TMK4's Workshop (News regarding grad life and, oh, Saxton Hale too)

[tsukiyomaru0]

Welp, at least we have MrL to make it compatible with classes again.

I recently decided to try Class Saxton Hale once more/MrL version because i'm too forgiving in life.

I understand Gyroman had a long flight and that probably needed a nerf, but for it to last not even a second then it recharges over 10 seconds? What? Quickman wasn't even touched; it's like it's purposely being made bad. It isn't balanced compatibility it's unnecessary broken compatibility that shouldn't even exist.

For everything that is good and amazing do NOT even touch this with classes.

Added the fact that his "rebalance" is crashing (apparently ACS-wise) more often than unbalanced one.

[MrL1193]

Welp, at least we have MrL to make it compatible with classes again.

I recently decided to try Class Saxton Hale once more/MrL version because i'm too forgiving in life.

I understand Gyroman had a long flight and that probably needed a nerf, but for it to last not even a second then it recharges over 10 seconds? What?

I know now that I nerfed him too much (and I have planned to buff him). I was erring on the side of caution because I knew that if I failed to nerf a class enough, it would cause far more trouble than if I nerfed the class too much.

Quickman wasn't even touched

...Excuse me? Quick Man's speed dropped from 1.35/1.33 to 1.15/1.13. His dash recharges at 1/3 the rate it used to. And Quick Boomerangs don't cause hit stun any more. A very few people have claimed that he's still too fast, but I haven't seen him causing nearly as much trouble as he used to.



Really, I'm starting to think more and more that the balance issues are just an excuse to complain about the Classes, when really, it's mainly because of personal taste that some people don't play modes with Classes. It's the only reason I can think of that people would just not care at all what I do to try to fix Class SH, or even dismiss it without even trying out the changed version to see if it's more fun. Perhaps I'm just a fool for ever thinking that Gyro Man and friends really were the reason some people hated the mode...

The one thing in Saxton Hale that probably doesn't mix well with classes on a fundamental level is running away from Slender Man to win (though it seems like people aren't too fond of him whether there are classes or not).

Regarding the crashes, all I can say is that the only ACS changes I made were to remove Ra Thor's hypnotism item from his inventory, raise the boss HP cap, and tweak the health scaling of certain bosses. That's it.

[Hallan Parva]

Regardless, Tails still said he didn't want Classes to have anything to do with his version of VSH, so could you be a dear and listen to him for once?

[TailsMK4]

After reading the posts I see in the topic, I think I shall take a more lenient approach to MrL's work. The fact with how little experience you've had overall with coding, MrL, and the fact you made the combo playable is respectable. I am just considering the long term effects of doing such a combination, and I think the community, for now, will be better off without the combo. I only ask that you please do not try to combo this with Rebirth. There were some fingers being pointed at for the decline of players with the game, and a few landed in my direction with the Overhaul being combined with Classes. I am only trying to soften or perhaps reverse the recent turn of events.

I would have been fine if Classes Saxton (even Classes in general), wasn't constantly played all the time. At this time, I am looking at Doomseeker, and around 20 out of almost 40 players are playing YD's Classes (5 of the other ones are doing Tea Party, but those are beta testers). I am hosting three servers myself, including my Overhaul without classes, which only Survival Mission Mode has had activity recently. It is not entirely Saxton Hale's fault for such limited choices in servers, but I will admit it has some impact. Instead, I hope to attract more players that have had some negative experiences with either Balrog's or Lego's Saxton Hale to try out Rebirth when it is out. I also am, however, promoting other gamemodes, and I also intend to do more with CutManMike's Mission Mode (with perhaps Lego's extra classes as well), so that Saxton Hale won't be the only thing gathering attention. I am doing my part to help make the overall MM8BDM game more enjoyable, but I cannot do it without players hoping for change. All that I ask of you guys is to not think of YD's Classes as a base for every fun activity online. I have even had a new player ask to combine Mission Mode, which is meant to be like the original games but with 3D levels, with YD's Classes. That's how bad the Classes fever is. All of this is why I am taking a firm stance against Classes.

[Koal]

Well nobody really attempts to host and/or play TLMS, LMS or CTF so it doesn't help that I would naturally defer to Saxton hale classes because I at least find it enjoyable when people aren't trying to stall the ever loving shit out of the game. That and I cannot really stand the feel of vanilla gameplay. I can only really tolerate it in TLMS and LMS mode but its practically unbearable in DM where its just run run run and shoot shoot shoot. Classes offer's a way to mix it up so that its not so mindnumbingly boring and insufferable. But I do agree that there comes a point when classes should stop and other gamemodes should take over.


And because I apparently cannot say this enough: ITS THE SAXTON HALES THEMSELVES THAT ARE AT FAULT!

We have four hale's that play almost identically aside from their rages! All the melee hales are easy to stall because they have no way of ever catching a Toadman or Quickman that's decided to stall the game, wasting everyone's time and in general making everyone loath and despise Saxton hale classes even more. If you guys would just give the existing melee saxton hales a ranged secondary while keeping their melee primary and start introducing more ranged hales there wouldn't be such a huge issue with the game mode. The problem will practically solve itself and we wouldn't need these unnecessary nerf's. Cloudman takes FOUR lightning strikes now to recharge his energy bar and poor gyro is practically useless now thanks to being nerfed so heavily. Springman and Crashman's jump nerf's were completely unnecessary as well as Darkman1's unwarranted jet nerf! Try fixing the Hale's instead of trying to fix the classes is all I'm really saying.

[The Killer Nacho]

I kind of agree and disagree with Koal. I guess you can make custom Hales for Classes, but the thing I'm most worried about is that the community will push to have a bunch of ranged monstrosities that will make the Hales overpowered and kill classic Hale in the end anyway. If Overhaul is up (and since Classes Hale is always booming with popularity), I join that each and every single time over Classes Hale. I only join Classes Hale if there's nothing else besides Co-op or Vanilla (both of which I don't care for). What I'm saying is that it's a self-multiplying issue and allowing Classes Hale to be allowed at all may not be in your best interest if you want variety. The community goes through phases of game modes that are either present or absent: you allowing Classes Overhaul to exist in the first place has started a craze that isn't going away by asking nicely. It's borderline naïve to think that such a popular thing is going to decline by asking nicely; this hasn't worked in the past.

tl;dr: Community catches Classes fever and doesn't let go; don't let it happen and then think the community is flexible to change.

[Koal]

If you are referring to Morshu, he was already absurdly overpowered to begin with. And the classes actually stood a pretty good chance against the cave duo before the nerf. And the development team was taking suggestions for Hales, at least while Balrog was around. I don't know if they are doing that anymore.
But yes classes fever has taken hold and its here to stay, for better or for worse. The shark's have had a taste of blood and they will hunger for more. I firmly believe not making rebirth compatible with classes will ultimately cause it to be a flop as such, at least until the community gets sick of classes which might be a while at this rate.

[TailsMK4]

I was going to wait to discuss this with my dev team, but I think it's time you guys voice your opinions once again. Here and now will determine the future fate of the current hales in the game. I would like for you guys to kind of treat this like a poll. There have been some comments about a lack of variety with a few of the hales, and I intend for each of the hales to at least be modified in some way. You have two options for each of the hales in the game. One option is talking about your support for the hale being in, and if there are any changes you think would benefit the hale. If you would rather the hale be removed entirely from the game, just explain your reason for doing so. I will consider all of your comments upon making my decisions about each of the hales. Here is the list of hales up for debate, and this is the last time (promise) I will also mention the two previously removed hales:


Currently in:

Saxton Hale
Ghost of Starman
Cave Johnson
Christian Brutal Sniper
Ninja Spy
Ra Thor
Gilgamesh
Slenderman
Scrooge McDuck
Morshu
Seeman and Seeldier
Quote and Curly


Currently in, but not debatable:

Captain Falcon (lots of work has already been done on him, and he is turning out quite nicely)


Currently out:

NeoDS
Pissed Off Roll


This is the last time I will bring these hales up all at once. Begin the debate!

[ZeStopper]

Definitely keep in Falcon, his new work will make him more than the average/basic OHK-Hale.

[tsukiyomaru0]

Remove Captain Falcon and bring back NeoDS, but change him so his dash and super jump are executed by items alone, while his altfire becomes his rage.

[Tfp BreakDown]

I have a question about morshu. will his playstyle change or will it be the same as before to now?

[Magnet Dood]

Remove Captain Falcon and bring back NeoDS, but change him so his dash and super jump are executed by items alone, while his altfire becomes his rage.

Why the fuck would anyone re-add a forgotten and embittered Cutstuff Member-based hale that's a clone of Zero and remove CAPTAIN FALCON

Like geez

I'd just say rework Ghost of Starman to have something that isn't a stupid slash attack. Maybe give him PK Astro Crush as his main weapon, and when he receives damage he can do the suicide blow up thing with the countdown that takes out some of his health.

Also I'd prefer if Cave Johnson actually SHOT his lemons instead of lobbing them around. He's probably the weakest of the bunch.

And make Seeman and Seeldier Gemini Men again if they aren't already.

And rework Morshu because he's basically KY Bombman

And maybe take out RCBS and Scrooge

All the rest are fine

[Ceridran]

And maybe take out RCBS and Scrooge

Scrooge does Saxton's Job much better, I don't see the problem with him. As for CBS, yes, he can go.

Saxton Hale should definitely go. Again, Scrooge does it better. Especially plus the fact that "Saxton Hale Mode" is a name that I am plain SICK of hearing unless it's talking about TF2.

Remove Captain Falcon and bring back NeoDS, but change him so his dash and super jump are executed by items alone, while his altfire becomes his rage.

You're saying that one of the bosses, which is currently being reworked into something among the levels of M.Bison in the uniqueness factor, should be tossed out, and bring back him?

[Koal]

Keep in Gilgamesh provided you can work in some sort of ranged attack for him that won't break him completely.

Scrap Saxton Hale. I honestly don't know how he can be redeemed. People just flee from him automatically when he uses his rage so unless his rage makes him faster ALONG with being invulnerable there is no point in keeping him.

Give Ghost of Starman a new primary attack and he should be solid. There is no sense in him even having a slash based attack anyways.

Make Falcon slightly faster and able to jump slightly higher and he should be perfectly fine. The fact that his attack functions like charge kick sets him a breed apart from all the other god damn melee hales.

Perhaps give Scrooge the ability to throw gold bars or bags of money at people or something? Otherwise he's perfectly fine.

NERF MORSHU'S PRIMARY. My god the fact that he can kill 3 people at any given time with just his primary alone is absurd. Nerf the damage of his primary, give him a new attack or two. And see if you can't make his rage more useful because right now it doesn't do a whole lot.

Christian brutal sniper has the same issue as Gilgamesh. Give him some form of ranged attack or something that will separate the two more. And make the arrows from his rage move slightly faster as it is quite difficult to hit moving targets with them.

I think Cave Johnson should be able to switch between firing and lobbing his lemon's. It'll give him more versatility at his disposal with out having to really add anything new.

Slenderman either needs to be completely reworked from the ground up or scrapped completely. I like the concept, but it was VERY poorly executed.

Ra Thor is a tricky one. If we are going based on Classes Saxton hale then he will need to have something to compensate for his lack of hypnotism. Perhaps an altfire that'll allow him to draw opponents in like Dustman's altfire does? If we are going based off of Vanilla Saxton then he really doesn't need any changes as Hypnotism sets him apart from all the other hales.

I've really got no suggestion's on how to change the See duo, but I honestly don't see many problems with them at the moment.

Quote and Curly are perfectly fine as is. They are welcome to stay.

[TailsMK4]

Koal's post was the kind I was hoping to get from you guys. Please talk about all of the hales in your post if you can, please. Also, I am not accepting suggestions about Falcon since he has an almost completely revised movement set. Koal's suggestions are really the only ones I can work with right now.

EDIT: I also can work a little bit with Dood's post, but I need more opinions.