TMK4's Workshop (News regarding grad life and, oh, Saxton Hale too)

[Koal]

And of course I talk about every Hale EXCEPT Ninja Spy.

Give Ninja Spy the ability to throw Shuriken's. And maybe even give him the item use smoke bombs similar to what the Assassin had in the megaman Mafia gamemode. Those are the only suggestions I can think up for him otherwise.

[Zomo.exe]

In the time that I've played 8BDM, I have seen a lot of things (which is not long, mind you), but with time I start to understand or basically relearn how a game is played because after all, this is doom, right? With that said, I have my thoughts on the existing bosses:

Gilgamesh: I agree with Koal here. He cannot for the life of himself deal with opponents from a distance. Perhaps something not as powerful as his melee attack could be put in? Also, this guy is a heavy guy, so as far as HP goes, his current formula is okay.

Saxton Hale: Personally one of the few hales I dread being. Why, you ask? Raging just makes everyone run like a wuss and laugh away while you usually cannot touch them. I'm not suggesting something as radical as 100% scrapping him, but I'd rather see a slight speed buff on him or speed nerf on everyone else during the first 10-15 seconds of the rage. The way TF2 handles it works quite nicely; that would be a good starting point on how to remodel it.

Ghost of Starman: I'm no Earthbound fan, but even I can say that a simple pimp slap attack will not suffice. The guy has some PSI abilities, why not let him have a few of those (obviously don't make them too OP), and maybe a slight rage nerf would be best.

CF: Because this guy is getting remodeled anyways, I don't have much to say except for the fact that his rage makes him vulnerable as hell. I would love to get a sneak peek of it though. <3

Scrooge: Whatever Saxton can do, this guy can do BETTER. He's fine as far as I'm concerned, but damn dat cane... '_'

Morshu: I'll try not to be too bias (or however it's spelled) here. My solution to his overpowered primary would be to tone it down some and come up with a new rage, one that preferably doesn't achieve more than making everyone just get the fuck out of there. The guy may have 16 seconds worth of voice acting, but something can be done I hope.

CBS: Almost a carbon copy of Gilgamesh minus his HP and rage. He also suffers from range syndrome, so again, a ranged weapon that of course doesn't OHKO but would make people think twice before trolling this boss would solve this issue nicely.

Cave Johnson: I miss the hard mode version where his lemons went where you shot them and not just bounce around. Not much else to say, except hard mode should definitely make a return. Bosses need to be a challenge, not Tsuki-friendly. Finding a balance between challenge and ability to beat a boss is hard to do; I realize this, which is kinda why I was interested in asking about helping with testing current boss changes and new bosses.

Slenderman: For a melee hale, he DOES NOT do justice to the real thing. Also another boss I dread being because he can be treated like a punching bag in the right circumstances. Either give the attack more reach and in more than one direction or just do a fresh start.

Ra Thor: Because I play both classes and non-classes, it's hard to give a neutral opinion. However, I will do this as best as I can. His Hypno ability can easily be wasted if you don't aim it right or use it on the wrong people. Should it hit however, his minions should have a bit more HP and their melee attacks be replaced with a weak yet insistent ranged attack, kinda like Curly's machine gun perhaps? That way, they aren't basically punching bags especially with the last survivor. As far as classes go, I can see why hypnotize was essentially disabled.

Seeman/Seeldier: They seem to be fine as is; however I do notice at time that one of the pair's rages can get by unnoticed, and can surprise the hell out of other players (this has happened to me definitely as Seeman at least a few times now), so hopefully Rebirth will solve that bug.

Ninja Spy: I think you said he was redone too in some way. I do kinda miss his old name/theme and voiceclips somewhat, lol. Other than that, would like to see his changes before giving feedback, as what I say now would be somewhat redundant if he was gonna have a big change in Rebirth.

Quote/Curly: Also fine as is. Sometimes I just wish Curly was almost on par with Quote with his primary weapon, because he's only truly dangerous with an army of clones. This could be looked into later, but not now.

As for the removed hales...

Pissed-Off Roll: I believe she was removed because of the fact that after so many rages were stacked upon each other, she could basically outheal any damage taken and probably end up with the HP she started with, if not more. An obvious nerf would solve this issue, such as not being able to use a rage again until the previous one has finished, or at least cut the amount of HP healed by the rage.

NeoDS: I cannot judge this one fairly, because in all honesty... I HAVE NEVER FOUGHT THIS BOSS NOR BEEN IT! I would love to see what he can do sometime on a closed server so I can give real insight. Even so, I wouldn't be against bringing it back for the purpose of history; all I'd say is just make him rarer than the others to be fair because he existed in obsolete versions of this mode.


Now that I gave proper feedback, I am excited for the first release and to be able to help with future testing in some way. In the meantime, maybe I should try learning about Doom's coding. >.>

[Magnet Dood]

If you'd like an in-depth review of this mod's plethora of bosses, then I shall provide.

The problem I find with them is that every single one (give or take 2 or 3) have a slash attack and a "super cool" bonus attached. I really think that the bosses should all play completely differently instead of using the same old copypasta for each boss.

I would honestly not like Saxton Hale to leave. He's a fairly basic boss who actually SHOULD have the regular super melee attack. I'd honestly just think of something different for his rage (maybe he can get into a kangaroo suit or something since's he's Australian and get higher jumping, increased speed and a Comet Punch like attack, which is faster to fire but deals less damage).

What I would not mind leaving is the name Saxton Hale. Seriously, he's one guy in a mod of about 20. Just call it Boss Brawl or something- anything is better than Saxton Hale.

Cave Johnson... I honestly love Cave, but he is weak as all hell. The lemons have a ridiculously large cooldown and are basically a Napalm Bomb clone. It's nearly impossible to kill a guy one-on-one unless you tank damage and pull out the rage. I'd honestly make it so that his shots travel in a straight line but are effected by gravity. This would still give him range while not making him lob around easily avoidable projectiles all while he's hoping someone's dumb enough to hit them.

Ra Thor is a pretty bad boss with a novel idea that's executed rather poorly. As cool as the hypnosis is, what does it really accomplish other than making mini-bosses with literally the same attack with less damage? A cooler idea would be to lock them with the weapon they had when hypnotized with unlimited ammo, giving a bit of strategy to it. One hypnotized with Spark Shock would be devestatingly effective. Of course, should the weapon be ridiculously overpowered or just plain dumb, the fist can be subbed in.

Ninja Spy is a fairly neat boss. He's another slash guy, but the addition of lives makes for some interesting gameplay. His invisibilty thing is a cool idea, and ultimately he makes it work. I would like for him to do ninja things (smoke bombs), but as is, he's pretty good.

Ghost of Starman will be the last I'll go into tonight. Again, pretty damn boring. GoS didn't even have a melee attack in Earthbound- he attacked with beefed up PK attacks, and his giant explosion was definitely devastating. Perhaps the entire battle could be on a timer, and if time runs out, a massive explosion kills all survivors left, much like GoS's strongest attack. Otherwise, he could recieve that as a rage, which sends an explosion at a large radius but also sacrifices his health. He should recieve a smaller version of his current rage as his main weapon.

That's all for now.

Oh, and old ones. PO'd Roll and NeoDS deserve their current spots. It wasn't so much that fighting Roll was a pain; the idea as a whole was just really stupid.

And NeoDS was just removed because he acted like a pissballtoid

[Hallan Parva]

okay

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Saxton Hale
The big cheese himself. I'd be fine with Mr. Hale staying in with a few tweaks; as the original melee boss, I would be more than content in letting him keep his place on the throne. My main problem is his rage; in every version of VSH thus far, the rage is either ungodly amounts of broken (full invuln? the fuck?) or dreadful amounts of useless (hitstun reduction? not even full hitstun armor or a defense buff?) leaving people to write off Mr. Hale as "poor".

I'd actually take a cue from Lego's VSH, as the rage system is extremely similar to how Mr. Hale's rage worked in Team Fortress 2 (read: the origin of this entire mod). He got complete hitstun armor and a slight defense boost, similar to what he has now, but he also stunned everyone around him in a somewhat generous radius. The effects of stun are similar to what we call Time Slow over here in 8BDM v3, so just set up a custom painstate with appropriate slowing effects. Personally I'd also cure the last survivor of any stun they might have, and make them invulnerable to future stunning; however, they still take scratch damage from the initial rage blast, and that would stop them in place for a split second so Mr. Hale can still pop his rage as a recovery tool.

Also, even if he doesn't have a custom skin yet, make him stand out a little. Hell, if nobody else steps up, I'd take 20 minutes of my time to slap a damn fedora on Guts Man's head just so you can tell who's playing as the Australian wonder.

Ghost of Starman
Starman is... special. He's from Earthbound, and being one of the only Cutopians in existence who has full access to a SNES emulator and has still never played Earthbound, I can't really say what direction to take him in. However, I do know two things: one, that using a melee claw attack is stupid; and two, that apparently he can only use various flavours of PK Starstorm. I can suggest making his attack "shoot" a meteor like Proto Strike (e.g. he throws a single meteor of Astro Crush at people, with nerfed damage of course) and keeping his rage mostly the same, but I'm sure some Earthbound veteran around here could offer more insight. I'm indifferent over him staying or getting the boot, but an entire boss based around non-lethal Astro Crush on tap... it sounds interesting at the very least.

Cave Johnson
Fair warning, Cave is tied for my personal favorite boss, so there might be a little bias. Ahem... anyway, I really like Cave, underpowered attack and all. I'd love for the lemon to have more consistent damage (and on that note, no more OHKOs) so being caught on fire doesn't determine your fate with a freaking roulette wheel. Actually, why does the fire slow you down? I know you're probably using core coding somewhere here but couldn't you give the player a speed boosting item to cancel it out? With more consistent damage and lower damage overall, I'd also appreciate a rate of fire increase for the default lemons.

Most people think the problem is the lemon's behavior, whereas I humbly disagree. The bouncing lemons are similar to Napalm Bomb, yes, but they let you do lots of cool trick shots and sneak attacks that a boring "fly straight forward" projectile wouldn't let you perform. Instead, I suggest an increase to the rate of fire. My problem is how you can only shoot one lemon every ten years, with even more of a delay than most bosses' melee attacks. Since the lemons don't OHKO on direct hit and aren't spastic in their damage output, doubling the shot rate wouldn't completely break Cave. On the contrary, a faster firing rate would make Cave easier to use in crowds and improve his one-on-one dueling performance.

Christian Brutal Sniper
... I'm sorry, but I can't really help you out on this one. In the original TF2 version of VSH, he used his Tribalman's Shiv as a melee and the Huntsman for his rage. In general, TF2 snipers really don't have much else going for them. Other than change the rage into a different sniper rifle or change what weapon he has for a melee, a Sniper's only other options are the Razorback and other back-equipped shields, the SMG (basically hitscan Bass Buster), and Jarate... which makes soaked targets take all damage in the form of mini-crits (x1.5 damage). I really don't know how to make this boss stand out, and as much as I hate to say this (especially with DarkAura cleaning him up and all-around improving his graphics) I wouldn't mind if he was let go.

Ninja Spy
... I'll get back to you for this one.

Ra Thor
The idea of hypnotizing other players is a novel concept, but it's so poorly executed that I hardly remember that's supposed to be Ra Thor's defining trait. The range on the hypnotism item is, for a lack of a better term, absolute shit. I can Slash Claw people midair easier than I can hypnotize an AFK player while I'm strafing past them. I only have five of these items in total regardless of whether or not I miss, and with the pissy range only one (maybe two) actually take effect, on average. Even assuming all five hypnotism items work, I have only succeeded in taking a player's health, doubling it to 200, and giving them 50-damage Charge Kicks without the Charge Kick boost. Hell, you take more damage trying to hypnotize someone than your minions can sponge up for you, so it's no surprise that most people (including myself) just stick to the awesome ripping black hole attack. Really, the black hole is the only cool thing I can mention about Ra Thor; even the rage is shit. Hell, the rage even looks like shit. Watch, mortals! Cower in fear as I slowly jitter forward while spawning a Mirror Buster in front of me! Yeah, how about no. I'd love to see Ra Thor in the mod, but nowhere near his current iteration.

These take a while to write up so I'm pausing here at the halfway point.
The other six bosses are coming up... right after these commercial messages.

[Rozark]

Morshu: I'll try not to be too bias (or however it's spelled) here. My solution to his overpowered primary would be to tone it down some and come up with a new rage, one that preferably doesn't achieve more than making everyone just get the fuck out of there. The guy may have 16 seconds worth of voice acting, but something can be done I hope.

Morshu's primary isn't really overpowered, you just NEED TO GET OUT OF THE WAY AND NOT CLUSTER UP.
Also, the current rage is useful because you just said it: people get the fuck out of there. It fixes his weakpoint which is pretty damn creative if I do say so myself.

Also stop judging his rage and pretty much ANYTHING until the adjustments I've said literally 16 times now come in. He already has changes coming; stop suggesting, at least until the changes are already in THEN suggest after that.
Saying that that many times is really starting to get annoying

[Zomo.exe]

Oh, I must have missed the memo about Morshu being changed with the 1st release; perhaps I was way too harsh with a neutral opinion even though he is one of my favorite bosses to play as. After all, they're only as good as one can play them...

In either case, I'll wait til it's actually released and come back here to post real insight on all bosses if needed because of the fact that one cannot judge what one has not seen or experienced. I guess I'm just irked a bit that Morshu's rage very rarely gets a kill, if that.

[Ceridran]

I'l try.

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Saxton Hale
Scrooge does his job better, and the rage isn't the same as it's supposed to be, in which he scares everybody, slowing them. Oh, and please change the name from this guy's name. Boss Brawl sounds nice. Or maybe something more creative.
Verdict: Scrap
Ghost of Starman
Shoot a meteor straight from him. Doesn't have to be instagib. Can probably be charged for extra damage, but slowing him based on how long he has been charging. It might be easier to hit with than Quote's lasers, so it seems fair.
Verdict: Rework
Cave Johnson
He's essentially OHKO, but his enemies just seem to linger for a little bit. I wouldn't know what to do with him.
Verdict: Keep or Rework
Christian Brutal Sniper
My problem with this guy is that he's essentially a direct rip from the original Saxton Hale mode, and keep in mind, pretty much every boss in there is a clone of Saxton Hale with a different rage.
Verdict: Scrap or Replace.
Ninja Spy
Same issue as CBS: direct rip, original was a clone, etc. Replace or scrap, and even if he follows the #1 rule of ninjas, you should avoid most ninjas. In general, stealth is hard to match with revealing voiceclips.
Verdict: Scrap or Replace.
Ra Thor
He's mostly fine to me, but the hypno is rediculous. If there's a new way it could work, that would be neat, I have nothing in mind.
Verdict: Keep, possibly rework.
Gilgamesh
Tone down the RNG, please. A way to do this is that he switches between his weapons either by a second item, or by holding down M1. The weapon won't be invisible, though. The quake is fairly good, but if you can fix it for extra stability, due to the fact it never activates and disables you at times, it's fairly good. Oh, and don't bring back Excalipoor.
Verdict: Rework.
Slenderman
He's not even a game character, and encourages deathrush. It's a pain to play as this guy within a time limit. He should go faster while invisible at least.
Verdict: Scrap or Replace.
Scrooge McDuck
Does Saxton Hale's job better, has a jump attack, altogether satisfying. If he can get Huey, Dewey, Louie, and Launchpad McQuack, in which would have smaller models, allowing for  a deadlier rage, I think that'd work nicely.
Verdict: Keep, improve rage with smaller units for extra mobility.
Morshu
He's getting reworked as far as I know, so yeah.
Seeman and Seeldier
It's just a pair of two Saxton Hale clones. Both instakill, only form of teamwork is distraction which hardly happens. I could probably think up something involving Shulk and Reyn, a better melee duo. Problem is that they would be really heavy on item use in order to work properly.Verdict: Replace.
Quote and Curly
They're perfect. Not much to say.
Verdict: Keep.

[tsukiyomaru0]

Now, going to a general analysis using someone's template:

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General
Melee hales' projectiles needs rework. If projectiles are spawned in X and a projectile's height is Y, the whole projectiles covers X to X+Y. I have a proposal to work around this, but I need to know when next testing is up to see if this has been fixed or not without my assistance.
Saxton Hale
He's the most stable, if it wasn't for full invulnerability. It is not ALL bad, but could be toned down time-wise, to compensate for his high health. Alternatively, his rage could briefly slow down anyone near him and giving near-full invul (halves damage and removes recoil).
Ghost of Starman
His PK Starstorm is the most troublesome aspect. Sometimes it will OHKO, sometimes it won't, and it will always hold you up and kill you either way. Of course, this one rage had worse times (like "frozen" Starman or fast raging starman). Plus he is a lot fast, which can make it a hopeless fight. A punishment for being too fast would be nice.
Cave Johnson
Two words: Scrap Burn. Really, that's the WORST aspect of him, because: 1) the burn effect may pass on to a nearby player that has not even been hurt at all, causing them to lose 50% of health in a second and 2) causes an unpleasant glitch if the player's "corpse" takes another hit. If you don't want to scrap the lemon burn, alright, contact me and I'll make a different "burn" system. Although it won't kill from the burn, it will be able to reduce players health greatly during it. Also buffing his fire rate a bit and completely scrapping the OHKO potential would be nice.
Christian Brutal Sniper
Basic idea: change his rage system. The change I had in mind is that, after activated, he would change colors to show he is in rage and an ammo counter would appear. Then, rather than time, the sniper would have to count his shots, and the rage level would remain full until all the arrows were used, thus preventing ragestacking while preserving his rage's utility. Perhaps crank it up a bit so the last arrow may have a small exploding radius?
Ninja Spy
Change his lives system. He gets one health that is the sum of his two lives. If his health falls below 50%, he gets teleported to a random spawnpoint and made invisible and invulnerable for five seconds top. Unlike what was said, he should NOT play like a "true ninja". If we want a Real Ninja, we better bring Ninja Wily in instead.
Ra Thor
Cause him to slowdown during his black hole attack and force it to respect the aim (the black hole appears in front of him even if you aim up, it seems. Also, either scrap Hyper Dash or Hypno, because he does not need two "rages".
Gilgamesh
Honestly? Look at his sprite. He's based on his "unmorphed" form by his sprite. So, why not respect that? His main could be a slash with his spear that also casts Aera (Tornado Hold wind moving like Ice Wave, causes low damage, but lifts and stuns the victims). His rage could be him halving damages to himself, nullifying recoil and gaining a speed boost for a limited time, just as he does in the game he came from (Actually, he casts Shell, Protect and Haste on himself when his health drops too low). His Super Jump should be the ability Jump, which would behave a bit like Scrooge's Super Jump... Except, instead of Insta killing, it should cause a decent damage (3 or more hit kill) in an area around him. Once again, think: he is not morphed
Slenderman
Remove.
Scrooge McDuck
Change Rage to be less abusive in area denial and reach. Perhaps have him summon a Gizmoduck to help him, but only have one Gizmoduck at a time.also that Super Jump is ABSURD.
Morshu and Captain Falcon
Either be more direct on HOW they are being reworked or just axe them.
Seeman and Seeldier
Remove, because they have the bad habit of appearing in small or simple maps. If not removing, at least change their rage: Fire Circle should behave like PK Startstorm, but with explosions where he is and... No meteor. And Death Rush could be just a strong explosive punch in front of the Seeman?
Quote and Curly
Opposed to what was said, they are NOT perfect. I'll point out why: first, there's Quote's charge. It's easy to get the L1 Charge attack and spam it for easy kills, because it leechs health LIGHTNING FAST. Second, Quote's Super Missile. I don't recall they flying insanely fast in the game, but rather smoothly gaining speed in the first second (and there's NO telling he still has his rage on). Perhaps he could also gain the same ammo system I suggested to Sniper. Curly is seriously HELL to play, because she KEEPS BOUNCING EVERY TIME YOU SHOOT 1º DOWN THE CENTER! If anything, give her L1 Nemesis instead. Also, Curly's rage is complete B.S. The clones aren't all easy to kill, they damage harder than Curly and she can spawn them without you knowing, because she used her rage back there but saved to spawn the clones LATER. Perhaps have her rage be the protective bubble, which could protect her from certain types of damage.

And, like Seemen, they have the terrible habit of appearing in small maps.

[CHAOS_FANTAZY]

I feel obliged to toss my two cents into the ring.  Assume that if I don't mention it, I feel I have nothing to say about it.

Saxton Hale
It is my belief that every Boss Battles mod like this should have a simplified, down-to-earth sort of Boss to it, not necessarily as their mascot, but some form of pick-up-and-play sort of character.  Saxton Hale fits this archetype rather nicely.  I think he gets too much of a bad rap for being the template for everyone else's lame, unoriginal boss (With Cave Johnsons here and there).  I think we should keep him—for the time being, anyway.
Ghost of Starman, Christian Brutal Sniper, and Ninja Spy
And these are the copycats.  OHKO melees all around and an Astro Crush clone, an OHKO range, and a lame smoke bomb as their rages.  In TF2 the differences were actually somewhat important.  Here it makes for simplistic, boring clone-based gameplay.  Unless they're rebuilt from the ground up, I say replace them.  The latter would probably be easier.
Ra Thor
All I really have to say is an echo of what was already said.  The hypnotism needs work if he's going to keep it at all.  Other than that, my only comment is, perhaps we should have more Mega Man hales.
Slenderman
A lot of the time I don't even want to fight this guy when he appears.  The fight goes on for so long and it's not worth running away from him or shooting him.  Might be a good idea to give Slender—and timer bosses like him in general—the axe.
Quote and Curly
Even though they don't stand up to my original idea for them (Which, looking back on it, really wasn't so great), I am quite pleased with these bosses.  As it stands they're probably one of my favorite bosses in the mod.

[TailsMK4]

All right, I will now say at this point that we are past the halfway mark as far as work for the first official release. We still have a lot of testing and editing to do, but at least we are at the point where we can start reworking the bosses. Keep the opinions coming, as I will consider every opinion when it's time to decide on each boss. I do want to mention something for those that are considering making hales: I would hold off on doing so until the first release, since the hale template is going to change a bit, since the rage system will be getting revised, among perhaps some other little details.

[Magnet Dood]

Time to put in five more. Just so you know, I would like GoS to stay in, because he's one of the few bosses I enjoy a lot.

Slenderman: I don't know about you guys, but I honestly do like Slender. He's easily one of the best jump-scare guys out of the lot. I'd just fix his invisibility thing- why not use Yurei's kind of invisibility from GvH NES? Also, his no jump thing where he just moved up to wherever was a much better idea than giving him a super jump. Makes you feel like you really can't hide. I'd prefer to have him stay.

Robo Christian Brutal Sniper: This guy is a pain to play as. I feel like his sword never hits anything and you basically HAVE to rely on the sniper shots, which requires you to take a million points of damage to use a one-minute rage. He's just not worth keeping- there's enough TF2 bosses already.

Seedlier and Seeman: I've got a soft spot for the See duo. I do like it when they run around, shouting "See" everywhere while totally annihilating everyone who dares stand in their path. They're also copy-pastes of regular old Saxton, but since it's a duo battle it makes it more enjoyable as a whole. Thus, these guys should stay- I'd only prefer if their rages were changed. As it stands, they're way too good to warrant both being available.

AND CHANGE THEM BACK TO GEMINI MEN ARGLE BLARGLE

Gilgamesh: Here's the boss that 45% of the community would most likely name the worst to fight against, only because of his bodacious Rocket Punch. Unfortunately, taking that away takes away his only chance at killing anyone who isn't standing right next to him. The guy can take hits like a bulletproof wall, but he's slow as all hell and can barely attack for his life. Last Stand was novel, but futile, approach to fixing this problem. I'd honestly prefer for him to stay as is, if he's to stay in at all. Currently, he's a paradox- he's literally the worst boss of the bunch with the most broken rage still in the game (looking at you, POR)

Finally, Morshu: I have to love Morshu as much as it might piss Gizmo off. He's one of two (technically three) bosses that doesn't copy the regular old formula and thankfully branches out. As welcoming as it is, it doesn't mean he can get off with being an absolute clone of KY's Bomb Man class with slower firing rate and atomic bombs (at least you added the super jump that Lad desired so much). Why the idea to add Lamp Oil and Rope to his moveset was never added astounds me. I'd really like to keep him in, but he needs a serious retool to be any good.

[Isaac940]

I know I don't play this that much anymore, but if you're looking for opinions or ideas, I have a few crazy ones.

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General:
-Half the reason I usually don't play this is the fact that once you go beyond basically the low to mid teens in playercount, the Hales just seem to get too much health. Maybe slash health some and replace it with other small misc buffs (faster rage generation, faster refire rate, etc.)

-You mention a revision to the rage system, and I'm hoping its to one where rage points generated is based on damage rather than number of hits. Currently, it seems like if you want to be successful you need to use mainly things like Hard Knuckle or Crystal Eye which do large damage in a single hit, since if you use something like Water Wave or Needle Cannon, you generate 5-10x the rage points for the hale for the same amount of damage, which can spell disaster if the Hale's rage works well with the level layout. A switch would help make the rapid fire/hitting weapons more useful, as 100 points of damage would generate the same amount of rage points no matter the weapon.

-It might be an idea to modify the lms weapon randomizer for the mode. Currently, you can either get a set perfectly tailored to murdering Hales, one that barely works at all, or something in between. You could set it up so that it would give something like a melee (the ones that get bonus damage vs hales), close range, long range, rapid fire, impact, escape, and special weapon for example. You can then balance the hales around having these specific types of weapons.

Specific Hales:

Saxton Hale: If he is kept, make sure the rage isn't full invulnerablity, use something like 70% DR and hitstun immunity. Full invuln is really frustrating to be going against, and at least with the DR and hitscan immunity, you can do some scratch damage to him while he is chasing you

Ghost of Starman: If you're looking to declone, doing something with meteors as a main definitely sounds like a good idea, whether it's nerfed Astro Crush, a simple exploding projectile or whatever.
Also, silly random idea I had; make the rage targetable rather than falling around him. If you nerfed the damage and added an indicator of where it was falling, it seems like it would increase its usefulness.
 
Cave Johnson: Remove the afterburn, or at least code a new one that doesn't slow the victim. The slow can turn a scratch into death as the afterburn does some damage and Cave can line up another shot to finish you off. Otherwise I haven't seen him in forever so I really don't have an opinion currently

Christian Brutal Sniper: If you want to declone him, why not go and make him a ranged solo Hale? Slash his health, and turn his mainfire into the bow. Use the arrows currently in the rage but make them like 3-4 hit kill. Switch his rage into getting a rifle, which could have extremely fast or hitscan projectiles, possibly have a scope, kill in 2-3 shots, and be limited by ammo rather than time like Tsuki said.

Ninja Spy: One idea I had for him is to embrace the lives gimmick he has and give him scaling lives rather than scaling health. Give him something like 150 health/life and 1+playercount lives. Upon losing a life he would gain complete invisibility for a second, then partial invis and damage reduction for a few seconds or until he makes an attack, whichever comes first.
-A silly rage revamp idea I had was to make it charge fast and give full invis for ~8 secs or until an attack is made. The full invis allows for stealth attacks, but flubbing your move would be costly
-In general, the only voice clips he has that can give him away is the rage and super jump activation since the others are simply broadcasted to the players. if you want him to be stealthy maybe remove them or don't have the SJ clip play while cloaked or something. Also, some way to make his lives trigger better would be great, like if you could force him to reach 1 HP before dieing or something and make it happen there, though I'm not sure if that is possible.

Ra Thor: Aimable black hole would be nice, the rage is just sort of there, and hypnotism is his gimmick. Maybe decrease the amount of rage points he needs to activate the rage, and make a ranged hypnotism the rage. Otherwise he still works as is AFAIK.

Gilgamesh: While I never played the version with it, weapon roulette seems like an interesting idea if you can balance it right. I think he could use a slightly longer delay before firing off rocket punches though.

Slenderman: I have no ideas for him and really do not care any which way what happens with him.

Scrooge McDuck: I'd make his rage slightly less powerful by making the whales have an HP amount and/or making them deal ripping damage rather than instant death so that you can brush them and not die instantly, but they do good damage if they run you over. Also his SJ is really not powerful at all, you can basically Saku someone with it to kill them instantly, but the blast radius on it is shorter than the range of his mainfire and takes like 3 hits to kill that way. If you go with the whales dealing damage idea, it might be an idea to extend the range of the blast but make it only do like 20 damage everywhere in the explosion, so that he can basically soften you up for his rage or chip you to death with it.

Morshu: Apparently has a major rework in progress (or at least planned) so not much to say. Currently he seems both powerful but extremely skill dependent

Seeman and Seeldier: Same situation as Slender really, they're basically hale clones with less health and different rages.

Quote and Curly: Some sort of indication that Quote has used and is using his rage would be nice, otherwise they seem fine aside from possible number tweaking.

[TailsMK4]

Today I have pretty much finished just one, but big feature, of Endless Attack. I have successfully added the bosses from Mission Mode in Endless Attack, and they behave just like they were in Mission Mode, minus the small sacrifice of them dropping down during the intro. This was to resolve a glitch with the bosses that occurred after I placed in scripts to have the battle finish if the challenger dies to the boss (so that another player can't come in and finish off a weakened boss easily). I might also mention that Toad Man...shows off his strength when he activates his rage. You will see what I mean when you come in and fight him.

The rest of the mode that I am going to do will take some time, and in 10 hours I will be back in college, so activity will be lessened just a little bit. I know you guys will enjoy the mode when it is ready, though. I am putting lots of hours into this, and I spent a few days already just making sure the bosses and player classes worked!

[Balrog]

@Saxton Hale: You need a dev team. I want on the dev team. (The main reason I haven't been working on my end is because I've been waiting to see what you've been doing. Also kinda hoped that Hale would die off for a bit without updates and people could actually play some vanilla for once.)

[Ceridran]

You really should have a trustworthy dev team. Smash (not Smashbro) and Balrog. make neat firsties.