Discuss your honest thoughts on GVH Nordic Saga.

[xColdxFusionx]

Sir, you still haven't answered my questions.

Yes, Watermelon. The reason for us getting on IRC.

I'd also love to know your definition of troll.

Already answered.
Where?

There is no reason why you can't argue on these forums. Because the mods aren't "neutral"? They're still people who can have a say in an argument. They can agree or disagree with someone. On the IRC channel the same exact thing will happen.

Don't kid yourself, these are not neutral.
Go to IRC if you have any valid points.
You mean the one you run?
k.


Simple.

I accept this as your refusal to attend.
Yes.

*F5 F5 F5*

[Watermelon]

So what exactly will going on IRC and getting banned accomplish

You mean the one you run?

There is literally nothing different about IRC except you're in control. Speaking here is just as fast.

I've already pointed out
1) I DO NOT run IRC.
2) I will NOT have OP status.
3) Brotoad will have FULL CONTROL over the channel

What do you people not understand?

[IvanDobrovski]

Come "argue" with us on a neutral IRC channel if you have any logical points then.

"Neutral"?

As in the one you run?

Sure, totally. [/sarcasm]

Also there is an edit button.

He keeps saying he will give op to brotoad or whatever in a channel where he and I wont have op, is that so hard to understand ? You keep proving us right.

[Turbodude]

3) Brotoad will have FULL CONTROL over the channel
What do you people not understand?

Is Brotoad even on here to agree to this?

Registered users: Alucard, AquaRaider64, Bikdark, Blaze, Bluebrawl, Crystal King, Epic Kirby, FiniteZero, Galaxy, Google [Bot], Gummywormz, Human Destroyer, ice, Ice-IX, IvanDobrovski, Kenkoru, King Dumb, Korby, Lego, LlamaHombre, Megaman, MetalManu, omegazerox12, PowerGloveNinja, SaviorSword, Solarblast5, sonicfan966, Tails_Hatsune, TheBladeRoden, TheFancyEddie20, Watermelon, xColdxFusionx, xxkirbysonicxx1, Yellow Devil

Hey, he isn't! Whaddya know!?

[xColdxFusionx]

So what exactly will going on IRC and getting banned accomplish

You mean the one you run?

There is literally nothing different about IRC except you're in control. Speaking here is just as fast.

I've already pointed out
1) I DO NOT run IRC. k
2) I will NOT have OP status. k
3) Brotoad will have FULL CONTROL over the channel k

What do you people not understand? So basically you're moving from somwhere run by the Cutstuff mods to somewhere run by a Cutstuff mod who isn't even online.
...Totally makes sense.

And answer Korby's questions already!!

[Korby]

And you constantly prove us right, Ivan.

Watermelon, you've still yet to answer my questions. It's painfully obvious you're avoiding answering them.

[Dr. Freeman]

If you could tell me why you need a neutral mod, and not just post here, that would be great.
The mods here aren't banning you or anything. They're not stopping your arguments. There is nothing holding you back (besides name calling and stuff like that)

[King Dumb]

Alrighty, time I spoke up.

Firstly, my issues. Plenty have spoke up about non-gameplay stuff such as the wad size, graphics issues, etc., so I won't comment on those but to say that they ought to be fixed.

Now, the first thing I will address is balance. As has been pointed out in this thread, the previous thread mentioned by DTD, and NS's old thread (and I believe the new one) on the Skulltag forums, the problem is that you've ruined the delicate balance of the mode. In GvH, balance was maintained by the fact that (as a general rule), ghouls were equipped with strong, close-range weapons, while humans were equipped with weaker, longer-range weapons. Looking at the pre-NS cast, you can see this was the case. On the Ghouls' end, you have Jitterskull, Creepers (and don't try to argue with Creeper's stun ball, this is not lethal), and Chokes. On the Human end, you can see Cyborgs, Ghostbuster, and of course Marines. Sure, you'll find things like mines and detonators on the human end, but these are largely compensation for the Humans' lack of damage output compared to the Ghouls (Ghouls have to get up close to kill, they are very powerful, a good balancing countermeasure is to give Humans mines, etc).

Now, what has NS done to this? Well, as many have pointed out, you've added melee to Humans and ranged to Ghouls. I don't see many using Barbarian, and I'm going to assume that's because he can't do very well in the hands of the average player.
Say it's 5v5. Everyone picks random. Humans come up with Barbarian plus 4 pre-NS, ranged classes. Ghouls come up with Ice Demon plus 4 pre-NS, melee classes. The Barbarian goes to attack close up, it's now 4v1.

That leads me to the Ghouls. My oh my. While a melee class added to the Humans is highly ineffective, ranged classes on the Ghouls is very effective... in empowering the Ghouls. The ranged attacks I'm referring to are those of Ice Fiend, Frostbite, and Defiler in specific. Now, when the humans employ their normal (and really only effective, mind you) tactics, they are immediately flushed out by these powerful ranged attacks. In the chaos produced by Frostbite's dazzling attacks, the Ice Demon's very difficult to dodge icicle attack, and the obstruction provided by Defilers, the melee ghouls, who once had to deal with coordinated and deliberate fire from the Humans, can now come in and wreck havoc.

Seeing as you've managed to avoid or 'filibust' the previous arguments on this point, let's look at another way shall we? Humans have quite a few classes with weak-to-medium long-range weapons, with a few close range weapons that cannot be reliably used as primary weapons (grenades, mines, etc.), and a melee class. Ghouls have quite a few powerful, fast melee classes with a few medium-to-powerful, long-ranged classes. Which sounds more powerful?

You've claimed that you have 'added' 'unique' balance. Firstly, balance is not something you add. It is not a sum or value that you can increase in order to become better. Balance is a state of things. To put it in a visual, balance is when both sides of the scale are on the same level. One can claim to have 'semi-balance', where the sides of the scale are juuust about on the same level. However, what you've done is add a feather to one side of the scale, and a brick to the other.

Secondly, there is no such thing as 'unique' balance. As I said, balance is a state, with no denotation of specifics; in other words, 'balance' can refer to a feather on both sides of the scale, or a brick on both sides. Yes, you can make unique classes, but making unique classes doesn't make things balanced.

Now, previously, when others had brought up these issues, you have done a number of things. You have disregarded them as trolls, pointing to past actions of theirs which you define as trolling. Secondly, you have pointed to their own past mistakes, telling them they are in now position to make the above analyses. These counterarguments of yours are folly. When something is observable, as the above is, the person making the observation does not matter. For example, I have no past of project mismanagement or trolling on you and your co-developers. I have made the above observations just as those you have disregarded have.

Additionally, one of your most common counterpoints is that those judging your mod have not played it enough. You back this up by saying that either you or one of your co-developers are always or virtually always observing your server, therefore knowing who is on and who isn't. This is also a rather faulty claim. Firstly, it doesn't take 6 hours of gameplay to see the differences between NS and GvH; namely the changed attacks and new classes. If it is well known that GvH relied on the range vs. melee dynamic for balance, and it's obvious within 15 minutes of gameplay that the Ghouls have received powerful new ranged attacks, it isn't hard to make the step that this will hinder balance. If you want to require more information, damage outputs and speeds can be identified offline, over which you have no knowledge. Speaking of which, it's easy to garner empirical data without joining the server as well; for instance, your claim that you almost always end up with 4-5 score is hardly believable.

You make these claims, yet you won't back them up. You insist you cannot get the logs; if that is false, shame on you, and if it's true, stop making these claims, and stop threatening to search logs for users. You can't be believed.

You want to move the discussion to a 'neutral' IRC chat? That makes no sense at all, friend. Everyone who would want to participate in this discussion has access this forum (unless they've been banned, in which case we don't want them anyway). You feel like you're in 'enemy territory', that you're being assaulted by too many users, and that you haven't enough 'back up'? Nonsense, everyone on 'our' side has the same opinion. No other explanations other than self-interest exist for moving to your IRC.

[Bikdark]

Hey Watermelon/Ivan, in IRC:
Owner > Admin > OP
Make him owner instead plox

[Tesseractal]

Well you asked me "who likes it" but a better question is, "who doesn't like it". Also no, everyone is not a valid answer.

I don't like it, having played the original GvH mod (but not Nordic Saga). If removing it helps the filesize, that's great. Nordic Saga still has a rather large filesize and I'd prefer it be toned down before picking it up.

Also, from my experience on this forum, Brotoad is physically incapable of moderating users, so have no fear in visiting the IRC channel.

[xColdxFusionx]

Alrighty, time I spoke up.

Firstly, my issues. Plenty have spoke up about non-gameplay stuff such as the wad size, graphics issues, etc., so I won't comment on those but to say that they ought to be fixed.

Now, the first thing I will address is balance. As has been pointed out in this thread, the previous thread mentioned by DTD, and NS's old thread (and I believe the new one) on the Skulltag forums, the problem is that you've ruined the delicate balance of the mode. In GvH, balance was maintained by the fact that (as a general rule), ghouls were equipped with strong, close-range weapons, while humans were equipped with weaker, longer-range weapons. Looking at the pre-NS cast, you can see this was the case. On the Ghouls' end, you have Jitterskull, Creepers (and don't try to argue with Creeper's stun ball, this is not lethal), and Chokes. On the Human end, you can see Cyborgs, Ghostbuster, and of course Marines. Sure, you'll find things like mines and detonators on the human end, but these are largely compensation for the Humans' lack of damage output compared to the Ghouls (Ghouls have to get up close to kill, they are very powerful, a good balancing countermeasure is to give Humans mines, etc).

Now, what has NS done to this? Well, as many have pointed out, you've added melee to Humans and ranged to Ghouls. I don't see many using Barbarian, and I'm going to assume that's because he can't do very well in the hands of the average player.
Say it's 5v5. Everyone picks random. Humans come up with Barbarian plus 4 pre-NS, ranged classes. Ghouls come up with Ice Demon plus 4 pre-NS, melee classes. The Barbarian goes to attack close up, it's now 4v1.

That leads me to the Ghouls. My oh my. While a melee class added to the Humans is highly ineffective, ranged classes on the Ghouls is very effective... in empowering the Ghouls. The ranged attacks I'm referring to are those of Ice Fiend, Frostbite, and Defiler in specific. Now, when the humans employ their normal (and really only effective, mind you) tactics, they are immediately flushed out by these powerful ranged attacks. In the chaos produced by Frostbite's dazzling attacks, the Ice Demon's very difficult to dodge icicle attack, and the obstruction provided by Defilers, the melee ghouls, who once had to deal with coordinated and deliberate fire from the Humans, can now come in and wreck havoc.

Seeing as you've managed to avoid or 'filibust' the previous arguments on this point, let's look at another way shall we? Humans have quite a few classes with weak-to-medium long-range weapons, with a few close range weapons that cannot be reliably used as primary weapons (grenades, mines, etc.), and a melee class. Ghouls have quite a few powerful, fast melee classes with a few medium-to-powerful, long-ranged classes. Which sounds more powerful?

You've claimed that you have 'added' 'unique' balance. Firstly, balance is not something you add. It is not a sum or value that you can increase in order to become better. Balance is a state of things. To put it in a visual, balance is when both sides of the scale are on the same level. One can claim to have 'semi-balance', where the sides of the scale are juuust about on the same level. However, what you've done is add a feather to one side of the scale, and a brick to the other.

Secondly, there is no such thing as 'unique' balance. As I said, balance is a state, with no denotation of specifics; in other words, 'balance' can refer to a feather on both sides of the scale, or a brick on both sides. Yes, you can make unique classes, but making unique classes doesn't make things balanced.

Now, previously, when others had brought up these issues, you have done a number of things. You have disregarded them as trolls, pointing to past actions of theirs which you define as trolling. Secondly, you have pointed to their own past mistakes, telling them they are in now position to make the above analyses. These counterarguments of yours are folly. When something is observable, as the above is, the person making the observation does not matter. For example, I have no past of project mismanagement or trolling on you and your co-developers. I have made the above observations just as those you have disregarded have.

Additionally, one of your most common counterpoints is that those judging your mod have not played it enough. You back this up by saying that either you or one of your co-developers are always or virtually always observing your server, therefore knowing who is on and who isn't. This is also a rather faulty claim. Firstly, it doesn't take 6 hours of gameplay to see the differences between NS and GvH; namely the changed attacks and new classes. If it is well known that GvH relied on the range vs. melee dynamic for balance, and it's obvious within 15 minutes of gameplay that the Ghouls have received powerful new ranged attacks, it isn't hard to make the step that this will hinder balance. If you want to require more information, damage outputs and speeds can be identified offline, over which you have no knowledge. Speaking of which, it's easy to garner empirical data without joining the server as well; for instance, your claim that you almost always end up with 4-5 score is hardly believable.

You make these claims, yet you won't back them up. You insist you cannot get the logs; if that is false, shame on you, and if it's true, stop making these claims, and stop threatening to search logs for users. You can't be believed.

You want to move the discussion to a 'neutral' IRC chat? That makes no sense at all, friend. Everyone who would want to participate in this discussion has access this forum (unless they've been banned, in which case we don't want them anyway). You feel like you're in 'enemy territory', that you're being assaulted by too many users, and that you haven't enough 'back up'? Nonsense, everyone on 'our' side has the same opinion. No other explanations other than self-interest exist for moving to your IRC.

^ This. [/thread]

[Watermelon]

How come I can't post? My posts keep getting deleted by a mod or something

I'll go through that long post and give my reply.


@xColdxFusionx
You sound like a kid just riding of the coat-tails of people when you just go "yeah! yeah!" to everything.

[Galaxy Sisbro]

How come I can't post? My posts keep getting deleted by a mod or something

I'll go through that long post and give my reply.

You know what? That's the most horrible excuse I have seen in the whole topic.

[Turbodude]

How come I can't post? My posts keep getting deleted by a mod or something

what.
All of your posts are still there...

[Korby]

Unlike you, I'm not afraid to post logs.
[removed for shame]
No one has deleted any posts since 3:33. I'm the only mod online right now, and I'm certainly not doing anything.