MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?

[Megaman94]

Woah woah woah, I thought Cutman Mike said he wasn't going to change Cut Man's map....

He isn't, Ivory is.

I meant that he was against changing it

[Emmanuelf06]

mm1cut has a potential to be a better map, see the map of cutman in the singe player mode (mmsp). (:
With stairs, platforms....

[Ivory]

He was against it. But then I made the changes on my own time and he grudgingly liked it.

[Megaman94]

He was against it. But then I made the changes on my own time and he grudgingly liked it.

Well, I am glad he had a change of heart. MM1CUT was too plain.

[Knux]

I did not know that disliking a map is such a bad thing to do, Knux. I mean, not being allowed to say "hey this map is bad or not fun, and here are some reasons" would basically make this thread not possible.

Well, have some useless credit for trying, Beed28, Knux and Max. I still don't really like either of your Wave Man maps.

And there it is again. I gave you a chance to explain why it was a bad map, but since you can't come up with something concrete, my point still stands. That you liked them or not is an entirely separate matter. I thought I made that clear enough for people to avoid logical fallacies, but I guess I'm asking for feedback where I won't get it.

Guys, seriously. Avoid this kinda shit. Most of us are willing to listen, but without any concrete feedback, we can't do much about it other than maybe sit around and procrastinate. Of course though, this is under the assumption that if you found a map that you thought was bad, you want a better one.

[MusashiAA]

Knux, stop trying to defend yourself. That's going to end up derailing this topic into a mapping fistfight. You can tell people how you feel in PMs, not fucking here. You'll end up wasting a good thread.

I'm still witnessing the v3 map changes, and have seen the new map changes for v4, and it seems there is a strong motivation to replace most quadrilateral arenas like MM2HEA or funnel arenas like MM6WIN. A thing I think is unnecessary, as it compromises map variety and could push up the overall difficulty. A map with a very minimalistic layout isn't really bad if you distribute terrain elevation properly without changing the layout. Not only that, but minimalistic layouts are ok if you leave room for people to take a breather between encounters (a huge problem with current MM1CUT).

I think that is all I can say for now. Just don't be overzealous about replacing old maps because they're square-ish and have minimalistic layouts. Find other reasons to change those. MM2HEA is fine, MM1CUT was not.

[Messatsu]

I think the important thing to take away is that if you have an issue with ANY map, then it helps if you are specific on what it is you'd like to see changed.

 For example: I still feel that Dive Man's map is kinda blah compared to many others.  Mainly because it's a big open water area with one other room.  There's certainly fun to be had, especially with Astro Crush where it is.  It really needs to have more of Dive Man's gimmicks, such as the water moving up and down, maybe have some platforms above the water containing goodies.  It's certainly not the worst map, and since Mike flattened it out a bit, it plays much better.  However, I feel that the map has more potential than what's there.

On a side note: I actually had the most fun playing Knux's Wave map out of all of them.  I felt each of them brought something unique to the table.  Knux's had the best land combat, YD's had the least frustrating and most clever use of the wave bike gimmick and Beed's struck a pretty good balance of the old design and more land.

[cybersavior]

As it concerns argument over what maps are good and which aren't

I feel that its all opinion based, some people like the wide open Paintball arena style maps like were made popular in the Unreal tournament series,
others happen to like maps that have multiple hallways and routes with various cover and even the odd hiding place giving them a feel of a Goldeneye/Perfect Dark feel.

Neither viewpoint is wrong or right, its just personal preference, I personally do not like use of gimmicks too much, as I feel they are sometimes over used, but some people do?

I personally prefer maps in the style of the complex or even mazelike layout of Golden eye/Perfect Dark, versus Wide open Paintball arena style maps.

We are all entitled to our opinions, we all have things we would have done different about maps that were made, this is our opportunity to share that, if someone disagrees don't take it too personally, some people have already voiced differing opinions of things I mentioned, and that's fine, they are all opinions nobody is right or wrong. If you do have an opinion though, give details to back it up.

Maybe some of the new maps will be variants, but even if maps get replaced, I am sure the originals will eventually be incorporated into either the Legacy Map Pack or some other form of Nostalgic map pack some time down the road, all in all we will just have more maps, and that can never be a bad thing.

 

[Tfp BreakDown]

The only map that I could to be changed is bright. Mostly for the navigating the pitch darkness when the wattons are shot. Personally I would like to see an easier way to navigate in the dark. And maybe have it so the pits are easy to fall in when it's dark.

[Knux]

Knux, stop trying to defend yourself.

I think I'm misunderstood here. I was talking about giving feedback instead of just saying a map is bad because feedback is more productive. And that is exactly what Ivory made this thread for, so I'm hardly derailing it.

[Linnie]

The only map that I could to be changed is bright. Mostly for the navigating the pitch darkness when the wattons are shot. Personally I would like to see an easier way to navigate in the dark. And maybe have it so the pits are easy to fall in when it's dark.

I've been recommending this for a long while but nobody ever seems to tell me what they think of the idea: Take the stairs from Brightman's Remixed map. They glow in the dark when the lights are shot out so you can still navigate the map when it's dark, still more difficult than when the lights are on (as should be) but not just stumbling around without any clue of your position.

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[Knux]

You know what else is annoying about the lights going out? When the automap goes poof during the blackout.

[Ceridran]

The only map that I could to be changed is bright. Mostly for the navigating the pitch darkness when the wattons are shot. Personally I would like to see an easier way to navigate in the dark. And maybe have it so the pits are easy to fall in when it's dark.

I've been recommending this for a long while but nobody ever seems to tell me what they think of the idea: Take the stairs from Brightman's Remixed map. They glow in the dark when the lights are shot out so you can still navigate the map when it's dark, still more difficult than when the lights are on (as should be) but not just stumbling around without any clue of your position.

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Base it off MM4BRIX, but rework the size to make it smaller, while also keeping it fun.

The existing model of MM4BRI is pretty bad, and not because of when the lights are turned on and off.

[MusashiAA]

Knux:

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the topic is to give proper feedback on vanilla maps so that they can be considered for revamping, not to give proper feedback on any maps. In your case, the discussion was preferences between your Waveman map and other two's, so there's a bit of a self-defense too. I don't like doing this shit, this is backseat modding I'm doing over here. Please.

On MM4BRI: that map's navigation is terrible. The flow is very jump-dependant, a feature that is incredibly irk on DooM. DooM jumping is made for long jumps, not high jumps. I think there's also not enough room for people to gain enough speed on each slab. Normal people don't perceive hopping as an essential mean of navigation. The middle area is the only area that allows people to calm down, except when its dark.

The entire "lights off" mechanic is fine. It's the map layout that makes it so dreadful. If navigation is already a problem while lights are on, imagine the nightmare while they're off. The terror of navigating around MM4BRI while lights are off is so huge, people actually conceive to stop fighting and wait out the blackout in middle, hidden somewhere while others try to fight their way up stairs they can't see. This turns middle as a "neutral" zone during blackouts, where people avoid fighting until the lights come back.

I would suggest adding Thunder Claw into the map's weapon layout, and Thunder Claw pegs above the staircases so that people can just "Bionic Commando" their way up. Not only that, but TClaw pegs would also need to NOT disappear during the blackout. If not, I would suggest applying a MM2MET staircase modification to MM4BRI staircases, except that the flat slopes would be on the sides of the staircases, and the slope position would be mirrored for the other side of the map.

EDIT: Now that we're talking "Bionic Commando": have you guys ever considered making Wire Item a Thunder Claw that causes little damage but functons like a proper hookshot? Instead of shooting straight up and from your body, why not make Wire Item shoot the projectile anywhere you aim at (thus, as if you shot the wire from your buster), and then propel you up and forward? Something similar to Copy Robot's (was it his?) oldest Thunder Claw version, but also propelling you upwards if that's where you aimed the wire.

[Ivory]

EDIT: Now that we're talking "Bionic Commando": have you guys ever considered making Wire Item a Thunder Claw that causes little damage but functons like a proper hookshot? Instead of shooting straight up and from your body, why not make Wire Item shoot the projectile anywhere you aim at (thus, as if you shot the wire from your buster), and then propel you up and forward? Something similar to Copy Robot's (was it his?) oldest Thunder Claw version, but also propelling you upwards if that's where you aimed the wire.

Wire used to function like that(sans the damage), but it got changed to its current form because it made it way way way easier to wire away while keeping your aim on someone.