Post your ideas regarding balance

[Eruanna]

I would like people to post their ideas here regarding how and what should be changed regarding balance. Preferably in a simple and organized, easy to understand format.

I've created a template here to help guide the process along. Using the template is not required, but would definitely help me a lot.

Please base your ideas on b2v9, the latest current official version of GvH.

If nothing should change on any line of this template, or you don't have any idea, feel free to simply omit it. As I've stated, this is mostly to help you guide the thought process along.

Lastly - two more things. At the end of your post, please include a summary of the total "effect" you are trying to achieve (what problems are you trying to solve?) - and also, when making the list, try and keep the list itself balanced too. (i.e. if you want to change every single class, hopefully you have a damn good reason why)

Please remember not all ideas will be accepted. This is just to get a general idea of things to focus on.

Maps
What maps should be changed? Feel free to include ideas such as extra corridors, widening/narrowing of hallways, texture changes, etc. Please focus on balance issues when suggesting map changes, as that is the purpose of this thread. Also note that some maps have been updated since v2b9 - if you strike on one of these maps your proposal will be subject to much heavier review (as the previous changes may affect your proposal differently).

Marines
General Thoughts: (consider ammo availability vs consumption, health, armor, defenses, vulnerabilities, etc, here)
Grenades:
Dual Pistols:
Riot Gun:
Machine Gun:

Cyborg
General Thoughts:
Flight:
Plasma:

Hunter
General Thoughts:
Default Bow:
Lightning Bow:
Fire Bow:
Ice Bow:

Ghost Busters
General Thoughts:
Default Plasma:
Traps:
Soul Plasma (ex-creeper):
Bone Cannon (ex-jitterskull):
Sonic Echo (ex-sjas):
Blood Spreader (ex-choke):
Ice Fountain (ex-frostbite):

Engineer
General Thoughts:
Nail Gun:
Steam Cannon:
Saw Launcher:



Sjas
General Thoughts:
Normal Scream:
Reflective Defense:

Jitterskull
General Thoughts:
Charging Attack:

Creeper
General Thoughts:
Direct (melee) attack:
Curse Ball:

Frostbite
General Thoughts:
Charging Attack:
Freezing Wind:

Choke
General Thoughts:
Chomping Attack:
Blood Ball:

[Blox]

Marines

General Thoughts: Can be quite overpowered, if used by someone that can shoot properly that is.

Grenades: Ten grenades can last for a while in TLMS, in TDM; however.. Spamityspamspam? They're very powerful too, which makes spam just worse.

Dual Pistols: They are kinda useless nowadays, back in the day they have been useful. But now.. I don't know what should be done about them. Higher damage perhaps?

Riot Gun: Moderate accuracy, high damage, unlimited range and 50 shots. Lower the ammo to 25? Or increase the amount of tracers, but decrease damage?

Machine Gun: It's useless, upping the damage a bit could help. Or just give it some more tracers. I don't know, since I can't see what it can be used for.

Cyborg

General Thoughts: Very overpowered, especially against Choke.

Flight: It's okay as is. Maybe increase the 'dive' lenght by a little bit. Though you may want to do a bit of hax. That is, make the cyborg check for whenever it's not on the ground. And lower its' gravity if it has a special item. Just so that 'bunny-jetting' will be less effective.

Plasma: The damage is way too high, at times it gets up to 70 a shot. +STRIFEDAMAGE should balance it a bit. (Or a custom damage randomizer.) Choke's doom. You can't take down a cyborg as a choke. (Unless lucky/VERY cowardly)

Hunter

General Thoughts: A pretty nifty class, though quite annoying when used by them cowardly hitandrun players that only pull out the time. (See: Camping, then running)

Default Bow: Could be a bit faster/stronger, but just a bit. Quite useful against sjas, but other arrows usually outperform it. The magic could do with a BIT bigger range. (Maybe two explosions, one small and strong. Another 'relatively' big and 'relatively' weak.)

Lightning Bow: Quite useful at times, but only if you're lucky to not have your aim suck ATM. I'd agree on being a bit kinder to jitterskull, as two instant arrows on a big target is a bit too cheap. Altfire should be a horizontal lightning though, as the ceiling one is just nightmarish to get right.

Fire Bow: Fine as is, maybe a tiny bit faster. As it's pretty 'weak' compared to the other magical arrows. I have no idea what to do with the altfire.

Ice Bow: I'd say fine, but the altfire is EXTREMELY weak. As everything can jump and avoid it. And even if you hit all the spikes, it'll do 25 damage. Maybe make it a 'freeze ball', like the creeper's. But have a shorter effect, as we're talking about ranged weapons here. (Not melee)

Ghost Busters

General Thoughts: Pretty useless, but at (very rare) times - it's the best class ever.

Default Plasma: Drains ammo up really fast, and doesn't do a lot of damage unless you hit with most of it. Maybe make the 'useammo' flag a "random(0,1)"?

Traps: Quite useful, though useless against cowardly (AKA the majority of) ghouls. Useful against jitterskulls anyway.

Soul Plasma (ex-creeper): Very useful, but it drains ammo too quickly. I'd say make it drain 3-4 ammo per shot. (Not 6) A great tool for picking off Sjas(fags)'.

Bone Cannon (ex-jitterskull): The ultimate weapon you'd strive for.. Unfortunately, it takes a second to fire for the first time, and the ammo usage drains your ammo very quickly. Nothing to change here.

Sonic Echo (ex-sjas): It's very useless, to be honest. The ammo usage doesn't really make it better. Maybe make it spread out radius damage?

Blood Spreader (ex-choke): The ultimate weapon when it comes to NOT wanting to have it. It's blantally useless; low damage, close range. A blood cannon would be cool though. A chargable shot of blood that is. The more you charge it, the more ammo it uses, while at the same time damages more (and flies faster?)..?

Ice Fountain (ex-frostbite): A great tool for picking off sjas, and ghouls in general. It's almost as hard/harder to get than the bone cannon, so it's worth the effort. An alternative would be to make it a frost-air/shard gun. Although this is cool too.

Engineer

General Thoughts: Pretty balanced guy, with one flaw.

Nail Gun: The unholy grail of spam, this piece of damn has unlimited ammo. All while it has hardly visible projectiles, a fast rate of fire AND no reload of any kind. UGH, a reload would be appreciated.

Steam Cannon: Pretty funky and useful, but a bit too powerful if you fire it above the enemies. (DEATH FROM ABOVE) Maybe limit the range of the stuff that falls down?

Saw Launcher: A very nice and balanced weapon, though hardly usable. I don't know, more ammo?



Sjas

General Thoughts: Up-Down zig-zags are faggish, not to mention that they screw with the actor definition. As in, I have multiple times shot a sjas dead-on, yet it didn't hit because they were doing this. Though this can't be fixed. I'd prefer to have this as some sort of 'support' class.

Normal Scream: A bit too powerful, to be honest. If you're experienced with the controls, positions and timings; you're unstoppable. Again, I'd personally prefer having this as some sort of support/chaser class. (Low damage & health, (very) high speed.)

Reflective Defense: Pretty cool, but it bugs up at times. I would recommend to make the 'stop' last a bit less, because if a cyborg is firing right at you; there's a chance that you'll get hit.

Jitterskull

General Thoughts: Pretty funky, though a bit annoying that you don't get anything from the killing delays. (HEALTH NOM) Shotguns and lightning arrows make 'us' RRRASDFRR though.

Charging Attack: The only thing I dislike about it is that damn pushback, and the (at times) absurd range of the insta-kill part.

Creeper

General Thoughts: A pretty nice class, though very annoying in TDM. (When someone ONLY uses it.)

Direct (melee) attack: Not much to say here. Though I'd wonder if the range could be dynamic. (More health = a bit less range)

Curse Ball: The creeper should have a very low mass, so that pretty low values of A_RadiusThrust would make it possible to 'balljump'. Otherwise, I'd say the cursepain should cause A_Gravity(10) to the target.. Unless it's not in the air. (Then apply it if it lands in the time it lasts?) As that would prevent jumping.

Frostbite

General Thoughts: A hard tank, though a bit slow. Painful to kill with some classes (Ghostbuster, engineer) - too easy to kill with others (Marine, cyborg).

Charging Attack: It's okay, except the extremely LAGGY movement it causes. If that wasn't the case, it would be so very fine.

Freezing Wind: It's okay, if not a bit too powerful.

Choke

General Thoughts: Very weak, only good for chasing down fags.. Er, 'cowardly players'. Unless it's one of those (very) rare cases, where you're just ace at everything (and utterly slaughter everything). Too weak against plasma.

[b]Chomping Attack:[/b] Kinda weak if you have any kind of delay. But at the same time a bit too strong in close quarters. Pretty fine by me, but it's kinda annoying without a source of health. As you're going to get QUITE the beating because of the aspect of this attack.

Blood Ball: Funky, but hardly usable. If it was somehow more useful, all while it drained life; it would be cool. Of course, Choke would need regeneration if that was the case.

[/holycrapthattookawhiletowrite]
Quick edit: Made it more readable.

[TERRORsphere]

You're basicly saying every class is overpowered...

Cyborg is fine,
Hunter is fine,
Marine has too many grenades and shotty is more like a freekin' sniper.
Engeinner's nailgun is too weak but spammy.
Ghostbusters traps die too quickly for them to be usable.

Sjas could do with being faster but with less health. This would make them require less shots to kill but even more dangerous.

Creeper... too fast (because of bunny hopping). Way to easy to get kills with being almost invisible. Also ball jumping please...

Jitterskull needs to take less damage from Lightning and shotgun fire when in the cool down state ( if possible).

Frostbite is fine but I agree with the chomp being laggy. If there is another way to do code this attack without lag it would be good.

Choke is almost fine, although it would be nice of the chokeball worked almost like the hunter bow. So you gargle holding down altfire then let go to fire (Being slow of course). The vomit can be used if you hold it for too long or fire too early. Also, eat corpses for health please.

[bluewiz]

Marines
General Thoughts: Near perfect
Grenades: He has too many in TLMS, way too many, I'd recommend giving him 5
Dual Pistols: Maybe make it a little stronger.
Riot Gun: Make it work like the first GvH, it was a lot slower.
Machine Gun: Needs higher fire rate or a bit more damage

Cyborg
General Thoughts: None really
Flight: Maybe give him very slow gas recharge?
Plasma: Its fine.

Hunter
General Thoughts: He used to be worth playing
Default Bow: People never use him, perhaps a bit more damage for regular fire?
Lightning Bow: Make the shot completely straight, but make sure it can only 3-4 hit jitterskulls.
Fire Bow: Perfect, if people complain that they hurt themselves because they want the arrow back, they should just shoot farther instead of directly in front of them like a dumbass.
Ice Bow: Cool I guess... I liked the old 3 shard thing better though.

Ghost Busters
General Thoughts: MEH
Default Plasma: Its fire rate is WAY too fast, revert it to how it used to be.
Traps: Maybe the traps should have a little higher y-axis reach?
Soul Plasma (ex-creeper): It's op. Does too much damage, and traces in every single shot. See: Creeper.
Bone Cannon (ex-jitterskull): Perfect, well earned.
Sonic Echo (ex-sjas): Useless, slow, all it does it bounce of walls and nothing else.
Blood Spreader (ex-choke): Needs to do ALOT more damage.
Ice Fountain (ex-frostbite): Perfect.

Engineer
General Thoughts: Spammy class.
Nail Gun: Make the nails stronger, but put a every 20 shot reload thing.
Steam Cannon: Its allright I guess, but it lags in TDM
Saw Launcher: Make it have a larger range when its on the floor.



Sjas
General Thoughts: OP OP OP
Normal Scream: OP - The reach is way too far, it does way too damage, it should only instant kill when touching the enemy.
Reflective Defense: Perfect.

Jitterskull
General Thoughts: He used to be alot more fun.
Charging Attack: I'd sacrifice 30 of his hp to unnerf his charge, I mean he has to friggin eat his food, why do we keep his charge nerfed?
I'd just keep the same distance of the charge but kill the delay.

Creeper
General Thoughts: Kinda op
Direct (melee) attack: Perfect
Curse Ball: Remove tracer. Just remove it, it just makes you aim worse. Remember to remove Gbusters tracer as well.

Frostbite
General Thoughts: OP
Charging Attack: Too laggy, too fast.
Freezing Wind: One wind projectile can wipe out 50 health, nerf.

Choke
General Thoughts: Used to be perfect.
Chomping Attack: Seriously, revert the damage it used to do, what was the fucking point of making it weaker, it wasn't even OP in endless war.
Blood Ball: What DTD said.

[TERRORsphere]

I seem to disagree with 99% of what Bluewiz has said.

Maybe if you play as random all the time like I then you'll understand the strong points and the weak points more accurately.

Marine
Grenades: He has too many in TLMS, way too many, I'd recommend giving him 5

I agree with this statement.

Marine
Riot Gun: Make it work like the first GvH, it was a lot slower.

LMFAO what?!

Hunter:
Default Bow: People never use him, perhaps a bit more damage for regular fire?

I disagree, the bow is really good against chokes and running away.

Sjas:
Normal Scream: OP - The reach is way too far, it does way too damage, it should only instant kill when touching the enemy.

I don't belive you ever play as Sjas. So this statement can be ignored.

Creeper:
Curse Ball: Remove tracer. Just remove it, it just makes you aim worse. Remember to remove Gbusters tracer as well.

It helps me aim...

[CarThief]

Lets see... This'll be fun.

(click to show/hide)

Maps
Uh, no comment, yet.

Marines
General Thoughts: Most annoying enemy in the game, cannot dodge its attacks, cannot be save from afar NOR up close, due to his long-range riotgun that has the capability to one-hit a Creeper.
Grenades: As an Jitterskull player mostly, a quickly aimed charge gets me away from them, however some people may be as unlucky to recieve a grenade bounced from the ceiling to the ground that will then explode instantly. No idea nor recommendations for changes, aside that instant explode trick.
Edit: I also suggest giving marines less grenades in TDM. I mean, they respawn with TEN GRENADES, each grenade capable of one-hitting a ghoul, TEN! (Well, if they're unlucky, atleast. How about 5 or so grenades?)
Dual Pistols: Seems fine, low threat, good versus ghouls close to death, cant take down a healthy one, fortunately.
Riot Gun: Currenty holds position as the most powerfull easy to obtain weapon in the game (one could argue the Bone Cannon is stronger, but you gotta earn it, though). Absolutely requires altering, may it be in the way of it shooting those fastprojectiles, or having more spread. If neither works maybe a tad less damage.
Machine Gun: Not very usefull. Mind you last time it got buffed, it was the most powerfull weapon in the game! So be carefull... A buff will do just fine, but overdoing it repeats the issues of the past.
Edit: Perhaps an accuracy buff? It should prove more usefull that way, and ghouls gotta take more cover, though the damage shouldnt be that extreme however. If it will get altered at all, current damage seems doable though a tad harmless sometimes.

Cyborg
General Thoughts: Fighting them as Jitterskull is quite doable, though the smart ones know how to dodge using their jetpacks, and make for some bothersome enemies that'll tear you apart with plasma in your back, if not carefull. Cant say i think they need a change, though some argue the damage is a tad rediculous, though my response: Its avoidable! Quite easily too, forces ghouls to plan on HOW to approach and kill the Cyborg.
Flight: As has been said, the bunny-hopping-flying is a tad... Long. Fortunately they cannot fire while flying, or i'd be screwed.
Plasma: Personally no complaints nor suggestions. Though any class less... resillient than Jitterskull should be carefull. Though it always relied on raw power to beat back the ghouls coming into his personal space.

Hunter
General Thoughts: To sum it up he's an annoying bastard to fight. From afar, just ONE mistake, (as an Jitterskull atleast, though other classes can pull obvious/bad moves too,) and you're toast, or half-toast/dead. In general he is somewhat powerfull but again, avoidable, aside his lightning attack.
Default Bow: Hmm... Too hard for human players to get frags with, you should see bots destoying people with them though.
Lightning Bow: Versus a Jitterskull, just plain cruel. It forces me to constantly stay on the move, constantly take cover, make unexpected movements, and pull off some rather odd attacks to beat people adapt at using this. Though other classes have the luxury of avoiding it. Would be nice if Jitterskull was more resistant to it, like 1/3 hp per shot. No less, perhaps a little more, but not too much.
Fire Bow: Good against Creepers and targets on the ground that know how to dodge, cant say its overpowered, and its the hunter's only reliable anti-creeper tool.
Ice Bow: Quite powerfull, but avoidable if played well. At this point its pretty much fine i think.

Ghost Busters
General Thoughts: To me, an easy target, only threatening when equipped with the Soul Plasma, and even a foe worthy of playing devensive against when equipped with the Bone Cannon. Though without those, to me, and probaly other good attacker ghouls, he's an easy target. Just dont run into obvious traps along the way.
Default Plasma: Somewhat weak though not entirely to be underestimaged, i try to avoid it because i dont want to give them the most powerfull weapon they can obtain. Quite avoidable, seems balanced.
Traps: You'd need to be an fool, a reckless attacker, or plain unlucky to be caught in these painfull little things. Seems just fine.
Soul Plasma (ex-creeper): The second strongest gun of the Ghost Buster, hmm... No problems with it so far. Seems fine.
Bone Cannon (ex-jitterskull): As long as you avoid the few shots he has and never give him time to recharge, he's toast! Its an powerfull weapon with a powerfull drawback. Good!
Sonic Echo (ex-sjas): Might need more speed or something else to buff it up. Currently, its quite useless in open spaces. Though it can bounce around and hurt stuff decently in small places.
Blood Spreader (ex-choke): I've heard it was quite decent but it is rather short ranged, and ghouls love to eat humans effortlessly in short range of them. It kinda defeats the purpose.
Ice Fountain (ex-frostbite): Short ranged but merely in distance but not Z(up and down) levels. Sometimes usefull. If it doesnt help out atleast he can ditch the upgrade.

Engineer
General Thoughts: No problems with this guy except the Steam Cannon spamming in TDM and the likes. Quite balanced.
Nail Gun: People say it needs a reload, or something. Hmm... No idea, im quite neutral about it.
Steam Cannon: Ah, the nearly unavoidable damage dealing attack that could hit an entire street in a single go... I'd say the weapon is fine and limited in general but should have limited/less ammo in TDM, if you ask me.
Saw Launcher: Deals good damage, but its really rare for anyone to hit someone with it. Suppose its quite balanced due to its low hit rate. And ideal for some traps for chasing ghouls, or teleports... Has strategic uses in TLMS, probaly doesnt need altering.



Sjas
General Thoughts: Ah, the primairy attacker of the Ghoul team, easy to use, easy to kill with, and not too difficult to kill if you got unavoidable weapons.
Normal Scream: People say its overpowered. Cutman said he would nerf the radius slightly back in the day. I suppose that could still be done, its sometimes rediculous from how far people die to its scream, its fairly fast as well.
Reflective Defense: Considering its not an attack, and rather situational... Cant say it needs any altering, seems fine.

Jitterskull
General Thoughts: Ah, my favourite class. Admittedly he's next to Sjas in raw power, sometimes i get more frags then the Sjas users!
Charging Attack: Under the control of an expert i suppose it could destroy half the human team before dieing itself. It has been whacked by the nerfhammer atleast twice now, though the rare few good Jitterskull players still can kick ass. Hmm... I'd say its quite powerfull, but any further nerfs would make it probaly useless! Tricky...

Creeper
General Thoughts: When playing i ussually see them as an obstacle (quite litterally sometimes!), and they dont have enough power and resources to contribute effeciently in TDM, where they take longer to kill with, other classes prevail with brute force or sheer numbers and speed.
Direct (melee) attack: Sometimes feels inaccurate, i think. Been ages since i've tried or even used one, however. Maybe needs more accuracy or longer time the attack can kill people before the hands lower.
Curse Ball: Seems fair. A suggestion i do have is for the Creeper to regain a curse ball after killing a human. Often they are out of balls as they need all they can get to kill their target. And they're an easy target untill they can hide from the humans (there is no escape with the Creeper's slow, slow movement speed).

Frostbite
General Thoughts: The only class to (assumably) withstand an full Ice Arrow hit... Hmm...
Charging Attack: Seems just fine, doesnt instakill but deals about 70 damage, either killing them or making them easy prey for the Freezing Wind or other ghouls. People often use the Freezing Wind where this attack would have been more usefull. Seems quite balanced.
Freezing Wind: A small burst can take out a single human if he repeatedly gets hit, though ussually they escape or the area isnt a small cramped room or hallway. Seems all fair, i guess.

Choke
General Thoughts: Hmm... The only class that can sneak up to people like me without being noticed. Not an great attacker though, would have been more better for support, as he can somewhat offer with Bloodballs.
Chomping Attack: Suprisingly decent provided your target isnt an Cyborg. Cyborgs are just a big no-go, no matter what your skill, unless you can catch it by suprise or take it down with a bloodball. Maybe Cyborgs are meant to be their worst enemy, their bane. A Hunter's Ice Arrows can make quick unexpected work of them too. Well, as long as he is effective against non-Cyborgs, the weapon seems fine.
Blood Ball: Considering all the drawbacks just for that one shot at one-hitting that human, its all quite fair.

Well maybe it'll help. Where no change is specifically suggested, i'm fine with the balance of that thing. Though i couldnt resist adding my opinion along with some of the things either, ah well, it has facts in it too.

[Anonymous]

In my general opinion, every class is overpowered, it all depend on you skill.

[TERRORsphere]

Creeper being my best class, I can say I can wipe out an entire team while my team mates die at the start of the game.

I do like the idea of regaining creeper balls after a kill but I still say the speed of the creeper should be reduced ever so slightly.

[bluewiz]

Marine
Riot Gun: Make it work like the first GvH, it was a lot slower.

LMFAO what?!

Try it, its slower.

Sjas:
Normal Scream: OP - The reach is way too far, it does way too damage, it should only instant kill when touching the enemy.

I don't belive you ever play as Sjas. So this statement can be ignored.

I have an easily exploitable flyup/flydown bind that can easily wipe out 5 humans.

Creeper:
Curse Ball: Remove tracer. Just remove it, it just makes you aim worse. Remember to remove Gbusters tracer as well.

It helps me aim...

Well you said we needed to nerf creeper, why not take away the tracer?

[TERRORsphere]

Marine
Riot Gun: Make it work like the first GvH, it was a lot slower.

LMFAO what?!

Try it, its slower.

I wasn't talking about the speed, I was talking about the over 9000 damage autoaim black hole creating massively overpowered holocaust gun.

Creeper:
Curse Ball: Remove tracer. Just remove it, it just makes you aim worse. Remember to remove Gbusters tracer as well.

It helps me aim...

Well you said we needed to nerf creeper, why not take away the tracer?

That's not really nerfing, that's just taking away a preference.

[CarThief]

Seems he's right. Its just a tad slower in the really old versions. Though it honestly does NOT need that little amount of slowness back, like it'll help! It needs a nerf on other things instead.

And the Creeper ball gaining idea in case it is not clear would only give 1 ball, ideal to atleast escape with or try and go for a kill. A speed increase after killing might work too, in any case, the creeper needs something after killing someone, if they have friends nearby, he rarely ever lasts! (Especially ones with explosives...)

Not sure what you're going on about on the Creeper needing less speed, i kinda find it slow already, though if it comes paired with a buff like mentioned above, hmm... Perhaps. Speed is vital for avoiding, fleeing, and even attacking, though. Just look at Sjas if you want to see what speed can do with a good weapon!

[Eruanna]

This topic isn't closed yet, these are just some ideas for adjustments that I have in mind for now.

Marines
Grenades: Possibly reducing the amount of grenades, but this is debatable. Will require more discussion.
Dual Pistols: Possible slight increase in damage
Riot Gun: Is, as of now, nerfed on the SVN. Everyone universally seems to  agree that it needs to be slightly reduced. The spread has been increased and the damage is randomly slightly weaker (it is now random(7,8)*random(1,3))
Machine Gun: Possible slight increase in damage

Cyborg
Plasma: May slightly decrease the damage, but this will require more debate

Hunter
Default Bow: May slightly increase the damage

Ghost Busters
General Thoughts: All around ammo seems to be this guy's biggest bane. I might double the ammo amount to 200.
Soul Plasma (ex-creeper): Debating this one
Bone Cannon (ex-jitterskull): Since this seems to be the most balanced weapon in GB's arsenal and not many people are complaining of its ammo consumption, its ammo usage will scale with any ammo change this class gets (so you will run out of ammo just as quickly as before).
Sonic Echo (ex-sjas): Debating this one
Blood Spreader (ex-choke): Debating this one

Engineer
Nail Gun: I really hate the idea of a reload, but we might do this. However, I will need sprites on the weapon in order to do any effective reload with this. I could also just do a simple offset toward the edge of the screen however that will be a short reload and there might not be any real gain associated with that.



Sjas
General Thoughts: Personally, I don't find the Sjas as easy to play as some people do. But the people who can play them do massively well with them. This class will also be under debate.

Jitterskull
Charging Attack: I'll load up GVHv2b7 and see what the delay was after charging - but I'm going to probably set it to a value somewhere in between from now and then. Again, debatable. This is a real touchy class with regards to changes in balance, in my opinion, since it is in fact so powerful.

Creeper
Curse Ball: The homing ability is a trademark of the class, so it should not be removed, in my opinion. But if it is too powerful, it can still be subjected to other adjustments.

Frostbite
Charging Attack: I am definitely going to look at this and try and redo the same thing as done here to try to be lag free.
Freezing Wind: Since the effect is slow moving and easy to avoid, I won't be touching this for now.

Choke
Chomping Attack: One person proposed an idea of making the choke regain a bit of health if he successfully chomps a human. This might be something that will push it up from being the weakest of ghouls, even if it is only a very small amount. I'd like to see this idea discussed a bit before any decision is made on it though.

[CarThief]

Suppose i'll post my thoughts on the proposed changes.

Marines
Grenades: While i rarely ever had a problem with grenades as Jitterskull, i suppse a number like 6/8 works. The grenades are alot more problematic in TDM though, i'd suggest making the number in TDM like around the half of the number thats going to be used. It might be as easy as running a script in the Marine's spawn state, and then never running it again.
Dual Pistols: Doesnt look like it needs that damage increase, it will be the marine's most accurate weapon and the ghouls cant even look at them without getting hurt fairly much then! Old pistol damage seems fine for a weapon to fall back on or snipe ghouls with.
Riot Gun: Ah, suppose i agree on this blasted thing finnaly getting its well-deserved nerf.
Machine Gun: Hmm... Hope the damage increase isnt too servere, once Cutman buffed it, and well, you know... Ouch...

Cyborg
Plasma: Perhaps... Though it should still be enough to consider not to be too reckless in invading his personal space, i guess?

Hunter
Default Bow: No-one ever did like that thing. Maybe it'll help. Dont make it too effective though, it is without running speed reducement after all! Dont want an repeat of the super fast hit'n'run hunter's goin' around.
Oh, ever considered the lightning arrow reduction vs Jitterskull? I mean, that's just plain cruel... They just cant avoid it.

Ghost Busters
General Thoughts: Needs testing, i'd say. Give it a go online with some reliable people perhaps. I wouldnt mind helping out either, i'd love to see how much of an easy target aspect of theirs has changed.
Soul Plasma (ex-creeper): Also needs testing. Its rather powerfull, make sure the ammo cost is worth it.
Bone Cannon (ex-jitterskull): Seems fine if it'll eat as much ammo to always cost 4/5 shots (forgot what one).
Sonic Echo (ex-sjas): I'd still say it can use a slight buff.
Blood Spreader (ex-choke): Utterly useless, thus could use a buff. I'll be suprised if a buff can actually make it alot more powerfull.

Engineer
Nail Gun: Hmm... I dont think there are any reload sprites, having it lower to the bottom, make some noise, maybe twitch a bit, seems all just fine. Doesnt really have to be that short either if doing so, if you ask me. No idea about when it should reload though.

Sjas
General Thoughts: Well, some people still suggest a slightly decreased radius of his scream attack. Suppose it doesnt seem too harmfull to do so.

Jitterskull
Charging Attack: Hmm... Wont that buff it? Personally it seems rather fine to me. Jitterskull was always a tad slow, thus easy to run from on large open area's, though getting past one was trickier when cornered.

Creeper
Curse Ball: Homing ability...? Do you mean autoaim? Dont think that ever was a problem if so, its rather costfull anyway, those Creeper balls. Invaluable for attacking.

Frostbite
Charging Attack: Seems fine, i guess. Though it never lagged me, but is rather difficult to work with for people who think it works like a Jitterskull.
Freezing Wind: I wouldnt say it needs any change either, anyway.

Choke
Chomping Attack: Either by attacking or by killing, either way works, because he has to get really close to someone, he's simply bound to get hurt because of it, so he'll need it. Not like he has fancy mid-air evasion tactics, can make sudden lounges forward, or anything fancy. Ah, atleast he's a silent mover... :P

[Anonymous]

I have some suggestions for the maps:

just in general, the majority of the brightly colored maps should be darker and more atmospheric, so as to regain some of the original feel of Ghoul's Forest.

Just in general, make it so that there are less spots available to camp from or set traps from. It's hard to describe, but just in general I see human players camping in one area of an entire map just setting up traps, using the claustrophobic areas as funnels. Makes it difficult to operate at all as the ghoul team.

[Wartorn]

Marines
Grenades: I honestly think an overall radius reduction would be nice. Not too much but enough to where players don't use it as a crutch.
Dual Pistols: Seems alright.
Riot Gun: Is fine in the SVN version I played.
Machine Gun: a little bit more damage maybe but slow down the player as he fires

Cyborg
Plasma: Projectile speed decrease but size increase to compensate for the damage done by it

Hunter
is awwwwwwiiigghhhtt

Ghost Busters
General Thoughts: +1'ing Eruanna's statements here

Engineer
Nail Gun: Decrease firing rate and maybe give it some sort of reload. I've never used a nailgun as fast as this one in my life time.
Steam Cannon: Radius is holy god damn awful. Definitely think it needs some sort of decrease.



Sjas
General Thoughts: Is perfect. The scream is actually a little harder to work with if you have Unlagged enabled since it seems to only reach directly around the player, not in front (or spawned behind in flight).

Jitterskull
Charging Attack: No real opinion on changing this.

Creeper
Curse Ball: Likewise. Although I will say that it's sort of difficult to hit things with it but that's probably just me.

Frostbite
Charging Attack: Possibly a damage decrease, to even the balance between using breath and biting.
Freezing Wind: S'all good.

Choke
Chomping Attack: Gaining health on a successful kill would be a cool idea.