Why I don't like Saxton Hale in MM8BDM

[*Alice]

Sax is fun whateryoutalkingabout.
At least when playing with a silly class like Toadman, Hardman or Cloudman.

Although I think there should be more variety, I can't help but feel that most of the long-time members are just complaining too much over what is basically a matter of taste.
In other words: This thread is pointless and too much flamebait to be kept alive without the inevitable heated argument.

[King Dumb]

I applaud Musashi for pretty accurately summing up most of the "anti-Saxton Hale" movement pretty clearly, which no one has really done until now.

I would add that, in addition to everything that Musashi mentioned, another, somewhat unrelated, consideration with Saxton Hale is that because it is so appealing, it has grown into a monstrous conglomeration of following, files, and versions, which makes it unappealing and messy in principle. Over 80 different files exist pertaining to Saxton Hale, which you can compare to around 40 files involving YD/Jaxof Classes.

The only thing that'll kill Saxton Hale is time.

Try getting other people to join other servers with you and play other mods more often instead of sitting and complaining about it. You're not going to solve the problem by pointing and shouting "This mod is too popular! No one plays anything else!" without actually playing something else yourself.

I want to point out that you've contradicted yourself here. I'm only pointing this out because it highlights an important consideration. You say that the mode will only depopularize with time, but then go on to say that being passive will not depopularize it. The former (that is, the argument for "time") is not the case. The latter, then, is; at least in part.

The key principle is that people will play what they think is 'fun'. CutmanMike has pointed that out on multiple occasions. It is important to note that defining 'fun' is a detailed process in and of itself, because obviously different kinds of people find different kinds of things 'fun' (compare Saxton Hale enthusiasts to those that... don't find it fun!) It follows then that, if people are to decrease their Saxton Hale time and increase their play time in other modes, one of the following must occur:

1) Offer them an alternative that is more 'fun'. This can be accomplished in two ways, because we know that most everyone's definition of 'fun' at least partly includes the participation of notable amounts of other people. So:
a) Make a new mode that appeals to people more than Saxton Hale.
b) Popularize existing modes by increasing participation; it has been observably shown that inputting some amount of participation will output even           more participation. In other words, people often play modes that other people are playing.

2) Make Saxton Hale less 'fun'. This tends not to happen because if a mode becomes 'ruined' according to its player base, it is quickly mended; this is especially the case with Saxton Hale because there are so many people eager to upload their own version or fix, to contribute to the players' enjoyment of the mode.

Of course, these options assume lots of other variable remain constant, like overall player base demographics, etc. These are probably beyond the scope of this specific topic.

However, threads like this are only useful up to a certain point. I would say this is probably the last time anything worthy will come out of a topic like this, and that is only because Musashi was so clear in his explanations.

By this point, there are only a few potential reasons for why Saxton Hale is still so popular (one or more of the following):

1) The people who wish for it to change, cannot (don't have the right ideas *and/or* don't have the skills to create an alternative; or, do not have the time to change it).
1a) People who have the skills to change it, don't have the time or the right ideas. People with the  rightideas don't have the time or the skills. People with the time do not have the skills or the right ideas.
2) The people who can change it, do not care to and/or do not wish to.
3) Saxton Hale is the pinnacle of enjoyment for its current playerbase (that is, the option of an alternative is removed).
4) Any number of psychological or personal reasons constraining one or more individuals not constrained by 1, 1a, and 2.

Notice that none of these are solved by 'waiting'. Even the 1, 1a, and 2, which refer to the "cycle" that many people refer to, do not get solved simply with time. They get solved when constrained people with the potential to bring about the change find either the time, the skills, or the right ideas.

EDIT: I suppose the "need more time" condition would be solved by waiting, but I think enough time has passed to give most everyone constrained by time a chance to act.

Also, note that no where did I mention forcing people to play something else. The hope for "anti-Saxtonists" should be that people wind up *wanting* to play something else.

[Chme]

If SH is so played, it's because a lot of peoples like it, and it will be stupid to force them to play at something they like less.

I don't get the matter with SH: unlike jdude say, the non-bosses aren't just ran away, but always try to attack the Hale, and flyers can't fly longtime with the saxton rebalanced classes.

SH is different from the core 8BDM, but is still 8BDM, so stop this stupid Mod war !

[Magnet Dood]

Yeah, I realized I contradicted my statement after looking at it 5 minutes after posting it. I was too lazy to edit.

I'd rather stick with my second statement instead of my first.

[Knux]

This thread is pointless and too much flamebait to be kept alive without the inevitable heated argument.

If that's what you really thought, you wouldn't have voiced your thoughts like everybody else has so far, which is reason enough not to call it "flame bait" in the first place.

[Gumballtoid]

If it hasn't degenerated into a flame war already, I doubt it will at all.

I go out of my way to avoid joining Saxton Hale servers. There are a number of things that drive me to avoid it, the most prominent being 99% of the time it's hosted with classes, and of course, the mod itself has 8,000 wads you need to download as far as I know. On the rare occasion I join, I see solely Quickman, Gyroman, Pharaohman, and Darkman3. It drives me nearly insane when I actually try to play so I just quit.

Lego's Saxton Hale Boss Rush is far superior to SilrogMK4's, if you ask me, despite having never once been updated. The mod does, however, suffer from underdone bosses and very few at that, which is on account of having never once been updated. Despite that, it's still far more fun and it encourages teamwork.

Despite all this, I'd be happy if more people played Roboenza Swarm or Bot Apocalypse or something without freaking classes for once. I try to start games in those servers but they usually see a peak of 7 or 8 players, and once one leaves, they start dropping like flies. Rarely worth the effort.

Whether or not you think the mod is fun, I don't care. I myself don't. You won't see me in any Saxton Hale servers for the foreseeable future, and I'll still try to get Roboenza Swarm and Bot Apocalypse games going.

[MusashiAA]

We can't stop people playing what they find fun, it's not right. The only way to get people to play something else is to make something new/better and exciting.

True that. That's why I centered my rant on explaining the flaws of Saxton Hale, and not why it shouldn't be played, because we're no one to say what should and should not be played. Some people like Roboenza because they find it fun and thrilling, some people like cheat servers because they enjoy them: we can't tell them they shouldn't have fun.

Bosses like Scrooge McDuck, M. Bison, Ghost of Starman, I know GoS is getting a rework soon enough. Or so I hope. Gilgamesh, he still needs a good rework otherwise probably not, Ra Thor, super adventure rockman so unknown and an exception that is Quote and Curly, are good bosses that match up with that.

In my opinion, only Ra Thor, Scrooge and Bison don't break the context of MM8BDM, but with some of those we still have the issue of gimmicks that try to make the superboss virtually interesting: guess who.

On the rare occasion I join, I see solely Quickman, Gyroman, Pharaohman, and Darkman3. It drives me nearly insane when I actually try to play so I just quit.

It's funny that you identified those specific classes. They more or less embody Scout, Soldier and Sniper from TF2: the closest approximation in TF2 to effective 1vHale fights (most optimal speed, most optimal damage output, highest damage output with lowest risk, most optimal consecutive damage output, abilities that generally decrease risk).




I will say this: I once suggested in the YDClasses devchat that a "Robot Master superboss game mode" should be created in order to compete with Saxton Hale. Grab some classes, and turn them into superbosses with some different abilities and twists: kinda like the super versions of the TF2 team's robotic copies. What I tried to criticize was that the current state of Saxton Hale is, in my opinion, a bad design choice. Not necessarily is it less fun, though. This is where we must come in to introduce a superboss mode that competes with Saxton Hale AND is also superior, which is easily possible.

I can't help but feel that most of the long-time members are just complaining too much over what is basically a matter of taste.

We shouldn't complain about how Saxton Hale is bad and why no one should play it. We should instead complain why no one has thought about making a better Saxton Hale. One that doesn't break the context of the game, one that can be balanced and designed with complete disregard of lol culture, one that rightfully complements with the deathmatch vision of the game without the need of external mods to "fill the design gap": a serious approach to the superboss game mode. Porting VSH to MM8BDM is not a serious approach and will always be flawed, no matter where you look it from: this should've been fixed by us.

[Jatea]

Lego's Monsteropolis Mash is probably on indefinite hiatus due to

Under Siege
coming Never 20XX

But yeah that's basically it for any chance of a rework
Unless someone else is competent enough to make a working base for this that doesn't bug out every minute


Why don't we just port Mann vs Machine to 8BDM instead
And I'm not talking about Mess's Bot Apoc; that's just TLMS vs Bots & Their Leader with extra features & less hassle

like an actual MvM game vs. enemies
so Invasion v2 but with an actual goal and varied maps
and then we can all cry collectively on an Extreme Mannworks run

[Jdude330]

ok, i would love magnet dood's idea, someone work on a no OHKO version of that.
as for chme, ORLY? cuz EVERY SINGLE TIME theres that last person just running around.
as for flying characters, even with the nerf, its still enough for a retreat. every time i am the last one, and am a flyer, i always win.

[Myroc]

If SH is so played, it's because a lot of peoples like it

No, a great deal of people play Saxton Hale because that's the only thing they can play. Or, rather, they're not forced to play it, but since that's where 90% of the online playerbase hangs out, if they want to satisfy the multiplayer MM8BDM itch, that's the only real option they have. And the only way it is going to change is if people actually start playing different gamemodes, which most people are unwilling to do, since no one is playing those gamemodes. It's a Catch-22.

[Balrog]

Funny, part of the reason balrogsh is dead is because I was hoping Classes Saxton would die. It didn't.

I've already said it before, Saxton Hale (and Classes Saxton, and Roboenza, and whatever Lego's working on, and Team Classes, and All Out War 2, and...) is popular because it allows idiots to win without doing anything that merits any kind of recognition, along with griefers who love griefing the Hale with flying classes. The problem is exacerbated for MM8BDM because being part lolmegamanz means having an invariably high proportion of idiots, which leads to most of the playerbase playing modes like Saxton Hale, which leads to...

If SH is so played, it's because a lot of peoples like it

No, a great deal of people play Saxton Hale because that's the only thing they can play. Or, rather, they're not forced to play it, but since that's where 90% of the online playerbase hangs out, if they want to satisfy the multiplayer MM8BDM itch, that's the only real option they have. And the only way it is going to change is if people actually start playing different gamemodes, which most people are unwilling to do, since no one is playing those gamemodes. It's a Catch-22.

Nothing will change this short of actively hiding the game from discovery and beating back everyone who doesn't meet our standards, thus letting the idiot population whither and die. This is untenable, for obvious reasons. FWIW, Tsuki bugged me about trying to get the combination of Classes and balrogsh banned from BEST-EVER. Jenova said that if things worked like that MM8BDM would be banned from the Zandronum master server.

[Knux]

Jenova said that if things worked like that MM8BDM would be banned from the Zandronum master server.

What the fuck? That sounds highly unreasonable for asking a simple request. Yet when CSCC started sucking bandwidth (or some shit, I don't remember), they wasted no time in banning it from BE. That was a reasonable action, which is why it doesn't make sense to me that they'd choose to ban MM8BDM in general from just asking to prevent one mod combination.

Well, who knows. Maybe they're afraid people will keep asking for other mods to get banned. But again, that doesn't make it any less than a shitty attitude.

[MusashiAA]

Saxton Hale (and Classes Saxton, and Roboenza, and whatever Lego's working on, and Team Classes, and All Out War 2, and...) is popular because it allows idiots to win without doing anything that merits any kind of recognition, along with griefers who love griefing the Hale with flying classes.

I'm gonna keep this topic open after you've said that just because you created part of this mess.
Wait I can't lock this? But I created it...well, I'll just let you ride that one out on your own.

Tsuki bugged me about trying to get the combination of Classes and balrogsh banned from BEST-EVER. Jenova said that if things worked like that MM8BDM would be banned from the Zandronum master server.

And Jenova is right, because it's common sense that banning two mods just because a part of the community doesn't like them leads to all kinds of abuse, flame wars and self-mutilation. We shouldn't worry about why people play something that we see as bad, but rather worry about making something better and offer variety to players.

No, a great deal of people play Saxton Hale because that's the only thing they can play. Or, rather, they're not forced to play it, but since that's where 90% of the online playerbase hangs out, if they want to satisfy the multiplayer MM8BDM itch, that's the only real option they have. And the only way it is going to change is if people actually start playing different gamemodes, which most people are unwilling to do, since no one is playing those gamemodes. It's a Catch-22.

I don't think it's a matter of plotting the creation of a server with an specific mod, raid it to bloat the player count, and entice the SH player base into it...I will mantain my argument: we can create something better than Saxton Hale, something everyone can enjoy.

If it were an issue of no variety, the solution is simple: let us host something different every three days or so, and keep that initiative alive.

[*Alice]

... well it is understandable.
Traditionally the Doomers haven't really appreciated mm8bdm's existence too much.
And asking to ban one type of WADs (Saxton Hale) because some people dont like it would make it okay to ban other WADs some people don't like, including mm8bdm.

[Knux]

I don't think Jenova is aiming for a matter of fairness, though. From the way it was worded, it sounded more like it would be the easiest way out from the first time such a matter is asked, which is sloppy. Not assuming Jenova was indeed being sloppy, but that's just the way I perceived it. On the other hand...

we can create something better than Saxton Hale, something everyone can enjoy.

If it were an issue of no variety, the solution is simple: let us host something different every three days or so, and keep that initiative alive.

Musashi hit both nails, and I agree with both points.

EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the need to rework Saxton Hale to something more Megaman has to do with the fear of the game as a whole devolving into something it really isn't. I, for one, feel this "fear".