New Gamers, how must we do with them?

[Emmanuelf06]

Anyways, King Dumb, well said! ..... You said all...

[Balrog]

Some new findings:

(click to show/hide)

mikey hauser: bad game

I've been compiling demos and whatnot, and expect to have a series of videos soon.

[King Dumb]

And what exactly are you trying to prove with these demos and logs? That a lot of new players hold little to no value currently to our community.

Those of us who play the frequently know this very well. Perhaps we should figure out where these new players are coming from; maybe we'll get lucky and they all come from the same place. They're probably from a select few origins. That'd be worth figuring out, both for PR (that's Public Relations) research purposes and just figuring it out. Posterity and all that. We don't need to spend time proving there a few bad apples out there. I myself encountered a particularly distasteful new individual two days ago at Classes TLMS.

One huge thing we can do to improve the quality of people coming in is improve the MM8BDM Wiki. Little progress has been made since the project was stickied to the MM8BDM Discussion forums. It's common practice nowadays to look to wikis for information about a new interest. If you ask me, ours makes us look shallow, lacking content and character. It's also not as useful as it could be. We can start by copying all of the content from some of our forums' more useful tutorials into the wiki. We can continue by marking our articles more comprehensive and less personalized, because that turns people off. We can improve from there by adding articles on mods, and... more tutorials! People should be able to scour the wiki and come to the forums with a good working knowledge of everything.

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As an aside. I think too many people are looking for that magic solution. Some people say we need more vanilla, some say we need PR, some say we need more activity, some say we need more mods, some say we need more this or that... Everyone has seemed reluctant to agree that we need *all* of that and more.

But it's not just that we need all of that. We need all of that in quality. But perhaps that is a discussion for a different thread.

I also disagree with those stating that the community is just in a phase and that things will turn around. I agree we are in a phase, as things have been this way before, but not without action. What do these people think will magically happen? The only thing that will happen without us doing anything is a slow aging-out and a sudden death.

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EDIT: To get this back on topic, because that truly was meant to be an aside...

I think a dedicated server is a good idea, and could work. I think Light's Lab would be a great way to make that happen... perhaps it could simply be expanded and made online-friendly?

[*Alice]

Well, from what I have seen most of the new players (from the nameless servers / dev's server) (with maybe one or two exceptions) are acting quite civilized, actually. I mean, of course there are people swearing and complaining unnecessarily, but that should be kind of expected.

I had quite a few nice matches with them in the last few days and I am sure that Balrog's videos will prove some of the things said in this thread wrong.

The really funny thing, though, is that most people are still playing Saxton Hale or not playing the game, even though we almost always have at least one vanilla server with players in them now.

tl,dr: New players are not bad nor good because many people are not interested in them after all.

[Balrog]

And what exactly are you trying to prove with these demos and logs? That a lot of new players hold little to no value currently to our community.

Those of us who play the frequently know this very well. Perhaps we should figure out where these new players are coming from; maybe we'll get lucky and they all come from the same place. They're probably from a select few origins. That'd be worth figuring out, both for PR (that's Public Relations) research purposes and just figuring it out. Posterity and all that. We don't need to spend time proving there a few bad apples out there. I myself encountered a particularly distasteful new individual two days ago at Classes TLMS.

Wait, are you agreeing with me here? It's kinda hard to tell from your wording.

I've always argued based on prior experience that the majority of the new players are going to be children who will herpderp around and annoy people. I suspect that the primary source of referrals is YouTube videos, and no amount of PR is going to steer that failboat of a user base around. (Yes, I'm aware that there are tons of high-quality videos posted on YouTube every day. It's the people who frequent the website and don't post much of anything who are terrible.) This source of new players will be ever-present; currently it seems to be our only source of new players. So PR is a good idea here; we need to start forum threads in sane communities to attract people who aren't epic morons to this community and show them how to work Doomseeker and whatnot.

One huge thing we can do to improve the quality of people coming in is improve the MM8BDM Wiki. Little progress has been made since the project was stickied to the MM8BDM Discussion forums. It's common practice nowadays to look to wikis for information about a new interest. If you ask me, ours makes us look shallow, lacking content and character. It's also not as useful as it could be. We can start by copying all of the content from some of our forums' more useful tutorials into the wiki. We can continue by marking our articles more comprehensive and less personalized, because that turns people off. We can improve from there by adding articles on mods, and... more tutorials! People should be able to scour the wiki and come to the forums with a good working knowledge of everything.

I wouldn't say to directly copy tutorials, but adapting their content is a good idea. Also, the Wiki makes us look shallow because aside from "the guys", the forum regulars who stick around and make the mods, this community is shallow. Again, "90 percent 8-year-olds, 8 percent lurkers, 1.9 percent oldbies, and 0.1 percent people actually able to contribute", though in the case of this community the oldbie and contributor groups are pretty much one and the same.

As an aside. I think too many people are looking for that magic solution. Some people say we need more vanilla, some say we need PR, some say we need more activity, some say we need more mods, some say we need more this or that... Everyone has seemed reluctant to agree that we need *all* of that and more.

But it's not just that we need all of that. We need all of that in quality. But perhaps that is a discussion for a different thread.

People are lazy and want a magic bullet to solve their problems. This transcends communities and the Internet.

I think a dedicated server is a good idea, and could work. I think Light's Lab would be a great way to make that happen... perhaps it could simply be expanded and made online-friendly?

From what I've seen, Light's Lab relies too heavily on offline-only kludges to bother editing. An all-original map would be better.

Well, from what I have seen most of the new players (from the nameless servers / dev's server) (with maybe one or two exceptions) are acting quite civilized, actually. I mean, of course there are people swearing and complaining unnecessarily, but that should be kind of expected.

I had quite a few nice matches with them in the last few days and I am sure that Balrog's videos will prove some of the things said in this thread wrong.

The really funny thing, though, is that most people are still playing Saxton Hale or not playing the game, even though we almost always have at least one vanilla server with players in them now.

tl,dr: New players are not bad nor good because many people are not interested in them after all.

Let me make this clear: I can hold my own against these people.
I am, without a doubt, the least skilled forum regular. Every time I've tried dueling someone with any skill whatsoever, I almost always lose with a 5-2 score or worse. And I can fight and win against these guys, which hasn't happened to me since the homie invasion. That should tell you how incompetent they are. As for them "acting quite civilized", that may be because they either don't know that T is for talk or are too busy playing to talk much.

I therefore have come to the conclusion that oldbies are avoiding vanilla at least partly because the inhabitants thereof are simply not a challenge to them. Various other reasons have been suggested here and may be a factor, of course.

[King Dumb]

I'm confused as to what your point is to be, Balrog. Are you saying Cutstuff is doomed to the same fate as SRB2, or are you saying we've already suffered said fate and now it's time to bounce back? You seem to be agreeing with a number of proposed solutions, but then you keep harping on some point (which, again, has alluded me) about the current player demographic. I'm not seeing a whole lot of potential for a productive point coming out of that.

I'm refraining from responding to your post section by section because that seems to turn off people from reading for comprehension. I will, however, respond directly to one section.

People are lazy and want a magic bullet to solve their problems. This transcends communities and the Internet.

Yes. I know. Generalizing the problem does not make it any more excusable or any less reparable.

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Unfortunately, some people - specifically those who have lost the most interest and who ascribe to the strictest doctrines of a magical community cycle - will have already dismissed this topic as just another hopeless cause devolved into argument.

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I feel we've almost exhausted discussion of the original topic - how to deal with new players. Provide them readily available resources for learning (the Wiki, forums, new player server), a place to log some online gameplay without feeling the pressure of those of more experience (new player server), and provide them with an active, valuable community into which they can integrate themselves after learning the ropes.

[Balrog]

I'm saying that CutStuff is traveling down the same path that SRB2 travels down, nearly all new players discovering this game are epic morons who fail Internet 101, and we need to take active steps to correct this by evangelizing to communities that don't suck ass.

I think that this topic is due for a lock. Everything that can be said seems to have been said, and further discussion is likely to result in flaming and circular arguments. (If anyone's interested in those videos I mentioned, check [linked removed] as they appear.) Would a mod be so kind as to oblige?

[*Alice]

Honestly, this is just a lot of dramaticism about nothing.

And I have not noticed this topic really going into flamewar territory.

The thing is that there is a widespread bias against new players in general here, which is just really annoying.

We actually do *not need* new players. And it looks like many people do not even *want* new players.
I, personally, do not really care much about new players. While I do enjoy just helping them a little and explaining them things (and of course beating them in-game because of the skill level difference) they are not crucial to the enjoyment of the game.

If someone does not write while playing, does that make them stupid? No. I, for example, never wrote anything in Xonotic or Team Fortress 2 when I used to play those games, yet I still enjoyed them and was not completely useless as a player.

Basically, all this over-dramatizing is just really pointless. Cutstuff is not *dying*. We do not have a mass exodus of users here, do we? It might be that many people are getting bored with the game for various reasons, but that is something completely normal. Just wait for the next big mod / event to appear / re-appear and we will have full servers all the time.

I see no reason to lock this.

[King Dumb]

This will probably be my last post in this topic.

I agree with Alice in that I don't see any flaming or potential for unfocused argument, so far. I also agree that there is a widespread (not sure how widespread, but widespread) distaste for the idea of new players.

I disagree with the notion that there is over-dramatization going on here. There is no dramatization going on at all. Dramatization would involve much more emotion and much less reason. I try not to associate with 'drama'; there is a line between drama and important issues. This is the latter.

And finally, I will end with a definitive "no"; Cutstuff is not dying. An actual process of dying would be more quick.

But it is aging, and the condemnation of the aged is complacence.

[Galactan]

Honestly, this is just a lot of dramaticism about nothing.

This is a hell of a lot more than nothing.  Like Balrog said, if active steps aren't taken, servers will likely be flooded with ragers, spammers, and other such things.  Maybe not soon, but it's in the future somewhere.

[Ivory]

This is a hell of a lot more than nothing.  Like Balrog said, if active steps aren't taken, servers will likely be flooded with ragers, spammers, and other such things.  Maybe not soon, but it's in the future somewhere.

I'm pretty sure if that were to happen, it would have happened by now. The state of the game and this community has been stagnant for a long time afterall. Official expansions and updates don't draw in crowds for very long. For as big of an overhaul update that V3 was, how long did the magic and excitement last? A few weeks tops.

As for the fear of the community dying, fear not, it can never die. There are too many vital people here who keep things going and so long as those people remain here and gradually work on MM8BDM related content, the community and game will stay afloat. However, this is hardly an ideal state to be in.

[Orange juice :l]

We actually do *not need* new players. And it looks like many people do not even *want* new players.

Now, this is the problem. It's a problem whether or not you're even right. Assuming you are, these "many people" are signing Cutstuff's DNR as we speak. They turn away new players through complacency or even hostility, instead choosing the xenophobic route of only interacting with themselves. I'd go into more detail, but that's a discussion for another thread. Anyways; if you aren't right, then your conviction sends a bad message to people who want to play the game, driving them away anyways. It's their right to play this game as much as yours- it's not our place to decide we "don't need more people."

[Balrog]

Like Balrog said, if active steps aren't taken, servers will likely be flooded with ragers, spammers, and other such things.  Maybe not soon, but it's in the future somewhere.

What? I didn't say that. The horrible worst-case scenario I've been implying is one where the community that we have is the only one we get, and will slowly wither and die due to a lack of new members. The "ragers, spammers, and other such things", as you call the steady trickle of younger users, are a known quantity, barring extraordinary events such as the "homie invasion". They find the game, dick around with it, maybe make some grandiose posts on the forum that never get followed up, and lose interest within about a year. There's no real threat of a sudden and spontaneous surge of idiocy. The threat is a slow decline in activity until the current idiocy is all the activity that's left.

We actually do *not need* new players. And it looks like many people do not even *want* new players.

Now, this is the problem. It's a problem whether or not you're even right. Assuming you are, these "many people" are signing Cutstuff's DNR as we speak. They turn away new players through complacency or even hostility, instead choosing the xenophobic route of only interacting with themselves. I'd go into more detail, but that's a discussion for another thread. Anyways; if you aren't right, then your conviction sends a bad message to people who want to play the game, driving them away anyways. It's their right to play this game as much as yours- it's not our place to decide we "don't need more people."

Yup. However, the players being "driven away" currently aren't really permanent residents anyway. Again, we need new players, they just need to be players who can string coherent thoughts together and contribute to a meaningful community. From my experience, the current crop doesn't cut it.

I'm pretty sure if that were to happen, it would have happened by now. The state of the game and this community has been stagnant for a long time afterall. Official expansions and updates don't draw in crowds for very long. For as big of an overhaul update that V3 was, how long did the magic and excitement last? A few weeks tops.

As for the fear of the community dying, fear not, it can never die. There are too many vital people here who keep things going and so long as those people remain here and gradually work on MM8BDM related content, the community and game will stay afloat. However, this is hardly an ideal state to be in.

This is what is killing SRB2. It was (and is) propped up by a handful of people who keep the community going through content and discussion. When they lose interest, and as much as I hate to say it, that is going to happen eventually, the rot sets in immediately. While this commmunity may not die, it could end up looking like these guys.

[Rozark]

We have this conversation every few months, I actually believe somewhere in the forums there's a topic titled "Cutstuff is dying" from 2011. Seriously, this isn't an issue. We're doing fine and Balrog stop spreading widespread panic and go do stuff for Saxton Hale.

EDIT: Wrong topic title, but at least I got the year right.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=3698

[Mendez]

Holy crap, thanks for reminding me about that! I'll just repost what I said two years ago:
It's not ENTIRELY dead yet. There's still about 75-100 players total that still care about this game. But yeah, it seems like there are a lot less players than usual. You know what we need? A gimmicky marketing campaign to get the word out about this relatively unique FPS. I think we should make someone popular post more about this game. Hmmmmmm....
I remember Vardoc bringing me in, and I remember the roboenza videos that brought more people in. So how about we make someone incredibly popular on the internet mention this game? But who.....
Better yet, how about we all chip in and see if we can try and spread the word out about the game by making videos and crazy moments in this game, similar to what's been done before. We can get that going, and in the meantime we can try and create a custom server broswer for MM8BDM servers inside the MM8BDM launcher itself so that people aren't required to get doomseeker. Or maybe, we can go to Megaman forums and advertise this game a bit so that people get interested. Worse case scenario is that one of us starts a thread on /v/ and it results in a giant shitstorm.
Don't worry TERRORSphere, I won't let this game die on me. At least, not until AMP2 comes out. After that, to hell with you guys, I'm out of here.