The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5

[ThaMarine]

Creepers are perfectly balanced.

They were balanced until this Beta in which, for some reason you can't hear and you can't see because of darkened levels.

Ghostbuster is slightly underpowered.

:O

[CutmanMike]

Cyborg is balanced (alias djump "+altattack;wait 1;-altattack;wait 2;+altattack;wait 1;-altattack" FTW!! makes dodging a lot easier).

That sounds handy. I may as well just make it so you can press a button to execute it, I mean I don't think people are going to get used to double tapping any time soon.

[Frits]

Damnit don't touch the hunter's speed. Unlike the cyborg/marine/gb. He doesn't have a way to keep ghouls at a distance.

[CarThief]

I truly dont see how a marine could force them back. A full hp ghoul could just smash trough them and try to kill them before being killed. Well, except creeper. He doesnt instant kill non-creepers, either, with a single attack 95% of the time.

Hmm... Ghostbuster is pretty much screwed in some situations too, but he just lacks decent firepower compared to other classes, currently.

Personally i would find a speed decrease interesting, you could still bunny-hop away or plain run behind unpassable obstacles, marine speed sounds fine.
Hmm... That is, of course, if the hunter remains usefull without that cowardly hit-and-run(-at-God-speed) tactic. Hunters shouldnt be the perfect all rounder without any weakness at all, seriously.

(And in case missing is assumed as a potential weakness: wrong! More of a matter of skill (or plain bad luck/bad ping/etc), and should not be considered a weakness in the class itself.)
Well, i'd be happy with any changes that gives it an weakness. Any!


Oh, and 150 HP is fine for Jitterskull. He takes hits, alot. Not to mention, he's slow, make use of that to take them down, too. And all human weapons are capable of big damage (except ghostbuster's currently), so it shouldnt be a problem if you're accurate.

[Mobius]

Hunters aren't that strong.

Hunters are better now then they were a version ago. That's saying something.

Jitters aren't that strong.

Bull&#%@

It isn't that jitters have too much health or use their height leverage to quickly scale floor to roofs, but because lots, and lots of maps cater to them. I see some ghoul fans in this thread championing Jitters, but it seems some of you have never experienced a full-on Jitterape. I've seen a 6vs6 to 32vs32 TLMS on Gvh, with the entire ghoul team having 16 or more members and about 60 percent of them is Jitters. Imagine playing in such maps like Wugi Cave (Gvh03), Spire of Fate (Gvh10, though the change has balanced it though), URBAN DECAY (Gvh12, and infamous for jitterape), Post-war technologies (gvh15), Solanid (Gvh18, and another famous example), and The Other Side (Gvh21) with a barrage of six or more jitters all on someone in a very confine space or massive walls they can climb over.

With obstacles in the human's running path, surpassed by Jitters effortlessly, Jitters can take the lead on humans EFFORTLESSLY no matter how skilled someone is. The only way for humans to combat this is through pure meta-game and a good majority goes Cyborg and Ghost buster (the latter being more situational). Most people on the ghoul spectrum resort to metagaming based on maps, which explains the huge majority of a ghoul team going Jitter to begin with (like everyone going creeper for that one enclosed map). It's down right ridiculous nowadays since people made jitterape a trend again.

This comes from a former Jitter player. I gave him up when I realized getting 5 kills two attacks is pretty much cheap mode back in the day. Not to say I can't do the same (or anyone) with other classes, but when I started messing with humans I realized how easy Jitters have it. Their radius reduction is a blessing, but it still has radius to their chump. Let's not forget their charge is very long as well, fast, and causes stun IF you live.. and that stun is enough for another bite.

Being a huge target doesn't mean anything if you really can't be hit.

[TERRORsphere]

Oh, and 150 HP is fine for Jitterskull. He takes hits, alot. Not to mention, he's slow...

The Jitterskull is far from slow. All he has to do is camp behind a wall and then lose like no health at all because the human is dead and all other humans aren't ready.

[Mobius]

Oh, and 150 HP is fine for Jitterskull. He takes hits, alot. Not to mention, he's slow...

The Jitterskull is far from slow. All he has to do is camp behind a wall and then lose like no health at all because the human is dead and all other humans aren't ready.

Don't forget the surrounding humans or humans stacked behind one another.

[CutmanMike]

I think I can mostly agree on the human side on this one. Even Hunters with their buffs cannot out run a team of Jitters, let alone the other classes. I originally intended Jitter to be the skill class of the ghoul side but it really seems that you can dart about like a bitch and aim randomly and you'll take down most of the humans. I am happy to nerf him but I don't know how without ruining it for Jitterfans. Here's ideas I came up with.

Change radius damage to projectile damage. This means no more pushing humans around but you have to be more accurate with his bites, and the damage would be more consistent. This solution would make it so you have to be precise with your charges or the attack will miss.
 Reduce the radius damage even more. Same idea, you just have to be more precise. Would still knock humans about though.
 Reduce charge rate. After a charge you have to wait at least a full second before charging again. This would at least give humans a chance to escape, and jitterskull could still dodge while waiting for the next charge.
 Reduce his HP. He can dodge like a bitch so why not?

More ideas welcome.

[Mobius]

Your first idea is bit excessive. The push was initially our way of escaping them, especially for the jumping humans (like myself).

Your 2nd and 3rd idea is great. Your 4th idea confused me a little. So you have a cool down between bites, but you can still roam about right? Now if that is the case, I am down for it.

[Frits]

Your first idea is bit excessive. The push was initially our way of escaping them, especially for the jumping humans (like myself).

Your 2nd and 3rd idea is great. Your 4th idea confused me a little. So you have a cool down between bites, but you can still roam about right? Now if that is the case, I am down for it.

Meh the push was luck based anyway, no matter how well you time you jump.
FYI the hunter is just a shadow of what he used to be.

[Mobius]

Not so luck base if you were standing still. You get explodededed for standing still.

I rather have a Hunter a shadow of his former self than fire spam. It's pretty funny people call him over powered because NOW you must focus on other weapons while spamming new magic.

You can't fire spam if your attack is set to lightning. Learn to play (not saying it to you, but to those that say he is).

[Possesed]

I think I can mostly agree on the human side on this one.

                                       

[CarThief]

I'd say he's pretty slow compared to what a human can run at if say, they where both in a large flat area. Of course, a good use of enviroment to get around will get you there pretty fast, charging is a more risky form of movement.
Meh, ok not that slow, but capable of being outrunned if the map allows for it. (Altrough most humans just lock themselves up in dead ends, waiting for the ghouls to invade.)

Guess i'll try to make my opinion about Cutman idea's short.
The first suggestion seems interesting, but as long as there are accurate Jitterskulls about in mass, i guess a jitterrape is unavoidable, if that's the plan.

Reducement of the radius would probaly lead to having hell on earth trying to catch an human out in open area's, not too sure if that'll work out.
Having a reduced charge rate seems only good to implement if he can charge like 3-4 times, or so, before having a cooldown. I mean, not all of the charge attacks have to be an directly aimed attack. You'd want to go around a cyborg and hit em where he isnt shooting.
My own suggestion, let him have a pretty decent barrage of attacks, 4-5 or so, but a pretty decent cooldown too, so he'll have to hit and run. (And hopefully a clear indication on when he cant attack!)
More details on idea:

(click to show/hide)

Being more specific on the idea, could a cooldown start once he makes the first charge, once he used enough charges, the other cooldown starts and untill that one has ended, he cannot attack? And the first cooldown should probaly just reset as if nothing had happened when not having reached the limit. Kinda like overheating a weapon.
Thus, should allow for a quick bite, if say, a human was in the way, and then keeps on going and doesnt attack in that meanwhile. Instead of it stacking up and being "WTF?" in the middle of an battle when you cant attack.

(Oh, and the idea only really works well if you can actually move during the cooldown.)

And while dodging works fine, being at the wrong side of a weapon after charging, however, is painfull. A weakness perhaps but as long as it doesnt guarantee death against most humans (on full hp atleast), i'm fine with some HP reducement. (Altrough he was meant to be bulky and take hits, no?)
Hey, i wouldnt mind testing any changes either, if that's ever needed. Hmm... I'd say try the charge limit idea. (And if your worried it'll be spammed, well, thats what the limit is for, hopefully it is capable of being made in acs.)

(And dont forget the hunter either. They're both powerhouses capable of instant kills, dont let only one dominate, it should stay fair. :P)

[Xorpedo]

The only thing i can say after the topic title is:
... - overpowered.

[Mobius]

The only thing i can say after the topic title is:
... - overpowered?

Fixed*

I'd say he's pretty slow compared to what a human can run at if say, they where both in a large flat area. Of course, a good use of enviroment to get around will get you there pretty fast, charging is a more risky form of movement.

With the amount of different terrain and obstacles Jitters can overcome, I think that is REMOTELY FAIR. Especially when said obstacles obstruct the path of a human trying to get away from the Jitter, but no, he is caught between a lamp and a wall and his only way out is the way he came.

A lot of fights resort to humans camping because they have to see where they are running to, but then they lose sight of the enemy and it gets worst (not to say this will stop camping). The goal of a human to kill a jitter is to be as far away as possible or play matador with a slime possibility of getting skimmed. Ever got stunted by a skimmed bite of a jitter? It's enough for the next chump to finish you.

"If you can see them, you're fine. If you can't see him, you're dead." <-- Fighting a Jitter.

Meh, ok not that slow, but capable of being outrunned if the map allows for it. (Altrough most humans just lock themselves up in dead ends, waiting for the ghouls to invade.)

It is funny when that happens. Sometimes some dead ends have walls Jitters can scale over though, but anti-camping is great.

Reducement of the radius would probaly lead to having hell on earth trying to catch an human out in open area's, not too sure if that'll work out.

A small price to pay to minimize the effort of a full blown jitterape. They have the charge speed needed to even evade people with the whole, "teleport here, chump over there," trick people do.

Having a reduced charge rate seems only good to implement if he can charge like 3-4 times, or so, before having a cooldown.

Are you insane? That's enough jitter spam to do about a good third damage to a human team. I am exaggerating a little when I say that. I say a cooldown is fine if the Jitter can still move about. This way he can still keep his evasive movements while not having a team of jitters buttraping everyone.

They're both powerhouses capable of instant kills

How so? Against creepers? or that really cheap fire radius luck shot on a sjas? The ice arrows?

Fire arrow > Creeper
Ice Arrows > Sjas and maybe choke
Ice Arrow > Jitter IF it is dead on.
Grenade > Creeper
Grenade > Only does a good amount of damage to a low flying Sjas
Shotgun > Sjas if you hit on dead center.. but getting that close is suicide a lot of the times.

The only classes I see not having one hit kills on the human fence is Cyborgs and Ghostbusters. Cyborgs need to hit opponents repeatedly with slow moving projectiles (normally 2 to 3 on certain ghouls or more). With lag shield, the projectile itself becomes 0 (I've experienced this myself as a sjas), and Ghostbusters need more (lag shield applied).

Ghouls can one shot anyone. The only exception are Chokes, because the blood ball has a radius (so if it isn't dead center or lag shield, you can live through it). Sjas can kill anyone with enough range (which I think needs a little reduce), creepers can just touch you and you die, and Jitters has already been discussed.

Hunters are fine. I've been seeing a lot of Cyborgs anyway.