MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)

[Bikdark]

Was talking stuff over Skype, here's another idea we came up with:

-No longer blasts projectiles away.
-Using Leaf Shield doesn't cost ammo immediately.
-Ammo drains while active.
-While the shield is up, the weapon's ammo becomes an extension to your health.
-You cannot pick up items while active.

A bunch of thoughts I have after reading these points. I apologize for disorganization and shitty capitalization.

If by extension of my own health, you mean doom/quake styled armor that takes away a portion of the damage, I personally believe such a design would be more thematically suited toward a different shield weapon, especially one that can more easily communicate such a foreign concept... Which would be junk shield, because that is literally how this quake style armor works.

However, if you mean straight up gaining 30 hp out of nowhere... Be careful. Plant barrier has a problem with people simply running around with it on and not dying, munching hp and ammo. Leaf will have a similar problem regarding this, despite not allowing pickups due to the instant hp gain. It follows the design philosophy of making similar weapons stat changes of eachother, but does Leaf really need to act like this? Was the possibility of deflection/repulsion completely explored? How about battle network or short-lived but rapid shields? If this is the end-all after going through many iterations, it isn't TERRIBLE, but it just seems so funky that Leaf would act like this. Thematically, it should offer no physical protection BECAUSE ITS FUCKING LEAVES, so it pushes things away instead using some... naruto leaf jutsu bullshit idk man.

I'm quite confused by the ammo changes. Doesn't use ammo... but it uses ammo? Is ammo lost when shot? Neat idea, to be honest, but I truly feel like this would be suited to something else. Hell, I could vouch for Water shield using this effect more than i could Leaf shield.

What are the goals of this new leaf shield? What is trying to be accomplished and how will map makers determine whether or not to put this in their map instead of say, plant barrier? Treat this shit like a new League of Legends rework, try and sell it to us!

TL;DR we might need more clarification on the exact machinations of leaf shield. As it stands though, it seems like leaf something needs something more thematically fitting. Also read the couple questions above kthx

[BiscuitSlash]

If we're going to tamper with or rework Leaf Shield, then it should be done with other shield weapons in mind. Remember, why are current Leaf Shield and all the new Leaf Shield concepts different from its original MM2 counterpart? Two reasons. Not all that great in a game of this genre, and not enough diversity between the shield weapons.

The first one there is obvious, but the second one needs attention. Look at the current shield weapons and what they do:

Leaf Shield - Ongoing barrier that protects you from most attacks, but useless against buster, fire and cutting weapons. Can be thrown for an extra attack.
Skull Barrier - Lets you take no damage from the next hit. Can be used with other weapons.
Star Crash - Melee weapon. Can be thrown. Also not a shield of any sort. :l
Plant Barrier - Doesn't protect from direct damage but heals the user. Can be thrown for an extra attack.
Mirror Buster - Protects the player from an incoming attack from the front, firing a projectile that increases in power depending on how strong the opposing attack was.
Junk Shield - Reduces the damage you take and can finish as a projectile? Honestly I still haven't figured this one out.
Jewel Satellite - Protects the player from a few attacks, with each occurrence firing a projectile.

For the most part there's a good amount of diversity between them, but if we're going to redo Leaf Shield, which essentially means making a new shield weapon, we need to make sure it isn't too similar to other shield weapons and isn't too dissimilar to it's original, as well as ideally filling in a gap since that would create a more interesting weapon to use.

Current Leaf Shield fills a gap pretty well to be honest. It's the best shield weapon for when you want to get to places (whether it be finding ammo or weapons, or evading is required). The thing that balances it is that being in enemy sight for too long can get you killed and that if you aren't searching for players then you aren't scoring frags.

[Russel]

The thoughts on the Leaf Shield rework I mentioned were more like a BN-style HP Barrier where it has a set amount of health that it can tank, where the amount of ammo left shows how much health the shield has.
Ammo also gradually drains while its active and players can't pick up ammo to keep people from using it forever.

The wording was just jank.


I'm personally fond of the healing shield idea since it's thematically similar to Plant Barrier.

What are the goals of this new leaf shield? What is trying to be accomplished and how will map makers determine whether or not to put this in their map instead of say, plant barrier? Treat this shit like a new League of Legends rework, try and sell it to us!

I was putting forth what a few randos and I discussed in a larger group chat. That was not what we decided within the development team to do with the shield.
Additionally, if anyone was going to try and sell you the new shield, it certainly wouldn't be me as public relations are probably my weakest point [as evidenced by the poor wording on my shield proposal summary.]

[Orange juice :l]

When I think "shield made of leaves", I think something that comes out slowly and cushions incoming projectiles with layers of soft material. Now perhaps this can't compete with Skull Barrier if sticking to theme, but then again SB sort of "has it all" when it comes to shields- nigh instant use and total invincibility. To this end I would suggest SB could be "shattered" if it takes too much damage, meanwhile Leaf Shield would be a "softer" SB that uses ammo both over time and when hit; while active, damage taken is mitigated (not blocked entirely) depending on ammo remaining. To prevent stalling, deactivating would consume extra ammo and ammo can't be collected while active.

[Bikdark]

What are the goals of this new leaf shield? What is trying to be accomplished and how will map makers determine whether or not to put this in their map instead of say, plant barrier? Treat this shit like a new League of Legends rework, try and sell it to us!

I was putting forth what a few randos and I discussed in a larger group chat. That was not what we decided within the development team to do with the shield.
Additionally, if anyone was going to try and sell you the new shield, it certainly wouldn't be me as public relations are probably my weakest point [as evidenced by the poor wording on my shield proposal summary.]

...?

Do not propose something until you know what the point of it is. Now that I know that even YOU don't know what this new Leaf Shield is supposed to do, I am fully against this new iteration. You need to be asking yourself "what's the point?" and "what am I even trying to accomplish?" multiple times during the development process of a weapon, or your ideas might as well be thrown out the window. Come back with a refined, well-thought out plan of what you want Leaf Shield to be instead of something half-assed.

[Gumballtoid]

Perhaps I could better articulate it? I was a part of the discussion myself.

The idea behind this new Leaf Shield is comparable to the Mana Shield skills seen in other games, where it absorbs damage and drains MP rather than HP. While putting the shield up has little or no ammo cost, taking damage will deplete it. To prevent infinite use of the shield, ammo will also slowly drain over time. Players cannot pick up items while the shield is up, so to recover any lost health or ammo or pick up that oh-so-coveted weapon, the shield will have to be thrown away, which will most likely have a small ammo cost. Lastly, the shield will not protect the player against environmental hazards such as fire traps, count bombs, force beams, and crushers.

I can see a few uses for this weapon, the foremost being an escape tool in LMS or Duel. Since the projectile itself is also fairly strong, it would probably make an effective offensive tool if the need arose, such as in a Deathmatch setting.

The only thing I'm unsure of is whether or not the weapon's weaknesses (fire, blades, busters) will still be effective. I would think not, considering the weapon itself would be on the squishier side at this point.

[BiscuitSlash]

It seems like a good idea for the most part, but my question is how often will people want to use it? It seems decent as a run away utility, but that inability to pick up health and weapons will probably discourage people from switching to it and using it. Kinda seems like current Leaf Shield does the job better.

Still, does seem like it's worth considering. "Will people actually want to bother using this" should always be taken into account though, which is why Flash Stopper is almost never used.

Also I'd like to see Star Crash up for a future debate.

[Magnet Dood]

I'm not really sure on this one. It honestly sounds like a worse Skull Barrier as it stands- SB lets you pick up items while you're running around with it and protects you from most environmental hazards. Not only does this new concept drain continuously like Skull does, it also loses more power when you're hit using it. The attack option is nice, but the projectile's already pretty slow and isn't entirely useful.

Personally, I think the concept would work better with a fatigue bar, like Bubble Man has when he's swimming. If it's left up for too long, something like a counter or whatever shows up on the ammo bar until the weapon is automatically thrown away for you. That way you take out the draining function and leave it purely as a damage sponge, which works a lot better IMO.

If you were to ask me, I'd prefer Leaf Shield to be more of a "attack by throwing" shield, since that was what it mainly served as in MM2. While this completely counterproductive to what a shield's supposed to do, I think the concept could work as a sort of quick-block shield, where you throw it up to block an initial barrage from one of your enemies, and then move forward to toss the shield at them. I think the move-lock aspect could be implemented if you put in a fatigue bar as well- once you put it up, the counter starts going down until you automatically throw it. Either of these ideas would help to differentiate it from current shields in the game, though, so I'm in support of them.

[Gumballtoid]

I think Mana Leaves lends itself to the quick block idea pretty well. Since the projectile is fairly strong, you can absorb whatever damage is being done to you and then return it to the sender.

Though, the fatigue bar similar to Mirror Buster is not a bad take on it either. That should also be considered.

Do keep in mind that Skull Barrier is being changed as well. In what fashion, I do not recall, but even so, that has been confirmed.

[Dr. Freeman]

With the changes put in V5, you put Skull Barrier up, and it protects you from one hit from any projectile, in which the shield breaks and there's some sort of delay before you can put it up again. It's also the only shield where after you put it up, you can switch off to other weapons and do other things. Given that it only protects you from one hit from anything, it's good for tanking powerful weapons such as Hard Knuckle, but rapid fire weapons such as Needle Cannon or Yamato Spear will tear right through it in a second and leave you open for the rest of the rapid fire shots.

i think that's a decentish way to explain it.