Stardust's Workshop

[Tfp BreakDown]

So I heard there were some crashes due to this mod, any reason on why this has been occurring?
Edit: some slight suggestions based on some playthroughs, (1) Rework SMM's "Resurrection" gimmick and (2) for the love of primus scrap the darkness effect on Tomahawk Talbein Why is that even there? He's not a creepy/horror themed character, If he was Yurei or Scp-173 than it would be understandable but he's not He's a native themed robot dressed with the pelt of a kung fu werewolf. So please scrap the darkness effect

[MrL1193]

So, I did get to play this new version for a while today before it broke everyone's internet connections. It looks promising for the most part; the classes fill their unique roles fairly well, and I like the new boss ideas for the most part. (Turning Ra Thor into a duo seems a bit strange, but I haven't actually seen him yet, so I'll reserve judgment.)

That said, there are a couple things I noticed in the short time I got to play:

It's difficult for Supporters and Healers to tell exactly who needs their help the most in the heat of battle. Yes, people can scream "Medic!" if they need health, but let's face it: plenty of people are going to spam that call even when they don't really need healing just to be obnoxious, so it's not as reliable an indicator for the medic as it should be. And, of course, there's no way whatsoever for a Supporter to tell how many W Tanks or weapons his teammate has; giving stuff to the wrong teammate isn't as much of a waste for him as it is for the Healer, but it's still annoying that there's no way to make the judgment call for yourself.

Super Macho Man getting up to 5 lives seems excessive. Even assuming that his overall offensive power is lowered to compensate, it just causes the match to drag on and on and on (especially since you have to wait through the count every time he gets knocked down). I can understand that cutting down on the number of lives too much would make it difficult to balance the button-mashing recovery mechanic, but as he is now, I just feel that he slows the pace of the game too much.

Suggestions for Super Macho Man:

-Make Super Macho Man recover less health each time he gets up from a knockdown, just like in the actual games.
-Add a round mechanic (basically a timer) to strike a balance between making the button-mashing recovery a meaningful challenge and still allowing the survivors to defeat him early if they're aggressive enough. Super Macho Man would still be able to get up from as many as 4 or 5 knockdowns, but if he gets knocked down 3 times in a single round, he's automatically TKO'ed, with no chance to recover. You can decide whether or not you'd want to limit the number of rounds and force a winner to be chosen by decision if both sides are still standing at the end.



On an side note, I decided to actually read through the first post to see what information could be gleaned from it. About those Credits...

If I missed someone, please tell me so I add your name !

I know people may generally know me as "that guy who made Rebalanced Class Saxton Hale," but that's not actually a name. But then, it's only a minor contribution anyway, I guess...

[Stardust]

Yes, I'd like to thanks a lot Tails and Celebi who yesterday found where the issues came from. Both Morshu and Thor ++ were causing infinite loop = packets overload. After this, I don't know about everyone, but wasn't there a kind of network global lag? There seemed to be a massive packet receiving increasement... actually, the crash occured because infinite loop. A.k.a, a certain action in the code which lasts 0 seconds looped itself. Then, for some reasons, the internets would be still affected by this infinite loop thing. I couldn't log in to BE, hopefully the magnificent Blews popped into my skype and told Jenova about the issue ; Jenova turned off the server and everyone's internet should be functionnal now.

Either way, I'd like to apologize for these crashes that happened. The issues came from something I wouldn't have expected to crash. We revised the 2 bosses who caused crashing, and we can assure neither Morshu or Thor could blast the server anymore.

@TLP
Concerning Tomahawk Talbain.. the darkness gimmick is considered into the balance. That's why the hale has a delay before using his attack. Without the darkness, the delay could be easily anticipated and the boss would become UP. Also he has a lower health than most melee hales because of this light advantage. Jon Talbain himself is a werewolf and thus the night it's his domain.
I could lighten it a bit, but not removing it, sorry.

@MRL
For the support class, notice that they can lay weapons on their way even if nobody's around, because the weapons don't disappear. If you throw it in the middle of the way, they couldn't miss it. This means he can creates weapons as soon as the bar is full and it'll eventually be collected ; there's no ammo loss in the charge.
The support's weapon providing also isn't mandatory ; of course having a new weapon always helps, but not having it doesn't mean you can't fight : As for the W-Tanks, they weren't present in Silversin's version, they're an additional that is useful on *some* occasions. If you want my opinion a weapon is better than a W Tank, but on some occasions a tank might be better. You could just communicate with the other players via chat and nicely ask a W Tank from your personnal Supporter :<

The healer however, is more important, as being low on health is more tense and dangerous. What I can advise to control healer correctly, is that, if someone is coming toward your face and spam "medic", then it probably means he's wounded. Also, a pro tip to be a good healer if you ask me, is to tap very briefly the altfire button on some allies to check if they're fine. A single sparkle is enough to know if someone needs healing (it turns red and plays a laser buster sound if it is hurt, and keep the green sparkles/mirror buster sound if it's fully healthy.)

Macho is weaker than most melee hales as he needs to charge a bit to be as much effective as the TF2 melee hales ; but a noticeable weakness is that he's left open after each of his attacks. After his rage especially, where he can't move for two or three seconds.
The amount of health he recovers IS lowered at each recovering
Macho has 5 lives indeed, and I wanted to make him so an average player is able to recover 2 times (==> 3 lives in total), but since I noticed some players even managed to recover for a 4th time, then I'll increase the difficulty. This isn't FPS skills MrL, some players are maybe better at button smashing than others, I dunno c:
Actually you know, it was planned to give him a 6th "secret" live if he deserved it (if the hale is really trying to fight hard, he was planned to recover with like 20% health, faster speed and stronger movements.... but yeah, a very low health.)
Anyway I applied your suggestion, but though notice that even with that much health, Macho Man didn't always survived, as we saw on the servers (though he's good at timelimit abuse fights I admit). I reduced his health recovering even more (now the 5 lives are respectively 100%, 80%, 70%, 60%, 50%), and made the recovering for all lives a bit harder.

http://static.best-ever.org/wads/saxton ... h++v2b.pk3

At the occasion of this hotfixhotfix also known as v2b, I removed Plant Barrier since Auto could become a healer by providing W-Tanks to fill the pink weapon. Also MTanks were removed because it seemed to be an excessively powerful item (especially since now, pretty much none of the bosses can OHKO.)
Starman's main became easier to control, too. The meteor would take years to fall  

I saw this update pleased SmashBros and Rozark, I'm so ha-ppeee

[Tfp BreakDown]

@TLP
Concerning Tomahawk Talbain.. the darkness gimmick is considered into the balance. That's why the hale has a delay before using his attack. Without the darkness, the delay could be easily anticipated and the boss would become UP. Also he has a lower health than most melee hales because of this light advantage. Jon Talbain himself is a werewolf and thus the night it's his domain.
I could lighten it a bit, but not removing it, sorry.

First of all, It's TFP, Second, I highly doubt that making pitch black to point of no vision is anything but balance, also seeing how he has a delay is enough to qualify for balance, and if you're worried about him being UP why not make his attacks harder to aniticipate but easy to use/recognize. Third: By that logic you say anything that has a night themed domain has to have darkness in effect, so if I make a vampire themed boss, it has to have darkness in effect or a zombie horde event that has to have nocturnal effects, I mean again if it was yurei or Scp-173 that had been in place of talbein than it would be understandable seeing how in their respective appearances you encounter them a dark setting but talbein in his appearences while they do take place at night is completely different, there you still see the guy and no crippling darkness, in short night =/= darkness, This boss could be a lot better to fight against but this darkness cripples fighting him. I have nothing on his style yet but I hope to primus rhe attack style is decent.

[Hallan Parva]

I saw this update pleased SmashBros and Rozark, I'm so ha-ppeee

cool, where's my Zantetsuken


EDIT: It seems kind of silly that Eddie (and more importantly, Auto) can drop the Proto Buster, Bass Buster, and Duo Fist upgrade items, considering that part of the point behind Sweeper, Speedster, and Tank is to start with their buster upgrade (albeit nerfed). Laser Buster, Arrow Buster, and Super Adaptor might still be fair game, but you might want to think about it.

Also, Duo's health bar is the most legendary thing I have ever seen.

[Thunderono]

I was expecting something a lot worse, but this is actually really good!

That said, Healer's ammo regeneration seems a little low for its consumption.  With the lack of copywep capabilities, this makes Healer sort of useless after healing one or two targets.  I'd suggest upping the regeneration or lowering the consumption?

Other than that, this is a lot of fun!

[Dr. Freeman]

A hale mod that's actually sorta fun to play. I'm impressed.

A couple weird things first. A few of the hales seem a tad underpowered. Not a lot but just enough that it can be skewed in the player's favor. Also sometimes Quote spawned alone which messed everything up, but I think you were around for that.
(also tomohawk darkness is annoying)

Other than that it was pretty fun.
Though I vote for Super Macho Man being the only hale cause that was the best.

[Gummywormz]

I realize this post will probably go nowhere (especially since it's a wall of text) but I'm posting it anyway because I have one major problem with this mode that basically encompasses every single issue I have with this:

I honestly don't understand the appeal at all. Everyone was simply gushing on how awesome this is...somehow. Yes, opinions exist, but I feel a lot of the issues are quite obvious and turn away from any fun whatsoever.

The first major issue is one that has been plaguing Saxton Hale since the beginning: matches take almost 7 minutes to end most of the time. And honestly, it's much worse here than any other version. Part one of the issue is you took Hyper Hale's gimmick of having melee bosses not being able to OHKO people. The attacks have really bad hit boxes most of the time. I was playing Remilia and just couldn't for the life of me hit anyone that was moving. I also personally feel not having OHKO melee takes away from the purpose of Saxton Hale. You are not exactly overpowered, just annoying to fight.

The second part of the match length issue are the classes. Putting aside the fact they are SilverSin classes rip offs with horribly long ammo regeneration, healer and support are very ..erm... double sided. Especially with a larger server, they completely make the Hale's job harder than it needs to be to do. Healer, while having an insane ammo regen rate, can still easily heal people back to full, completely wasting your work. Support can cook up random weapons pretty quickly. This makes it really hard for players to run out of ammo, a tactic I (tried to) abuse back in other versions of Hale. And now back to that whole "double-sided" thing: once they are the last ones left, they're useless. If they don't simply give up, it takes forever to kill the Hales. "But they get runes!!!" you scream at the monitor. Honestly, does it really help that they do 10 damage instead of 5? And on to the runes...

Yes, runes. They are a key feature of Hale and Rage Roboenza, the mode which all Hale versions derive from. At first all that was available was rage and strength or spread. Here, however, almost all of the runes are available, including the defensive ones. This also heavily contributes to the "matches run too long" issue. Who honestly wants to fight a guy who easily gains health from you due to the fact you get an insane amount of HP? Or a guy who can simply wait in a corner and regen all of his health back? This issue is enhanced dramatically if you go back to the "bosses cant ohko you anymore" thing.

Let's drift from the gameplay for a bit and go to the aesthetics. Yes, some of the hales have fancy intros now, but I'll get to that later. I'm more concerned with the HUDs and music / sound assets. Firstly, as many people have noticed, a lot of the HUDs simply rotate around. The ones that don't are bog standard Mega Man ones. And as a side question: does the Tank class really need a 10 foot health bar? Yes, it is to demonstrate he has more HP, but it's distracting and blocks off more of my screen than it needs to. And then you just have terribly done images like the Hot Head on Tomahawk Hale's HUD. I also remember ColdFusion yelling at you for using Touhou classes HUDs but never mind that for now.

Sounds. I'll be blunt and say a lot of the new ones sound like they were recorded from a built in microphone being placed next to a PSP or wherever the sound is from. I'll also be blunt and say the new music is terrible too. A lot of themes don't loop anymore, (except the round win theme because it's cool to hear a 5 second jingle on loop for 25 seconds). Some of the themes were altered to include seemingly random looped parts to extend the song. Then there are things like Seaman and Seelder's new theme...

And now on to the bosses. I'll be blunt again: it seems most of the new bosses seem to only have been made to show off mad ACS skillz. One major issue is that you removed the instructions. You can appearently read them by pressing altfire when the sun and moon are in perfect alignment, but is anyone really going to remember that? It's like the old NES games that tell you nothing. You need instructions to read the instructions. Also, I thought everyone was keen on removing all the non-Mega Man bosses. They honestly have no real place in this mode anymore other than being there because they were here before. Let's get into a few specific bosses:

Macho Man: Oh look, a fancy dynamic camera that clips into things 99% of the time. The first thing I noticed was the skin. Yes, he obviously doesn't have one yet, but did you have to make him giant and have an ugly color scheme? The real issue has been mentioned plenty of times: he has 5 lives. "BUT YOU HAVE TO WORK TO GET THEM!!1!11". Not really since binds exist and also it's easy to button mash. The real kicker is that he gets up to near full HP every single time he revives. I thought Ninja Spy was hated for this gimmick, but it's suddenly ok because you can add a fancy little intro and ending to the boss? Also, he is far too weak for his own good. He does piss poor damage, has to charge and aim his attacks, and causes invincibility frames on the players.

As a side note about bad skins: Morshu also suffers from this too. Wasn't a Morshu skin being made already or something? Also, Hyper Storm H is too big for his own good. Yes, he's supposed to be big, but he just clips through everything and it's hard to take him seriously. Not even Frost Man is this big.

Guts Man G: As I said in the server: this is the perfect representation of duel mode as a Hale. You have to wait forever to actually play the mode you want to play, and then when you do wait, everyone dies immediately. I thought this gimmick would be hated because it's the exact same as Slender Man's gimmick except reversed. This also gives the survivors far too much of an advantage for their own good. It's just not fun at all to play as this hale.

And finally: Tomahawk Talibain man thing: The darkness. Oh my god the darkness. "I don't need to see that the boss is right next to me at all no sir". But it's ok, it's part of the gimmick and it also goes light every 50 years. Again, I thought this kind of thing made Slender Man to be the most despised boss in any Hale version. But now it's ok because it's not slender? Also his rage is another huge issue. It spawns a totem pole that helps him out by giving new abilities...forever. Yes the totem can be destroyed but are you really going to be focusing on the thing (if you can see it) when there's a wolf dashing at you? This also distracts damage away from the hale, making the matches even longer than they need to be.

And then you have the Ra Thor Duo. This was apparently done for no other purpose other than to show off that two mods merged. Lovely.

And as another side note: what's with Scrooge's Mecha Ducks? They just seem to sit floating in a corner with no rotations and sometimes go after survivors.

The real icing on this cake are the "secret bosses". "BUT THEY CAN BE DISABLED BY THE SERVER!11!11" Well the server I was on (and everyone else was on) had it enabled so I'm complaining about them anyway.

First you have NeoDS. Everyone hated NeoDS. Everyone raged at NeoDS. Now he's back because...we needed to fill a slot?

The exact same thing for Pissed Off Roll. It didn't even matter how altered she was previously, everyone still hated her and wanted her gone.

Then you have things like fighting Gamma's legs. At this point I just quit the server. I could not force myself to play this mod any longer.

In conclusion, a lot of the development time looks like it was spent on making fancy ACS tricks rather than having playable bosses. I suppose I'll be forcing myself to play this anyway as this will be guaranteed to be the "mode of the month" and no one will play anything else anyway...

[Ceridran]

The darkness. Oh my god the darkness. "I don't need to see that the boss is right next to me at all no sir". But it's ok, it's part of the gimmick and it also goes light every 50 years. Again, I thought this kind of thing made Slender Man to be the most despised boss in any Hale version. But now it's ok because it's not slender?

I'l admit to the bolded because I hate most things from this mod that don't seem like they should be here, and the Slenderman is one of them. I think I've made it clear how much I despise Ninja Spy and Christian Brutal Sniper, and I can't possibly argue enough to somehow magically get them to be gone.

Talbain really does the darkness thing better than the Slenderman. The Slenderman just fades in and out in darkness that is hardly a hindrance to his foes, while Talbain's darkness is actually the thing that fades in and out.

[Thunderono]

In conclusion, a lot of the development time looks like it was spent on making fancy ACS tricks rather than having playable bosses. I suppose I'll be forcing myself to play this anyway as this will be guaranteed to be the "mode of the month" and no one will play anything else anyway...

well if it bothers you that much you can just go populate PoweredUp or Classes TLMS or something
Nobody's forcing you to play this

oh but wait who would want to work to make an experience they enjoy when they can join a prefabricated experience they don't enjoy

[Ceridran]

Nobody's forcing you to play this

(click to show/hide)

yeah uh no thunder can you just stop

No matter what backs it up, or who says it, this phrase alone gets me in an awful mood.
It's not that he's forced to play it, which he isn't, but it's all there is to play, because it's all that the others are actually going to play.

Even if he does try to repopulate another server, he'l probably only get 1-2 people who leave after so little game time.
If you ever want to suggest waiting precious time to repopulate a server, you should just shut up instantly; waiting to repopulate servers is a waste of precious time and nobody bothers to enter servers with so few people for anything unless it's been recently released.

[chuggaafan1]

but it's distracting and blocks off more of my screen than it needs to

You can adjust/remove the HUD with = and -.

The first major issue is one that has been plaguing Saxton Hale since the beginning: matches take almost 7 minutes to end most of the time

It's been "plaguing" SH because it's always been that long. The original TF2 mod lasted, on average, 6-10 minutes per match. This lasts a similar amount, with the exception of NeoDS, or certain other Hales that are supposed to be shorter or longer.

Support can cook up random weapons pretty quickly.

Support's ammo builds up a bit faster than Healer, but still very slowly. The main issue here is that there's no limit on which weapons, which means it's Chaos Gen v1 ALL over again.

Not really since binds exist and also it's easy to button mash.

I personally have never seen nor heard of anyone seeing more than 3 Knockdowns, but I'm not going to completely deny your statement.

The real kicker is that he gets up to near full HP every single time he revives.

It appears that he loses 500 health each revival, and has really low health for a Hale to begin with. To be fair, it really should scale WITH his health, but it's not THAT bad.

Guts Man G: As I said in the server: this is the perfect representation of duel mode as a Hale. You have to wait forever to actually play the mode you want to play, and then when you do wait, everyone dies immediately. I thought this gimmick would be hated because it's the exact same as Slender Man's gimmick except reversed. This also gives the survivors far too much of an advantage for their own good. It's just not fun at all to play as this hale.

Though this is a fair point, G works better on a larger map. Outlast the (really pretty short) timer and you get supergigadeath claw and it becomes more like traditional hale.

First you have NeoDS. Everyone hated NeoDS. Everyone raged at NeoDS. Now he's back because...we needed to fill a slot?

NeoDS was agreed on being unique but the controls were broken. I'm guessing he had been fixed for this version.

[Rozark]

Nobody's forcing you to play this

(click to show/hide)

yeah uh no thunder can you just stop

No matter what backs it up, or who says it, this phrase alone gets me in an awful mood.
It's not that he's forced to play it, which he isn't, but it's all there is to play, because it's all that the others are actually going to play.

Even if he does try to repopulate another server, he'l probably only get 1-2 people who leave after so little game time.
If you ever want to suggest waiting precious time to repopulate a server, you should just shut up instantly; waiting to repopulate servers is a waste of precious time and nobody bothers to enter servers with so few people for anything unless it's been recently released.

Challenge Accepted.
I'll be back in a week.

[Ceridran]

but it's distracting and blocks off more of my screen than it needs to

You can adjust/remove the HUD with = and -.

You shouldn't have to do this. I like seeing my hud as it is.

[Superjustinbros]

I honestly don't understand the appeal at all.

Seeing so many recognizable characters and the ultimate randomness.
You know that feeling you get when you're drunk/high?
Boss mods as a whole can be very much summed up as a crazy acid trip.
It feels good to the people playing it because of it's craziness.
Oh, and I guess I'll leave this here.

If you want glasses with a bit more of style and don't look as goofy/nerdy, you could use these types of glasses...

...instead of these.