Stardust's Workshop

[Legtendga]

If you can't dodge it, don't provoke it. Za Warudo isn't the kind of rage you can deal with alone.

You do realize that it is inevitable on larger servers that the Hale will rage. And if you have no power weapons with Spead or Rage, geuss what?
I favor MrL's suggestion of letting people know that it's about to happen in a much clearer way. Or just changing the Goddang rage. But any change is welcome.

I've had a few times where I put a group of knives in front of every player and thought they'd work, then they somehow survive and only one or two of them die. Za Warudo isn't as great as it seems. Also, there have been times where I've easily escaped its clutches, too.

I've only see something like this happen once, these are flukes; complete outlires. By design, it is every bit as good as we are are saying.
In addition, Do you know how much easier it is to miss/get no one with rocket punch?


Justin, I don't think that StarDust is removing Mudkip, as she was talking about the changes she's made to it earlier in the thread.

[Stardust]

You're not alone usually when the rage is being fed, so you're not the only target, thus not the only one to suffer from the rage. Taking MrL's proposition, the average damage by hit is 18 damage. Za Warudo is a LV2 charge, so consider 250 hits. We don't know if doubleammo is on, so let's consider 250+125/2 = 187 hits. 187*18 = 3366 damage... wow that's still a lot of health needed to feed Za Warudo. I'm not going to deny it's extremely hard to avoid it alone, but when you notice how much feeding the hale needs, it's fair enough.
And to be honest, I find very hard to not kill 1/3 of the server with Rocket Punch without any problems. You just aim approximately to the ground of the area filled with players, and boom, comboz.
I'm sorry but I can't really do something about "the situation where you face Dio with a rage with no Exit Unit". Freezing time is deadly and unforgivable in 1vs1, but in a large deathmatch, it doesn't shine as much. A good ol' field cleaning with RPunch is way more appreciated. Some attacks work better in some situations than others.

Mudkip is kept, however I'm doing my best to make him more fair and more enjoyable. Excluding his rage, he's similar to a weaker Cave Johnson. With the rage, the party can begins, but since v1a Treecko and Torchic got nerfed, and they will be even more in v2.

[Legtendga]

For all the compairisons to rocket punch, there have been no compairisons between Dio and Gilga. Dio can whipe a crowded server no problem without any rage at all, thus allowing him save his rage for 1v1 (mind he can kill someone with exit unit). Gilga can only get alot of kills on crowds, thus his rage is generally used rather quickly after getting it; not to mention his short range and lack of speed, particularly compaired to Dio.
Many weapons (Namely rippers) do less than 18 damage per hit, to boot. Thus, he'll very often get his rage alot faster than 3366. Heck, even at an average of 10 damage it's a rage every 1870 damage recived.
Why do you argue so persistently for this rage?

[Stardust]

Why do you argue so persistently for this rage?

Because you wanted to talk about it.
Dio is slow too, has way lower health, his mainfire doesn't always OHKO and has a bigger cooldown.
The amount of kills with Rpunch is usually bigger than Za Warudo's, but the chance of killing the last survivor with Rocket Punch is way lower than Warudo's. If I compare these attacks it's because they're the only ones being doublecosting rages. Za Warudo was decided instead of the giant Steamroller, so Flash Man can get a part of the hale's design, without Dio Brando taking every attack for him. Both Time Stopper and Za Warudo stop time, whereas the steamroller has nothing to do with Flash Man.

[MrL1193]

Even setting aside balance issues, I still think Roll's rage is a waste of creativity. You could achieve the same effect with armor that reduces damage by a fixed quantity and use something much more interesting as the actual rage.

I don't buy your theory that Rocket Punch scores more frags than Za Warudo on average. It's easy enough to get 1 or 2 frags, sure, but the survivors don't bunch up to the extent that you'll get 3 or 4 as often as you seem to think they do. (And if they're smart, they won't bunch up at all.) Meanwhile, Za Warudo is easily capable of scoring 2 or more frags, with almost no risk of failure. (And like Legtendga said, Dio has a better main attack than Gilgamesh to boot.)

Also, since you mentioned that Dio is supposed to slow down during the rage but I haven't observed that to be the case, I took a look at your code. You yourself admit in the code that it doesn't work as intended, so I don't know why you're trying to convince us that Dio is slowed down while time is stopped. (If you want to fix that, the script that's already used for Starman's and Seeman's rages should work.)

You're not alone usually when the rage is being fed, so you're not the only target, thus not the only one to suffer
from the rage. Taking MrL's proposition, the average damage by hit is 18 damage. Za Warudo is a LV2 charge, so consider 250 hits. We don't know if doubleammo is on, so let's consider 250+125/2 = 187 hits. 187*18 = 3366 damage... wow that's still a lot of health needed to feed Za Warudo. I'm not going to deny it's extremely hard to avoid it alone, but when you notice how much feeding the hale needs, it's fair enough.

If it really took 3366 damage to fuel the rage, we wouldn't see it nearly as often as we actually do. As far as I'm aware, Doubleammo is always on in MM8BDM, so it's actually 125 hits. Also, keep in mind that the 18 damage per hit was meant as a best-case scenario; in reality, it usually doesn't turn out nearly that well (especially when some players forget to limit themselves to high damage-per-hit weapons).

Really, though, even if you made it so that Za Warudo took 5000 health to fuel and always fragged only 1 opponent, I still would consider it bad design. Why? Because I firmly believe that the survivors should always have at least some chance to fight for their lives--and Za Warudo doesn't allow for that. 3 seconds of standing still with no audio tell isn't even close to a fair warning. So in reality, it just ends up being a free killing spree for Dio, and if you happen to survive it, it's only because you were lucky (by either being too far away to hit or just not being targeted by Dio), not because you maneuvered in some way to make it impossible for him to hit you.

[OtakuAlex]

Dio can whipe a crowded server no problem without any rage at all, thus allowing him save his rage for 1v1 (mind he can kill someone with exit unit).

Lies. His main fire is the hardest thing ever to aim with.

[Zard1084]

Lies. His main fire is the hardest thing ever to aim with.

I can back that up! trust me its not easy to get a pin point hit with the main fire.

[Legtendga]

I disagree entirely, and I am no lier. It's not that difficult once you get the hang of it, which you can within one life (I mean, you may not win that round, but you could the next time).
That's not the point, though. We were talking about his rage.

[Stardust]

PORoll is planned to be turned off, but I'm not going to modifiy her because I want her to keep being the healing hale of Silversin's version. The most traditionnal, the better. On my SH mod's philosophy, at least

with almost no risk of failure.

Are you really sure. I've seen some players using it and not even fragging anyone because they didn't take the time to adjust the knives correctly.
Also, Dio is slowed down. The comment on v1g is outdated. Don't get me wrong when it's about my own code pls

CHECK DioFlashBossWeapon.txt ==> l.137
CHECK Global.acs ==> l.939

Doubleammo isn't always on, when I play on some classes I even wonder if they're designed to recover ammo with doubleammo or not.
Then, I'd like to use this piece of evidence

Assuming an average of 18 damage per hit

Also, keep in mind that the 18 damage per hit was meant as a best-case scenario;

Nah, it reads average, not the best-case scenario, you said it yourself. I used your info to defend my purpose, if then you don't agree with it anymore I can't adapt my ideas to yours

Saying again what I said sooner :

The amount of kills with Rpunch is usually bigger than Za Warudo's, but the chance of killing the last survivor with Rocket Punch is way lower than Warudo's

Rocket Punch has globally more potential to do a massive killing. Za Warudo has more potential to do an individual, accurate fragging.
To come back to a smaller scale, use Flash Man's ALT in the middle of a DM crowd ; everyone gets frozen, and then... you just choose someone to release your spread on, and there's nothing he can do to avoid it. A single hyper bomb could have done way, way, way more havoc than this Time Bender + Flash Buster. That's what I want to point out, show where Za Warudo gets its flaws.
If you really find this is a bad design, then you would consider homing attacks, all the AoE, maybe even Atomic Fire lv3 a bad design because you just need to run away until the shoot is ready, and then come back, shoot it, and charge away, again. It focuses on a particular point, whereas RocketP is a all around, fast, globally good-to-have attack.

So in reality, it just ends up being a free killing spree for Dio, and if you happen to survive it, it's only because you were lucky (by either being too far away to hit or just not being targeted by Dio), not because you maneuvered in some way to make it impossible for him to hit you.

An attack based on luck ; are you really sure. Don't you think the hale needs like, a minimal amount of brain to use it correctly, or is the result really random?

Also fun fact but it's actually possible to avoid the knives smartly if you know that... the knives aren't aimable.

[Legtendga]

but it's actually possible to avoid the knives smartly if you know that... the knives aren't aimable.

You can place knives inside people. That's what the Hale will always do. They are not avoidable. If time unfroze BEFORE the knives started moving, then it would be a different story, but this is not the case.

If you really find this is a bad design, then you would consider homing attacks, all the AoE, maybe even Atomic Fire lv3 a bad design because you just need to run away until the shoot is ready, and then come back, shoot it, and charge away, again.

If you gave a Hale a homing attack, then heck yes that would be bad design. StarMan's AOE only works because there is a fairly distinct audio cue when it activates and he then slows down before it starts.

An attack based on luck ; are you really sure. Don't you think the hale needs like, a minimal amount of brain to use it correctly, or is the result really random?

It is luck as to weater or not you yourself survive. The result is only as random as the choises of the Hale.

[Stardust]

In fact there is a brief delay between the time unfreezing and the knives being thrown...

(click to show/hide)

actor ZaWarudoKnive2 : ZaWarudoKnive
{
States
{
Spawn:
DIOF W 6
DIOF W 0 A_JumpIfInTargetInventory("ThrowKnivesToken", 1, "ContinueKniving")
goto KillingTime
ContinueKniving:
DIOF W 0 A_SpawnItemEx("ZaWarudoKnive2", 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0)
stop

They're originally supposed to be lunaticly hard to avoid in the "solo without exit unit" case, but if you're a good player, want to do it the hardcore way and your body is ready, run far, far away + try hiding in a discrete corner + do some rush coil / item1 jungle stuff and you might survive. It's not supposed to be something easy to survive at all, because duel-oriented rage & it costs 2 times more.
But hey, it's not like there's not a red, big flashing message to the top of the screen informating when the hale has max rage..isn't it
When I fight Starman I don't wait for the cue to flee, I keep my distance as soon as the hale has max rage.

[MrL1193]

(click to show/hide)

with almost no risk of failure.

Are you really sure. I've seen some players using it and not even fragging anyone because they didn't take the time to adjust the knives correctly.

It's not a mistake I usually make, because I know that throwing the knives from too close results in them going right through without causing damage. And once a new player gets a little bit of experience using the rage, they'll know that too. Like Legtendga said, these failures are outliers, not a fair representation of what usually happens.

Also, Dio is slowed down. The comment on v1g is outdated. Don't get me wrong when it's about my own code pls

CHECK DioFlashBossWeapon.txt ==> l.137
CHECK Global.acs ==> l.939

Okay, I stand corrected. He does slow down; it's just by an amount that's too small to make the difference you may have expected. (0.79x0.8? Around Bomb Man speed? Even at that, he can cover much more ground in 9 seconds than a survivor can in 2 or 3 seconds--again, if they notice what he's doing.)

Doubleammo isn't always on, when I play on some classes I even wonder if they're designed to recover ammo with doubleammo or not.

I've never seen a server where it wasn't in effect. Ever. And I think people would notice if things such as the boss's Super Jump were charging at half the normal rate.

Then, I'd like to use this piece of evidence

Assuming an average of 18 damage per hit

Also, keep in mind that the 18 damage per hit was meant as a best-case scenario;

Nah, it reads average, not the best-case scenario, you said it yourself. I used your info to defend my purpose, if then you don't agree with it anymore I can't adapt my ideas to yours

You took that out of context and applied the wrong meaning of the word "average." I said "average" meaning "the middle number that could replace all the actual numbers entered, higher or lower, and still give the same total when added up." Another mathematical term for this would be the "mean." In this context, it does not mean "average (mathematical mean) damage in an average (typical) round in an average (typical) server," but rather, "average (mathematical mean) damage per hit when the survivors are making a good effort to use strong weapons."

The relevant line of context, from the same post as the first quote:

Now, mind you, this is all assuming that the survivors are being fairly prudent in choosing their weapons.

Saying again what I said sooner :

The amount of kills with Rpunch is usually bigger than Za Warudo's, but the chance of killing the last survivor with Rocket Punch is way lower than Warudo's

Rocket Punch has globally more potential to do a massive killing. Za Warudo has more potential to do an individual, accurate fragging. To come back to a smaller scale, use Flash Man's ALT in the middle of a DM crowd ; everyone gets frozen, and then... you just choose someone to release your spread on, and there's nothing he can do to avoid it. A single hyper bomb could have done way, way, way more havoc than this Time Bender + Flash Buster. That's what I want to point out, show where Za Warudo gets its flaws.

I absolutely disagree with that. Za Warudo is just as capable of mass destruction, if not more so. Again, Rocket Punch can only score multiple frags if the survivors are bunched up right around where the punch is fired. Za Warudo can score multiple frags if there are multiple survivors anywhere in the general area around Dio. It's much more potent than even Morshu's giant bomb, or Gilgamesh's old rage, Bitter End.

If you really find this is a bad design, then you would consider homing attacks, all the AoE, maybe even Atomic Fire lv3 a bad design because you just need to run away until the shoot is ready, and then come back, shoot it, and charge away, again. It focuses on a particular point, whereas RocketP is a all around, fast, globally good-to-have attack.

I don't really see the correlation, but as a matter of fact, most people do consider those to be obnoxious attacks in LMS. Dive Man, Magnet Man, Elec Man, Gravity Man...All these classes are generally hated in LMS for just those types of attacks. And personally, I do hate the charged Atomic Fire because all it takes is one lucky shot to defeat your opponent, even one who would have easily beaten you overall in a duel with non-OHKO weapons--but that last one is just me, I guess. Regardless, I really hope you're not considering giving bosses these kinds of attacks.

So in reality, it just ends up being a free killing spree for Dio, and if you happen to survive it, it's only because you were lucky (by either being too far away to hit or just not being targeted by Dio), not because you maneuvered in some way to make it impossible for him to hit you.

An attack based on luck ; are you really sure. Don't you think the hale needs like, a minimal amount of brain to use it correctly, or is the result really random?

You've missed the point. You're focusing on the actions of the boss player in this scenario, but (though I don't like how easy it is for the boss player either) my biggest gripe was that the survivors can't do anything to affect their chances of survival. They're completely at the boss's mercy and can't even really do anything to avoid ending up in that situation--and that is what I consider bad design.

Also fun fact but it's actually possible to avoid the knives smartly if you know that... the knives aren't aimable.

Yes, I know you can use Rush Coil. But Dio can take a shot at you anyway by using Time Switch. Or, if you didn't get high enough, he could just make use of his higher-than-normal jump and aim up. (The spread of knives moves horizontally when unfrozen, but their brief movement before being frozen, when you first throw them, seems to be in the direction you aim. I was able to kill a bot standing on a block in Cut Man's stage by throwing knives down from one of the corner platforms.) Or he could just use nearby platforms to get high enough to aim at you. Or he could just throw the knives from farther back so that you fall in front of them after being unfrozen.

In fact there is a brief delay between the time unfreezing and the knives being thrown...

(click to show/hide)

actor ZaWarudoKnive2 : ZaWarudoKnive
{
States
{
Spawn:
DIOF W 6
DIOF W 0 A_JumpIfInTargetInventory("ThrowKnivesToken", 1, "ContinueKniving")
goto KillingTime
ContinueKniving:
DIOF W 0 A_SpawnItemEx("ZaWarudoKnive2", 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0)
stop

They're originally supposed to be lunaticly hard to avoid in the "solo without exit unit" case, but if you're a good player, want to do it the hardcore way and your body is ready, run far, far away + try hiding in a discrete corner + do some rush coil / item1 jungle stuff and you might survive. It's not supposed to be something easy to survive at all, because duel-oriented rage & it costs 2 times more.

Well, I'd say you went a bit overboard, then, because it really doesn't feel like it's even possible to intentionally thwart Dio, no matter how clever you are. And again, I know from experience that that tiny window of opportunity is still usually insufficient for you to get away even with the Exit Unit.

But hey, it's not like there's not a red, big flashing message to the top of the screen informating when the hale has max rage..isn't it
When I fight Starman I don't wait for the cue to flee, I keep my distance as soon as the hale has max rage.

The warning just tells you that the boss is ready to rage. It doesn't tell you when the boss actually decides to use it (or, at least, not quickly enough, since the message takes time to fade out). The boss player will just wait until you are close enough before using the rage--and with Dio Flash, "close enough" covers entirely too wide an area.

[Stardust]

Assuming Za Warudo would be unavoidable to dodge, what would you suggest to modify it? I don't plan on re-creating the whole rage (like by putting the Steamroller instead), because that wouldn't be fair for Flash Man, it's not related to him, but I can tweak some stuff on it.

[Legtendga]

Well, to reinvigorate discussion, you could slow the players rather than stopping them. Or have the knives do little damage then summon the roller at the end of Za Warudo. Just for starters.

[Stardust]

Eh, no, the steamroller and za warudo are just not the same attack at all ; ZW is Dio's iconic move, the steamroller is distinct from it. Putting these two together would just look like mixing every single thing about Dio in the same bag, assuming it'll be good
Slowing down the players could allow dodging... too much. Knives are immobile ; to dodge them, if you're able to move (even by being extremely slow), you just need to move out of the trajectory they'll follow, and... you're safe. Even by being the last survivor it would be quite easy, you just don't need to stay in their trajectory. Imagine this with an average server of like ~6,7 players. Mass killing would be impossible .__.
What I can advise is to have a lower countdown of freezing, really... :/
Take Flash Man, the way to counter his freezing is to not get in range, a.k.a keeping your distance. I aimed for something like this : keeping away from the hale could save you. With a freezing time lowering, or a delay-before-freezing increasing, I'm pretty sure it could turn out to be somethin' fair

Oh yea and it's been months since no update was posted, right? Have this as a promoting loyalty.

(click to show/hide)