MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?

[Korby]

The problem with the old cloudman was that it was two big busterwalls, primarily in team games.

[Lagman]

Busterwalls? What are those?

[Knux]

When there's a room with only one entrance and a team of people shoot Mega Buster at said entrance so that nobody else gets in.

[CopShowGuy]

When there's a room with only one entrance and a team of people shoot Mega Buster at said entrance so that nobody else gets in.

Skull Man's Skull Barrier room.

[King Dumb]

Wait, a fixed path and the path being two-way?

That sounds like a disaster.


I like the other ideas, though.

It is a disaster. Not only will you have people slamming into each other like nobody's business, it's also just annoying and restrictive. I believe (and believed when the SWBT compo was going) that the fast, crashy wavebikes are what makes old MM5WAV cool.

Pretty much nobody else feels this way. And not just "brainless kids who don't know how to navigate with them", but really just most people ever.

EDIT: Clarification: Meaning about the crashy wavebikes being the best part.

Anyway, moving on! CTF maps! Hurrah!

MMCTF01

The Gyro Fans in the bases are in awkward spot. I understand that the Quick Boomerang pits are supposed to be a death trap of sorts as a final challenge to get to/from the flag, but the Gyro Fan's placement is artificially making it harder than it should be to get out of that pit. Too often, trying to maneuver around somebody as you go up the fan results in you simply not making it to the ledge and falling back into the pit. I suggest a number of fixes: raise the ceiling in that area (so that holding jump as you step onto the fan doesn't make you bump your head), or add one more fan on either side to the one currently present. One of those should solve the problem.

Plant Barrier and two extremely accessible W-Tanks (per team!) is a very bad idea for a CTF map. Sure, it technically lends this map its own particular kind of playstyle (you basically know that any flag holder worth his/her salt has Plant Barrier and at least 3 W-Tanks, two from their own base and at least one picked up with the flag), it really just isn't fun. Additionally, as such a small map, by the time you exhaust the holder's first or maybe first two W-Tanks, his/her team has killed you and the holder can grab two more W-Tanks in the time it takes you to get back.

I'd like to suggest adding Rush Coil to this map. It's useful to travel between levels and of course it is useful in the bases. I think you could place it on the ledges with the waterfalls, by Plant Barrier. Hell, Wire Adaptor could work too!

MMCTF02

The Magflies are actually slower than straferunning from one Magnet Missile to the opposite one. I'm not talking SR50, I mean normal straferunning, the kind that almost everyone knows about. This, coupled with the fact that you are much more vulnerable riding a Magfly than you are just moving normally, means they are pretty much useless. And in practice, I notice very few people using them. Speed them up, or replace them with something else, like platforms or something.

If you want to remove them from that section, but want to preserve that specific gimmick in the map somewhere, I'd suggest putting a coupel Magflies circling the center platform (where the White Flag appears), passing over the two adjacent platforms. Keep the platforms where they are though; the Magflies would serve as an alternative (not sole) method of getting the center platform, and also as a fun way to shoot at people attempting to jump there. (Note that I don't actually think this addition is necessary; only if the development team feels some strange compulsion to keep the gimmick in the map. But something definitely must be done about the current Magflies).

MMCTF04

Eddie needs to go. This is the case for every CTF map. Just because the only spawn is in the center of the map does not excuse the harm Eddie can do to an otherwise good CTF game. Remove it, or replace it with SSW's version of Eddie. At the very least, make it so CTF-Eddie cannot give you things like Charge Kick (although this map does not need *any* more weapons as it is).

Knight Crush is too close to spawn, as it is the second most effective weapon for flag defenders after Water Wave.

This map just has too many weapons. Needle Cannon, Metal Blade, Ice Slasher, Dive Missile, Dust Crusher, Gyro Attack, Ring Boomerang, Knight Crush, Crash Bomb, Air Shooter, Water Wave. That is too many for a map of this size. Admittedly this isn't an enormous problem only because it's easy just to avoid picking up half or more of these, but such functionality overlap and sheer surplus are polish-based criticisms that probably should have been fixed before the map was ever released.

MMCTF05

This isn't really about "needing work", but the ledge in the wall directly across from the flag in the Red Base is accessible, but the same ledge is blocked off in the Blue Base (the one in between the two entrances to the light/dark room).

Spark Shock aaaaaa. Personally I am not a huge fan of weapons like Crash Bomb and Spark Shock in CTF maps, but I never find many people who share that opinion (I'm not sure why, really). In any case, Crash Bomb and Spark Shock are much too close to the bases. These are by far the two best defending weapons in the map, and probably the two best defending weapons in the game. They need to be farther away from the bases.

In the gravity room, running along the side of the junk heaps that is closer to the center of the maps leads to a turn then a dead end. This is entirely pointless save for camping. I say get rid of it.

MMCTF06

Hopefully everyone is well aware by now how difficult this map becomes with high numbers of players. The narrow hallways leading the flags are absolute death traps. However, still somehow end on this map, so I don't think much needs to be done. However, I will make one suggestion that makes defending the flag take a little bit more effort. Firstly, push out the windows in those hallways so that you can jump and run along on the sill. Second, extend the windows so they run along more of the hallway, particularly near the non-base entrance. This way, prospective carriers can choose to run along the sill or along the ground, and defenders have to do more then center their view and shoot down the hallway.

Bass Buster is almost entirely useless on this map, simply because W-Tanks are abundant and Yamato Spear is readily available as an alternative. I'm not sure I have a great suggestion as a replacement. Though this map has plenty of weapons as it is.

MMCTF07

Eddie.

My biggest complaint with this map has to do with the Dust Crusher pit. As it stands, it is just too dangerous to use, at all. Moreover, the normal way to get to the flag (the nearby slope) is just so much faster and always safer. I suggest a few changes to make the Dust Crusher route a more viable alternative. Firstly, scrap the teleporter. It will be unnecessary if the following changes are made, and right now all it does is make it almost impossible to escape with the flag through the pit. (Consider this scenario: You grab the enemy flag. You don't want to go through the teleporter for risk of being telefragged, so you run down to the pit. The enemy team can go through the teleporter and stop you. This happens almost every time). Raise the ceiling of the Dust Crusher room, and replace the wider stairs with Gyro Fans. Replace the narrower stairs with a simple slope (extending it into the room so it's not so steep). Additionally, change the currently existing slopes leading toward the flag to stairs that you have to jump up.

This way, the pit is made viable in two ways: firstly, it is made less deadly and difficult to enter/leave; secondly, the alternative (normal way to flag) is made a little more difficult, by adding stairs.

The annoyance of the lindef-activated doors is not really made up for by their usage to partition the Crash Bomb-Gyro Attack hallway. I suggest gittinf rid of them. If you want to maintain the partitioned nature of these hallways, I suggest the following. Once the door is removed, just invert the wall in that center divider. In other words, where the door once was will be a wall, and on either side of the wall will be new openings to the other side of the hallway. This way, movement down this hallway isn't so much of an annoyance, but you still can't shoot down its entire length unless its down one of the sides. If you run down the hallway's center, you can avoid fire from the other section of the hallway.

MMCTF09

I like this map a lot. I will suggest removing Beat Support or moving it out of the bases. It's just too powerful for defending, especially combined with Fire Storm.

----------------

I'll probably post about the rest of the CTF maps later. Maybe.

[NemZ]

Some thoughts on bomb?  Make it a saddle-shaped stage while keeping the symetry mostly intact.  Specifically:

1) raise two opposing sides up, and lower the other two.  use ramps in the narrow hallways.
2) make the current center dividing walls something you can walk on, and actually just an extention of the top of the new high sides.
3) add a thinner wall around the inside of the central area so that it's only possible to shoot down on it from a few fixed locations
3) eliminate the inner pits along the outside to make them a bit wider.  they should stay level with the lower sides and end in walls with ladders up to the high sides.  bombombs should attack these areas periodically.
4) the pyramids on the lower sides bring you high enough to effectively take pot shots at nearly the entire top floor (save that areas that are behind the central walls from your side)
5) the pyramids on the higher sides are inverted, becoming pits in the floor with only one way to climb out but loaded with goodies.
6) add small 'islands' out in the far corners of the map only accessible with beat abuse (perhaps golden orbs?) with some bonus weapons and a one-way teleporter back to the new 'bunker' areas created on top of the current central walls.

EDIT - actually, scratch that... just connect the low pyramids to the top with a 3d bridge and have the ramps up from the center exit through the inverted pyramids on the high sides.  should make the stage much more dynamic.

[Megaman94]

I was playing Mega Man 6 and realized stuff about the MM6 Maps...

MM6PLA does not have the springs used in the end of the stage.

MM6KNI does not have the bouncy wheels

MM6TOM could use a metool dispenser prop since it was in the stage twice

MM6BLI Does not have the count bombs that were used in the end of the stage

[fortegigasgospel]

I was playing Mega Man 6 and realized stuff about the MM6 Maps...

MM6PLA does not have the springs used in the end of the stage.

MM6KNI does not have the bouncy wheels

MM6TOM could use a metool dispenser prop since it was in the stage twice

MM6BLI Does not have the count bombs that were used in the end of the stage

Because the maps don't need to have everything from the original stages or you'd see a lot more actors/gimmicks.

[Megaman94]

I was playing Mega Man 6 and realized stuff about the MM6 Maps...

MM6PLA does not have the springs used in the end of the stage.

MM6KNI does not have the bouncy wheels

MM6TOM could use a metool dispenser prop since it was in the stage twice

MM6BLI Does not have the count bombs that were used in the end of the stage

Because the maps don't need to have everything from the original stages or you'd see a lot more actors/gimmicks.

Still, I think MM6PLA needs to be redone. Something about the easily obtainable rain flush annoys me

[Tfp BreakDown]

It is being redone. Are you this daft?

[Ivory]

Someone hasn't been paying attention to the v4 thread.

[Megaman94]

Someone hasn't been paying attention to the v4 thread.

Oh, ok so this is the new MM6PLA:

[Hallan Parva]

Eddie needs to go. This is the case for every CTF map. Just because the only spawn is in the center of the map does not excuse the harm Eddie can do to an otherwise good CTF game. Remove it, or replace it with SSW's version of Eddie.

please leave

this is discussion about the core game and how to improve it

[Knux]

Actually, Mike already said he doesn't want a CTF Eddie, which I suggested well before v3a was released. Therefore yes, Eddie shouldn't be in CTF at all.

[King Dumb]

Eddie needs to go. This is the case for every CTF map. Just because the only spawn is in the center of the map does not excuse the harm Eddie can do to an otherwise good CTF game. Remove it, or replace it with SSW's version of Eddie.

please leave

this is discussion about the core game and how to improve it

I am a little shocked at how rude this was.

Replacing Eddie in CTF with SSW's version would be an improvement to the core of the game. What's so radical about taking work down independently by a modder and, with his/her permission, using it in the core? Nothing. That's kind of a common practice.

Although yes, Knux is right, CMM does not (at least, did not) want a CTF version of Eddie. So Eddie should just leave CTF altogether. Scorch Wheel was removed from MMCTF03 for a reason; Eddie is guilty of the same offenses.

EDIT: Clarification: The take away here is that currently Eddie in CTF is very bad. SSW version or not (twas just a suggestion which I know has been brought up before, that was absolutely nothing new), doesn't really matter what the fix to those particular maps is.