Discuss your honest thoughts on GVH Nordic Saga.

[Tails]

How come I can't post? My posts keep getting deleted by a mod or something

I'll go through that long post and give my reply.


@xColdxFusionx
You sound like a kid just riding of the coat-tails of people when you just go "yeah! yeah!" to everything.

You know if you keep flaming people like this you'll eventually get banned for a large period of time, right?

[xColdxFusionx]

@xColdxFusionx
You sound like a kid just riding of the coat-tails of people when you just go "yeah! yeah!" to everything.

Weird, I agree with one person and you start whining that I'm riding on people's coattails when you haven't even been presenting any arguments since people started to try and shoot you down?

K, bro.

[Max]

(click to show/hide)

Saved the day

[IvanDobrovski]

Alrighty, time I spoke up.

Firstly, my issues. Plenty have spoke up about non-gameplay stuff such as the wad size, graphics issues, etc., so I won't comment on those but to say that they ought to be fixed.

Now, the first thing I will address is balance. As has been pointed out in this thread, the previous thread mentioned by DTD, and NS's old thread (and I believe the new one) on the Skulltag forums, the problem is that you've ruined the delicate balance of the mode. In GvH, balance was maintained by the fact that (as a general rule), ghouls were equipped with strong, close-range weapons, while humans were equipped with weaker, longer-range weapons. Looking at the pre-NS cast, you can see this was the case. On the Ghouls' end, you have Jitterskull, Creepers (and don't try to argue with Creeper's stun ball, this is not lethal), and Chokes. On the Human end, you can see Cyborgs, Ghostbuster, and of course Marines. Sure, you'll find things like mines and detonators on the human end, but these are largely compensation for the Humans' lack of damage output compared to the Ghouls (Ghouls have to get up close to kill, they are very powerful, a good balancing countermeasure is to give Humans mines, etc).

Now, what has NS done to this? Well, as many have pointed out, you've added melee to Humans and ranged to Ghouls. I don't see many using Barbarian, and I'm going to assume that's because he can't do very well in the hands of the average player.
Say it's 5v5. Everyone picks random. Humans come up with Barbarian plus 4 pre-NS, ranged classes. Ghouls come up with Ice Demon plus 4 pre-NS, melee classes. The Barbarian goes to attack close up, it's now 4v1.

That leads me to the Ghouls. My oh my. While a melee class added to the Humans is highly ineffective, ranged classes on the Ghouls is very effective... in empowering the Ghouls. The ranged attacks I'm referring to are those of Ice Fiend, Frostbite, and Defiler in specific. Now, when the humans employ their normal (and really only effective, mind you) tactics, they are immediately flushed out by these powerful ranged attacks. In the chaos produced by Frostbite's dazzling attacks, the Ice Demon's very difficult to dodge icicle attack, and the obstruction provided by Defilers, the melee ghouls, who once had to deal with coordinated and deliberate fire from the Humans, can now come in and wreck havoc.

Seeing as you've managed to avoid or 'filibust' the previous arguments on this point, let's look at another way shall we? Humans have quite a few classes with weak-to-medium long-range weapons, with a few close range weapons that cannot be reliably used as primary weapons (grenades, mines, etc.), and a melee class. Ghouls have quite a few powerful, fast melee classes with a few medium-to-powerful, long-ranged classes. Which sounds more powerful?

You've claimed that you have 'added' 'unique' balance. Firstly, balance is not something you add. It is not a sum or value that you can increase in order to become better. Balance is a state of things. To put it in a visual, balance is when both sides of the scale are on the same level. One can claim to have 'semi-balance', where the sides of the scale are juuust about on the same level. However, what you've done is add a feather to one side of the scale, and a brick to the other.

Secondly, there is no such thing as 'unique' balance. As I said, balance is a state, with no denotation of specifics; in other words, 'balance' can refer to a feather on both sides of the scale, or a brick on both sides. Yes, you can make unique classes, but making unique classes doesn't make things balanced.

Now, previously, when others had brought up these issues, you have done a number of things. You have disregarded them as trolls, pointing to past actions of theirs which you define as trolling. Secondly, you have pointed to their own past mistakes, telling them they are in now position to make the above analyses. These counterarguments of yours are folly. When something is observable, as the above is, the person making the observation does not matter. For example, I have no past of project mismanagement or trolling on you and your co-developers. I have made the above observations just as those you have disregarded have.

Additionally, one of your most common counterpoints is that those judging your mod have not played it enough. You back this up by saying that either you or one of your co-developers are always or virtually always observing your server, therefore knowing who is on and who isn't. This is also a rather faulty claim. Firstly, it doesn't take 6 hours of gameplay to see the differences between NS and GvH; namely the changed attacks and new classes. If it is well known that GvH relied on the range vs. melee dynamic for balance, and it's obvious within 15 minutes of gameplay that the Ghouls have received powerful new ranged attacks, it isn't hard to make the step that this will hinder balance. If you want to require more information, damage outputs and speeds can be identified offline, over which you have no knowledge. Speaking of which, it's easy to garner empirical data without joining the server as well; for instance, your claim that you almost always end up with 4-5 score is hardly believable.

You make these claims, yet you won't back them up. You insist you cannot get the logs; if that is false, shame on you, and if it's true, stop making these claims, and stop threatening to search logs for users. You can't be believed.

You want to move the discussion to a 'neutral' IRC chat? That makes no sense at all, friend. Everyone who would want to participate in this discussion has access this forum (unless they've been banned, in which case we don't want them anyway). You feel like you're in 'enemy territory', that you're being assaulted by too many users, and that you haven't enough 'back up'? Nonsense, everyone on 'our' side has the same opinion. No other explanations other than self-interest exist for moving to your IRC.

Another good post. Here I go;

* The filesize is something that can be reduced and will be, in the epic update. (Mainly musics which when compressed make it 90mb in total, but it will end up being more than that unfortunately [EDIT] : I meant the size of the whole thing, NS, it may lead to misunderstandings.]) Think of it like this. Old GvH was like, 90 mbs or what ? Take it out, its 60-70 mb that NS adds.
* I suppose what watermelon meant by "unique" balance was that the type of balance is unique to what it was in GvH. In old GvH it was ghouls rape on small maps, humans rape on big maps. Now, it's pretty equal I'd say.
* The point of the melee class is to supress the incoming mass of ghouls and slow them down or kill them, if possible. Mind you, many classes aren't IDEAL for an average player anyway, say Jitterskull. Barbarian has a unique gameplay which you need to spend probably more than 15 minutes to understand. I don't agree with you saying 15 minutes is enough to understand the changes. There are many reasons we added these, and they are there to be found as you play, not just "looking over" changelogs.
* The whole "melee vs ranged" thing is quite disturbing to be honest. It's monotone and clichés ridden. Apparently, people don't like getting used to changes so that's where the problem is based on mostly. Changes are everywhere, whether they are for the worse or better. You just try to get used to them. (Or delete NS from your harddrive, lol)
* "Hardly believable" vs "Statistical Information", it's not hard to see that many witness such scores, otherwise they wouldn't say how they love the new tie music we put right ! (We should really take notes of scores of each round btw. (I know watermelon will actually do that))

If I missed anything, do tell.

[Watermelon]

Firstly, my issues. Plenty have spoke up about non-gameplay stuff such as the wad size, graphics issues, etc., so I won't comment on those but to say that they ought to be fixed.

What graphic issues? There are none.
In terms of wad size, when we make the new core it'll be 80 megs + 40 meg music pack, we found that all the old GVH data was not compressed properly and that was our mistake for assuming CarThief actually did his job.

Now, the first thing I will address is balance. As has been pointed out in this thread, the previous thread mentioned by DTD, and NS's old thread (and I believe the new one) on the Skulltag forums, the problem is that you've ruined the delicate balance of the mode. In GvH, balance was maintained by the fact that (as a general rule), ghouls were equipped with strong, close-range weapons, while humans were equipped with weaker, longer-range weapons. Looking at the pre-NS cast, you can see this was the case.

This is wrong because we actually fixed that gap, that was the whole REASON why GVH was broken in the first place. In most maps humans would just go to a single point and camp into insanity and kill everything. There was no balance in the old GVH, being against 5 sjases automatically meant a win. In NS, this doesn't happen.
Even your own CarThief knew that sjas was OP and was going to put a limit on them.
We fixed that problem. Next.

Now, what has NS done to this? Well, as many have pointed out, you've added melee to Humans and ranged to Ghouls. I don't see many using Barbarian, and I'm going to assume that's because he can't do very well in the hands of the average player.

I see barbarians almost every round unless its a massive map like GVHNS04, even then people like Ivan still beat everyone just because of the amount of skill he has. We've even had the barbarian Band Of Brothers achievement unlocked, where 4+ barbs all get at least one kill... there were 6 barbs on the team-- I'm pretty sure the 'average player' wouldn't go barbarian if they'd just get their rear end kicked.

Say it's 5v5. Everyone picks random. Humans come up with Barbarian plus 4 pre-NS, ranged classes. Ghouls come up with Ice Demon plus 4 pre-NS, melee classes. The Barbarian goes to attack close up, it's now 4v1.

Whats an Ice demon? You mean icefiend? Clarify please.
Also the barbarian has a ranged attack as well, he's not only melee. You don't see barbarians just rushing in there by themselves. No one does that unless they're berserking and playing a gamble. If you played the game, you'd know this is flawed logic.

That leads me to the Ghouls. My oh my. While a melee class added to the Humans is highly ineffective,

If you played the wad, you'd know how incorrect this is.

ranged classes on the Ghouls is very effective... in empowering the Ghouls. The ranged attacks I'm referring to are those of Ice Fiend, Frostbite, and Defiler in specific. Now, when the humans employ their normal (and really only effective, mind you) tactics, they are immediately flushed out by these powerful ranged attacks.

Defiler's ranged attack is not good at all (and people keep asking for it to be buffed, even though we've hit a good equilibrium point where it's quite balanced) and IceFiend's ice can easily be jumped over/nullified by standing on any object to anyone who has a brain. It only punishes people who camp-- which was a major flaw in the first place.

In the chaos produced by Frostbite's dazzling attacks, the Ice Demon's very difficult to dodge icicle attack, and the obstruction provided by Defilers, the melee ghouls, who once had to deal with coordinated and deliberate fire from the Humans, can now come in and wreck havoc.

If what you said was actually true, then ghouls would just win 5-0 24/7 and no one would play our wad; but that doesn't happen.

Seeing as you've managed to avoid or 'filibust' the previous arguments on this point, let's look at another way shall we? Humans have quite a few classes with weak-to-medium long-range weapons, with a few close range weapons that cannot be reliably used as primary weapons (grenades, mines, etc.), and a melee class. Ghouls have quite a few powerful, fast melee classes with a few medium-to-powerful, long-ranged classes. Which sounds more powerful?

See above point, because if it was true ghouls would just win all the time. Even on maps that are jam packed like GVH16... ghouls still do lose and I've been part of countless 4-5's on that game. In-game experience disproves this.

You've claimed that you have 'added' 'unique' balance. Firstly, balance is not something you add.

Yes it is, you add something to shift the favor to a better equilibrium, therefore you add something to achieve balance. What is so hard to understand here?

One can claim to have 'semi-balance', where the sides of the scale are juuust about on the same level. However, what you've done is add a feather to one side of the scale, and a brick to the other.

GVH was like the brick, in our game... you don't see a huge team of ghouls destroying everyone. It's usually 4-5, which is the exact oppposite. In fact, most of the rounds come down to 1 v 1 at the end.
Very balanced indeed. The only time it sways in favor is when one team does really dumb moves like rushes in on GB traps, or if Ivan and myself + some other good Doomers go hunter and just kick everyone's behind.

Secondly, there is no such thing as 'unique' balance. As I said, balance is a state, with no denotation of specifics; in other words, 'balance' can refer to a feather on both sides of the scale, or a brick on both sides. Yes, you can make unique classes, but making unique classes doesn't make things balanced.

Incorrect, we added classes which actually fixed the massively broken equilibrium GVH didn't have. The defiler and Icefiend stop camping, Barbarian stops up close ghoul ass-kicking within reason... just enough so that it's anybody's game.
Nowadays, you can't even tell who is going to win because it's mainly skill based now. There's no "Oh choke IS going to win".

Now, previously, when others had brought up these issues, you have done a number of things. You have disregarded them as trolls, pointing to past actions of theirs which you define as trolling. Secondly, you have pointed to their own past mistakes, telling them they are in now position to make the above analyses. These counterarguments of yours are folly. When something is observable, as the above is, the person making the observation does not matter. For example, I have no past of project mismanagement or trolling on you and your co-developers. I have made the above observations just as those you have disregarded have.

The problem is their points are fundamentally flawed, and they act as if it's correct.
If these kids went into the science field, they'd be mincemeat within the first day. You should also take note of this.

Additionally, one of your most common counterpoints is that those judging your mod have not played it enough. You back this up by saying that either you or one of your co-developers are always or virtually always observing your server, therefore knowing who is on and who isn't. This is also a rather faulty claim. Firstly, it doesn't take 6 hours of gameplay to see the differences between NS and GvH; namely the changed attacks and new classes. If it is well known that GvH relied on the range vs. melee dynamic for balance, and it's obvious within 15 minutes of gameplay that the Ghouls have received powerful new ranged attacks, it isn't hard to make the step that this will hinder balance. If you want to require more information, damage outputs and speeds can be identified offline, over which you have no knowledge. Speaking of which, it's easy to garner empirical data without joining the server as well; for instance, your claim that you almost always end up with 4-5 score is hardly believable.

And you're basing your learning curve off of an outdated game on a new one with different dynamics.
Again if you played in game, you'd realize that 4-5 comes up almost all the time. Offline does nothing because I've removed useless bots from the game. GV is the only server that hosts GVH and I'm in there most of the time.
Hell, right now for the 5th map in a row, I hear the 4-4 theme playing.

You make these claims, yet you won't back them up.

I just debunked everything you said, game experience proves you wrong. People who play prove you wrong. The server itself proves you wrong, yet for some reason you keep the blinders on going "my lack of in game experience doesn't make my points any less valid", when in reality it is all that

You insist you cannot get the logs; if that is false, shame on you, and if it's true, stop making these claims, and stop threatening to search logs for users. You can't be believed.

I have access to the logs, but posting a 100 megabyte log on this forum not only compromises people's identity and probably breaks a few international laws with respect to internet privacy, it's also against the wishes of the administrator -- and I also believe doing so is just wrong.
All I ask for is a name so I can go verify in the logs how much time a person has played. That's all.
Give me the user name you played with then. Let me verify. Do this, prove me wrong.

You want to move the discussion to a 'neutral' IRC chat? That makes no sense at all, friend. Everyone who would want to participate in this discussion has access this forum (unless they've been banned, in which case we don't want them anyway). You feel like you're in 'enemy territory', that you're being assaulted by too many users, and that you haven't enough 'back up'? Nonsense, everyone on 'our' side has the same opinion. No other explanations other than self-interest exist for moving to your IRC.

Dear 'friend', IRC is a neutral ground with real time response. You can't sit back behind your computer and concoct a massive debacle like your points where. Flaws get shot down instantly, instead you have a circle jerk here of people who have nothing useful to add and just quote people going "yeah yeah!", people who take shots at us just because we debunk their friends, and non-neutral mods.
Anyone with common sense would not want to come here.

[Watermelon]

How come I can't post? My posts keep getting deleted by a mod or something

I'll go through that long post and give my reply.


@xColdxFusionx
You sound like a kid just riding of the coat-tails of people when you just go "yeah! yeah!" to everything.

You know if you keep flaming people like this you'll eventually get banned for a large period of time, right?

Getting banned here would be an utmost tragedy for myself and my wad.

[Tails]

I'm gonna ask again to please stop double posting o:

[Watermelon]

I'm gonna ask again to please stop double posting o:

It honestly is no big deal if someone does or not. I'd rather have double posts with useful information than useless posts like the one you just made which contribute nothing to the conversation.

[Tails]

Hi, you can just edit your original post with your added information.

[King Dumb]

Ivan first:

* I suppose what watermelon meant by "unique" balance was that the type of balance is unique to what it was in GvH. In old GvH it was ghouls rape on small maps, humans rape on big maps. Now, it's pretty equal I'd say.

You suppose? I'd like to here it from him. Again, I reiterate, in no way is balance unique, not even in comparison. Perhaps your new classes are unique, but I couldn't care less about that right now considering that does not result in balance. Then you've made two claims. The first is an enormous generalization that I'm sure everyone here and elsewhere who played GVH will say is not always true. The second is the opposite of the bulk of my post, which you attempt to rebuke in your next points.

* The point of the melee class is to supress the incoming mass of ghouls and slow them down or kill them, if possible. Mind you, many classes aren't IDEAL for an average player anyway, say Jitterskull. Barbarian has a unique gameplay which you need to spend probably more than 15 minutes to understand. I don't agree with you saying 15 minutes is enough to understand the changes. There are many reasons we added these, and they are there to be found as you play, not just "looking over" changelogs.

The point of the class and the classes ability to perform its intended role are different. Of course his purpose is to kill the Ghouls; that's the point of the mode. The Barbarian does not perform this role; my post explains why. You say classes aren't always IDEAL for the average player; by this I take you to mean that some classes are trickier than others and require more skill. Of course a class' potency increases in the hands of a skilled player. The problem is that the Barbarian is fundamentally ineffective, and the ghouls are fundamentally more likely to win. This is not the case when balance is present. Every class has different gameplay, that's why they are different classes. Again, your assertion that I don't understand your reasoning is pointless; the reality is what matter, and the reality is that the Humans are fundamentally outclassed by the Ghouls. I can look at or play as every class in 15 minutes. That's all I need to see that the Ghouls have been given powerful ranged attacks, which destroys the balance.

* The whole "melee vs ranged" thing is quite disturbing to be honest. It's monotone and clichés ridden. Apparently, people don't like getting used to changes so that's where the problem is based on mostly. Changes are everywhere, whether they are for the worse or better. You just try to get used to them. (Or delete NS from your harddrive, lol)

It's not monotone or cliché, it's the foundation of the mode. It has been identified many times by credible sources (if you need an example, check out CutmanMike's New Years blog post on this site) that the foundation of the balance of GvH is ranged vs. melee. It's not that your changes require 'getting used to' or that we are opposed to change. And indeed, some changes are bad and some are good. But in this case, our issue is that the changes that you have made and that are under your control are awful, and you refuse to recognize this. I won't get used to changes that ruin an otherwise fun gamemode when those changes are reversible.

* "Hardly believable" vs "Statistical Information", it's not hard to see that many witness such scores, otherwise they wouldn't say how they love the new tie music we put right ! (We should really take notes of scores of each round btw. (I know watermelon will actually do that))

Provide credible statistical information and I will concede this point. Until then, since we have no way acquiring credible statistical information currently seeing as you 'can't post the logs', only analysis of the gamemode can determine its balance. You've failed to prove to me that your mode is balanced; I've succeeded in proving it isn't.

[Dr. Freeman]

Please tell me your definition of neutral in this case.

Remember me? I'm that question you never answered.

[Bikdark]

Hey Watermelon, mind telling us your definition of troll again?

[IvanDobrovski]

Ivan first:

* I suppose what watermelon meant by "unique" balance was that the type of balance is unique to what it was in GvH. In old GvH it was ghouls rape on small maps, humans rape on big maps. Now, it's pretty equal I'd say.

You suppose? I'd like to here it from him. Again, I reiterate, in no way is balance unique, not even in comparison. Perhaps your new classes are unique, but I couldn't care less about that right now considering that does not result in balance. Then you've made two claims. The first is an enormous generalization that I'm sure everyone here and elsewhere who played GVH will say is not always true. The second is the opposite of the bulk of my post, which you attempt to rebuke in your next points.

* The point of the melee class is to supress the incoming mass of ghouls and slow them down or kill them, if possible. Mind you, many classes aren't IDEAL for an average player anyway, say Jitterskull. Barbarian has a unique gameplay which you need to spend probably more than 15 minutes to understand. I don't agree with you saying 15 minutes is enough to understand the changes. There are many reasons we added these, and they are there to be found as you play, not just "looking over" changelogs.

The point of the class and the classes ability to perform its intended role are different. Of course his purpose is to kill the Ghouls; that's the point of the mode. The Barbarian does not perform this role; my post explains why. You say classes aren't always IDEAL for the average player; by this I take you to mean that some classes are trickier than others and require more skill. Of course a class' potency increases in the hands of a skilled player. The problem is that the Barbarian is fundamentally ineffective, and the ghouls are fundamentally more likely to win. This is not the case when balance is present. Every class has different gameplay, that's why they are different classes. Again, your assertion that I don't understand your reasoning is pointless; the reality is what matter, and the reality is that the Humans are fundamentally outclassed by the Ghouls. I can look at or play as every class in 15 minutes. That's all I need to see that the Ghouls have been given powerful ranged attacks, which destroys the balance.

* The whole "melee vs ranged" thing is quite disturbing to be honest. It's monotone and clichés ridden. Apparently, people don't like getting used to changes so that's where the problem is based on mostly. Changes are everywhere, whether they are for the worse or better. You just try to get used to them. (Or delete NS from your harddrive, lol)

It's not monotone or cliché, it's the foundation of the mode. It has been identified many times by credible sources (if you need an example, check out CutmanMike's New Years blog post on this site) that the foundation of the balance of GvH is ranged vs. melee. It's not that your changes require 'getting used to' or that we are opposed to change. And indeed, some changes are bad and some are good. But in this case, our issue is that the changes that you have made and that are under your control are awful, and you refuse to recognize this. I won't get used to changes that ruin an otherwise fun gamemode when those changes are reversible.

* "Hardly believable" vs "Statistical Information", it's not hard to see that many witness such scores, otherwise they wouldn't say how they love the new tie music we put right ! (We should really take notes of scores of each round btw. (I know watermelon will actually do that))

Provide credible statistical information and I will concede this point. Until then, since we have no way acquiring credible statistical information currently seeing as you 'can't post the logs', only analysis of the gamemode can determine its balance. You've failed to prove to me that your mode is balanced; I've succeeded in proving it isn't.

Whether you succeeded in proving it or not can not be decided by the people who debate, but a neutral side. Come ask if this is balanced to the people in the server RIGHT NOW will you ? Oh wait, do you even play this mod lol.

* Barbarian is perfectly effective in the hands of a player who knows his concept. I suppose these things can't be found in 15 minutes only... for shame for shame.
* You do know this isn't the old GvH you played right ? This is a whole different take on it, and in this one there can be melee humans and ranged ghouls. If you still decide to IGNORE me and my claims that you need to play more to understand the concepts, then I will no longer waste my time even posting. Me and many others know how to play the "inefficient" classes and manage to carry their team, even. The so called overpowered defiler is also easily teamed up on, many people ask for buffs on it.
* If you think these changes "ruin" this "game mode", it's ok. As I know you haven't even played this for more than 15 minutes anyway.

[Bikdark]

* If you think these changes "ruin" this "game mode", it's ok. As I know you haven't even played this for more than 15 minutes anyway.

As far as I know, KD has spent at least a few hours on your server.

[Gummywormz]

Whether you succeeded in proving it or not can not be decided by the people who debate, but a neutral side. Come ask if this is balanced to the people in the server RIGHT NOW will you ? Oh wait, do you even play this mod lol.

Because people who like your mod and play it everyday are neutral.

Makes sense.