Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale (v4b)

[Linnie]

Hey, MrL, I've been following a conversation that I personally agree with, and some people say you should remove A_STOP from the Hales to get rid of hitstun.

Do you have any thoughts on that? I think it's a great idea to quicken the pace of matches and keep the Hale from getting stuck in place when they get hit by a weapon like Fireman's alt.

[Stardust]

I'm asking this question here because your mod is extremely popular as you merged the two most famous mods,
Are you still going to make a comptability for a Saxton Hale version, even if the developper doesn't allow you to ? In other words, will you overpass and not respect a mod that doesn't want a class comptability ?

[MrL1193]

Hey, MrL, I've been following a conversation that I personally agree with, and some people say you should remove A_STOP from the Hales to get rid of hitstun.

Do you have any thoughts on that? I think it's a great idea to quicken the pace of matches and keep the Hale from getting stuck in place when they get hit by a weapon like Fireman's alt.

Well, Gilgamesh and the Cave Story duo already use A_ScaleVelocity instead of A_Stop. (In fact, Gilgamesh doesn't even use that on Hard/Expert, and only suffers hit stun from SparkShock-type damage.) The problem with using that idea for all the bosses is that it would throw the weapon balance out of whack. As things are now, weak attacks that score multiple hits are useful for repulsing the boss but have the disadvantage of building up rage faster, while the powerful single-hit attacks deal damage with less rage buildup but don't push the boss back very much. Eliminating hit stun would render the former category of weapons all but worthless. (This is also why I've decided I don't like the idea used in Rebirth of linking rage buildup to damage rather than number of hits--it pushes the weapon balance to the other extreme by eliminating all reason not to use the weak multi-hit weapons. Not that I feel I can really copy that code with a free conscience anyway, as I'm about to explain...)

I'm asking this question here because your mod is extremely popular as you merged the two most famous mods,
Are you still going to make a comptability for a Saxton Hale version, even if the developper doesn't allow you to ? In other words, will you overpass and not respect a mod that doesn't want a class comptability ?

I've already refrained from attempting to make Rebirth compatible with classes for that very reason. When I first mentioned to Tails that I was trying to revive Class Saxton Hale using his Overhaul version, he said he wouldn't stop me from doing it. But when he released Rebirth, he specifically asked that I not add classes compatibility. That's why I didn't try to use any of the new boss changes from that version (even though I really would have liked to add Star Man's meteor main fire).



Oh, and since someone asked me about the CVars I added, I probably should explain the controls here.

"sax_boss" controls which boss is chosen next. If you know the number that corresponds to each boss, you can set sax_boss to the appropriate number to ensure that you'll see that boss. You can even pick the same boss consecutively if you want, but there still must be at least 4 players present in order for duo bosses to be chosen. Also, if you really want to, you can also choose Slender Man if there are at least 4 players (his number is 13), but he doesn't change with the difficulty level. This variable will always reset to 0 as soon as a boss is picked at the start of the round, ensuring a return to random selections (which exclude Slender Man).

"sax_difficulty" controls the difficulty level (of course). It is set to 0 by default, which causes the difficulty to adjust up or down whenever there are three consecutive wins or losses to the boss. If you set it to numbers 1-4, you can set the difficulty in the next round to the corresponding level, after which it will return to 0 and automatic adjusting. If you want to set the difficulty to one level permanently, use numbers 11-14. And finally, if you set sax_difficulty to 10, the difficulty will be random each round.

[Linnie]

Have you considered nerfing the flash attacks (Brightman and Centaurman's alts)?

From what I understand that's the biggest gripe Stardust has with Classes.

[Stardust]

Okay, thanks for answering

Oh and yes, like Linnie said, I thought the flashing should be nerfed, like for instance so that several Bright Man are needed to turn the hale's screen 100% white-opaque (but that's just a proposition of nerf, we could also reduce the ammo charging rate of Bright's ALT)
The reason behind that, is, think about it : Bright Man is ALWAYS the first opponent the hale is looking to kill first, because his annoying factor is bigger than anything. The screen is completly flashed every 3 seconds, leaving the other opponents free to rape. In addition to this servers often have DoubleAmmo on, so yeah... it's not that hard to flash the hale. And since they're mostly melee hales, Bright Man just needs to throw his bulb to the floor to do the "ninja escape effect", like throwing a ball of smoke and running away when the ennemy is blind

[Superjustinbros]

Has anyone out there tried fixing the bug where if a Hale/transformed character goes underwater, they gain gravity instead of losing it?

[MrL1193]

Okay, thanks for answering

Oh and yes, like Linnie said, I thought the flashing should be nerfed, like for instance so that several Bright Man are needed to turn the hale's screen 100% white-opaque (but that's just a proposition of nerf, we could also reduce the ammo charging rate of Bright's ALT)
The reason behind that, is, think about it : Bright Man is ALWAYS the first opponent the hale is looking to kill first, because his annoying factor is bigger than anything. The screen is completly flashed every 3 seconds, leaving the other opponents free to rape. In addition to this servers often have DoubleAmmo on, so yeah... it's not that hard to flash the hale. And since they're mostly melee hales, Bright Man just needs to throw his bulb to the floor to do the "ninja escape effect", like throwing a ball of smoke and running away when the ennemy is blind

There have been a few complaints about Bright Man in the past, but at the time, it seemed like the more experienced players generally felt that he was fine (and indeed, those players were perfectly capable of beating him). Bright Man's play style in Saxton Hale is pretty much is all about crippling the boss with blinding and slowing to give other players a better opportunity to attack. He's unique in that he's more focused on that aspect than other classes with crippling moves (such as Time Man and Centaur Man), and I don't want to take that focus away. As for fighting Bright Man one-on-one, he can be annoying to catch at times, but his attacks are fairly weak, and since blinding the boss does not make you invincible, it's far from foolproof at close range (which is the only time you can be absolutely certain of hitting the boss). I don't really find the blinding to be more effective in these situations than simply using a high-jumping or flying class to get to higher ground (which usually forces the boss to super jump after you, keeping you out of reach for a fair bit of time while the boss flies up far past the ledge). If a nerf is really necessary, I would be more inclined to reduce Bright Man's speed to keep him in a "vulnerable (but still effective) support class" role, but my natural inclination is against it.

Has anyone out there tried fixing the bug where if a Hale/transformed character goes underwater, they gain gravity instead of losing it?

I've never heard of it happening exactly that way, but I did try to fix the boss gravity on completely underwater core maps once before. It didn't work, unfortunately...



In the meantime, I made a quick update in response to feedback on the new difficulties.

(click to show/hide)

General changes:

Fixed the match ending scripts so the map and difficulty changes won't get messed up if the last surviving player spectates.

Boss changes:

Ghost of Star Man V2: Reduced range of Expert rage.
Ninja Spy: Slightly nerfed health across all difficulties (more so on Expert), made fully visible state on Expert last longer and also get triggered by taking damage, fixed the disappearing triggered at low health on last life.
Gilgamesh: Returned rage buildup on Expert to the normal rate, changed Hard rage to normal Rocket Punch, changed Normal rage to normal Bitter End, made Easy Bitter End take longer to explode.

Also, SKZ/Jolt said that he wouldn't mind if I used his boss weapons from Rebirth, so I'll see if I can do something with those. Tails apparently is still against the idea of classes, though, so I'm still not able to borrow just anything I want from Rebirth.

[ServantofCygnus]

I still hate you all for doing that to Quickman. I loved him.he was my bby

[Linnie]

Well, maybe that will just be something special for Hale++ classes when they're made. I'm really pushing to nerf Brightman because flashing classes are the reason Stardust doesn't want Classes in her mode when it comes out.

None of the current Hale makers want Classes in their modes even as an alternative.


It depresses me and I don't know what to say to convince them otherwise.

[Orange juice :l]

Why not make your own version, then? All the cool kids are doing it.

[Hallan Parva]

I normally stay as far away from Hale topics as possible but I just had to stop by and say OJ wins.


If someone's putting forth the time and effort to create a game mode they truly believe in and enjoy playing the way they designed it, what right do you have to try and force classes up its metaphorical bumhole? It's not an alternative, because once classes get shoved where the sun don't shine, they stay there for good, like the playerbase who occupies their servers. There are more Hale variants than there should be any good reason for, and if one particular version doesn't want classes to be included, then deal with it and go play something else.

Personally I applaud Tails' efforts for revamping the entire "Hale formula" and creating an interesting take on the idea compared to the swarm of clones and imitations, and I completely agree with the decision to build the mode as "no classes allowed" in order to keep things sane and balanced for both sides.

[MrL1193]

Re: Bright Man.

I spent some time testing Bright Man for myself by playing as him. The results were...not spectacular. Did I succeed in annoying the bosses? Absolutely; the players were often very glad to be rid of me. But did I effortlessly thwart every attempt by a boss to close in on me, single-handedly winning each battle? Not even close. The simple fact is, even with the ability to spam Flash Bulbs, Bright Man cannot expect to endlessly stall the boss. Blinding the boss does not guarantee your safety; several times, I got killed right after scoring a direct Flash Bulb hit on the boss. There's also the matter of actually hitting the boss with the Flash Bulb; like I said, your accuracy can only be guaranteed at very close range, and that range is also where the boss might manage to kill you anyway even while blinded. If Bright Man is guilty of anything, it is only of slowing the pace of the game when he is forced to fight the boss alone (which several other classes can do much better anyway, but that's a problem for another discussion). His constant Flash Bulbs can make him more difficult to catch, but since he only does scratch damage with them, he's not likely to beat the boss unassisted.

By the way, during my testing, I did at one point actually ask the players in the server what they thought about Bright Man. Their opinions more or less matched my observations; I didn't notice anyone coming forward to say they thought he was too good.

I didn't ask about or test Centaur Man, but I hardly see how his blinding ability could be a problem, considering how slow it is to recharge compared to Bright Man's. It even conflicts with his teleporting, since that requires full ammo to use.

Personally I applaud Tails' efforts for revamping the entire "Hale formula" and creating an interesting take on the idea compared to the swarm of clones and imitations, and I completely agree with the decision to build the mode as "no classes allowed" in order to keep things sane and balanced for both sides.

I should point out that since SKZ/Jolt is already allowing me to use his weapons, the only things I really wanted Tails's permission to use were the pre-colored boss sprites, solely to eliminate the boss colors glitch. It has nothing to do with stealing Rebirth's "revamped gameplay" at all. (As far as that is concerned, I've already explained why I don't like the rage system used there, and the other main change, the boss speed scaling, apparently was Jax's work.) Tails withheld permission, but since I haven't talked to him directly about it, I can't be certain he understood that I only wanted those sprites. For several reasons, I hope his refusal was only because of misunderstanding...



I've never really been one to create entirely new content...This whole time, I've only been trying to improve an existing mod combo that I liked, weeding out what flaws I could fix and generally polishing it. Some might say that I've been polishing garbage. That's fine; no one's forcing you to like it. But if other people find that they do like the "garbage" once I've polished it, is that really a bad thing? Is it so wrong to seek to improve something without trying to totally alter the (somehow) successful formula that is already present?

[Stardust]

We miss using skins D:

Rebalanced being often hosted with doubleammo (= double bulb charge),  I rarely (never ?) saw a player using anything else but Bright's ALT and Item, through not everybody knows his buster deals 15 damage/shot ! Which is pretty strong. What I mean is that they simply only uses bulbs, and obviously if they ONLY do that, it means the bulb must be really effective on the hale O_o
Then even as a Bright Man, you should still keep your little distance. Some people just want to flash so hard, that they chase the hale's ass and when the hale turns back, Bright is fucked. But that's not a good strategy (some Quick Men also do that : thinking they're 2fast4thehale, they do a barrage of boomerangs behind the hale, thinking they could get away at anytime-- but that's wrong lol.) So, if you keep a medium range distance, you should have like 50-60% of chance of actually hitting the hale with the bulb, and should be enough safe by fleeing.
I guess Centaur Man is okay, as more players seem to enjoy using his normalfire because weeeeee, lots of missiles.

Also SmashBros that's the first time I see you so serious :I

Off-flashing topic, you shouldn't have find colorated skins for the color glitch, Otaku found a wayyyy simpler method for fixing this ._.
You simply add a line of code in the ready state,
SXH1 A 0 ACS_ExecuteAlways(991,0,500)
this for instance fixes the color glitch for Saxton Hale (500 is SH's color scheme)
tadaaaaa

[Linnie]

Why not make your own version, then? All the cool kids are doing it.

Well, that's my biggest issue with Hale: there are too many versions of it in my opinion. Rebalanced, Rebirth, Hyper, ++, Lego's, and even if it technically isn't Hale I count Unholy, though that's on the fence due to it being so different.

I'd much rather see efforts be unified, create fewer Hale modes and combine them while polishing them, so that we get one or two superb mods rather than five or six mods of varying quality. Unholy is obviously excluded from this hypothetical merging due to it not wanting anything to do with Hale.

[TailsMK4]

Logged in just to talk to MrL directly, but do not expect much activity from me on here.

I've already refrained from attempting to make Rebirth compatible with classes for that very reason. When I first mentioned to Tails that I was trying to revive Class Saxton Hale using his Overhaul version, he said he wouldn't stop me from doing it. But when he released Rebirth, he specifically asked that I not add classes compatibility. That's why I didn't try to use any of the new boss changes from that version (even though I really would have liked to add Star Man's meteor main fire).

Nothing personal MrL, it's just I predicted something like this would have happened if Saxton and Classes got combined together. It's actually the reason I've officially left the game (only here now because of the new Saxton mods), because my attempts to get people to do other things besides that combo failed.

I should point out that since SKZ/Jolt is already allowing me to use his weapons, the only things I really wanted Tails's permission to use were the pre-colored boss sprites, solely to eliminate the boss colors glitch. It has nothing to do with stealing Rebirth's "revamped gameplay" at all. (As far as that is concerned, I've already explained why I don't like the rage system used there, and the other main change, the boss speed scaling, apparently was Jax's work.) Tails withheld permission, but since I haven't talked to him directly about it, I can't be certain he understood that I only wanted those sprites. For several reasons, I hope his refusal was only because of misunderstanding...

And I'm not sure where this view that I wasn't going to allow you to use the skins to fix your color issue came from. I thought I heard you say some time ago when I was thinking of doing the idea that you were also going to try it, so I thought you already made them. I'm just going to say this to end any further doubt of this: the recolored skins are free to be used in any Saxton Hale mod to resolve the color issues. They are really just edits of the original skins. I would like to ask that you give Smash/Gizmo credit for the recolored skins since he did the majority of the work, and apparently also revised a few of the skins. Also as far as Jolt's weapons go, although I did not directly tell him, my response to him sharing his work kind of implied that I was ok with this.

I really just want other mods to be played more often than just this combo, but I gave up on that a long time ago. I tried Mafia, Rage Roboenza, Bot Apoc...nothing worked. It's not really your fault for this whole mess, Mr.L, but rather I think the community does not want anything else. I'm just saying that I have my reasons to be stone cold set on a certain side of the issue. I hope you understand that. This is nothing against you at all. If this had been a personal project of yours that did not involve classes at all, I would have backed you 100% in giving out the coding for Rebirth.