What makes a good ctf map?

[ice]

I've been aware of lack of ctf maps and I've seen alot of complaints on some maps due to stuff like weapon placement, weapon choice, lack of difficulty when going to the other base. I've been thinking of doing a ctf map myself (using airman textures AHAHAHAH! but really I found a solution), and Ive been wondering, what DOSE make a good ctf map? Maby new mappers can learn from this topic and impliment this information  into their maps.


I'll start, do not, I repeat do not place power weapons near the bases in easily accessable places, make people work for them, a good example is "edge of dam" power weapons like rolling cutter and ballade cracker require you to go out of your way to get them while weaker items are more easily aquired, also please refrain from adding wind storm, skull barrier, hyper bomb, time stopper, charge kick, centaur flash, flash stopper(?), and in some cases, gravity hold and top spin as they will needlessly draw out matches or just outright break the game, also try to avoid adding eddie as he can and will give those weapons.

also quick question, why isnt spark shock in any ctf maps? It seems to be a pretty good weapon, average speed, weak damage and it makes a very good assist weapon.


as usual, if this already exist or if its in the wrong topic, please lock or move

[TailsMK4]

Spark Shock is in the Clocktower Map. It's opposite the Metal Blade.

For me, do something that makes it stand out from maps already made. I saw a map today that had a center that had pipes shoot out giant flame blasts every ten seconds or something like that. It's in the CSCM map pack, I think. I'll screenshot it next time.

[Korby]

You're thinking of Yamato's map that shot out a TON of Napalm Bombs.

Anyway, keep in mind it doesn't have to be symmetrical if you're good, like Ivory did with Wood Man's revenge, but symmetry is encouraged normally, especially if it can be confusing to get around.

[Shade Guy]

Actually, that's probably Mr.X's CTF map 'Molten Mountain'.

It's in his X Pack.

You know, those levels he made.

I'll stop.

[Myroc]

All CTF maps need symmetry. However, they don't necessarily have to LOOK symmetrical, as Wood Man's Revenge demonstrates. The basic layout of each base is the same, but there's some small tweaks here and there to make each base look unique.

[BiscuitSlash]

I think Woodman's Revenge is a great example of a great CTF map, along with Edge of the dam. They have fun layouts and look really good, but also they have awesome music. Ivory you are an awesome mapper btw

[Ivory]

Thank you, that comment means a lot to me.

Anyways, symmetry is required to make a CTF map work. The Red Team and Blue Team should both be equal. No side should have any sort of base advantage over the other. You can however do what I did. Yes in Wood Man's Revenge both sides are different, but the layout is basically the change. The only differences outside of cosmetics is that the Light Side has a wider right entrance and the Wily side has a wider left entrance. The location of the weapons and pickups are also as close as possible. Now the middle section of Wood Man's Revenge is not symmetrical, yet it still works. I have a safer uphill passage that requires a lot of jumping to get up. The middle section involves jumping over killing water, but it's not platforming heavy. Then you have the Leaf Shield tree side. It's cramped and more dangerous, yet offers leaf shield as a reward for taking it. Each of the three paths have their ups and downs.

Edge of the Dam is more traditional CTF Symmetry. I have a new version that will be included in the MM8BDM update. Hopefully it's final time I have to do any major map changes. Again it comes down to a good layout and symmetry, each side is even to the other. Or in Wood Man's Revenge case, both sides are even, but the layouts are different.

As for weapons. You've already have a good idea of what is not an acceptable CTF weapon. Though I would also add Rush Jet to that list. Avoid it like the plague. E Tanks should also be limited, don't include too many. Health and Ammo pickups should be plentiful, but not too plentiful. Give weapons a risk of running out of ammo.

Now for map size, keep in mind that Wood Man's Revenge is about as small as a CTF map can be while still being good. Despite common belief, Plant Man's stage in MM8BDM is NOT A good map for CTF. It's far too tiny. However you also don't want a map to be too big. Too big makes it confusing to navigate. With that being said, try not to include dozens of ways around a map. It's far too confusing. Edge of the Dam has lots of ways to get around it, yes. It's also very open and the new version of it makes it pretty much impossible not to realize which side you are on. NEVER make a player guess which base they are in, it will only end in disaster.

Overall there are other little tricks of the trade, some of it is best to learn in practice and execution to really understand it. Ultimately it just comes down to practice practice practice. Eventually you learn what makes for a good map by second nature.

[TailsMK4]

I don't think Woodman's Revenge is that good, honestly. Beat is almost a reliance in that level when people go out to the path where the Drill Bomb is. I always go that way because it's the fastest of the three routes. The forest route is way too narrow and the cliff route is quite a climb. Edge of the Dam is a better example, but I think in general the map is a bit too big (although it has been shortened, which was nice).

Regarding Ivory's post, I also support Rush Jet not beening used. I hated using Rush Jet because I do not use the mouse to aim besides while standing still, so it actually only serves as an escape for me and not to fight. Now Beat is a little bit different since you have to jump in a pit to use it. I think that one should be used sparingly since it becomes a big reliance wherever it occurs. That's all I'd be able to say for maps in general, as I do better criticism on a map-to-map basis.

[Nuy]

Saying symmetry is required is basically saying that differences can't be balanced which isn't true by any means. Just my thoughts on that.

[Asd967]

Yeah, Nu, that's right.
...
...
Then everyone joined Wily side because it had a little more better weapons and camp spots.

[Ivory]

The next version of Wood Man's Revenge no longer has Beat, after I got tired of seeing certain people using it to dominate CTF matches.

[ice]

Try to keep the number of paths near 3, in pretty much all of the ctf maps there is always a left, center, and right path, you can also use 2 with a left right path, or even 4 with 2 center ones, also try to keep the map simple.

Dont go overboard with paths, a good example of too many paths is submerged base in the I pack, theres way too many paths the stage is way too big and it is extreamly easy to get lost and it has a overal weird layout.

But also theres another atribute in that map though, if you're happy with the layout and decide to add windows, let out your artistic talant outside, that map is a great example, a reef in the underwater part and in the upper area theres a window showing above the water outside.

________________________________________________________________________
Below this line has NOTHING to do with making a good map but these are some fun ideas

You can make your own props in the maps, like say you decided to make a map with waveman water, you could make a wavebike joe prop that rides around.

Also if the weapon is balanced enough, you can add your own weapons, you could even create a toy factory and make alternate versions of the weapons as toys, knight crush could become a boxing glove with a spring

(I find it ironic that I know so much about mapping yet I cannot make a map to save my life)

[Tesseractal]

You talk about things that have no place in CTF. I violently oppose Eddie being in any CTF map ever. Here's why: Two players that are of the top skill level in the server get the opposing team's flag. Then they stall and wait for team mates to return to flag. During this time, both flagholders compete for Eddie spawns. As more time passes, it becomes more likely they will get a weapon that increases stalling: Mirror Buster, Skull Barrier, Time Stopper, Leaf Shield, Centaur Flash. Then because most maps are abundant in w-tanks, they never risk losing this item. Getting an OHKO weapon also murders power balance, as any fruit can run into a base and drop Hyper Bombs/Atomic Fire/Top Spin when no one else has it. Atomic Fire actually seems fine to be in the game on its own. And yes, this event has happened numerous times, with one of the above weapons going to Celebi, OJ, or DarkAura and then even *I* couldn't get the flag back. It's insanely common and why I loathe playing on MMCTF07 in particular.

Instead, however, here's a post I made addressing X's issues with CTF.

(click to show/hide)

I prefer 1 flag CTF for that reason...except nobody seems to play it. "1)" is just ranting, skip to "2)" for my ideas.

Also, DTD's advice doesn't work.  I've tried it, and when I travel with my team, nobody stays behind to guard our flag and it gets stolen as soon as it is returned, thus we can't score anyways.  To be honest, my big complaint about CTF is that I always get stuck on the team of morons and have to do everything myself (or in larger matches, it's me and one other guy with everybody else busy either picking their noses or switching to the other team because they're winning)

!) Unfortunately. In fact, I literally once *died* on top of a team mate and gave him the flag, and he was also instantly murdered. I have been capable of defense when necessary - I feel if the flagholder stays in the base, and one man stays with him(skill provided) it should be enough. The other team will generally focus on the flagholder too much that you can shoot them in the back (and take the flag if needed). It's unfortunate - if you camp just slightly outside your base, you have guaranteed safety (most are not smart enough to find you- Celebis always throws a wrench in my plans though), but you won't be able to get back to your base before the flag is captured again. So what happens - it's easier to let someone else get the flag, and then defend him. However, if the rest of your team can't get the flag back, you're in a bind. Also, the stalling nature of CTF leads to HUGE problems on maps with eddie, almost so much that I'd say Eddie should never be present in a CTF map, no exceptions. (Wind Storm shows up? Mirror Buster? Centaur Flash? Prepare to be there until timelimit.)

2) Now, you want to stop basecamping in your maps? So far you've done it, and here's how (ignore other ice's complaint, he's got the wrong map): Weapon placement and its relativity to spawns. In Clockwork, when someone kills you the only weapon immediately available after spawning is Gemini Laser. Now let's take Icy Forts, a good map otherwise hindered by weapon placements. Knight Crush and Air Shooter are very close to spawns, so that you can grab them on a direct run to the other side. They're probably the strongest weapons in the map, you have Water Wave and Crash Bombs hidden and Needle, Ice, and Ring on top of high elevations. That's totally backward. In order for offense to work, you need to be able to kill someone and not be immediately killed when they respawn! In CTF05, if someone kills you - when you respawn you have to leave the room to get weapons back, and the powerful flame blast, super arm, etc. are in the center of the map. It works in reverse too - if you can spawnkill everyone, it becomes a crapshoot (see why Ivory removed Top Spin from MMCTF08). Really, only XCTF01 had basecamping problems, with people on top of the flag being able to spam cutter/quick boomerangs and be immune to bombs (the bombs bounced off) although I need to play that one more. (also that's a discussion for your topic) XCTF02's weapon placement is good as well - you have Snake/Firestorm in the immediate area, but otherwise the distance is good. Power Stone here EXTREMELY irritates me because of the fact that it's broken and OHKOs on contact (CMM fixed this in one version, and now it's returned).

My main issue is weapon placement in the CTF Maps, and the new Wind Storm makes MMCTF02 nearly unplayable - you're simply thrown around like a ragdoll.

As for symmetry - I have to go with Yamato on this one. Not perfect mirror symmetry is fine; but the layout of the map needs to be functionally the same. In fact, Savior already does this on Submerged Base because of elec beam spawns - and that's a SINGLE weapon spawn! I'd also agree with pathways- there needs to be more than two, and there needs to be a "separate but connected" - CTF05 is a good example. All the areas are connected, making the map overall feel like a tic-tac-toe grid. CTF05 and 08 are probably the maximum size you want for a CTF map - any larger would promote flag camping, which is very, very, unwanted. ice I feel like you already have a good idea, but other things: I would avoid excessive deathtraps, or "mandatory" deathtraps - Ivory's removed the platforming elements of CTF08 with iteration because people generally fail it. (And I am sad, because I like CTF08) Are you making Tengu Man's stage, ice?

[ice]

I was planning on doing a sky based ctf map with gyro, air, wind, and maby tornadoman tiles (we have 3 water themes, 2 fire theme, 2 ice theme, space theme, and nature theme, I was going to complete the loop with a air theme, we also need a rock theme), but yeah I do have a general idea for tenguman's (granted if I can 8-bitafy the tiles)
And if I ever finish all of my projects, I might make ctf maps based on each of the RMs stages (even though edge of dam is "technicly" based on toadman)

[Alucard]

space theme

...I was gonna ask what this was when I suddenly remembered Snakes in Space.

We need another space-themed CTF map...Maybe have a Space Core in the middle that says "SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE" when you shoot it with Star Crash. :P