[HOTFIX] - King Yamato's Classes Overhaul

[Max]

HAHA what no

[Sora]

Thats his second way of nerfing classes. His main way is to play online games, and if he gets killed by the same class over and over again, he nerfs it. Nuff said.

Then why are Quint, Napalm Man, and Cutman still so amazingly powerful lolololol

Also, if this were the case, YD could just as easily fix a UP class if people complain enough about it.  The problem is that people complain about Classes being OP too often, and too few actually say certain classes are UP when they really are. I'm looking at you, Metalman and Knightman <_>

Also, you're totally ignoring what I said at the very first.  Ahem:

WARNING: OPINIONS INCOMING
READ AT YOUR OWN PERIL j

I honestly don't find a superior difference in either KY or YD classes.  No, I'm not saying "GUISE KY CLASSEZ IS NEW AND ISN'T AS GOOD!!!!11", or, "GUISE YD CLASSEZ HAZ SLOPPY PROGRAMATION!!!1111111"; I just don't see any major difference between the two that can have it safely be said that one is better than the other.

You're talking like I think YD is vastly superior to KY.  And, as I said in my first post, I think there are good points to both versions of classes.  The problem is that both sides can't put away their own personal pride and actually combine the best of the two.  To say that one is superior to the other is completely biased, especially when there are only minor differences between the two,  And, again:

WARNING: OPINIONS INCOMING
READ AT YOUR OWN PERIL j

I rest my case.  /me drops my briefcase on my foot.

[Mr. X]

I can't believe nobody has mentioned this in this topic yet so I figure I'll have to:  Gravity Man walking on the ceiling is pretty much the coolest anything I've seen in a mod yet.  Bravo for figuring that out!

[Tesseractal]

Probably the best solution for this Classes madness is to have KY's and YD's Classes merge the best between the two, and work together to produce superior classes, instead of having people argue on both sides constantly, saying "NO, X'S CLASSES ARE BETTER, BECAUSE OF REASONS A, B, C, etc."  Instead of constant arguing between the two, much more work could get done if everyone put away their petty reasons and worked together to make the well-sought for "perfect classes mod".

Which, if you ask me, is not as bad as the probable alternative, which is a major split in the community of what version of classes is better, tons of arguing etc etc. I can see where Yamato is coming from, but really. Both of you are grown men, is it really that hard to work together for the greater good?

Things like "the way YD nerfs classes" and "the best solution" are clearly too subjective for us to define at this point. There is a reason I said "YD had his chance". YD's current mod is already a "merge". By comparing the "original classes" YD receives from others to their current forms, it's clear that YD isn't satisfied with classes when he receives them others. Here's some examples of classes that have been modified by YD as part of a "merge".

-King Yamato's Quint (original class, submitted to YD): Has Sakugarne as an effective main weapon.
-King Yamato's Quint after being sent to YD: Sakugarne becomes ineffective as a weapon, Quint is given "Quint Buster" to compensate.

-King Yamato's Ballade: Can drop one bomb and leap forward from the ground.
-King Yamato's Ballade after YD has it: Can drop three bombs and jump from mid-air, emulating flight. (I call him "superman" for a reason.)

-Ivory's Crystal Man: Can use main and alt-fires effectively.
-Ivory's Crystal Man after being edited: Main fire and alt-fire have reduced effectiveness.

-Ivory's Star Man: Can use Star Crash effectively and regularly without difficulty.
-Ivory's Star man after YD's molestation: Can not use Star Crash with ease. Is given "Star Cereal / Frosted Flakes / etc." to compensate.

Notice a similarity between "YD's" Quint and YD's Star Man? Yellow Devil reduced the effectiveness of the Main Fire of both classes, and compensated by inventing an alt-fire for them. Whether or not you like the alt-fire is irrelevant; the purpose of it is identical in both cases.

YD takes classes that are effective in their original forms and makes them ineffective. King Yamato's Mod is a result of Yellow Devil having zero input over the classes. Is desiring effective classes a "petty reason" or a "constant argument"? Does a grown man feel inclined to diminish the work of everything he touches? History repeats itself; people are not inclined toward change. If you want to visualize the results of a merge, do not base it on your petty ideals such as "greater good" or "grown men". Look at what has already happened with respect to YD taking control of other people's classes, and you generally find the same result: a diminish in quality.

Using the empirical examples above, I would reason that YD's mod is incapable of improving under YD's control. If you really saw where King Yamato is coming from, you'll see that King Yamato has no incentive to attach himself to a parasite.

[Sora]

...Roc, I repeat:

I honestly don't find a superior difference in either KY or YD classes.  No, I'm not saying "GUISE KY CLASSEZ IS NEW AND ISN'T AS GOOD!!!!11", or, "GUISE YD CLASSEZ HAZ SLOPPY PROGRAMATION!!!1111111"; I just don't see any major difference between the two that can have it safely be said that one is better than the other.

Having played both modes, I can say that neither feel quite right.  YD's are nerfed to the point much skill is required to make them work effectively, while KY's are buffed to the point that almost no skill is required to play some classes.  Point is, neither KY's or YD's are perfect at this point.  To say one is better than the other requires proof; and so far, on servers of either KY's classes or YD's classes, have I heard "Guys, these classes are perfect, nothing needs to be changed!" or "Guys, these classes are totally unplayable, why do they even exist?"  Currently, one mod being superior over the other is completely subjective; I find both fun to play for different reasons: KY's classes are a blast to play on DM/TDM servers, while they do leave some classes out in the cold in LMS/TLMS.  To say that one work in progress is superior to another work in progress is simply being hasty and impatient.  I personally want to see the final product of both before making judgment on what classes are better. Remember, something being better will always be subjective

Also, a point no one looks at are the MM7 Classes.  YD's team did an amazing job with these, and to say that, just because a few of the old classes are lacking currently (which is the point of YD updating his), the entire mod is not fun to play, is completely ridiculous.

tl;dr:  I don't find either YD's or KY's classes totally superior to the other.  To compare the two mods of classes is completely pointless at this point in time, since neither are totally finished.  I am simply trying to suggest, although KY does have some definite improvements, YD still has some points I do appreciate more.

[SaviorSword]

KY's mod vs YD's mod just brin's back too many bad memories of StarCraft Brood Wars vs StarCraft 2 debates...

The only thin' that has a connection between the 2 mods is the title: "Classes".

Sure there are many similarities between the 2, but when it comes to bein' able to transfer one strategy (not mechanics, which is true in any case) on a certain class from mod to the other's equivalent, it typically won't work (Unless there is no difference from the classes of course). Ya can't really say which is "better", it's comparin' apples and oranges for the most part. Imbalances still lurk around in both mods, but if he hypothetically assume that one day that all classes are created equal (in terms of balance), both of the mods will still differ by a huge margin. Since in this scenario where balance can not be argued, it comes down to taste of which gameplay folks like better and there is no true "better" version.

[Bikdark]

Both YD's classes and KY's classes are equally unbalanced Complete lie, KY's is less balanced. Aheuaehua. The only difference is one of them is new, so people automatically think it's better than the previous. The main things people bring up about the mods are the small things, including but not limited too: Gravityman Sky walking and Quint being slightly faster on sakugarne. Quint can still kill effectively in YD's version, and Gravity sky walking is more of an aesthetic than actual balancing/changing.
 These small things lead people to believe they emulate the games better, and therefor BE better. This however is not true, as making the RMs exactly like the games but with worse balance than a previous version that was less canon, but more balanced is bad. If people are told enough that their version is better, they will start to believe this no matter what.
 Either way, both mods are equally fun, KY's emulating the games more, making you feel like you're playing as the masters better, and YD's having better balance. I also applaud KY for having the balls to release an unapproved changed version of a mod publicly.

[xColdxFusionx]

English motherf***er do you speak it?

Please try to not contradict yourself every other sentence. It makes you impossible to understand. It also makes your argument much less valid.

[Tesseractal]

To say one is better than the other requires proof; and so far, on servers of either KY's classes or YD's classes, have I heard "Guys, these classes are perfect, nothing needs to be changed!" or "Guys, these classes are totally unplayable, why do they even exist?"

Shmeckie has described Punk's class as "perfect" in this thread. Since you haven't heard it, allow me to share: This mod is my way of asking "Why do YD's classes exist?"

Currently, one mod being superior over the other is completely subjective; I find both fun to play for different reasons

I have proved that certain classes in this mod are more useful; and I can argue for more of them. Whether or not you find useful classes fun is subjective.

To compare the two mods of classes is completely pointless at this point in time, since neither are totally finished.

Your opinion is also unfinished. If I followed your logic, it would make both yours and Savior's opinions "completely pointless."

Both YD's classes and KY's classes are equally unbalanced Complete lie, KY's is less balanced. Aheuaehua. The only difference is one of them is new, so people automatically think it's better than the previous. The main things people bring up about the mods are the small things, including but not limited too: Gravityman Sky walking and Quint being slightly faster on sakugarne.

This appears to be an attack on the community. I believe the community can make judgments regardless of the time proximity; and you are passing an unfair judgment. There's a problem here: You've stated that the mods have only one difference (time), and yet listed multiple differences between the mods immediately afterword! I will also that: The entire mod is made up of "small things". And it's small things that cause a huge difference: Being able to throw Search Snakes versus not being able to means Snake Man becomes suddenly more useful. Trying to marginalize these differences suggests inexperience in your judgment. Balance is subjective and you cannot "prove" it; rendering any arguments of it pointless. Calling both mods "equally unbalanced" is rather implausible, however.

Quint can still kill effectively in YD's version

Less effectively. Both the Mega Buster and Needle Cannon can kill people "effectively". Needle Cannon is more effective. You cannot argue against that. (You can nerf Needle Cannon, though.) Are they "balanced"? I do not wish to argue over such a vague term. Needle Cannon kills people faster. It's more effective. By the same token, I have already compared from YD's to KY's: Quint, Star Man, and Crystal Man. KY's is more effective each time.  Generally, Yamato's counterparts will prove more effective. Hard Man. Yamato Man. Dust Man. Punk. Yamato's mod has more examples of more effective classes.

Are they balanced? I am tired of that word; I can't guarantee it. I can guarantee they are useful. You can argue that the Mega Buster is more balanced than Needle Cannon. You cannot argue that Mega Buster is more useful than Needle Cannon!

and Gravity sky walking is more of an aesthetic than actual balancing/changing. These small things lead people to believe they emulate the games better, and therefor BE better. This however is not true, as making the RMs exactly like the games but with worse balance than a previous version that was less canon, but more balanced is bad.

Are people not allowed to have preferences? You seem to be attacking the community, and not the mod. If people like playing as classes that better emulate the games, that's a preference. Balance is a preference. It cannot be argued. You are simply attacking the community for their tastes. If you think that your preferences are more true (e.g. outweigh) the community's, I will assure you that your mod will also be only preferred by you.

If people are told enough that their version is better, they will start to believe this no matter what.

Again, this appears to be an attack on the community. I believe the community is capable of forming their own preferences! If I did not, I wouldn't have provided them with an alternative. But there's a bit of hypocrisy here: You appear to be the only one "telling" anyone which mod they should prefer. I am simply telling them which mod will let them play as more useful classes.

Either way, both mods are equally fun, KY's emulating the games more, making you feel like you're playing as the masters better, and YD's having better balance.

Balance is a preference. Only the latter can be argued.

I also applaud KY for having the balls to release an unapproved changed version of a mod publicly.

[10/7/11 2:40:20 AM] Ivory: Well. The MM8BDM community is a tree branch of the Doom Community, where stuff like this is a commonality. Generally I'm fine with it so long as credit is given where credit is due.

[Shmeckie]

Ice, you know I'm with you for the most part, but you keep talking like Gomez Addams or something. It's wierd.

There are a few things that need toning down in KY's mod, but in general there's not much to gripe about. The only things I can think of off-hand are Yamato Man's damage output (at least for his projectile attack. I can understand his melee attack doing lots of damage), and Tomahawk Man's speed or damage output (one or the other needs toning down, but not both). Dark Man could probably go for a little buffing here and there, as well. Also that Napalm Man double shot... >.> Otherwise, it's an overall solid mod. Perfect balance just isn't going to happen in a FPS like this, and it's not terribly necissary anyway. It's not like a fighting game, where it's just the two characters on even footing. The environments, the crowd, sneak atatcks vs. direct assaults, etc.

Perfect balance is near impossible because the concept itself doesn't work in this context. There are too many variables in a situation like this. Let's say YD's Slash Man was in this mod, up against Yamato Man. If Slash Man went up against Yamato man head on, he'd get slaughtered. "Yamato Man is OP", the Slash Man player would whine. Until he gets a OHKO sneak attack off on the Yamato Man and turns things around.

Each character has situations and environments in which they excel and suck at. Gyro Man will do terrible in tiny stages, but excel in large, open ones. Punk is a killing machine in cramped spaces, but has a harder time in stages where the opponent has room to avoid his roll. The way you can tell if a character is OP or UP is if they don't suck or excel, respectively, in any situation, or too few situations.

[Korby]

Real quick tip so we don't get confused because there's another member named "ice," call mr. Ix "Roc" or "Roc's Creation."

[Shade Guy]

Just to clarify things, Shmeckie: What is it about Napalm firing two bombs at once that you dislike? Is it that you're being forced to shoot more than you want to? Do you think it's overpowered?

[Shmeckie]

Forced to shoot more than I want to, and the fact that he fires two consecutively feels awkward and screws up my timing and rhythm, and uses ammo needlessly. I'd prefer if he either fired one at a time, or both at once, but the one-two punch just feels unintuitive.

[TheDoc]

Forced to shoot more than I want to, and the fact that he fires two consecutively feels awkward and screws up my timing and rhythm, and uses ammo needlessly. I'd prefer if he either fired one at a time, or both at once, but the one-two punch just feels unintuitive.

Agreed, but 4 a diff. reason. If u want one at a time, go play YD`s. But since this is a recreation of MM5`s Napalmman, he should fire 2 at a time. Also, I think he should fire 3 rounds of missiles, not 2 stop......1.

[Bikdark]

Pfft, I fucked my post up hard. Thanks, cold. I'm too lazy to fix it, though.
Roc, as soon as you stop typing essays, I'll be happy to respond to that.