Post your ideas regarding balance

[Arctic]

Wasn't talking about the lightning arrow in particular. The damage reduction is just a bit... off. It took a whole minute for three other marines and myself to kill one Sjas (the Sjas player was lagging a little bit, but still). Four lightning arrows for a Jitterskull/Sjas may seem balanced 1vs1, but in a match with four players on each team or even more, balance will tip over into the Ghouls' favor completely. Also, lightning arrows are sort of a skilled player's last resort (not counting lucky ice shots) when a full-health Creeper is approaching them. If the player using the Creeper at that time isn't an idiot, he'll make sure he kills the hunter before he's able to fire the shot, or simply flees out of sight.

I've played a couple of v3b1 games on both European and American servers. 90% of human players consists of Marines constantly chucking grenades and dog-piling static Jitterskulls with riot, and winning. x/

Anyway, enough ranting and on to the supportive critique, lol. With quite a bit, but sadly not enough knowledge from v3b1 (stupid Oblacek server), I'd say:

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Marine
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One close up shot takes down half of a Jitterskull's hp. One mistake with two marines close by (or simply kill a player) and you're dead. x_x Wouldn't really know how to balance this myself (yet). Perhaps make the spread 1,5-2 times larger. It's meant for close combat, not for killing Creepers at long range.
Also, a max of 5 grenades and waaay more damage to self (like maybe 40-50) would surely tone down the nuclear holocaust that is GvH lately.

(Only downside: Ammar will then be rendered unable to play marine. ;P )


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Hunter
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Maybe have the normal arrow have some sort of use besides showing off aim, or annoying Ghouls with. (Poke, poke, poke... x) ) It'd also maybe be a good idea to increase the loading time of lightning arrows a bit. (Ouch, electricity hurts his hands!)
Also, four lightning arrow shots for a Jitterskull, eep. If you'd want to tone lightning damage down, I'd say make lightning have to hit Jitterskulls thrice, and boost ice's damage against them. Every class needs a weakness.


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Cyborg
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Near perfect. Only thing bugging me is the insane amount of damage one plasma ball -can- do. Sometimes they do 30, sometimes 70 (not kidding). Makes Choke's life hard.
Also, wasn't the charge supposed to make you invulnerable while using it?


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Ghostbuster
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Perfect, keep as is I'd say. (Also, please tell me how to fix invisible traps...?)


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Engineer
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Really nice touch on the nailgun there, waaaay better now. Only one thing: if you aim correctly (not hard to perform), you can cover the entire map in a monsoon of molten lava with about two/three other Engies. It'd be awesome if the range could get toned down just a tad. x)


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Santa
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Snowgun and star (the slow one) damage, nuff said. x_X


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Sjas
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Toning down the scream's damage to non-OHKO is a bit of a harsh punishment for the floating head. So much effort put into a scream, only to get killed right after.

Anyway, lol, I think it should have a high chance (like 80%) of killing instantly, at least when it's dead on close (meaning exactly like in v2b9), only with a slight, tiny decrease in range.
The only thing that annoys me quite a bit sometimes is the duration of the  reflect. It takes sooooo long (even longer than its animation), and can be used nearly constantly (troll-Sjas vs cyborg/ghostbuster).


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Jitterskull
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Keep as is I'd say, almost. Just one thing: increased speed after a kill for one second (like triple speed, only for one second). Getting sort of an asterisk of lightning arrows perforated through you after every kill is quite demotivating. After a miss, sure, that's the Jitter's fault. x)


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Creeper
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Keep as is, along with the ball jump! Though, please don't overdo on its altitude, lmao. They're hard enough to spot as is, in general.
(Also, there's a tiny bug in his pain sound, making it really short while walking. Really easy to fix, though I can't remember how exactly. Something with "global" or something... can't recall.)


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Choke
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I think he be fine now.


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Frostbite
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One thing has been bugging me from day one he entered the arena: a single cloud can kill. If they'd disappear after doing a set amount of damage (30-50 maybe), this'd be fixed in a way humans'd appreciate, and ghouls would barely notice.

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Lastly: would you please be so kind as to ask the host of the Oblacek server to update it and enable spectator chat and votes? It's starting to become even more overshadowed by AOW that way. :P[/size]

[Balrog]

(Only downside: Ammar will then be rendered unable to play marine. ;P )

Ammar can barely play Marine as it is. I'm pretty sure suicide by grenade is universally known as an "Ammar" by now.

But anyway, Marine grenades really just need their range and number toned down to make them less spammable. As it stands a Creeper just looking at a grenade explosion is enough to instagib him.

[CarThief]

So far im aware v3b1 DOES have two-hit kill lightning arrows, what is quite... discouraging. Though the riotgun has been nerfed, though it still 2-hits a Jitterskull with extreme luck, you'll have to do 2 direct, full hits, and it either dies or is left with 2 to 10-ish hp.
Hmm... All i can think of is to make it do less damage to the point of it taking 3 hits on a Jitterskull but perhaps still 2 hits on a Choke or other things with similar slightly hp, aside Frostbite, assuming armor takes off some damage, but still will one-hit a Creeper. Mostly due to Jitterskull's... unwanted breaks in the worst situations.

Santa's snowgun altfire is currently the largest (but removable) problem. It is virtually unavoidable, does HIGH damage, and not to mention the infinite ammo and spammability. Though im sure its already getting nerfed/altered.

Hmm... Cant say much about the Cyborg, they've always been easy to me, i dodge their plasma, and kill them, admittedly its... trickier for other classes. So i cant really judge much about its damage, i'd say avoid it, like the plague, always avoid, hit, and possibily run. Not like he has long-range attacks or explosives.
The Marine aint too bad currently either, so far. Riotguns on v3b1 arent as overpowered damage-wise, everything else is avoidable or limited in range or whatnot, though that grenade trick with the ceiling still exists...

A reasonable Creeper Ball Jump would be REALLY USEFULL! It costs the Creeper vital ammo anyway, so why not?
Jitterskull wont need a buff if you ask me, though lightning arrows are a tad... harsh, anything else isnt too unbearable.

Oblacek really does need an update too. Wouldnt mind if someone convinced the server owner, because v2b9 is HORRIBILY unbalanced, EVEN WORSE when Santa is added in its current state. Getting hard to find reliable, low ping servers with v3 preferabaly without that godamn santa these days.

Hmm... I think you've played the wrong server with the wrong files to see these kind of things happen. Also note that sometimes it looks like the lightning arrows hit their target, it does produce an hit sound/animation/debris, but it does NOT neccesairy actually damage too. Noticed this several times while being shot at, and sometimes shooting. The hitboxes for ghouls (aside Creeper's) tend to be smaller then the picture, actually it is no larger then your regular marine in Doom/Skulltag.

Edit: Ammar's suicides are legendary by now, huh? :P Should see him in dodgeball sometimes, oh how even gravity is against him, hehe... Ah, the countless controls RCON has (oh, anyone know any other fancy settings aside setting sv_gravity, fastweapons, infiniteammo/inventory, thats fun to mess up the game with?).

[Eruanna]

Lastly: would you please be so kind as to ask the host of the Oblacek server to update it and enable spectator chat and votes? It's starting to become even more overshadowed by AOW that way. :P

I do not have any influence over him. You'll have to talk to him yourself.

[Arctic]

Apparently someone else did already.

[CarThief]

Seems ever since Oblacek FINNALY updated, GVH recieved ALOT more people. Only problem is that it uses the stupid lms_spectatorchat settings and votes are disabled except for useless time votes and other useless votes. But atleast it just shows its still very well alive and kicking, attracting old and new players.

Oh, and something somewhat unrelated about cheating;

(click to show/hide)

Just wish someone would ban that hacker that aimbots all the time and wallhacks. Though the admins have an... lazy reputation, if any reads this, take a look at this kal_foxis person or something, it also sometimes changes its name into something starting with n9h or n1h, hmm... forgot mostly.
It'll be obvious by just spectating him.

Oh, and dont ask me to use IRC or anything, aside hearing they're always AFK, i dont use it. :P

Well, considering its still doing well, hope someone updates the damn thing eventually.

[Zocker]

I and Carthief shared some thoughts about the Frostebite and here are some of my ideas referring to him.

Currently he is very stereotypically balanced, since it can be an horrendous foe if you camp in small rooms or a vent but it is also easy as hell to run from him away and prevent any damage at all if you play on big maps.
Neither Frostbite's speed nor his breath are as fast as a human.

While his bite is strong and quick it can be hard to control on all ranges and you must be very good at controlling him to hit a second time in a row to kill a human.

This makes him neither underpowered nor underpowered but somehow a bit unbalanced.

Increasing his speed would make him more useful in open areas but it could also make him too strong since he could evade projectiles easier in addition to his already thick armor. And increasing the range of his bite would only make it less controllable.

So I had the simple idea to change his breath. Instead of slow, inaccurate clouds of death they are now rather a support attack.
They are faster and have a freeze effect that slows humans down and make them easier to be bitten.
But in return they are less damaging and last less long (to keep his range).

This should make the clouds far less fatal in small areas because currently a lot damage comes from the bounced clouds that do high damage and hit humans over and over again.

The more a human gets hit by the clouds the slower he/she will be, down to a minimum of let's say 60% of the original speed.

For example if you encounter a human on Castle Ghoulenstein a Frostbite normally has no chance, the humans will keep running away and shoot him from distance (if it's not a noob).
However with his new breath it will be easier to hit and bite them afterwards. Maybe the armor should go down a bit if the Frosty uses his breath to make him a bit more vulnerable.

Of course all these new variables would need testers and I would volunteer as one of them.

It would also be great if you could add that freeze death from Heretic/Hexen if a human dies because of his breath ^^.

[CarThief]

Ah, that slowing breath would indeed be quite interesting, though i guess the breath should still be a viable (if not slow) means of killing, in case approaching them and getting in range just isnt doable.
The breath idea certainly seems worth trying, i mean, he always has been a bit... Useless, against fast foes and in open areas.

Edit: Humans used to be frozen by the Hunter's Ice Arrows, assuming they where reflected and hit the shooter (or can hurt his allies, too). It was hilarious, but i hear ice statues like those lag the game, but if not, by all means, bring them back! It was awesome!

And some suggestions from recent games i've played (about time there's a good v3b1 server!), Hunter seems to be getting used ALOT lately, like, almost half the team minimally, only due to its lightning arrow, and of course other things to kill other classes with. Lightning arrow itself has no true weakness, as long as you fire at reasonable distance and can dodge stuff, and the amount of damage this does among the hitscan weapons makes it practically the new riotgun.
Perhaps reduce the damage to something 55-62ish and make the recovery time after shooting a tad longer? Or just make it a longer recovery, but worth the damage if it hits, but currently, i'd say its a bit... too usefull.

Oh, and either its that Cyborgs are explicitly designed to destroy Jitterskulls, but some good ones are UNTOUCHABLE when firing and jetpacking around, if it means nothing can kill them in the end, perhaps remove the invulnerability on it. Some say the damage is a little over the top too, depends if the class can avoid it i guess.
Though im guessing a Cyborg that Jetpack spams all the time to avoid EVERYTHING is probaly a little over the top, perhaps alot less fuel or no invulnerability? Now its just a free out of jail ticket, basically. Kinda needs more skill to cheat death with, or luck.

Engineer seems to need a little buff in usefullness however, his nail gun just sucks, aside a lucky close up altfire kill, it just sucks. His other weapons seem to do fine though. So perhaps a buff to make the nailgun a tad more usefull but not as spammy would work, though it already does considerable damage if it does hit.
Either that or perhaps he's well off with having some new defensive things.

Oh, dont forget to alter Santa's snowgun altfire for obvious reasons.

It may just seem anti-human (like usual), coming from me, but powerfull hitscan just proves constantly that when a large enough group of people learn to abuse it, it just gets really annoying. I'd rather have a powerfull thing with an actual weakness to it, but so far neither mentioned things have any significant weakness, if one at all. Its alot more playable then previous versions though, and admittely only a few cyborgs rampage entire ghoul teams in such a way. Still, its about a class's maximum potential rather then the player in it, if you truly want to balance something.

[bluewiz]

Stop nerfing shit, I don't want GvH to be just sticks and stones. I want guns, plasma, etc.

You should take a look at the early version of GvH, its a lot more balanced and more fun than the current one.

Seriously, comparing the early GvH to the current one is basically shows how ruined the wad is now due to terrible suggestions and nerfs. We don't need to fix things that aren't broken.

Unless, if it's BLATANTLY obvious.

@cartheif, you can't expect the jitterskull to be able to kill every other class. Besides, the cyborg has a limited amount of gas and flying makes up for his speed. All you're basically doing is complaining about what a Jitter can't kill.

@people who are working on GvH
Fix santa, just because you guys don't want to use it doesn't mean everyone else will agree. Besides, the effort required to reduce the alt-fire damage can be accomplished by a trained monkey.

Engineer was perfect, why is his nailgun so drastically slow?! Either make it stronger or faster.

GvH40 - Is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too big! It can easily be 3 maps, maybe even 5.

Eru... since you aren't really into ST anymore... maybe GvH should be passed on to a group of people? [Assuming if you aren't really as active]

[CarThief]

I assume you read incorrectly, it was not specifically about Jitter vs Cyborg only, though the fuel cost is quite low, for a charge in any desired direction, and invulnerability frames.
I mean, i dont mind if humans can easily take out a ghoul, as the ghouls can do so to humans, but on a range, it has to be somewhat balanced, ghouls dont have instakill ranged attacks (aside Choke's obvious bloodball, with even more obvious drawbacks).

I suppose earlier versions seem more fun to you because i dare say as a human you had more power to wield at less cost or skill requirement. Though it was hardly fair on the ghouls back then when say, the lightning arrows INSTAKILLED an ghoul. Though they still do, only to Creepers now, fortunately.

Yes, nailgun does need an buff (i dont think the previous version of it had so much damage per projectile as it has now, was it hard to dodge, all that nailgun spam?). And indeed anyone could improve Santa's snowgun, heck, they could just ask for what should be done and have any random person make the changes, test it, and post the code on the place of the request.

Edit: Quite my suggestion to have it to a group of people instead of one person too, considering it wont be too related to a single person's ideals and preferences in such a case.

[bluewiz]

I played the early version of gvh with a bunch of people a while ago. It was balanced to BOTH sides. Since well, ghouls are stronger as well. (Jitt - no breaks during attacks, -sjas faster and can insta kill -creeper creeper)

The thing is, classes are supposed to take specific classes out.

EX... Marine > Creeper
 Creeper > Cyborg
 Cyborg > Jitterskull
 JitterSkull > hunter
 hunter > sjas

etc etc etc

[CarThief]

Perhaps, but if you're talking about some classes being such a threat to another class that they would lose the fight 65% of the time, that's hardly ever happening with all-rounded classes like Hunter and his hitscan, creeper deterrent, and projectile instakiller. And possibily the same for the Marine's Riotgun being able to take out anything decently, and have easy grenade acces, though it was somehow a tad slower back then.

I suppose its not bad having a pokemon-style weakness against one class, but its currently not there and my observations are often that these classes have no such weaknesses. Meh, back in first few beta's everything raped everything, stuff was yet to be balanced, of course the worst part it was humans raped equally to ghouls - on a distance!

From my observations, you could say humans lose alot, but i also noticed a few humans standing out, using their class to the max. Now, imagine uh... 10 Hunters with that said extreme skill at raping with lightning arrow - even VS Creepers, it would be annoying, unplayable, anything but fun. Most humans just tend to suck a little and have a higher skill requirement at dodging ghouls.
Unfortunately i dont see much of a solution to this situation, other then balancing the classes according to how much one would, uh, rape with it. :P
Why, even Jitterskull got a nerf due to such, although mostly due to fairly known Jitterrape issue.
Thats basically what my reasons of nerfing/buffing are posted for.

If you really want a pokemon-style weakness factor though, i'd say use the damagefactor element in DECORATE coding, and make some attacks less effective on some classes.

Edit: Thinking again... Currently its based on everything vs everything, being a tad better in smaller games, why, it would probaly be useless to even try if such a weakness system was applied then, when there's only 1 ghoul left against 1 human. Hmm... The battle would already have been decided.

[bluewiz]

I remember someone made an armor patch or something, that made things pretty balanced imo. Maybe some servs should use it.

[Mobius]

The best balanced GVH was post-CD release when Engineer was introduced. The only disagreeable shit was riotgun and Engineer's nailgun. Listening to the general population, which most suck at GVH to begin with, is a terrible idea.

[bluewiz]

Listening to the general population, which most suck at GVH to begin with, is a terrible idea.

Agreed X100, look at what these dumbass suggestions have done.