[Ghouls vs Humans] - MAP META DISCUSSION

[Mobius]

That is a lot better than writing a semi decent paragraph in length contemplating you would.

So we can all agree on Two Side Tech Base being tossed from competition, and same goes for GVH11 right?

[CarThief]

Hmm... Two sided techbase probaly is a bit ghoul sided anyway, and on the other hand with the most extreme camping spot. I guess its no fun either way, well if you're losing. GVH11 probaly suffers from the same thing, except the camping is possisily less stronger there. Probaly not recommended unless you like camping matches or a quick Ghoul team win.

[CarThief]

Ah, might as well do it now out of boredom. This part of the forums is awfully quiet anyway.

(click to show/hide)

GVH01: Hmm... Very open, hard to hide, easy to run, but easy to get stuck. Mostly in the human's favour and its just one long chase if you're a ghoul. Not even the public likes it if they can vote another map, what they often do. :P So i dont think it'll be favourable for private.

GVH02: Ah, this one's quite nice, but becomes utter ghoul rape when done in large games. One can hide behind the corners to suprise attack incoming enemies, or watch where enemies go as they tend to circle around the middle part, making them often easy snacks for the smart, intercepting ghoul (like me). :P Very nice for small private games, though possibily a tad ghoul sided, if you're being surrounded.

GVH03: Meh, lots of camping makes it an not so fun map for the ghouls. One can hide in the cave, the hallway with the pillars and lava, or even on the far-away platform surrounded by lava, well, aside from some ghouls. Its rediculously easy to run into enemy fire, but the humans do not have much space to dodge, or run if an ally is taking the other path. Meh, maybe good for small matches, but not the best choice.

GVH04: Ah, i like this map. The humans may want to camp and run from either the south middle platform, or the north platforms on left and right side, or rather, the cliffs. Though the running path is not too wide and threacherous for the ghouls, especially Jitterskull, can attack almost instantly on the humans below. Good for hit and run and some interesting chases, should be fun in private matches.

GVH05: Hmm... Some potential camping spots inside, well, if they can hold ghouls out with heavy fire, and a frequently visited preferred camping spot for ghoul and human alike. Creepers have some holes to crawl around in here and Jitterskull and Sjas can use almost any route to get around. The area most fought in (or over) is probaly the outside. Should be enjoyable in private matches though.

GVH06: Hmm... One will have to rely other senses then just the eyes to get frags, or to not get fragged. The humans however like to camp in the south corners, and lightning arrows, plasma, or other strong short ranged weapons will be effecient in here. In old times the humans camped in the middle often enough as well, fiercely defending the entrance with plasma and the likes. Though with the addition of Choke and frostbite this should be easier to combat. Wish there was a ghoul that threw a grenade that would easily clean rooms if they didnt run out. Atleast its... fair enough for private matches. Though there are better maps.

GVH07: Hmm... Very open, effecient use of lightning, hitscan, and spamming lots of projectiles will effectively drain the ghoul's health if they are to choose to approach them in the open. Currently the humans like to camp in the west corner area of the map due to it having almost methods of approaching without being shot. The insides rely alot more on raw power and perhaps some traps. The humans could hide inside, but the windows, door, side entrance make it a hard place to defend. The outside is mostly human domain but the ghouls will still easily pick off a human shooting another ghoul.
Expectations are that this will be alot more camping-ish in private matches, and it may put off the ghouls from playing it. So maybe not an exellent choice.

GVH08: Ah... First the horrible details of the horrible map. The map is really large, the forest make an ideal way for the humans to get rid of any ghouls following, the cave, various inside area's make for some dreadfull camping spots at times, and the outsides are pure human. Not recommended at all. :P

GVH09: Superb design, exellent music, but fail on the gameplay part. Even unorganized human groups that wonder around and that dont stick together will not have much trouble winning this map. It is absolutely massive, with little cover, slow ghouls (aside creeper) will simply be shot as they try to scratch the humans, and they end up relying on Choke and Sjas to hopefully take things down. As with the previous version of this map, the north area with the castle main gate is a preferred camping spot for the humans. Want the ghouls to survive, they will have to try and either snipe them with bloodballs or lure them inside. Creeper can still take easy cover in this map, but expect a well thrown grenade or well aimed fire arrow to take them out. Not recommended for private play, thats for sure.

GVH10: Hmm... There is almost no cover on the main battlefield, allowing for ghouls to get shot easily, but there is plenty of debris that will delay or stop the humans, there is no effecient camping spot anymore either, and when there's a Jitterskull on the map no height will safe them, or if there's a Sjas. In TDM humans almost certainly lose. In TLMS, the ghouls might die before the humans get completely slaughtered, but ghoul sided none the less. Probaly not too well recommended.

GVH11: Ah, possibily the most ghoul-sided map in the entire mappack of GVH, well, maybe two-sided techbase still beats this one. Anyway, the map is small, rooms, hallways, area's in general do not have much space in them, and many spots have several entrances or are plain really small. Humans can try and win through camping in here, but it will prove difficult, the ghouls can get around and assault in many directions, making even the toilet area, and the lobby a dangerous place. Even the vents have 2 entrances. Well, its either camp or die, with camping being a not so guaranteed result. Probaly too ghoul sided for the humans to get any enjoyment out of it in private games. Unless they like the challenge.

GVH12: This map too caters to the ghouls. I recall there was more debris in the previous version, but even now, the ghouls easily go roam around and will murder the humans that get themselves stuck in a corner. The thin alleyways may serve as a ghoul repellant, due to inability to dodge any fire in there. And the elevator in the north-west building in the map will be a most vile and dangerous camping spot. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to throw bloodballs or ice breath from the outside towards the inside, the only accesible hole is well guarded, and even the Jitter that does suprise attacks from the street connected to the elevator hallway will most likely recieve enemy fire or may not reach far enough. Humans can even hide in the corners near the elevator. Aside that it is either a ghoul map or a camping map. Not so great for private perhaps.

GVH13: Ah, i kinda like this map. It is mostly open area, but there is plenty of cover, and one can easily get into the east popular human camping zone by travelling through the tunnels with doors, though there is a choke point humans may want to direct fire on, and without any creepers the green room that once had a camera screen will be an easy to defend camping spot. Aside that its pretty fun in TDM, fairly balanced in TLMS, though humans making accurate use of riot-- hitscan will definetly be a threat. Might be nice for private games.

GVH14: This map seems fairly fun too, or atleast in TDM. The north-east large space is the most popular spot for humans to be, they will always go there, and defend it, for it is a decent camping spot. But it is easy to scare off the humans into the alleyway and try to finish them there due to it being mostly a dead end, and else they never where quick thinkers. The rest of the map the ghouls should have no problem killing in if they spread out and intercept the humans coming their way. There is a odd camping spot with a line of exploding barrels as well, though a Jitterskull can get in there in a blink of an eye. Some holes in the containers for those who like to hide as well, and the barrels may prove handy at some point. As for the buildings, they may be a usefull escape or resting point(AKA cyborg/creeper recharging). Should be interesting in private games, but i got the feeling it'll lean towards the humans in TLMS, with the popular camping spot.

GVH15: Hmm... The area infront of the forest in a popular human hangout, or camping spot, though its easy to drive them off, but they'll take cover in the forest, and some ghouls cannot function well in there. The inside has various rooms and THIN hallways that could make any ghoul back off from a chase. There is even a dead end with a ledge only Jitterskull and Sjas can enter with on the inside that may prove to be a lethal camping spot. As for the hills area, it is often travelled by ghoul and human alike, and allows for exellent cover, view of the situation on the human hangout, or for Jitterskull to swoop down to eat some humans. And there's also the water area that is best avoided, as the only way up is if you can fly or be a Jitterskull, or take the elevator, where the enemy easily awaits those going up. Bad place to hide from a Jitterskull as well.
This map has some easily abused flaws, and a popular camping spot, not the best choice for a serious game, probaly.

GVH16: This map is probaly the ultimate ghoul map. It has very thin doors, thus the panicking humans often get stuck, ghouls like Jitterskull and Sjas will utterly destroy anything in their path, there are many corners, and almost nothing like thin hallways without cover, its all ghoul sided... Except for one extremely large error. The red teleporter room is probaly the ULTIMATE camping spot, having only one door, the teleporter leading to the door, and traps easily laid on the teleporter, the door can be guarded with heavy fire, like cyborgs, and the traps make an exellent backup for when intruders get through. As for any other class, they can either guard the teleporter or shoot the shit out of anything in vision, since they are so close to the door, it is difficult for choke or frostbite to even throw some breath or bloodballs in there without getting hurt or killed. They can even throw grenades outside! In short, really ghoul sided, really bad camping spot, not good for private matches if you want ghoul rape or camping to happen.

GVH17: Ah, this is probaly quite human sided with its large open spaces and lots of hallways and rooms to run through. The north-west area with lots of streaming water is the most popular human camping spot. And ghoul or human alike can use the tower with windows to snipe some people, inside ghouls could be fended off with traps and plasma, possibily, or atleast in TDM. Well, i guess this is too human sided to be fun in private matches.

GVH18: Ah, an ghoul map no matter how you look at it. It is small, has little place to run from the ghouls spreading around, has absolutely no effecient camping spot, and they can be overwhelmed in every area. Hmm... Aside maybe if they camp in the north-east high up hallway, with some fierce plasma spam and traps. Dodging a ghoul is probaly way too hard in here, or they'll never last long. Definetly too one-sided for private or serious games.

GVH19: Hmm... I'd call it a human map at glance. The long hallways definetly allow for some lightning arrow destruction, and make it really hard to chase humans through there. The area south of the forest, at the main entrance serves as the main camping grounds, though humans sometimes spread out into the depths and hallways of the ruins. It'll be hard to catch any humans as the map is large enough to spread the ghouls out, making them fodder for the humans if they're trying things they wont win. Meh, simply too large and human sided if you ask me.

GVH20: Probaly the best balanced map. Aside the long hallway near the popular camping spot, north-west or so, things are not too hard to hide from. Taking cover is easy, and these hallways allow for some chases that are quite doable often, and else improvise by taking another path. Knowlege of the map in order to intercept the foe and suprise it is quite crucial. Of course helping an buddy chasing a human while going into the area the human is headed is exellent teamwork as well. Due to its balance it'll probaly do nicely for private matches.

GVH21: Ah, the layout is just terrible regarding balance. The map has some choke points, teleporters that the humans can trap and use at whim, and apparently people like to complain about the mirrors, as well. The layout and size of the rooms on each end pretty much leans towards the humans. And if it where the old times, they would STILL be camping at the end, near the teleporter, with traps and plasma guarding the door. Not recommended for private matches if you ask me. :P

GVH22: Hmm... The outside is mostly ghoul terrain, though in TLMS the humans may fend the ghouls off at the open graveyard zones, with enough firepower. As for the inside, oh boy, even though the recent update made it more bearable to fight the humans inside, getting there is another story! One will have to either sneak in through the teleporter, or simply charge in like i do, and then proceed and quickly take area before the humans switch their main attention to the teleporter. Its basically a battle of campers vs the assaulting team. Only recommended if you like tactical battles of the assaulting team versus the campers. Maybe someone should make a wad like that.

GVH23: Ah... The ghouls will dominate outside by taking cover or simply traversing the boxes effortlessly, while the humans will have an easy time defending the north curved hallway with the lights that can be turned off. Speaking of, turning the lights off may make some humans blind, though expect them to use OpenGL instead, or use sv_forcegldefaults. As for the room with the very light switch, it is the most popular camping spot in the map. Creeper hands and bloodballs are said to be able to pass through the glass, the almost fenced off entrance with the boxes is easily defended due to the fence only blocking movement, and anyone going through the doors will get shot by people in the middle. There is also a lower area inside, but it doesnt help the humans much. Too much camping or ghoul rape for it to be a balanced game, so probaly not recommended in private.

GVH24: Due to the nature of this map, having long, many hallways, this basically can be called a race course. The building with the 4 doors and several other entrances is a popular human spot. The humans generally either stick there or roam around the hallways but rarely too far from their precious building. The building itself... Meh, from the inside it is very open and large, high too. Once a ghoul enters they can get shot from any direction and will most likely die if alone. As for the rest of the map, its basically hit and run for the humans. One will need to strategically intercept the humans or simply be faster. Also, the ice in some parts is a blessing for Jitterskull, his charge attack can go miles on ice, and his regular movement is unaffected by ice. Well, i'd say this is probaly not enjoyable for private matches.

GVH25: The map is very dark for software users or with the flag sv_forcegldefaults. The area with the fence is the choke point that will almost always see battle. The map is extremely open and there's little hiding spots or cover. And there's even a second choking spot leading outside, though the outside is far more ghoul friendly with all the cover. Hmm... And Chokes like to fire bloodballs over the fence area, though they are inaccurate, atleast they may draw out the humans. In short its rather futile to play this privately, though, especially on TLMS.

GVH26: Hmm... Since i do not recall the last time i've seen this being played in TLMS... It'll be trickier to judge what will happen. Though it has a seemingly effecient camping spot on the north side of the map, and the glass isnt very convenient for the ghouls, none the less the area is small and humans bumping into ghouls wont last long. Cant say if it'll do fine in TLMS or privately though.

GVH27: Ah, this kinda depends on the gamemode. In TDM the ghouls will have no trouble winning, in TLMS the humans can try and form a powerfull camping spot at the end of the ship. Especially marines and other hitscan (ab)users will prove effecient in stopping the ghouls during a TLMS match. Though atleast there's reasonable cover, so an attack should have chances of succeeding. Once again, recommended if you like camping battles. Otherwise... Nah.

GVH28: Hmm... Never played this much. The insides probaly allow nicely for an escape, if you're fast enough. The outside ring is more popular as a camping spot then the inside base. The outside ring seems to focus on chasing with minimal but some cover, though making it reasonable of the humans get sandwitched by ghouls from both sides. Pretty sure humans will have more chance at this in TLMS though. Not sure if this is good for private matches, its rather large.

GVH29: Ah, a human map no doubt. The open area with the laser beam construct is the general camping zone, and else they like to camp at the doorway west of it. Though unlike most maps, this map provides some interesting cover in the form of height variation and the occasional boxes. The cave area is pretty fair to both sides, though the humans will mostly be restricted to the paths leading up if they fall down, and if they fall down near a Jitterskull or Sjas, its gonna hurt. Aside that marines, hunters, maybe other classes with spammable shots will definetly do well outside. Taking cover or avoiding attacks is quite doable and a creeper will easily find a hiding spot as well. In short its somewhat human sided, but the ghouls got stuff to work with, not so exellent against private matches against marines, though.

GVH30: The main area is heavily littered with things and various furniture. Some people take to camping in the dead ends near the white teleporter pads, while it may fend off some ghouls, by far it wont cut it compared to other map's camping spots. With the update to the map, it now has more area's to it, and the outside area (though rarely used) probaly will do nicely for the humans well capable of dodging, running, and using hitscan. The intersection with teleporters, shortcuts, and stuff has no cover, but atleast one can avoid projectiles there. Once again for the main area with countless candles/torches, the ghouls will most likely dominate that area due to effortlessly going over obstacles and else they're the chasers, not the runners, they dont die from getting delayed. :P
Well... Its probaly not suited for private matches.

GVH31: Hmm... Hard to say. The inside area has plenty of running space, so its easy to just go wild and frag or be fragged. The outside was designed to be uncampable, and thus they dont. I've yet to see the humans have a well-working camping spot in my map so far, and generally its hit and run, with a twist of hiding/shooting from/suprise attacking from the vents. Regarding TLMS balance... I dont know, too little data. But it should make for interesting small private matches with the vents and all the moving space.

The latest version will come with doors that stay open, but can be set to close and act normally. And Cutman intends to remove the steam, it isnt working by now anyway.

GVH32: Hmm... I have too little data on it to be sure. But considering its small size, the echo making things easier to hear, etc. Hitscan (ab)users will probaly function very well in this map. Well, in TLMS atleast. Seems very open and easy in general to run and shoot. There are some other spots to it, but any sane human with victory in mind will probaly camp.

GVH00: Ah, great looks, not so great gameplay. Its all human. The hallways, the open large center area that used to be even more open, more hallways, its a simple design, but it allows for way more then needed hit and run space. The hallways allow for an very effecient way of repelling ghouls with heavy fire, a ghoul will need a teammate to hunt people in the hallways and such. The center area requires lots of dodging though luckily it has some cover. Still awfully human sided though, not so recommended for private games.

Well, i tried. this is pretty much my opinion along with some strategies and flaws of the map, wether i would find it fun in private matches. After looking it seems alot of maps are not very well thought of to work in private matches (though maybe i'm just very picky). If the players are gonna use everything they have.

And my thumb hurts from typing this... Ah well, maybe it'll be of some use.

[Mobius]

See, Carthief. Was that hard to write? I agree with GVH01 about it being a chase 9 times out of 10. I love the map and still think it is balanced, but it is a ghoul chase when you come down to the last 2 ghouls. Ghouls will have to run around the entire map and hope humans split up from the camping grounds by the slim pool in order to win.

So far from the people posting, the consensus is as followed.

Good

GVH01(Debatable)
GVH02
GVH06
GVH13
GVH17(Debatable)
GVH20

Bad

GVH10(Debatable)
GVH11
GVH12
GVH08
GVH14
GVH16
GVH18
GVH19
GVH21
GVH00

The rest aren't decided. Feel free to disagree and I'll accommodate the changes.

Debatable means 1 person disagreed or agreed but had qualms about it.

[CarThief]

Ah, guess i'll post my thoughts about the list.

(click to show/hide)

GVH01: Hmm... Not sure, hard to say anything about its balance, but as a ghoul the gameplay is rather hindered by humping into a tree at that critical moment, getting stuck on weird obstacles, and one can get stuck in the mud, or atleast, get delayed. Its also very dark for software users, so i'm not sure if it will be enjoyable.

GVH02: Ah, nice map for small matches, humans can try and camp in a corner, but it wont be easy. The gameplay should be enjoyable.

GVH06: Hmm... Meh, as long as there's no camping and its more about skill and training your other senses, this map should be fine.

GVH13: This map should be fun, but the gameplay may be spoiled by an exessive use of hitscan, considering the map is very open. The green room is an ideal camping spot when the ghouls run out of Creepers. It has its flaws, but i'm not sure if it is so perfect to be on the list, as abusing either flaw or bringing alot of marines will make it boring.

GVH17: I guess once again, marines will have the upper hand, but it should be easy enough to get around and flank them, or have a teammate distract them, and whatnot. Seems enjoyable enough, especially when the update will occur.

GVH20: Uh... Yeah, definetly keep it.

Summary:
GVH01: Err, debatable for its flaws abovementioned.
GVH02: Ah, fine choice to keep.
GVH06: I guess its worth keeping.
GVH13: Has some flaws, good map though. Probaly keep it.
GVH17: Hmm... slightly better then GVH13, should be good after the update.

Hmm... As for the bad maps list...

GVH10, 11, 12, 08, i guess they can stay on the list. They're all a bit too balanced to either side.

GVH14: Hmm... For some reason i like this map. The camping is not too strong, there are many ways to get around, and the humans dont always start at their camping spot, making it easy to intercept them as they go for it. If they choose to spread around, a lone ambushing ghoul can prove deadly too. Well, i'd suggest this for the good maps list, aside the unavoidable camping, it is a thing to overcome and enjoy. As it is quite acceptable.
I guess all the others listed after 14 can stay on it as well.

Hmm... And now the non-listed maps i guess.

(click to show/hide)

GVH03: Probaly too small, ghoul-rape-filled, or otherwise filled with campers to be enjoyable for both sides.

GVH04: Hmm... Personally this one seems enjoyable. I can understand if it is too much of a ghoul map, but it has a few spots humans frequent at too, and it often consists of some interesting chases and intercepting. I'd say take a look at it and consider it for the list if it isnt too ghoul sided.

GVH05: Ah, this one is a tad the opposite, it is slightly human sided due to the large nature of the outside area, hmm... If all the humans camped outside in TLMS, and where good at attacks from distance, they'd probaly win. I guess due to the abusable nature of the rather unfair camping option there its best not added.

GVH07: Meh, even more human sided then GVH05, probaly. It just wont do.

GVH09: Yeah... I think you should just add this to the bad list. It is hard enough in TDM, imagine TLMS.

GVH15: Hmm... I'm seeing plenty things both ghoul and human sided in this map. If my expectations are indeed true, this should be a decent addition to the good maps list. Well, it will undoubtedly involve camping, but not the impossible kind.

GVH22: Too much camping too be of significant fun to the ghouls, if you're looking for a more ideal map.

GVH23: Like GVH22, involves alot of camping. I guess it just wont do.

GVH24: Meh, i'm looking for more excuses then that its just a giant race track involving hit and run, sandwitching, and intercepting. It doesnt seem very enjoyable in small private games.

GVH25: Ah... This one is almost as bad as GVH09. Dark too. Should simply be thrown into the bad list, probaly.

GVH26: Aside it having a good side... I dont know anything positive or negative about this map or if it will be enjoyable. Though my worst expectations are that the humans will use some spot in the map and camp in there, like the cave area, low ceiling, grenades, heavy firepower, it'll all suit nicely in repelling most ghouls. Probaly not good idea to add to the good list if such a thing will occur.

GVH27: In TLMS this map would be way to much of a camping battle. Especially versus marines and other hitscan classes. Probaly add it to the bad list.

GVH28: Ah... Too large for interesting TLMS games. It becomes more of an hide and seek. Its probaly not a good idea to use.

GVH29: In TLMS, humans will win. Well, most of the time. I guess its just too human sided for many reasons. Probaly add it to the bad list. :P

GVH30: Hmm... Messy on the inside, a tad underdetailed on some other area's. Ghouls will do well on the main inside area... Meh, i guess it'll end up being ghoul sided. Probaly not well fit for private matches anyway.

GVH31: Ah... Being the author... I'm probaly gonna just try and get this map added. So... Someone else decide if this should go in. :P

GVH32: I can imagine humans easily winning in this map due to its nature of being large, open, plenty of running space and firepower, though with some area's allowing suprise attacks or other ghoul stuff. Probaly best not used.

GVH03, 04, 05, 07, 09, 15, 22, 23, 24... 32.
Summary:
GVH03: Bad list - Really cramped, lots of camping, almost no room to dodge, flank, or suprise attack.
GVH04: Good list? - A tad ghoul sided, but nothing the humans cannot beat.
GVH05: Bad list - Camping and slightly human sided.
GVH07: Bad list - Camping, human sided.
GVH09: Bad list - Awfully human sided. Camping, too.
GVH15: Good list? - Almost no issues. Camping is beatable.
GVH22: Bad list - Much camping.
GVH23: Bad list - Camping issues. Could be worse though.
GVH24: Bad list - Somewhat human sided, doesnt seem very fun.
GVH25: Bad list - Dark, camping issues, utterly human sided.
GVH26: Bad list - Highly likely camping issues.
GVH27: Bad list - Camping issues.
GVH28: Bad list - Seems more like hide and seek then GVH, i wouldnt recommend it.
GVH29: Bad list - Too human sided.
GVH30: Bad list - Rather ghoul sided.
GVH31: You decide. :P
GVH32: Bad list - Camping issues.

Hmm... Kinda hard to find many good maps after taking a look.
Edit: And damn, is the good maps list TINY compared to the gigantic amount of not so good maps. :P

Oh, and this part of the forum, currently, is dieing, if not 75% or more dead by now. Please revive it with an update, Cutman.

[Frits]

i like 17 it's big but great to play as a creeper.
Why not add the small foggy map? with the flowers and stuff. It's a great map to play with low
player count.

and what about the map with the helicopter pad and the moving water? I don't know the number but it's a balanced map.

[CarThief]

Ah, you mean the custom map Ivory made? I'm not sure if this discussion is about GVH maps not in the pack.

As for the one with the helicopter pad and moving water, is it not GVH17? I guess aside the hitscan abuse from time to time isnt a bad map.

[Frits]

no the map with 2 teleporters, it's a very little map lot's of fog. Some flowers and and trees.
I tought 17 was the one with the bowl and the sniping tower.

[CarThief]

Ah, Two-sided Techbase...? That map is horribily flawed in both ways. I do recall it having fog, some flowers, etc.

Anyway, speaking of the map, if you've ever come face to face with a ghoul there and fled, you will find you often get stuck, or atleast thats the result i'm getting when people see me. The humans have absolutely no space to dodge, ghouls can easily get near them through the corridors or cover of some other kind, and even more easily killed due to the lack of breathing room.

Likewise, the map is the ULTIMATE camping map. The red teleporter room is the most indestructible camping spot ever, various other rooms are easily guarded, littered with traps, and cyborgs can rain plasma upon those even looking at the door.
Well, balance wise... It depends what the players do, but undoubtedly, one side wont have fun, thats for sure.

The "bowl and sniping tower" map is GVH29, Project: Strikebeam. It is mostly human sided, though unlike other human maps, it has somewhat more cover and height variation. This makes things hard, but not impossible. I'd still say the humans win easily in TLMS though.
Edit: GVH29 doesnt have non-frozen water, either. :P The only map with a helicopter pad and moving water is GVH17 i recall.

Well, those maps would not be such a great idea if the idea is to keep the gameplay fun by using only maps with good gameplay and minimal flaws.

[Frits]

2 sided tech base is fun in smaller games (6 players). The doors aren't that much of a problem but those shitty stairs are. And red room campers always get owned by frostbite lol.

GVH32 is nice too. 31 needs to dump the shitty doors.

[CarThief]

Ah, no need to worry about the doors in GVH31 in the next version. Well if Cutman will update it with the correct version. The doors can be toggled in the newest one, but start and default on staying open.

[Frits]

And what about map09 it's a great map even though it's (less)big and open this map always gave me great games no matter what side i'm on. On the inside there is enough cover for the ghouls while the tunnels give the humans some rest. Ghouls can attack from every side, there's no stupidly placed rock to run into as a human. No great camping places since outside got nerfed and it's got a great flow.
what more can you want?
slighty human biased though but no more than 13 is ghoul biased.
+ cutman thinks it's oke ;D

[CarThief]

I think you've played humans and Sjas a little too much... Anyway, GVH09 is very difficult in TDM, well, if there's actually good (or abusing) players around. Naturally, in TLMS, it will be even worse. The map is so large, the chance of running into a ghoul is by far not that large, and else, many places are so wide, or have different paths to use, they can endlessly avoid the ghouls!

Hmm... GVH13(Blud factory) is quite more balanced due to it being smaller, if you compare it to GVH09. Atleast the humans can be intercepted, sandwitched, or whatever it takes to kill em. GVH09 is just too large for ANY TLMS game, hardly any fun for TDM either.