from the main three.


Berserk Roll, as another Saxton clone, doesn't feel like anything special, and now that rage is based on HP, she's even less interesting. I won't go off into how I dislike her as a character idea again, but I know there are others who feel the same way. There are also those who like her, but I still don't think exciting half of the players and annoying or enraging the other half is very good job performance for a secret boss.

Neo DS isn't much better in terms of gameplay and he still seems to have durability issues. Some people still hate the character idea for being a power trip for Neo; I don't because I wasn't around to see the original drama, but I can understand why some would hate him.

Gamma's Feet...ugh. Before, they were giant, slow damage sponges that took way too long to kill and would usually win just by tiring out opponents. (Ever tried beating a near-dead foot and a healthy one all by yourself, just using the non-upgraded Duo Fist? It takes forever and it's not fun.) The last update seems to have made them faster, but their gameplay can still be awkward at times, as others have mentioned (though I do think they're more interesting than Roll or Neo). And, of course, as character ideas, you either like them and think they're funny or you don't. (I don't.)

Akuma is the one secret boss who really feels like he fills the role well, but he's incredibly rare. He's also practically unbeatable (unless he gets telefragged...or falls into one of Duora's many custom pits :l). Mind you, both those things are fitting for the resident "secret secret boss," but the rarity means he doesn't get to do much, really.



This is where Dio comes in. Dio is quite a well-received boss overall; the only problem is that he's too powerful. But the thing is, he's kind of like Akuma to a small extent in that his power seems to contribute to his status in a way. I actually do understand when people admit that he's OP but still don't want him nerfed. Turning Dio into more of a glass cannon would help put him on the same level as other bosses, but it would also make him feel a bit less impressive when he just gets mobbed and destroyed, you know? (Not to mention the fact that he needs quite of lot of HP to get his rage.) Turning him into a secret boss would allow us to get the best of both worlds; he could still be powerful and impressive (though still beatable, unlike Akuma), but he would be doing his thing in a more appropriate way. I admit that I would be a little sad not to see him as much, but at least he could still be the fun and extra-challenging boss people liked before, and if anything, people would be even more pleased to see him when he does show up this way. (Perhaps you could turn one of the other secret bosses--maybe Roll or Neo--into a regular boss instead? Even if they do show up more often, I think it would be preferable to treating them like "rewards" when they're quite the opposite for some people.)



Anyway, I don't know if you'll make the change to Dio or not. (It seems like you're reluctant to do so.) But I'd at least like to say that I hope we can get better secret bosses than the ones we have now (aside from Akuma).

21

Projects & Creative / Re: Stardust's Workshop (The Saxton Hale Rebirth ++ domain)

« on: July 06, 2014, 06:18:35 AM »

(click to show/hide)

GOSM having both his slice and his meteor are redundant and more of a waste. people are gonna use the meteor in every scenario. the slice is more of a waste of time, and coding space. when you can throw a rock at a person's head from a safe distance, vs getting in close to slap their faces around, what are you really going to do?

The slash isn't meant to be his main attack; it's mainly there so that people can't camp out under a low ledge and laugh at Starman's futile attempts to get his meteors to land on them.

why does hale himself have no real change. new skin, new hud, less damage. Oh and pretty twilight sparkles when he rages. Saxton hale, who the mod is named after, is probably the most bland and unneeded hale now, with how everyone else is setup. Even clunky derpy Moocho Mun has more abilities then hale himself. The only thing that makes him stand out is how he (probably?) gets the most health, which doesnt do him much good other then stall matches.

I think we can allow for at least one "simple" boss--one boss that you don't have to read the instruction manual to know how to use. Besides, Saxton himself is more or less staying true to his TF2 roots.

On the subject of Dio Flash, the most common attitude toward him that I've encountered on servers seems to be, "Dio is OP, but I still like him this way." I've already voiced my own opinions on him in servers, but I'd like to reiterate my earlier suggestion: Promote Dio to Secret Boss status and leave his power level where it was before. You've already mentioned that you tried to make the secret bosses somewhat more challenging than the average boss and Dio already seems to meet that criteria (at least before the most recent nerf; I haven't seen much of him since then), so why not let him fill that role instead? To me, at least, it would certainly feel like more of a "reward" than getting stomped on by giant feet or encountering one of two relics from a bygone Saxton era who honestly aren't all that interesting to fight anyway. (Neo's battle theme is the best thing about him, really; Talbain can pull off the dash-'n-slash far more effectively.)

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Projects & Creative / Re: Stardust's Workshop (The Saxton Hale Rebirth ++ domain)

« on: July 05, 2014, 02:03:09 AM »

Oh by the way, I just remembered that recently, some people reported that the bug that causes the second boss's rage message to disappear when the primary boss is killed has returned. It came up when I used Seeldier's rage to mow down the last two survivors after Seeman died; I didn't notice, but they said they were caught off guard because my rage message had disappeared. (I'm not sure if this affects the Genesis Unit, since their rage meter is shared, but I'm guessing other dual bosses might have the same problem.)

Also, it seems that lag can sometimes "eat" Ninja Spy's rage, causing him to not turn invisible on some people's screens. It's always been a possible, if rather rare, occurrence, but I didn't pinpoint lag as the reason until recently, when he failed to turn invisible on my screen because he used his rage while I was having a lag spike. I'm not sure there's any easy way to guard against the problem, though.

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Projects & Creative / Re: Stardust's Workshop (The Saxton Hale Rebirth ++ domain)

« on: July 02, 2014, 07:40:34 AM »

Well, as long as Auto gets some way to contribute...I was going to suggest turrets a la TF2 Engineer or YD Classes Gemini Man, but perhaps that would be too much.

Also, I find it interesting to note that Bass, the fastest class, seems to be the most popular, and Duo, the slowest class, seems to be the least popular. I remember seeing Duo played more back when he had 200 HP, but nowadays I don't see many people other than myself picking him. Auto is actually a fairly popular choice already, but I think that's mainly because his current play style gives people an excuse to hide and mess around until everyone else dies.

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Projects & Creative / Re: Stardust's Workshop (The Saxton Hale Rebirth ++ domain)

« on: July 01, 2014, 11:10:55 PM »

You're confusing me here...You just admitted that Roll is more helpful than Auto, but then, in response to my example, you say, "Nonono, you can make those weapons work! See? You can still fight with the weapons you're given!...Uh, but that doesn't mean Auto is useless!" Make up your mind please. I never said Auto was completely useless, but when you said that Roll's healing ability was "more relevant," I agreed. So again, I ask: Doesn't that mean Auto is overshadowed by Roll? Doesn't that mean you should buff him in some way until he can contribute on a level equal to Roll? (And in further support of that position, I'd like to point out that Roll's healing is useful to everyone, including even herself if the beam is bounced properly, while Auto can only help weapon users.)

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Projects & Creative / Re: Stardust's Workshop (The Saxton Hale Rebirth ++ domain)

« on: July 01, 2014, 08:58:21 PM »

As for Support if I may say... running out of ammo is very scarce. Usually you die before you used your 5 WTanks (3 to 5 starting weapons + 5 Wtanks for a single survivor is quite a lot, + an Eddie on occasion). Auto's support is not as much relevant as Roll's ability to heal : as you don't mandatorily need any weapons to survive, but ; you need a bigger health to have more chance of surviving.
are there really "poor weapon selections" ? Everyone gets common weapons like Tengu Blade, Fire Storm, Gemini Laser but you will never get rare and powerful weapons like Astro Crush or Sakugarne. I think the weapons are different but I'm not sure how you can say they're "poor", each weapon shines somewhere  
Assuming the Auto is a serious/skilled player, he'd understand if you say a simple "wtank pls" in chat ; most of the time Autoes drop a weapon when their bar is full, even if nobody is around (so they can charge the next weapon)
Some Autoes even build their shop somewhere so you can ask him nicely a wtank without expecting the hale to find you here ; but hey anyway running out of ammo is veeeery rare, and even though, Mega Man is the only class that has a awful buster to fight with, all the other classes have a better Buster. Also don't forget you also get 5 new fresh W Tanks when you're the last survivor

Well, when I talked about poor weapon selection, I was referring to the fact that although "each weapon shines somewhere," there's no guarantee that the weapons you get will shine in the situation you're in. For instance, Star Crash and Slash Claw can be great weapons normally, but when the boss you're fighting is Morshu...not so much. (Unless you want to sacrifice yourself in his oil fires.)

With regard to the Roll vs. Auto comparison, though, don't you think that's a problem? Auto isn't really any more of a fighter than Roll, so if the support he provides isn't as useful--and I can easily agree that it isn't--then why bother using him at all? (Unless you want to just mess around, which I see a lot of Autos doing.)

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Projects & Creative / Re: Stardust's Workshop (The Saxton Hale Rebirth ++ domain)

« on: June 30, 2014, 10:18:22 PM »

Also I believe it's also the Medic's role to heal other players even when they're not asking for it (if you see someone getting hurt, release the altfire. Since the v2d you can even know if a target is low or almost full on health, the healing beam changes of color (red ==> wounded, yellow ==> ~half life, green ==> full on health. When your target is full on health, it also plays a different sound)

I'm glad you bring this up, because it's one of the reasons I still think there are improvements to be made. In the heat of battle, you don't want to have to repeatedly aim at different players (sometimes unsuccessfully due to the unintelligent homing of the beam) and tap alt fire just to figure out who actually needs healing. You want to be healing the wounded ones immediately, as fast as possible, and you don't want to waste ammo, either. It definitely does not cost 0 ammo to check people, and those little bits you spend add up when you have to check multiple people or have a hard time actually hitting them with the beam.

Also, it's worth noting that a lot of players (I'd say the majority of them) don't use health binds, and absolutely no one uses the chat to ask for healing because it just takes too long. I occasionally use the chat to ask an engineer for a W Tank, but I've never seen anyone else do that (and most engineers just troll me anyway, because they usually choose to be an engineer so they can goof off).

Speaking of which, I should mention that as bad as a medic might have it when it comes to communicating with other players and evaluating their needs, engineers have it far worse. There's absolutely no way to tell who's low on ammo or got stuck with a poor weapon selection, so you pretty much just throw stuff at people and hope it's useful somehow. (Because like I said, people don't want to use the chat and leave themselves open to attack.) Pretty much the only sort of strategy you can make use of is to follow around a skilled player and keep him well-supplied, but it doesn't feel like much.

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MM8BDM Discussion / Re: MM8BDM Funnies

« on: May 14, 2014, 06:46:17 AM »

Been a while since I posted a funny, but this one really made me laugh. And yes, it's from Saxton. Sue me.

The map was IDM19 (Beneath the Well), and the boss was Super Macho Man. There were water currents all over the place, which caused some shenanigans during the fight, including Super Macho Man killing off a survivor by stunning him and letting the current carry him into a pit. Eventually, there was just one survivor left with Super Macho Man only on his second life, but since he got the Drain Rune, he was able to survive for quite some time. After some fierce fighting in the water, he managed to knock down Super Macho Man for the second time in the fight.

And that was when we all realized that the water current still affects players while Super Macho Man's knockdown/button mashing recovery sequence is playing out.

Oops.

Cue both the survivor and Super Macho Man being unavoidably swept off into a pit and the boss winning by default.

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Projects & Creative / Re: Stardust's Workshop (The Saxton Hale Rebirth ++ domain)

« on: May 07, 2014, 09:00:41 PM »

So, I've been playing this mod for a good bit over the past few days. I'm definitely enjoying it, but I did come across a few issues I felt I ought to report:

The map repeat exploit (where the last surviving player spectates at the end of the round to force another round on the same map) is back. I'm assuming it's the result of an oversight and not intentional.

The perfect counter isn't quite foolproof, apparently. While I was experimenting with bots, I somehow managed to get Akuma to show up (much to my surprise) even though the second of the supposedly perfect rounds definitely included a death. As I recall, after one of the bots died in that round, I decided to end the round immediately by kicking all the bots at once. This caused me (the only player left) to get frozen in place while the round ending music got stuck in a loop, with no map change coming. (I'm sure you've seen this at least once before; it stays that way until more players join.) I then added bots back in, got another perfect in the following round, and the round after that, Akuma appeared (overruling my intended boss choice in the process).

Christian Brutal Sniper's main fire can get "broken" at times; I had one round where, for a while, my "attack" was completely silent and did nothing to other players (even when I asked one of them to stand still in front of me). The problem seemed to occur after I used up the arrows for my rage, and the problem went away after I reached max rage again, so I'm guessing the rage has something to do with it.

The Regeneration and Drain Runes are absolute abominations of balance--especially the Regeneration Rune. Among other things, I saw a player who didn't even have to try to avoid getting sucked in by Hyper Storm H simply because the Drain Rune allowed him to heal faster than Hyper Storm could damage him. Even worse, I personally found out that Super Macho Man is almost totally helpless against a survivor with a Regeneration Rune due to the lengthy charge time needed for his attacks. And before you say that I was just playing badly, let me point out that my regenerating opponent (a Support) that round was not exactly displaying pro dodging skills; there were even extended periods of time when he stood still while I circled around him trying to attack (and he generally failed to keep me in his line of fire while standing there), and even with such an easy target, I still couldn't damage him fast enough to overcome the regeneration. The only reason I eventually did KO him was that I got one more rage opportunity when I was down to my last couple hundred HP--and even then, a better player probably would have just used the Exit unit to avoid the rage.

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Projects & Creative / Re: Stardust's Workshop (The Saxton Hale Rebirth ++ domain)

« on: May 06, 2014, 02:21:02 AM »

^You can edit your own music files if you like the old theme that much. Personally, I'd much rather have the Ninja Gaiden music, thank you very much.

In other news, this thread is the only place I've even heard that there was an argument. I know nothing about what has been going on, so PLEASE do not ask me (or other innocent players) to take sides. I fully support Saxton R++, but in this matter, I am just a bystander--nothing more.

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Projects & Creative / Re: Stardust's Workshop (The Saxton Hale Rebirth ++ domain)

« on: May 03, 2014, 09:34:02 AM »

So, I did get to play this new version for a while today before it broke everyone's internet connections. It looks promising for the most part; the classes fill their unique roles fairly well, and I like the new boss ideas for the most part. (Turning Ra Thor into a duo seems a bit strange, but I haven't actually seen him yet, so I'll reserve judgment.)

That said, there are a couple things I noticed in the short time I got to play:

It's difficult for Supporters and Healers to tell exactly who needs their help the most in the heat of battle. Yes, people can scream "Medic!" if they need health, but let's face it: plenty of people are going to spam that call even when they don't really need healing just to be obnoxious, so it's not as reliable an indicator for the medic as it should be. And, of course, there's no way whatsoever for a Supporter to tell how many W Tanks or weapons his teammate has; giving stuff to the wrong teammate isn't as much of a waste for him as it is for the Healer, but it's still annoying that there's no way to make the judgment call for yourself.

Super Macho Man getting up to 5 lives seems excessive. Even assuming that his overall offensive power is lowered to compensate, it just causes the match to drag on and on and on (especially since you have to wait through the count every time he gets knocked down). I can understand that cutting down on the number of lives too much would make it difficult to balance the button-mashing recovery mechanic, but as he is now, I just feel that he slows the pace of the game too much.

Suggestions for Super Macho Man:

-Make Super Macho Man recover less health each time he gets up from a knockdown, just like in the actual games.
-Add a round mechanic (basically a timer) to strike a balance between making the button-mashing recovery a meaningful challenge and still allowing the survivors to defeat him early if they're aggressive enough. Super Macho Man would still be able to get up from as many as 4 or 5 knockdowns, but if he gets knocked down 3 times in a single round, he's automatically TKO'ed, with no chance to recover. You can decide whether or not you'd want to limit the number of rounds and force a winner to be chosen by decision if both sides are still standing at the end.



On an side note, I decided to actually read through the first post to see what information could be gleaned from it. About those Credits...

If I missed someone, please tell me so I add your name !

I know people may generally know me as "that guy who made Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale," but that's not actually a name. But then, it's only a minor contribution anyway, I guess...