SBWT Mapping Competition: Burst Man

[Gumballtoid]

My vote goes to Fyone, and is easily the best map I've seen from him. I like the core map personally, and I'm glad to see that the glaring issues I had with it were fixed and improved upon with this map.

[Shyster]

Odd how most people who are posting like Fyone's, and yet he's coming in behind. I blame everyone just substituting Ivory's opinion for their own.

#1: Good layout and weapon choice I suppose, but it just feels too complicated, especially the second yellow water area. That, and I think the spikes look ugly, even if they are a gimmick from the original stage.

#2: Plenty of "fighting space" here, yup. I can really picture matches on this map going well. I actually like the concept of burst man's original water gimmick, but agree it needed to be implemented better, so another plus there. It's a shame it couldn't use rising water, but I think it would just be too impractical in the end. And yes, ditch the time stopper. The last minute change Fyone made is good too. Has the best "vanilla feel."

#3: This one just makes the water annoying. Making it the central focus of the stage will just make it hated worse than the original Burst Man. Good job making the Super Adaptor great here, but in the end it will become the only useful weapon. That, and it's kinda ugly. Especially the outer wall.

Winner: #2, Fyone

[Accel]

Mendez - I actually like this stage quite a bit. The way the water level is constantly changing definitely adds a new element.
Fyone - Oh wow! This one is actually fairly awesome! It's much like the original stage, except actually fun! I really don't have much to add, other than the fact that I just really like how everything is done with this stage.
Smash - No. I just didn't like it. It's not very pleasing to the eyes, and the water gimmick is just flat out annoying.

Verdict: I hate to burst your bubble, Smash... but Fyone blew this out of the water.

[Magnet Dood]

I would vote for Smash's if his water didn't make me SINK



He says he floats just fine but I don't so borked

Anyway, as much as I did like Smash's map for Burst I kind of prefer Fyone's here. It, like everyone else has said, fixed all of the problems with the current build (or most of them) and made it new and original while containing the aspects of the vanilla map. Smash's, on the other hand, relies more on the water, which I feel is one of the map's strong points. In the original, the water felt shoehorned in and also didn't exactly work like it should (since it didn't raise or lower). Smash's map fixes that problem and also gives you more incentive to jump in.

At least, if the water actually worked for me anyway.

Unless Smash can get his water straight, Fyone gets my vote.
EDIT: Water's fixed, Smash wins

[TailsMK4]

I guess I will add my input as well. Keep in mind that I tend to like platforming aspects more than other people. The way I will rate these maps is I will be placing these and the old map in order of what maps I liked best, from best to worst.

Maybe it's because my tastes probably vary a lot from other people, but I didn't consider any of these entries memorable at all.

#1: The orange water segments seemed kind of pointless imo. I personally hate the Arrow Buster and would only go down there for Power Stone. As for the purple water...the stage could do without it except at the Eddie segment. That one was an interesting use of it. There really isn't anything worth going into the purple water for except for W Tanks, but in tight DM matches, you will likely be killed before you end up using one of your W Tanks anyway. As for the rest of the stage, I found it confusing to navigate. For one thing, the Count Bombs caught my eye, but I could not remember where they were in the stage, and when I did find them, it was because I found them from the very ledge they were leading up to. I will cut a little slack since the original Burst Man map didn't use the Count Bombs, but I was very disappointed with their use here.

#2: Just like with Mendez's map, I found this map kind of confusing, but I see some of the original elements from the old stage are here. I personally do not care for the center of the stage, and I didn't care for it either in the original. I absolutely ignore the items in the bottom of the pool. This really is just a remixed version of the original with a larger center of the map. Having a Count Bomb hide a Mega Ball was an interesting idea, though.

#3: Unlike what a lot of people think, this is closer to what I think the water should be like, though I kind of dislike having to jump from up high to get some items on the ground. I liked the concept more of item placement like the Drill Bomb. I also liked the use of the Count Bombs, though I thought the placement was kind of odd to get Tornado Hold. The center feels crowded and small, though. It also was kind of confusing to figure out how to get up high, since there seemed to be only one path up there.

The final verdict for me is:

Smash > Fyone > Mendez > Old

Sorry to say, but if a mapvote occurred early on in any of these maps, I probably would vote yes to changing the map. Still, thank you guys very much for trying to replace the old map.

[Shade Guy]

Hey all you Burst Man entries, get ready for me to comment on your stuff. Keep in mind this is partly comments and opinions and partly suggesting improvements.

-Shade Guy's Danger Rap-

Mendez:
-I dunno man, I liked this map.
-Great visuals.
-Good use of gimmicks (except for Count Bombs, which seemed tacked on, since they were only in one small corridor off to the side).
-Crash Bomb overshadows Danger Wrap's role as an explosive weapon a little bit.
-MTank is way easier to get with Wire than it is to jump to it. Perhaps you could move it to the centre of the ledge, on the opposite side of Crash Bomb?

Fyone:
-Very reminiscent of MM7BUR. Not that that's a bad thing; I've been guilty of lifting layout concepts from core maps myself (coughcoughSHA08coughcough).
-Count Bomb hiding a weapon was a cool concept.
-Poor Danger Wrap is neglected in this map. It's the stage weapon! What's it doing in the pool, and without a dark circle indicating there's anything there, too?
-Astro Crush is pretty unwieldy in some of the more enclosed areas of this map. Not a very good fit for this map, really.
-There's an over-reliance on Mega Ball, a non-MM7 weapon, to get goodies. Seriously, to get Time Stopper, Astro Crush, Laser and Arrow, you need Mega Ball. Perhaps Super Adaptor would have been more fitting?
-Not enough ways to reach the Scorch Wheel ledge from the Thunder Beam pit, especially odd since there are a few pipes around which look like you should be able to climb the ledge by jumping on them.

Smash:
-This map's layout is...Curious. It looks like it rigorously follows a 128x128 grid, which is limiting in itself, but the paths made with this 128x128 grid are, generally, unnecessarily convoluted. Some spots which stand out in this aspect include:
The set of steps to Magnet Missile
The barricade between Wild Coil and Ring Boomerang
Barricade behind Power Stone, near Bubble Lead tunnel
There are probably some other spots, but those are three that immediately came to mind.
-No glowing flask props? Insignificant, but it's odd those props were left unused.
-Being able to use Tornado Hold to run across the borders of the map is bleh

Also, I voted for Mendez.

[SmashTheEchidna]

Mendez: Pretty good, I say! I had a lot of fun playing on this map. The yellow water could probably change though, as a lot of people don't like the thought of swimming in pee.


Fyone: Eh, It's not too bad, but personally I don't really think there should be any large pits like that. Maybe some small spike pits, but not bottomless. Burst Man never had pits in MM7.


Smashbro: Transparent water is a yes in my book. However, I don't quite like the layout too much. Like most people said, it's far too narrow. I do like the way the time bombs were used, though.


Final Vote goes to Mendez.

[*Alice]

Burstman, just like Waveman has no good map in my opinion.

Fyone's map basically keeps some of the things that made me dislike vanilla Burstman (like thin walkways over pits and that purple goo pit) and combines it with what makes me dislike Copy's Topman entry: Too much wide open space. But it is still better than both of those maps, in a way.
Mendez's map is too instadeath-heavy in my opinion. While it is better than Fyone's map I just can't like it. Eddie also easily ruins the whole flow.
Smashbro+b's map does not feel cheap unlike all the other Burstman maps, but it just feels empty. However, like with Beed28's Waveman map I feel like this could be fixed rather easily by redistributng or adding items/weapons. And I do like how the water works in this map and how the exploding platforms are used.

I voted for SB+B's map.

[King Dumb]

I've already voted for each category, but I'll go ahead and post my thoughts. Avoiding posting about weapon placement and things like that and focusing more on layout (unless a weapon is essential to a map).

Entry #1: Mendez
I liked the layout a lot. Contrary to what others have said, I think the spike usage is just enough to be considerable, but it doesn't get in the way of the flow of the game. Speaking of flow, this map flows very well during Deathmatch games. From the playtesting I can't think of any glaring complaints, except that Crash Bomb makes Danger Wrap pointless (shame, because Danger Wrap works so well on the map). The use of the Burst Man waters here is I believe just about the right amount. The sections are navigable and flow well with the rest of the map. Good job on that.

Also, M-Tank is far to easy to acquire with Wire Adapter, but that's already been pointed out.

Visually it's enjoyable to be playing on this map. A big thin that bothered me about the vanilla Burst aesthetically was that the huge pits broke up the map too much and heavily detracted from the visual appeal. This map fixes that.

Entry #2: Fyone
I enjoyed playing on this map, despite the complaints I am bringing up. If this had been the core map prior to this competition, it probably wouldn't be in need of replacement. Hiding Mega Ball with a timer was clever, but that fact that Mega Ball is required to get Time Stopper and Astro Crush and (more importantly) Arrow and Laser Upgrades hurts this map's flow quite a bit. Otherwise, the flow is fairly good. The Thunder Beam pit, as was mentioned by Shade Guy, is the biggest offender here, as it's currently a deathtrap with few escapes. The path out of that pit toward Ice Wave kept fooling me and making me think I could jump up to the flanking platforms with small health and energy from the Thunder Beam side of the bridge, but you can't. I saw that fool a lot of people; perhaps you could narrow the bridge down to allow that.

While I like that this map doesn't suffer from improper Burst Water usage all too much, I would have liked to see something more than a reproduction of the tedious pit of the vanilla map. In other words, as it stands now Burst Water isn't hurting this map too much, but it certainly isn't helping as I believe it could have been.

Danger Wrap is not only hard to find and acquire, but also extremely subpar on a map that already has Hyper Bomb, Super Arm, Ice Wave, and Bubble Lead for dealing with the outer areas. I am pointing this out because I feel it should do well on its home map.

Visually I did not find this as appealing as Mendez's map, which I believe utilized height to a greater aesthetic effect, but I still vastly prefer this over the core. The pit problems outside have been mostly fixed. Props on redeeming the core map.

Entry #3: SmashBroPlusB
I liked the *inside* of this map quite a bit. Nice area for bouts and fun height variations. The outside is where the complaints come, as an attempt to feature Burst Water turns into, for me, a huge distraction to the fighting. It's lucky some more useful weapons are inside, as it's too much effort to do anything outside in the heat of a Deathmatch game.

The walls being mountable with Tornado Hold is cool but unnecessary.

Visually I liked this map, though the outside area was a little bland. It's too bad it didn't function very well as one. A good way to help this map would be to increase the time the water stays at one level. Now, this wouldn't fix all of its issues, but it'd at least make it fun to play on.


I thought all three maps were improvements over the current vanilla map, aethetically and functionally. I don't like the gimmicks of Burst Man in the first place, but Mendez's map made the best use of them. Fyone's had a good design and fun gameplay too, but I found Mendez's entry to flow a bit better. Mendez gets my vote here.

[Ivory]

Things have slowed down, so I'm going to be closing voting today around 9 PST.

If you want to get your input in, do so today.

[Ceridran]

I'l probably avoid going into this one, it's just too strange to pick an advantage line.

[Hallan Parva]

borp


Bluebrawl
... I really like this map. There's plenty of room to walk around in, Danger Wrap is very effective without being too overpowering, and the map has an excellent flow. There are only really three flaws in the map; first of all, the purple water just seems like it was put in for the sole purpose of having purple water. On top of that you only ever want the water to be low, so you can grab all the goodies easier and you won't instantly die to some jerk with Water Wave if you try climbing out. There's really no incentive for the water being high (even with the Eddie area it's much safer to go under the spike walls when the water's low) and the purple water seems tucked away from most of the map. In addition the Count Bomb steps are a neat little nod, but like with the purple water, the bombs seem to be there just because they can be there. Adding the Count Bombs is nice, but if you're going to include them in your map, why not put some Count Bombs in other areas? Like with the purple water, they're stuck in a corner and out of the way, and I would have liked to see a more even spread on the stage gimmicks.

On the flip side the yellow water works well and compliments the areas it resides in, and the weapon choice doesn't suffer too hard from the floaty jumps yellow water gives players. Of note, Danger Wrap and Wild Coil are awesome in both water types as well as on dry land, something I appreciated a lot in this map. I realize this is an aesthetic gripe but I'm also going to complain about the M-Tank on the ledge. (Mende, you saw this coming.) It would have looked a lot nicer in the center of that area, behind the Crash Bomb... which is something that was brought up in the public SBWT server, as a matter of fact. Having the tank off to the side not only creates an uneven look, it also makes the tank stupidly easy to grab with Wire, Scorch Wheel, Charge Kick, Tornado Hold, or Oil Slider (the latter three being random Eddie drops). I know this can be fixed easily but I'm still a bit chipped by its placement.


Fyone
I really hate when people dick around and mince words, so I'll just come out with it immediately. "Fyone, I freaking hated every minute of your map. If it was added to the core game I think I'd have to throw my 8-Bit Deathmatch face-first into a titanium-plated rhinocerous." There we go, the hard part's out of the way... so let's get to exactly why I screamed "NO" in the chat and spectated every time the server cycled to your map. (Fun fact, other players shared my sentiment... I recall JaxOf7 and Ukiyama also rage-speccing on your map. Just a side note.)

The biggest issue with me would have to be that the map tastes exactly like the current Burst Man. It's as if you opened up MM7BUR on Doom Builder, copied out sections of the map, and then rearranged them into some mixed-up perversion of a jigsaw puzzle. Playing your Burst Man made me remember exactly why I hate core Burst Man. Narrow 128-unit walkways over death pits? Check. Rapid-fire or bomb weapons to knock you into said pits? Check. Large flat areas with a stupidly powerful weapon in the middle? Check. A purple pool where the only ways around it are long outer paths or slogging through the water itself? Check. Filling said pool with tiny pillars and spikes, so if you even slightly fuck up on a jump you're going to be eating death for breakfast? Check. Long expanses with height elevations so you can't shoot down the whole thing, but then ruining it by adding a somewhat easy-to-get homing weapon? Check. Really, the only thing you didn't lift from the map was the bouncy bubbles, but between the other cloned areas I didn't even notice they were missing in the first place.

Ignoring the layout, your weapons are the exact opposite of what many people would consider "enjoyable" or "moderately fun". All of the trademark "fuck you" duelist weapons are here: Arrow Buster, Flash Bomb, Thunder Beam, Ice Wave... the works. LlamaHombre commented that when he first opened the map and saw it was made by Fyone, the first thing he did was look for the Super Arm because it's the only weapon that ever exists to that guy. Sure enough... the map contains Super Arm. Most glaringly though isn't the cringingly painful weapon choice, but the fact that Danger Wrap is all-but-absent from the map. I brought this up when I talked about my Top Man map, but a stage should be designed first around the Robot Master's weapon, and second around the stage gimmicks and appearance. Danger Wrap sucks giant brass robo-balls on the map, and strangely enough it's somewhat hard to get despite it being so damn awful. The only -- and I mean THE ONLY -- Danger Wrap weapon token is hidden in the middle of the purple splooge pool. Why in the world would you hide the weapon you are supposed to be showcasing???

Oh yeah, I didn't even come close to talking about Mega Ball and your two little "presents" on the center towers. Seriously?

I'm done, I'm done, I can't take it anymore, I am so fucking done.


SmashBro
It wouldn't be fair to "critique" myself and just make my map look the best, so instead I'll cover some design choices I had in mind when building the map. In a sense, it's a smaller version of what I did for my Top Man stage. As I've mentioned several times before, the most important thing in my eyes is making sure the "host" weapon doesn't suck. It doesn't have to be the best weapon on the stage (and it probably shouldn't be!) but you should make sure the weapon gets a fair amount of use in your average match. Danger Wrap is awesome in the center room due to the elevation differences, and it's great on the outside walkways due to its sticky mine property. Wild Coil can out-damage it, Bubble Lead is deadly on the walkways, and Search Snake or Ring Boomerang offer more stable damage versus players on stairs or higher elevations, but Danger Wrap is still more than effective.

A problem I saw in the core Burst Man as well as in Mende's map (remember, it's five months old, I saw it plenty of times beforehand) was that the purple water was rarely visited, and when it was, players only jumped in once or twice to get the OP stuff and then never spoke of the pool ever again. In Mende's map, there was also little incentive for the water to be raised high, further limiting your chances to go metaphorical dumpster diving. My map was mainly inspired by The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. In particular, I thought back to the Hyrule Castle Sewers sub-level. As the wolf form, Link has to pull levers to raise and lower the water level to advance; with high water, he can swim over spikes on the floor, and with low water, he can swim underneath certain gates that aren't lowered fully. I designed the outer area of the map with the alternating water level in mind, especially fitting considering the rising and falling purple water was a major gimmick of Burst Man's actual stage in Mega Man 7.

High water is actually more beneficial than low water, in my opinion. With high water you can grab the two weapons stuck to the bottoms of bridges, Drill Bomb and Dust Crusher. Falling from a higher elevation isn't as guaranteed to send you to the bottom, which can save you from hitting certain spiked floors. High water also has more exit points to climb out of the water. The lowered water is harder to escape from, but you also have more rewards available to you. The two lower spawns for Power Stone are much easier to get, and there are a couple of W-Tanks as well as a Treble Sentry that are only obtainable with low water. Tango Roll is also easier to pick up, and the player isn't slowed down when using a walkway lower than the high water's peak level.

Tornado Hold was placed for a few reasons. It made escaping the water at low tide much easier, as well as providing an easy link between the lower walkways and the higher areas. Tornado Hold also lets you snag Super Adaptor, a fair reward for the effort and risk the player exerts. Walking on the stage boundary was actually unintentional; I simply forgot to tag everything as an impassable linedef. Tornado Hold also let me get creative with Count Bomb placement, which was something Burst Man's MM7 stage had a lot of fun with. In the original game, there were staircases made of bombs, bridges made of bombs, bombs placed over other bombs... plenty of options, really. I wanted to echo that in my stage as well, not only with the Tornado Hold area but also the makeshift Count Bomb bridge in the southern end of the map.



After taking everything into account, Mendez did his research. Fyone's experiment was a failure.

[Ceridran]

Waait

wait

Fyone hid the Danger Wrap in the pool?

I'l consider revoting.

[Knux]

I think it was: Mendez > Fyone > SmashBro > Core.

- You introduced the SNES yellow water and gave it a good use, Mendez. Danger Wrap is great for use on most of the map, and the purple water is used in an adequate manner. I have a complaint, though. Although I never hit them, the spikes above the yellow water where Danger Wrap is could be... well, unfair if someone jumps not noticing the dots. Also, Eddie seems incredibly difficult to get as waiting for the water to drop/rise can make you a free frag easily. However, this is still the map I had the most fun playing in, and well, you've amused me with yet another work of art. I take my hat off to-- oh right, I don't wear hats. Here, have this trophy instead.

- Fyone surprised me with taking the core map and improving upon it. Perhaps it wasn't the best of the maps, but it was a clever idea regardless. However, I feel he could've concentrated on improving upon what everyone hated the most about the core map: walking through pipes with pits on the side. Could've used rails or something. I'm not commenting on weapons oh shnap, astro and time, and although it wasn't executed in a very strong fashion, it was a clever idea regardless and inspired me to think of a nice idea (not saying!). Good job, Fyone.

- SmashBro, it felt unfair that your map's water gimmick broke online, like most of the other maps, and I feel a little sorry for it. In the few instances I had it working though, it was fun getting the weapons and things below the water. My complaints about this are the hard-to-get Tornado Hold, which won't reach up to the Super Adaptor platform anyway. Also, the narrow paths beside the water could be wider. In some matches, I ran into particularly aggressive players and was forced into the water. Danger Wrap still works fine in this level though, which is nice. Not a bad attempt, but it could've been better.

- You're drunk, Core, go home.

That's what I thought for Burst Man entries.

[Ivory]

Well then, now that the forums are back. Now I can officially close voting.

Thank you everyone who provided their input.