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Author Topic: State of the Servers  (Read 16239 times)

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October 22, 2013, 03:38:52 PM
Reply #30

Offline Kapus

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Re: State of the Servers
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2013, 03:38:52 PM »
Did you read the topic before posting in it again, Rozark?

Just curious.

October 22, 2013, 03:50:49 PM
Reply #31

Knux

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Re: State of the Servers
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2013, 03:50:49 PM »
Quote from: "TailsMK4"
I decided I would host some vanilla modes. Right now I've got LMS, Team LMS, and CTF up.
Mind hosting my CTF pack in there? Though you'd need to have 04 out of rotation due to it's sheer size.

October 22, 2013, 06:23:09 PM
Reply #32

Offline OtakuAlex

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Re: State of the Servers
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2013, 06:23:09 PM »
Quote from: "Rozark Kyouko"
Oh look another thread that says the game is dying but people are playing it.

Why is this a Bi-Monthly thing.
It's just the same core "idea" where all we do is discuss how to bring the game back but never do because noone has motivation.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
People are playing a mod of MM8BDM. In essence, this is playing the game.
-insert Knux's bad sand juice metaphor here-
We're not dying, we're still alive and kicking.

I might've sounded like an ass but I'm being serious, this really is a bi-monthly, if not monthly topic.

I think people are complaining that the core game is dead, meaning that no one plays without certain overrated mods. While I do get sick of Playing SH over and over again after a while, I don't mind it too much. Also, I see that people aren't doing much to add more variety, so I'm brainstorming ideas and attempting to bring them to life, though I'm not sure if I have the right amount of determination to work on some of this.

October 22, 2013, 06:35:11 PM
Reply #33

Offline Messatsu

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Re: State of the Servers
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2013, 06:35:11 PM »
Honestly, the only thing I can say is that if the fact that Saxton Hale is the only mode that's played bothers you so much, then please, PLEASE go into any other server and wait.  Yea, it can get tedious as hell just waiting for other players to join.  I tell you though, if enough players want to play the mode, they will eventually join.  I'm ALWAYS hosting a vanilla DM server, yet it's rare for it to be populated.  This is the same issue that happened a long time ago when Roboenza was the most popular mod.  Everyone complained that nobody was playing DM, yet nobody actually went to play DM, instead they joined Roboenza and complained.  Not exactly beneficial overall.

Personally, I hate it when ever any single mod is popular for too long as it stagnates the community as a whole.  The way to break out of this is to grab your friends, and play other modes.  If a mode you want to play is not hosted, request it to be.  I've gotten a few requests to host things like CTF, but it's exceedingly rare for people (even the person who requested it) to join.  Still, it can't hurt.

October 22, 2013, 11:59:57 PM
Reply #34

Offline Shmeckie

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Re: State of the Servers
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2013, 11:59:57 PM »
It's a little irksome for someone like me, who's been gone for awhile and wants to jump back in, to find a buttload of servers with no one in them, and most of the servers being alternative game modes. Personally, I don't find a lot of the extra modes terribly fun. I just like to jump into a Deathmatch or CTF game to kill time between jobs/projects. But, sadly, folks seem to be obsessed with LMS or Saxton Hale, and I'm mysteriously unable to host servers anymore. Otherwise I'd bring back my dedicated Classes DM server in a heartbeat.

I'm a simple kinda guy. I like to jump into a room with minimal modding (I've seen hosted rooms with over 10 different wads hosted. Now that's downright silly), cut loose, have some fun, and not have to wait 5-10 minutes to actually play (seriously, why is it all the popular modes seem to include a buttload of waiting)? It feels like the list of available servers is more about catering than giving simple folks, or new folks, a chance to just jump in and have some fun. With the way some folks just childishly whine and throw fits if god forbid anyone plays game modes they deem unworthy, I guess to an extent I can't blame the hosts, but it's still irksome.

I mean, heck, on the day I decided to start playing again, I didn't even get to play with folks. I had to redownload mod after mod (besides the initial 2 I cared about; the main game and Classes), and in the end the rooms were all empty. And when I finally found a room to play in, it was a sparsely populated Duel server consisting mostly of a continuous chat stream of complaining and only half the people in the room actually playing. Kinda depressing, especially with how much fun this game can be. I don't want to see it fizzle and die because of an overly entitled playerbase...

October 23, 2013, 01:34:23 AM
Reply #35

Offline ZeStopper

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Re: State of the Servers
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2013, 01:34:23 AM »
True dat Shmeckie!
Saxton used to be fun, but it's lame and Tails himself said that he doesn't like it.
And he made the new one!

I just want to see regular ole classes back up.

October 23, 2013, 02:37:49 AM
Reply #36

Offline TailsMK4

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Re: State of the Servers
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2013, 02:37:49 AM »
I did not say I didn't like it, it is just I am tired of Saxton Hale for now, because for the past few months or so my activity was almost all SH. I have, however, been tired of YD's Classes since it went beyond v1a. Quite a few people now have implied that I am a hypocrite, which is FAR from the truth. I knew that if Classes Saxton were to happen, people would not stop playing it. At least I predicted THAT correctly. Now, how to get people to stop playing it? No clue. I just want a break from SH because I had been doing all kinds of coding work with it. I'm just burnt out right now, but I will get back into it eventually. I'd rather do things like Bot Apoc or Rage Roboenza...but other people seem to want to stick to the popular mods. LMSGames has been doing a decent job at getting people away from Classes Saxton (and Classes in general), but it's not enough.

October 23, 2013, 02:49:18 AM
Reply #37

Offline King Dumb

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Please don't warn me okay okay
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2013, 02:49:18 AM »
If you're lazy and/or you don't want a very nice history lesson, please skip to the last section of this post.

Quote

Oh look another thread that says the game is dying but people are playing it.

Why is this a Bi-Monthly thing.
It's just the same core "idea" where all we do is discuss how to bring the game back but never do because noone has motivation.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
People are playing a mod of MM8BDM. In essence, this is playing the game.
-insert Knux's bad sand juice metaphor here-
We're not dying, we're still alive and kicking.

I might've sounded like an ass but I'm being serious, this really is a bi-monthly, if not monthly topic.

Okay, I'm really tired of shit like this. Firstly, this doesn't pertain to the topic of this thread.

Secondly, the basic operant logic and semantic disregard with which you craft such statements as "people are playing a mod of MM8BDM. In essence, this is playing the game." is really fucking annoying. Yes, we can all see the server on Doomseeker or IDE that has tons of people and that has the "megagame.wad' IWAD. Pointing out that "Guys, people are playing on a MM8BDM server all the damn time so the game isn't dying" doesn't prove your point; it proves that there is a semantic disconnect between the arguing factions about the definition of a "lively MM8BDM" and of a "dying MM8BDM". Personally, I prefer my MM8BDM dynamic, not stagnated, and I'd prefer if people played a variety of modes so that everyone will like something rather than one mode (or one strict type of mode) that a lot of people don't like. That latter condition I (and many others) call "dying".

Thirdly, the general dismissive tone used in this post and posts like it (made both by Rozark in the past and others) is starting to piss me off more than I can handle. People are complaining. *Obviously* there is discontent with the current state of the servers. It doesn't make a lick of difference whether you think MM8BDM is alive or not because there is always a full server. What matters is that fewer people on Cutstuff spend time enjoying (or even enjoy) MM8BDM gameplay. I'll return to this point in a bit.

-----------------------------------------

Now, back to the actual topic of this thread. First, a short history lesson.

Saxton Hale was released about a year and a half ago. Its popularity has not waned notably since then. Prior to its release, Rage Roboenza and Classes (the other two most popular modes of play in MM8BDM history) were released about a year earlier; Classes about 1.25 years earlier. In the 1 year between Rage Roboenza and Saxton Hale, Classes continued updating with new content fairly often until April, when v6c was released; this was the last release to add completely new classes. Saxton Hale was released less than a month later.

Since the release of Saxton Hale, Rage Roboenza has all but died in popularity, and Classes has been integrated into Saxton Hale. The only things that have attracted similar player counts (and only for very short times) have been GvH, LMS Games, Classes T/LMS, very recently Bot Apocalypse, and new releases. Nothing has shifted the balance.

Meanwhile, since May 2012 work has been constantly under way for version releases; first v3a, then v3b, and now v4a. Competitions involving actually playing the game have arisen and have failed, for the most part. Competitions involving modding for the game have arisen, and have been successful. Many forum regulars frequent Forum Games and develop their personal mods.

So, what's the difference between the time period from May 2012 to present (the reign of Saxton Hale) and April 2011 to May 2012? Well, recall what the state of the servers was like in that latter time period. Lots of classes. But also lots of Bot Apocalypse, CSCC, and Rage Roboenza. When people complained about something during this period, it was usually Classes overpopulation.

-------------------------------

Orange Juice in his original post intends to pose two questions to everyone.

1. Do you enjoy playing MM8BDM on existent servers now?
2. Would you enjoy playing MM8BDM if we rolled back the server pool to a year or two ago?

The "playing" aspect is important for a number of reasons: 1) this topic is about the state of the servers, 2) it highlights the hypothesized disconnect between most forum-goers and the actual game, and, I can't stress this last one enough, 3) it asks whether or not you can even enjoy playing your own creation! If you can't enjoy your own creation you are a tool or you are simply electing not to think before you make! (To present a specific case of this example, take Zandronum. It is a community big enough to support both content developers (mappers, skin makers, weapon makers) and game mode developers. I can guarantee you beyond a shadow of a doubt that without the latter group of people doing what they do, Zandronum would die.)

Everything that anyone has or will say regarding this topic utterly pales in comparison to the fact that the majority Cutstuff has stopped enjoying MM8BDM. I'm not talking about modding for MM8BDM, I'm talking about MM8BDM the game. I don't give a rat's ass why any one person has stopped enjoying it; no one is so important that their particular reason matters to the game as a whole. Those people need to do whatever the hell they need to do to rekindle their interest in playing MM8BDM, or they need to pass their torch along and move on. And I will give you a hint: if you don't enjoy the game right now, v4a alone will not change that fact.

October 23, 2013, 04:29:57 AM
Reply #38

Offline Shmeckie

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Re: State of the Servers
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2013, 04:29:57 AM »
I totally agree with what you're saying. What makes it worse is how much I'd love to introduce friends and such to the game, but I know it'd be useless because I'd have to get them a million mods to play some alternative game mode and expect them to grasp it when they haven't even had time to learn the basics of your average PvP vanilla DM.

October 23, 2013, 07:16:49 AM
Reply #39

Offline Rozark

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The Law of Diminishing Return
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2013, 07:16:49 AM »
I explain how this topic is a moderation of the core idea I mentioned and, according to KD and others, discuss this topic's actual goal.

(click to show/hide)

October 23, 2013, 02:47:06 PM
Reply #40

Offline King Dumb

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Boldfaced phrases are the key ones.
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2013, 02:47:06 PM »
Quote
Annoying? Yes. True? Yes.

No, not true. Your terms are different from mine. I gave you the chance to consolidate this fact. Since you did not take up that opportunity, allow me to do it for you. Additionally, arguments that are annoying for semantic disregard tend to be poor ones, for future reference.

Quote
Strictly sticking to my own quotes, but anyways, that's the core idea. Again, moderations to the core idea can and are in effect. True, the thread doesn't say the game is dying but rather already the result of a decayed MM8BDM, but if it really was "dead" or "decayed", people wouldn't be playing it.

First of all, if we are to continue with silly analogies, you're ignoring a very important distinction between "dead" and "dying". I tire of this silly analogy because it allows such absurd semantic disregard. OJ and I have discussed in this in the past, and personally I differ from his opinion slightly because I think MM8BDM is dying, not dead. Now, as I thought I was giving you the chance to do first, I will define this terms.

MM8BDM - The variety of activity in MM8BDM servers over time, relative to the variety of activity of Cutstuff over time. This term thus encompasses the size of the population playing the game, the composition of the population playing the game, and the types of gameplay attracting people.

Dying MM8BDM - One of the following: a) decrease in correlation between activity on Cutstuff and activity in MM8BDM over substantial periods of time (substantial here meaning unprecedented periods); b) a substantial decrease in correlation between activity on Cutstuff and activity in MM8BDM (substantial here meaning unprecedented decreases). As you can see, here is where OJ and I agree. Saxton Hale is not killing MM8BDM. It's something else. And, given your previous arguments, I'm sure you're going to want to point out that I'm making my definitions fit my purposes. That is why I dislike extended analogies, for the record. In any case, that is arguing semantics; we need to stop discussing death and dying and start arguing over the actual problems.

Quote
THIS is the topic's "core" goal without relating it to anything else. Real talk. Let's say you find a game and enjoy playing it. You play it for days and nights, not realizing that a week has already gone by. We've all had those games. Now, a new game comes out or you 100% clear the game. What are MOST people going to do? If option A occurs, they'll switch over to the new game. If option B occurs, they'll go searching for another game or perhaps restart and try to clear it again. Either way, eventually they're going to get tired of it for awhile and go on to something else, going back to the game whenever these "dry spells" are up. Some never return back, while some come back every once in awhile. What I'm saying is, for most cutstuff members, MM8BDM is in a "dry spell" for them. It's "stale" because they got tired of playing the game, like every other game in existence. They're busy playing other games or are complaining over the lack of mode servers besides Saxton Hale and won't play until that's fixed. They won't "enjoy" the game again until it's out of the dry spell. Yes, MM8BDM is in a dry spell for me too, but I should be back in it in about a week or so because Halloween Mapping. KD, we all need breaks from things, you can't expect the game to have ALL of our 100% attention 24/7. That just makes it less enjoyable. The actual term, "The Law of Diminishing Returns", is the core idea of what I've just said. We got tired of playing it for so long so we went to other things, returning back to it when we feel like it.

Firstly, I never said I expected or desired "100% attention 24/7". That is absurd, and your (hastily constructed) argument is partially decomposed because I was never arguing for such absurdity.

Secondly, I could go on about how usage of the term "dry spell" is misplaced in an environment where you can make whatever you want to play it, or I could argue against its usage by citing the very extended period of time this "dry spell" would have to cover, but all of that would be tangential to my point and to the point of this thread.

Quote
I don't give a rat's ass why any one person has stopped enjoying it; no one is so important that their particular reason matters to the game as a whole. Those people need to do whatever the hell they need to do to rekindle their interest in playing MM8BDM, or they need to pass their torch along and move on.

You may be inclined to inquire why exactly such people are a problem? Allow me to explain.

Cutstuff does not enjoy MM8BDM currently. When a new Forum Game, like Mafia, or anything like that, pops out, Cutstuff eats it up like it is gold (at least, until dedication to that dies as well, for the next game). But when someone starts a thread about MM8BDM, what happens? They're laughed at! When I started the Duel Tournament I ran, I looked in various Skype chats: it was ridiculed! The same goes for the Olympics. "Ha, how silly! He's trying to host an event in MM8BDM on Cutstuff! As if such a thing could ever succeed!" Or if someone wants to start a discussion about strategy, that person and their notion is ridiculed. If someone wants to talk about balance in the vanilla game, they are judged and alienated before any actual discussion can take place. Core members of Cutstuff (some, not all, of which have directly stated dislike for the current state of the servers) advocate various methods to remedy the lack of variety in activity, but are unwilling or elect not to partake in these methods themselves. Inability is not an excuse, because they spend their time doing other things on Cutstuff. Disinterest is a reason, but they won't admit it or they won't take the proper subsequent actions. That such people are simply taking a "break" from Cutstuff is absurd; these people themselves will tell you they have lost interest.

And, when someone wants to make a thread discussing community issues or in-game issues, they must do so knowing Cutstuff at large will most often look over their point and pigeonhole the thread as needless drama or flame war.

The bottom line is this: we have a wicked problem on our hands. There is a severe disconnect between Cutstuff and MM8BDM. This is easily noted by observing activity on the forums and activity in servers and comparing the two. This is a problem for the intersection between the two groups. Whoever is not contained within this overlap is either active in-game but not on Cutstuff (this group is largely the bulk of Saxton and Co. players; most of these people are not terribly active on the forums), or is active on Cutstuff but not in-game (these people are the problem, because they are stifling the overlap group).

October 23, 2013, 03:33:26 PM
Reply #41

Offline Jman

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Re: State of the Servers
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2013, 03:33:26 PM »
Honestly, as much as I'm around the kind of anti-hale people, I would say VSH isn't that bad. Though I've taken an utmost refusal to take part in it, because I want those servers less populated. Though, the whole time I've done it, it hasn't seemed too effective. I'm just one person, after all, compared to like 20.

I'm planning several gamemodes that can probably fare very well against the behemoth known as vsh. I'm learning coding rather quickly, so I'm hoping to start some projects by December. If they turn into a new vsh though, I'm going to cry tears of sadness :'(

October 23, 2013, 05:06:48 PM
Reply #42

Offline Rozark

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Whatever KD. Whatever.
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2013, 05:06:48 PM »
Alright KD, whatever.
You hypocrite yourself and ignore my point for the reason of "I didn't say that" when I quote you beforehand when you did say that.
Overusage of bold and more fancy words I don't even.
I understand the difference between dying and dead, and yes at this point you're pretty much making up your own rules.
I've already gone over this topic with the Law of Diminishing Return, but you just ignore it.
Also when you did manage to scrape it, you passed it on as relevance to this thread. I've already said how this period of time is different for everyone, you can't expect a fixed habit of interest for everyone.
Just go ahead and ignore my points then, the topic is pretty much dead/pointless at this point anyways because it's just turning into pointless drama now.
You also agree that people state ways to fix this but lack the motivation to do so. I said that and you didn't agree, yet now you restate it and expect us to agree? No.
So GG I'm just going to go back to Pokemon while you continue to restate things I've already countered against you on, attempting to recounter and just not make any sense at all for the likes of myself.

tl;dr KD ignores points, makes up his own rules, and blows things/the state of MM8BDM out of proportion.

So yes, I'm done, good day to you sir.
P.S. We laughed because it was duel. Everything in this world has a reason.

October 23, 2013, 05:31:56 PM
Reply #43

Offline OtakuAlex

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Re: State of the Servers
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2013, 05:31:56 PM »
Honestly, right now, while I have grown tired of SH, it's not too bad. What really urks me is that people almost never play SH without YD classes, those classes make winning too easy for the survivors, this makes victory as a survivor meaningless and losing as hale having nothing to do with you being bad, it all depends on how cheap the survivors are being with their classes. If people are going to play with extra mods, I just wish it would be more than just YD classes and a few map packs, I remember back when I hosted a SH server, it was extremely popular due to having Uki Weps and such, those weapons are fun to abuse and can't be used with classes. Anyways, if we make more mods and host server for them, we could easily make the alive servers more diverse, DM with weapon packs, Team DM/LMS with classes, LMS with more mods like Roboenza, and we could also merge mods that enhance the gameplay immensely with these mods. If you need an example of what kind of mods we could make to enhance the gameplay, like I always mention, I plan to make two such mods, a Pokemon mod and RPG mod, these would enhance the gameplay since the Pokemon mod would allow you to switch between Pokemon during combat through items that activate player class morphs and there would be a type system and the ability to catch new Pokemon (not savable), while my RPG mod once done will give players the ability to level up, giving them enhanced stats such as HP, ammo capacity, spells, more armor, speed, attack power, and would be saved in a way similar to how the core game saves how far you are. I would like to see more people start projects like the ones i plan to do since they enhance gameplay and are easy to put into a server with other mods without the need of further modification. Come on, fellow modders, we must bring mods other than classes, maps, and LMS modes. We must bring mods that make the game worth playing for hours without end and are easily put with other mods. OK, enough with the half advertisement half inspirational speech, I gotta go figure out what attacks I should give the Pokemon and how I'm going to get my RPG mod to work how I wanted it to.

October 24, 2013, 01:08:04 AM
Reply #44

Offline XJ9

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Re: Whatever KD. Whatever.
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2013, 01:08:04 AM »
Quote from: "Rozark Kyouko"
Alright KD, whatever.
You hypocrite yourself and ignore my point for the reason of "I didn't say that" when I quote you beforehand when you did say that.
Overusage of bold and more fancy words I don't even.
I understand the difference between dying and dead, and yes at this point you're pretty much making up your own rules.
I've already gone over this topic with the Law of Diminishing Return, but you just ignore it.
Also when you did manage to scrape it, you passed it on as relevance to this thread. I've already said how this period of time is different for everyone, you can't expect a fixed habit of interest for everyone.
Just go ahead and ignore my points then, the topic is pretty much dead/pointless at this point anyways because it's just turning into pointless drama now.
You also agree that people state ways to fix this but lack the motivation to do so. I said that and you didn't agree, yet now you restate it and expect us to agree? No.
So GG I'm just going to go back to Pokemon while you continue to restate things I've already countered against you on, attempting to recounter and just not make any sense at all for the likes of myself.

tl;dr KD ignores points, makes up his own rules, and blows things/the state of MM8BDM out of proportion.

So yes, I'm done, good day to you sir.
P.S. We laughed because it was duel. Everything in this world has a reason.
Hate to but in because this isn't exactly my area of expertise, but if you'd actually like to be taken seriously rather than look like a complete child, I suggest you not commit logical fallacies over an over again. It makes your very bad argument look like trash.