[Expansion] Rockman No Constancy - Now Updated for v6b!

[JaxOf7]

Rising sun is a 2HKO with decent speed, refire rate, and ammo.

Tested on line of megamen.
Takes at least 3 and at most 5 to kill.

[Beed28]

Why isn't this on the blog yet? Maybe prehaps when a bugfix version is released, then the blog could be updated to feature this?

[MusashiAA]

I'm gonna have to agree on the negative comments about this.

I was never enticed into using the new weapons because most of them aren't either very varied, different from their original counterparts or even original seeing that they were essentially the special weapons from MM2 modified a bit (you can't expect much from an old romhack). Some of them aren't even in the new maps.

Some maps are bland, and still need work:

AirNC lacks that pesky gimmick AirNoConstancy's stage had in the game (could be executed well if the map is built around it). A thing I noticed is that the two most common weapons are both from RnC: Delay Flame and WIND SLICER. Wind Slicer is understandable, but Delay Flame should be saved for HeatNC.

HeatNC is not only small when compared to its game counterpart, but also bland and lacking in weapons (it enforces pretty much one of three weapons on everyone, no matter where they spawn). The fake floors aren't really much of a gimmick, as they prove to be no handicap at all. It seriously needs an expansion and maybe two more weapons. Also, you would think the loud and high-pitched overlapping notes on the song are funny...they're not: they're tiring and stressing in a map that isn't. The song's pretty repetitive as well.

FlashNC is actually a good map. Varied weaponry (explosive, seeker, rapid, Air S-Wind Slicer), interesting layout. You might want to make Za Warudo a bit more hard to spot and get, and it's also pretty close to dat 2HKO, a large life capsule and a W-Tank to boost.

ClashNC isn't actually bad. Weapons are good, the layout is ok. My main grip is actually how repetitive and monotone the textures are, and the background image is very trippy...why does the landscape seems to be tall instead of wide?. There's also the fact that Rumbling Bang is easy to get, despite it being a very good weapon for DM. Rising Sun is a common weapon :I

BubbleNC doesn't have a bad layout, and it has lots of weapons (lots of RnC weapon as well, WTF? Why not in AirNC?). Finally, I see the gimmick that was supposed to be in AirNC, and it's a one-way corridor :I. Spin Wheel is a common weapon that should work wonders on this map but doesn't. Rising Sun is a common weapon (am I being hinted that Rising Sun is actually supposed to be an alternate Metal Blade?)

MetalNC is very simple and fun. The weapon position seems like a fair game for everyone, and I like that. I can see that this map was made to be simple right from the beginning. RISING SUN WANTS TO BE METAL BLADE. :S

QuickNC's layout is actually nice, and there's different weapons to try out depending on where you spawn. I didn't even know there was a lower area that borders a portion of the map. The laser isn't much of a threat, and the split isn't as well. Maybe lasers in the upper area, and more crystals that send the laser into a more traversed area? METAL BLADE IS HERE, OH MY GOD, WHAT TOOK YOU SO LONG?..although there are enough good and fun weapons in here to try out, so it kinda looks out of place.

WoodNC's textures are pretty white, pretty bright. Rising Sun (:I), Freeze Cracker, Blizzard Attack, Ice Circle...they all mix with the map, which leads to accidental deaths caused by random projectiles that can't be distinguished because of how bright the snow is. Honestly, I don't think there's much to be done about that, unless you pick a different weapon selection that doesn't blend in with the enviroment. The layout isn't all that bad, it's a circle with a varied terrain elevation. It snows in the background, but it snows upwards? Try making it actually snowing in the map and not just the background.

Wily1NC has an interesting layout with two concepts to use, and a varied weapon selection. I don't understand why Rising Sun tends to be more common than Metal Blade. Also, Za Warudo right now deservers to be kinda hard to get because of the ammo rate it recharges with each ammo capsule. In my honest opinion, it isn't that much of a cheap weapon, and Rumbling Hard deserves its spot if said issue with Za Warudo is fixed.

Wily2NC's layout is ok, and there's enough weapons based around it, as well as some all-around weapons. Spin Wheel works well in here, and Wild Coil is always a plus to me. Ice Circle would be a very nice weapon here 'cause of the conveyor belts. It's not really bad at all.

Wily3NC is quite innovative. The layout is nice, lots of good weapons to try. The place is a bit too claustrophobic, but I don't mind it that much. There is one thing, though: the movement while walking on the ceiling differs quite a bit from the normal movement, it's very slippery, and I believe the ceiling terrain should be based around that, because if it's not then it just becomes a nuisance to traverse and battle in it.

Wily4NC... oh boy. Duel arena layout with a weapon selection that punches so hard it punches me back into last week. Hard Knuckle, Atomic Fire, Power Stone and Za Warudo out of reach: ALL IN THE SAME FLOOR. What do you find below? EXPLOSIVES, save for Hyper Bomb which would be an overkill. I don't know if it would be fun to play with all these heavy weapons or if it would even last long enough to enjoy it. Hell, I'm not even sure if it would be fun since all there is to use is superbly powerful, just pick your poison and throw it at people and watch them melt.

All in all, it's pretty mixed up, and really doesn't live up to other expansions. It's not even a finished expansion, if I do say so myself. There's still work to be done in the map department, and some rethinking in the weapon department.

Rising Sun isn't just fun to use and useful when compared to Metal Blade (and Metal Blade itself is a standard weapon, for Pete's sake), and Spin Wheel's very situational. Ice Circle's movement halt should be replaced with just a movement slowdown, unless it's added into maps with gimmicks that force a player to move without input like BubbleNC or Wily2NC. Rumbling Bang is a very useful and powerful explosive weapon, and it should be less common or at least not so easy to obtain.

Za Warudo is pretty good and almost borderline cheap, given the ammo recharge rate and its ability: just increase the ammo recharge rate and it wouldn't be so cheap, and thus could be placed in easier spots. Delay Flame and Proto Charge aren't really bad weapon at all, as they have their uses, but Proto Charge is a straight upgrade from the Mega Buster...should that even count as a special weapon? Wind Slicer is just a modified Air Shooter, kinda good for long range and still as deadly at point blank...try thinking of a way to differentiate it a bit more from Air Shooter.

Tan outta tan.

[Myroc]

*snip*

See, this? This is excellent. This is how you do criticism. Pointing out all the flaws is an excellent way in helping us alleviate them, instead of just saying "this thing has too many flaws, it sucks". You people welcome to dislike the expansion all you want, but do please point out why.

Anyway, we've taken all your opinions into account, and are right now moving for a patch. It will contain mostly bug-fixes and balance tweaks, as well as some weapon rearrangement. Map layout is probably going to stay the same, the exception being heat man, which is receiving at the very least an aesthetical overhaul.

Anyway, these are the current balance tweaks we've implemented. This is subject to change, because we would like your input on them.

Ice Circle - Health buffed 75 > 125. Busters now deal double damage against the shield, so it's not too hard to break down if you're all out of weapons. (The suggested slower movement might work, we'll play around with it.)
Delay Flame - Pre-launch damage reduced 20 > 15 and doesn't hitstun. Post-launch damage remains at 20.
Spin Wheel - Damage reduced 25 > 15 pre-launch and 25 > 20 post-launch. (Subject to change, I hear split opinions about this weapon.)
Rumbling Bang - Explosion damage at point zero reduced 100* > 60. Radius increased 270 > 350. Moved into Area of Effect weapons. Still obtainable in LMS.

*I am not sure whoever thought this was a great idea, let alone how we failed to notice this was broken as all hell.

Keep the criticism coming. We'll take all of it, good or bad.

[Hallan Parva]

Spin Wheel launch damage to 15, I can live with that... but a nerf to 20 when it's rolling seems a bit hard.

Spin Wheel is silly and hard to aim, and the throwing arc makes even the likes of Screw Crusher weep with disappointment.

Other than that (and the fact that Rising Sun didn't get changed and is on 88% of RNC maps) I'm looking forward to the changes.

[JaxOf7]

Rumbling Bang - Explosion damage at point zero reduced 100* > 60. Radius increased 270 > 350. Moved into Area of Effect weapons. Still obtainable in LMS.

Rumbling Bang : 60 Damage, 350 Radius, 7 shots
Rain Flush : 50 Damage, 512 radius, 4 shots (about twice as much time between shots, way more startup)

Considering all this...
Yeah I actually think this will work out.

[Gamester522]

I enjoy this expansion.
But some of the stages in my opinion seem like they lack a bit.

Metalman- Too small for my taste, as well as the pit seems too big considering the stage size.
Flashman- Flashman's stage in the rom hack made it to where the lights would darken only showing some platforms but not all. I was looking forward to this gimmick, but I was a little disappointed to see it not being there.
Airman- The rom hack of the stage had the wind gimmick when ever you were in the open/outside. Adding this to the map could up the difficulty.
Heatman- This might sound nightmarish, but the rom hack had pass-through floors with spikes underneath, It would have been interesting to see this aspect implemented, but to a degree avoidable for the player.
Quickman- This one bothered me the most. It was pretty underwhelming to encounter such a small amount of quick beams; just one that split in two directions and it was very easily avoidable. I was expecting a lot more than just one. Either adding more beams or making them split multiple times to catch the player off-guard would stay true to how difficult the stage is in the rom hack. Plus it was pretty small, I think it could be bigger if more beams were added.
Woodman- This, unlike everyone else, didn't make my eyes hurt, I loved how bright it was.
Wily Stage 3- I love the idea behind this stage. I understand that it is difficult to make it possible to actually walk upside-down in Doom Builder, but it made me a little frustrated that I've died from the ceiling pit multiple times.
Final Boss- This boss was too easy. Knowing how easy it is to dodge his attacks, I thought he would one-hit you. Because he doesn't deal enough damage, it's too simple; in the rom hack, he does so much damage, it was ridiculous.

This is what I think of this expansion. RNC is a difficult game, and the fact that most of these stages don't follow the same difficulty criteria as the actual game, I didn't find this expansion that effective. Also, I think that there isn't a good wide of variety different weapons in some of the maps because I was getting bored using the same weapon over and over again. Not everyone is professional at MM8BDM, but these maps need to be more difficult AND do-able to reflect the game it is based off of for it's famous difficulty. I was expecting the maps in this expansion to be more difficult because RNC is a difficult game.

I, by no means hate this expansion, I like it alot. I just think that this expansion could be made better and I'm waiting and looking forward to this expansion to be mind-blowing in the sense that you could relive RNC in a first person perspective. I enjoy this expansion, and I know it can be better, and I'll enjoy it to the fullest when it does. This expansion will have my support.

Thank you to anybody reading this, if you did.  

[Hallan Parva]

My suggestions for weapon changes. Take these as you will.

Delay Flame

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Delay Flame
Level 18 Souls

-20% firing speed
-50% initial damage
damage increases over distance
+50% damage at capped range
+10% ammo

[12:02:31 AM] Nido: you can still punch people with it
[12:02:40 AM] Nido: but now it's a distance like DarkMan3
[12:02:45 AM] Roc's Creation: lol
[12:02:51 AM] Roc's Creation: going to approach YD in the format he really loves, huh?
[12:02:54 AM] Nido: because 8BDM lacks any distance weapons ~ Mike

Rising Sun

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Rising Sun
Level 10 Saw Blades

-30% firing speed
-10% damage
hold down fire to load up to five blades
release a charge to rapidly fire stored blades
+150% firing speed with charged blades
charging to 500% or more will slowly drain ammo as a penalty

Spin Wheel

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Spin Wheel
Level 12 Saw Blades

-70% damage before contact with floors
projectile rips before contact with floors
+15% damage after contact with floors
projectile loses ripping after contact with floors

This is to emphasize the use of setting Spin Wheel.
If you want a close-ranged bouncer, use Napalm Bomb or Screw Crusher.

Wind Slicer

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Wind Slicer
Level 8 Scattergun

... that's it. I'm fine with it as-is. Deadly up close, worthless when ranged. I love it, actually.

Rumbling Bang

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Rumbling Bang
Level 20 Live Ordnance

wave projectiles deal the main damage
-80% damage from AoE blast
creates two burst AoE blasts

BECAUSE MELEE RAIN FLUSH IS STUPID.

Ice Circle

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Ice Circle
Level 5 Shield

While weapon is in use:
-85% movement speed
-120% jump force
double damage from Buster attacks
+125% armor
+10% damage
Shield breaks after losing its armor.

Wondering why there's an extra 20% jump penalty? Simple, it makes you fall faster!

I can't think of a way to separate Proto Charge from the PU / Classes charge shot without making it either useless or OP, and I also don't know how to make Za Warudo not suck, but other than that I've tried to diversify the remaining six weapons. The TF2 format's just to get the information in a clear format without typing out a paragraph or anything (and to make YD read it harder), and I'm honestly proposing these changes. Again, they're just ideas; I'm not saying they're the best, and I also don't want you shooting them down immediately. Weigh the pros and the cons, and test them in a server or something; if you don't like it, you can always not use it, plain and simple.

[Myroc]

Most of these suggestions are... not too great, if I'm honest. Most of them seem too gimmicky. Though I liked the Spin Wheel ripping before hitting the ground, might go with that.

Rising Sun will probably be featured slightly less in most maps, and will also be tweaked to emphasize the slower, more powerful long range weapon. Currently it seems we have failed to distinguish it from Metal Blade.

Edit, because I missed this:

This is what I think of this expansion. RNC is a difficult game, and the fact that most of these stages don't follow the same difficulty criteria as the actual game, I didn't find this expansion that effective. Also, I think that there isn't a good wide of variety different weapons in some of the maps because I was getting bored using the same weapon over and over again. Not everyone is professional at MM8BDM, but these maps need to be more difficult AND do-able to reflect the game it is based off of for it's famous difficulty. I was expecting the maps in this expansion to be more difficult because RNC is a difficult game.

The stages must not distract from the actual fighting going on inside them. The more difficulty gimmicks we implement in a map, the more frustrating it will be to navigate. This is a multiplayer game, unlike RNC we can't afford to make stages difficult to navigate.

[Shin Star]

Wily Stage 1- The water outside of the fortress lacks the spikes compared to it's rom hack counter-part.

They are there, but they're on the perimeter of the map. If you jump high enough and go above the side walls, you'll see them. You can die on them too.

I didn't realize the expansion was released early in the week. I've been checking this thread almost every day but got side tracked from the MM8 expansion thread lol.

It's really late but I wanted to say a couple of things:
-Could you guys make it so when Ice Circle is in use, the weapon bar glows so I know the shield is still up instead of having to hold a direction until I move.......and die?

-The music quality is lower than I expected. I looked at the files with slumped and there's 2 versions of Wily Castle 3-4 in there. The one being used isn't looped properly and lower quality. I'm not too concerned here since I made my own replacements for it already. Although they're in stereo. I really love the music in RnC and wanted to address this issue. I'll play around with it more later and give my thoughts, or wait until the next patch. Thanks for finally releasing the expansion too!!  

[MusashiAA]

I really love the music in RnC and wanted to address this [low quality] issue.

OH DERE'S MY CUE.

NSFImporting all of RnC's music? Might as well help you guys with my incredibly superflous skills!

[BiscuitSlash]

This is how you do criticism. Pointing out all the flaws is an excellent way in helping us alleviate them, instead of just saying "this thing has too many flaws, it sucks".

I would have written a review of this, but judging by the quality of it seeming like you don't even care about this expansion

From this expansion and many other inperfectionistical things in YD classes, it seemed really doubtful that YD would ever bother to fix any of these things. Though since I was thinking about writing the review and sending it to Myroc so that he could hopefully force some improvements, I might as well go ahead and say all the flaws that spoke out to me.

Maps:
-Almost every map is underwhelming. Heatman gets the biggest mention here. Aside from BubblemanNC (new updates from Rocpakv1a are good), Wily 2 and Wily 3 (campaign was especially good, though this map's novelty will soon wear off), there wasn't that much to them. A lot of them were small and not very exploitative, especially HeatmanNC which is downright bland and uninteresting. As said many times by others, they are duel maps, not deathmatch maps. This needs to be improved on.
Weapons: (This gets most of my frowny face, you read this!)
Many of the weapons are just lacking and really aren't what they should be.
-Proto Charge. Why the hell does that uncharged shot use the buster sound effect and not the hit sound effect like the charge shot? Those loud noises were one of the only reasons I ever occasionally used uncharged shots in RNC, and now you've reduced it to an underwhelming bullet. WHY? Also I noticed that the player translation colours are exactly the same as the mega buster. If this was simply down to doom palette limitations, then fine, but if you were just being lazy (which I do not doubt) then this really needs to be changed, as it just sucks this way.
-Rising Sun a decent RoF base weapon that is fast and is 24 damage ripper. If you're going to have something like this, then at least make it out of the way and not placed 3 times in half the maps. I saw'd plowed through half of ClashmanNC's map on the campaign using this. It's way easy to reach and if it's not going to have a damage nerf, it at least needs to be pushed out the way a bit.
-Wind Slicer Yeeeaahh, this really needs more of a spread and more randomness in it's spread. It feels like a shotgun with really good mid-long range accuracy.
-Delay Flame This one feels really spammy. Use it at close range and you'll be gaining really easy kills. This needs some sort of nerf, though I'm not entirely sure how.
-Rumbling Bang Gawd, I hate this weapon. Why? Because of how lazy you were with the sound. You simply slapped on the crash bomb sound, despite it being really out of sync with that sound. What's so hard about making separate hit sounds in time with the sprites for each explosion? You really don't seem to care at all about quality with something like this. Not only that, but it's op. Use one of those base weapons that you've collected? Nah, just grab Rumbling Bang right there in ClashNC's stage and win.
-Ice Circle This isn't clear on how to use it. Even when you do know how to use it, it doesn't seem as if you could make much use of it. This goes very badly with the fact that it's so out of reach and that you'll soon die and not have it when you could use it.
Campain:
-The frag limit for half the maps is really out of place. 10(15?) frag limit on AirmanNC, not giving much chance to play it and explore (not that there's much to explore) and then suddenly 20 on HeatmanNC, which as already said, is very bland and it really drags the level on a lot longer. This is similar for other maps too, though I can't remember which ones.
-Campaign boss

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WAY TOO EASY. The star effect was good, but apart from that it was just a strafe and shoot game that lasts less than a minute.

But yeah, there wasn't exactly much to the original battle anyway so w/e.

Misc.:
-Any way of having an end level theme that doesn't get cut off?
-Some music needs cleaning up, such as that horrid loop on WoodNC.
-"Invalid Bot Name: Flashman No Constancy" so pro

There were good things, but these things really need to be addressed. Hopefully the updates will add to the half biscuit that v1a was.

[TheDoc]

I'd say that my desire to play this expansion in the first place clouded my judgment in my previous post, so I'm going to do another take on the maps.
Airman: I was disappointed by the fact that there were 2 RNC weapons here and no air gimmicks (minus the one yoku block u stepped on to reach RCutter). It felt small.
Heatman: The map (as I'm sure you've heard) was bland; the fake floor was a great idea, but not implemented as much as i'd like to see, so more gimmickyness would be good. The map needs to be bigger with much more differintiation, differition.....variety there we go in terrain. It was all kinda flat and there was 1 RNC weapon...
Flashman: Like Musashi said, I liked the layout. In fact, I like the stage over all, but the bridge was the only implementation of the jumpmaze of blocks you have to go through in the actual game. I was expecting a weapon you had to go out of your way to get in this map by jumping on said blocks. Za Warudo
Clashman: I actually liked this map. What confused me is why so much of this map is inside when this map clearly takes place...well........outside. I'd have like to see maybe one more W-Tank
Quickman: Like I said before, the crystal deflecting the beams was really cool. Good stage, but I was expecting bigger...
Metalman: "These stages are kinda cool I gue-"WHAM METALMAN'S STAGE! This was a good, good stage. I only remember 2 RNC weapons, so I'd prefer one more RNC weapon. If there are more, then this stage is great. I saw the E-Tank (which took you long enough to add) and it reminded me of the E-Tank that was hard to get out with in the romhack's Metalman stage. Good job!
Woodman: Like I've said, you didn't have alot of color variety, but I couldnt see my Rising Sun shots and every thing was a big mess of white. The layout was just outright unappealing. The layout was small and repetitive, and not alot of weapon variety either (especially RNC weapons)
Bubbleman: I expected more spikes and hazards in Bubblemans stage than any other. I remember Bubbleman's stage being the bitchiest RNC stage out of all of the RMs stages in the romhack. Why this "watch-your-step" concept wasnt implemented at least a little bit here, I dont know. The current gimmick was nice, but it's not a very good standalone gimmick for just hindering people when they have 50 other ways to get to the same place. If there's a go-out-of-your-way-to-get-it item/weapon at the end of a corridor with that gimmick, thats good.
Wily 1: Can't say I didn't like it, but considering how small the underwater bit was, I was expecting a bigger factory part (although the Mecha Dragon was genius).
Wily 2: This stage is pretty good. I would've liked more items; the only one I could find was a W-Tank. Besides that, it looks good.
Wily 3: I liked the gravity gimmick (minus the, you know, standing on your head part), and the variety of weapons was good, too.
Wily 4: Stage was VERY small with Boom-Boom weapons galore. Plus there was ONE RNC weapon, and that was Za Warudo...why? There should be more RNC weapons here out of all of them. It's the last stage!
Final Boss: I loved the final boss besides its difficulty. Watching the boss door slowly open and walking into that vortex of stars raised the before-battle intensity a ton. The boss had a very stale pattern (and when it shot those weird lightning balls, they didn't do anything), but I understand you didn't have much to work with. After all, that's what the final boss did in the romhack.

Honestly, this expansion isn't a bad expansion, but has much more potential. I can't wait to see where this goes.

[Myroc]

(and when it shot those weird lightning balls, they didn't do anything)

...what? They should be quite damaging, if they aren't doing anything than this is (another) honest down-to-earth bug. I'll look into this.

(Oh, and we might be getting a tad more... creative... with the boss in the next patch. I can't promise anything though.)

[TheDoc]

SE-CRET BOSS! SE-CRET BOSS!