MM8BDM Community Disscussion: Problems and Solutions

[Thunderono]

This bureaucratic semantics debate needs to stop, and soon.

I hate to come back to this topic because of how redundant it is, but seriously?  Is that not the issue at hand?
From what I've gathered, the problem you've presented is the natural variety of opinions and personalities.  These very obviously conflict with each other.
Balrog is not directly attacking you.  Your consistent sideskirting of the true "issue" is rather annoying.  Would you look at that an actual example of attacking you
If you want a true discussion of solutions, why don't you start?

[fortegigasgospel]

I'm not gonna make any big comments but from the sounds of it you intended for absolutely everybody to be there, but I can bet there were a lot of people missing, such as from the look of his post Balrog (who I would place high up on the community member list) and myself. So talking as if you made sure you were insuring the whole of the community was here for the discussion fell short of making sure they were even there, which kind of defeats having an assembly.

[-RanRan]

I'm posting this on SSW's behalf, in accordance with an accord we have.

I think specific actions to improve the way things are now are two-fold with emphasis on the first:
[8:06:31 PM] sick sad world: 1) Consistent with King Yams' earlier point about Shagg/Rose/etc having something accessible where gameplay is shown WITHOUT downloading will go far in promoting MM8BDM to new players (read: youtube people posting MM8BDM videos). I see this as essentially what Mike wanted with the cutstuff blog but as youtube videos. I may do this myself but I'm not an established youtuber
[8:06:46 PM] sick sad world: 2) Encourage people to play competitive modes but not modes where people are in direct competition
[8:06:55 PM] sick sad world: Think of something like classes target blaster challenge lol
[8:07:19 PM] sick sad world: From an engineering perspective making new target challenge maps would be trivial but you add in additional pwads to make things interesting
[8:07:47 PM] sick sad world: One thing we are not doing a good job of as modders (and perhaps in ZDR generally) is making things modularized. That is, each mod kinda stands on its own when the whole point of pwads is to mix and match
[8:08:10 PM] sick sad world: Why not play classes team roboenza swarm roll chaos
[8:08:27 PM] sick sad world: Well it turns out certain lumps like SBARINFO etc cause conflicts
[8:08:54 PM] sick sad world: So to -Ran's point, I'd encourage the discussion to separate out technical details from procedural/social/community issues
[8:11:06 PM] sick sad world: To the complaints about Saxton Hale, this is not a new phenomenon in our community. People complained when roboenza was the main draw. This shows us that there will always be a place in MM8BDM for "dynamic team/random antagonist selection" wads, probably for good reason. They are fun, engaging, a unique experience, and relatively casual.
[8:11:49 PM] sick sad world: Part of our strength as a community is precisely such a polarization effect. You've got the casual casualers and competitive organized duelers. Frankly, I'm impressed we have such diversity
[8:12:40 PM] sick sad world: At some level, we should collect data on what people like about MM8BDM currently, and what they feel could be improved. This will give us the beginnings of an "outcome based" approach to not only improving the community but generally the MM8BDM experience.
[8:13:17 PM] sick sad world: At some level it may be helpful to enumerate what types of features/modes/activities are consistent with that goal.
[8:13:59 PM] sick sad world: For example:
1) Duel with appropriate map sizes to support it
2) Some type of random selection mod (roboenza, saxton, bot apocalypse)
3) Some form of classes
4) ??? etc
[8:14:39 PM] sick sad world: What's important is to define the outcome. I see it as directing a new focus for pwad development parallel with social interaction
So to that point, these days we have more access than ever... best-ever provides a perfect vehicle to showcase underplayed mods and modes
[8:16:03 PM] sick sad world: Perhaps -Ran could feature different mods/modes weekly?
[8:20:17 PM] -Randen [# 6449]:I'm completely fine with that.
[8:20:26 PM] -Randen [# 6449]: Also, I am an established Youtuber, and with a Gaming Oriented Company.
[8:20:33 PM] sick sad world: See so there you go
[8:20:38 PM] sick sad world: You are well positioned to make a difference

To sum up SSW's idea, I should use the IRC Bot system supplied to us by the IRC Chat to feature and set up wads and mods to able to make it easier for people of all kinds and feature the gametype and modes. And then, record footage of the mod in question, edit and then upload it to my BonuStage Youtube account, to promote exposure for 8BDM, and the mods in question.

Going to add this one with the other three.

Opinions?

Also, because people seem intent on driving it into the ground, I'm going to start actively refusing to reply to any message that has nothing to do with the subject at hand, and doesn't even to have anything to remotely do with what this thread is intended for.

[*Alice]

... I was just pointing out that you are panicking over something that isn't all that likely nor bad, Ran.

And I still believe that the game is not what makes people leave.
I think it is the tendency of many people here to antagonize other people based on their opinion.

But hey, if you think that this game is not optimized enough for [game mode here] enough or [game mode here] needs to never be played ever again, feel free to waste your time "fixing" that.

Oh, and a small thing to note: Roboenza was what brought me here back in 2011. Not the normal game itself.

[Shade Guy]

Oh, and a small thing to note: Roboenza was what brought me here back in 2011. Not the normal game itself.

Come to think of it, Roboenza was what attracted me to MM8BDM as well...although I immediately disliked it and started playing vanilla TLMS when that was popular. Mainly because I wasn't used to my consistently high ping and I sucked as a zombie, but my petty reasoning is irrelevant; I came to enjoy the core game immensely.

More importantly, thinking back, I was attracted to MM8BDM by the Shagg/Kit/Rose videos of Roboenza. So, from experience, promoting MM8BDM on Youtube is effective, to some extent. -Ran, if you did post videos of MM8BDM on Youtube as suggested in your conversation with SSW, that would be great. I'm sure it will have some sort of positive influence.

[MusashiAA]

I'm going to start actively refusing to reply to any message that has nothing to do with the subject at hand, and doesn't even to have anything to remotely do with what this thread is intended for.

Thread has already been hijacked, bro. And for better reasons that are actually on-topic: to discuss if such a thing as "a dead community" exists, and if it does, what are the actual causes and what can be done about it.

It's also already been established that you're a self-centered fallacious alarmist (creating a massive skype group chat with "everyone" to expose them your opinion, in the hopes of everyone accepting your argument and shield yourself with argumentum ad populum), and a doomsayer (asserting as fact that the MM8BDM community is dying, regardless of what has been exposed, to the point of blind faith).

And just to make myself not "sound mean", I'll dissect the three pillars of your argument:

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#1. Our community majority player-base is made up of selfish, jaded users, who will resist change of any kind. They refuse to take anything seriously, and seek to discredit anyone and anything that shows direct opposition to what they believe is correct.
That's a huge generalization, specially when being directed to a mod-driven community. Things like MMSP, CSCC, YDClasses and KYClasses, Chaos Generator and many more mods are the proof of a community that seeks to change things around. Unless you mean changes within the approach of the veterans towards new players, which in that case there's been a huge push to mak things as accesible as possible. Go check the tutorial threads made by the same guys you call "selfish" and "jaded": all made for the sake of accesibility of mods for new players. Unless you mean something entirely different which I don't know since you haven't defined "change".

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#2 Our game-modes, and the choices and popularization of said choices of servers hosted with them, have gotten to the point it has made the base-game itself stale and uninteresting.
It's not the servers' fault nor the mods' fault for vanilla becoming stale: time is to blame. As with any game, there comes a point where novelty wears off. It is inevitable.

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#3 The people who know that it's a problem refuse to do anything to change it, because they believe it is inevitable, and those who don't know can't figure out why it is, because every-time we try to discuss it, people destroy the debate and discussion before it can even start.
You're right: we believe it is normal and inevitable for a community to not be crazy active after a long time (despite that it still is alive, making new things, and with ongoing interaction between members), or an old game to not be as active now as it used to be when it was new. This is experience with other communities and games talking here.

If we're going to talk asshole members and asshole players scaring new people away: they are always a shunned minority, so their impact is minimal.



A'ight. Now with that out of the way...let's not take things too far with "banning Saxton Hale". I don't care how shoehorned and badly designed it is: we simply cannot take away other people's fun simply because we think it's so memeticly popular it keeps new people from trying different things. And I think that there just isn't enough people that care about Saxton Hale dominating the servers, and therefore think it is necessary to "ban" it.

If we want people to play something else, we should get together and play it to make it popular: not get together and argue that some other people are playing something we don't like and want to force them to play something we like. Except that we have more refined gameplay tastes than the group that devotes to play Saxton Hale, so we all don't find one single thing to be the best: we all have different tastes, while they all share the same taste.

Balrog (and company): we can't do much other than outlive Saxton Hale Fever, which we will if we keep duel tourneys, mod updates, map packs, official expansions, and forum discussion to keep us together and interested. Balrog: I know that this is personal for you, but there is one thing that I think you're wrong thinking of, and that you've got to trust me with: the next big thing is MMSP, not SH. SH "was" the big thing that killed Roboenza, and its time will come. Unless it doesn't, which really isn't so much of an issue right now. Unless SH outlives MM8BDM's final update, which I would worry then.

[CutmanMike]

I'm having a hard time trying to work out what this argument is about. The fact people won't stop playing a certain game mode or something else?

You can't stop people playing what they want to play. The Skulltag community curse seems to be coming full circle now. I made GVH, it was played all the time because some people found it fun, community decides it needs to be removed from server listings and starts secret clubs on IRC on how to stop GVH and finding CutmanMike's address to put an end to him (I'm serious). How is that fair on the people who just legitimately enjoy the game mode? You can't stop people playing COD or Halo because they enjoy it, and you can't stop people playing doom mods either. I've said this time and time again, if you want people to stop playing a certain game mode, make a better one! Or work together to make better game mode, share some ideas. Don't just make more and more topics about the same damn thing. I do not and will not support suggested nazi methods to stop people playing or talking about things they enjoy playing.

As for "the community dying"... is it? I haven't heard or seen any hard evidence supporting this claim, like at all. The only things I've heard are the development team struggling to make everyone happy with their "we want your opinion on xyz" posts, which I've briefly gone over with Ivory. To me it just sounds like kicking up drama for no good reason (or little personal reason) but I am willing to hear people out if they can show me what they're talking about. Otherwise I'm going to lock this under the assumption nothing is going to come out of it other than adding more fuel to the fire.

[Balrog]

I'm having a hard time trying to work out what this argument is about. The fact people won't stop playing a certain game mode or something else?

I have no idea what Ran's talking about; I think he just wants attention at this point. I, personally, have been talking about the specific problems that people not playing anything other than one game mode presents for MM8BDM.

You can't stop people playing what they want to play. The Skulltag community curse seems to be coming full circle now. I made GVH, it was played all the time because some people found it fun, community decides it needs to be removed from server listings and starts secret clubs on IRC on how to stop GVH and finding CutmanMike's address to put an end to him (I'm serious). How is that fair on the people who just legitimately enjoy the game mode? You can't stop people playing COD or Halo because they enjoy it, and you can't stop people playing doom mods either.

One difference between GvH and Saxton (or MMSP, if Musashi's dartboard of fate isn't on the blink) is that while having everyone playing GvH doesn't cripple your ability to fully enjoy single-player wads like Beyond Reality (or even other multiplayer Doom mods since the Doom community is so large), having everyone playing Saxton does affect your ability to fully enjoy other MM8BDM mods and modes, because bots suck and single-player mods are small and few in number. Another problem I pointed out previously is that, much like Brutal Doom, Saxton has created its own system of players who have never touched anything else. While other popular Doom mods also have this effect to a certain extent, it's much more severe and damaging for MM8BDM because the population gap between the Saxton-only community and "us" is so large. Imagine if 90% of all the people on the Zandronum master server were playing in one Brutal Doom server. Now imagine someone trying to get a game of priv going in an environment like that; I don't think it would be very long before they would ragequit.

Also, MM8BDM has a different community makeup than Doom by virtue of being a fangame of an oft-Googled property. Sonic Robo Blast 2 would be a better frame of reference.

I've said this time and time again, if you want people to stop playing a certain game mode, make a better one! Or work together to make better game mode, share some ideas. Don't just make more and more topics about the same damn thing. I do not and will not support suggested nazi methods to stop people playing or talking about things they enjoy playing.

The problem with trying to make new mods is the aforementioned disassociation effect reducing the chances that they'll catch on significantly; remember when Samsara was featured on Kotaku, and there was a deluge of questions about whether it was compatible with Brutal Doom? That's the same thing.

As for "the community dying"... is it? I haven't heard or seen any hard evidence supporting this claim, like at all. The only things I've heard are the development team struggling to make everyone happy with their "we want your opinion on xyz" posts, which I've briefly gone over with Ivory. To me it just sounds like kicking up drama for no good reason (or little personal reason) but I am willing to hear people out if they can show me what they're talking about. Otherwise I'm going to lock this under the assumption nothing is going to come out of it other than adding more fuel to the fire.

I think the problem is mainly worries about a multiplayer monoculture crippling new player adoption (see above) combined with the various asshattery on Skype stirring the pot. Those are valid concerns, mind, but the way Ran basically attempted to preach to everyone about how he was the One True Savior of MM8BDM poisoned this thread to be a mess from the start.

I can't do it right now, but I'm planning on doing a essay on this since Jenova seemed interested in it. So keep an eye out for that.

[-RanRan]

Oi, I need to stop sleeping before making massive updates.

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... I was just pointing out that you are panicking over something that isn't all that likely nor bad, Ran.

And I still believe that the game is not what makes people leave.
I think it is the tendency of many people here to antagonize other people based on their opinion.

But hey, if you think that this game is not optimized enough for [game mode here] enough or [game mode here] needs to never be played ever again, feel free to waste your time "fixing" that.

Oh, and a small thing to note: Roboenza was what brought me here back in 2011. Not the normal game itself.

@Alice:
Alice, if that was the case of your opinion, you have yet presented it in such a way. So far, every post up to this one I can only see, and I can only logically figure at you swinging for the fences, metaphorically speaking. I'm speaking purely from what I understand from them, on a whole. If I'm mishearing you, please correct me where you see a place where I'm not getting your message.

So far that's what I've been seeing, but let me assure you, I'm not "panicking". The thread was put here to be a primary way to express opinion and thought on the matter, as is the Skype chat and calls a secondary means to express thought and opinion, as well as have more dynamic discussion take place in a way that can catch attention and well-formed thought from anyone there as well.

If you have thoughts to give, ideas to share, and something to contribute, then you should do -- I'm not trying to flag down anything against me as some form of an attack. But when people go out of their way to take a single piece of my words, quote it, and use it to springboard something that then leads to... well, nothing, it begins to get old quickly. Like the person I'm about to address after you.

If your opinion is, in your own words (or, at least a quote I feel is capturing the essence of your opinion on this particular post):

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And I still believe that the game is not what makes people leave.
I think it is the tendency of many people here to antagonize other people based on their opinion.

-- Then try to help everyone reading understand by explaining the thought in detail, and how that affects other things that can influence the changes and plans we need to make. If you just dump a thought like that, without specifying for what means it's for, or what it's intended, people like myself already dealing with everything are going to be unable to truly figure out the core of your message.

Okay? Okay.

(click to show/hide)

I'm going to start actively refusing to reply to any message that has nothing to do with the subject at hand, and doesn't even to have anything to remotely do with what this thread is intended for.

Thread has already been hijacked, bro. And for better reasons that are actually on-topic: to discuss if such a thing as "a dead community" exists, and if it does, what are the actual causes and what can be done about it.

It's also already been established that you're a self-centered fallacious alarmist (creating a massive skype group chat with "everyone" to expose them your opinion, in the hopes of everyone accepting your argument and shield yourself with argumentum ad populum), and a doomsayer (asserting as fact that the MM8BDM community is dying, regardless of what has been exposed, to the point of blind faith).

And just to make myself not "sound mean", I'll dissect the three pillars of your argument:

Code: [Select]

#1. Our community majority player-base is made up of selfish, jaded users, who will resist change of any kind. They refuse to take anything seriously, and seek to discredit anyone and anything that shows direct opposition to what they believe is correct.
That's a huge generalization, specially when being directed to a mod-driven community. Things like MMSP, CSCC, YDClasses and KYClasses, Chaos Generator and many more mods are the proof of a community that seeks to change things around. Unless you mean changes within the approach of the veterans towards new players, which in that case there's been a huge push to mak things as accesible as possible. Go check the tutorial threads made by the same guys you call "selfish" and "jaded": all made for the sake of accesibility of mods for new players. Unless you mean something entirely different which I don't know since you haven't defined "change".

Code: [Select]

#2 Our game-modes, and the choices and popularization of said choices of servers hosted with them, have gotten to the point it has made the base-game itself stale and uninteresting.
It's not the servers' fault nor the mods' fault for vanilla becoming stale: time is to blame. As with any game, there comes a point where novelty wears off. It is inevitable.

Code: [Select]

#3 The people who know that it's a problem refuse to do anything to change it, because they believe it is inevitable, and those who don't know can't figure out why it is, because every-time we try to discuss it, people destroy the debate and discussion before it can even start.
You're right: we believe it is normal and inevitable for a community to not be crazy active after a long time (despite that it still is alive, making new things, and with ongoing interaction between members), or an old game to not be as active now as it used to be when it was new. This is experience with other communities and games talking here.

If we're going to talk asshole members and asshole players scaring new people away: they are always a shunned minority, so their impact is minimal.



A'ight. Now with that out of the way...let's not take things too far with "banning Saxton Hale". I don't care how shoehorned and badly designed it is: we simply cannot take away other people's fun simply because we think it's so memeticly popular it keeps new people from trying different things. And I think that there just isn't enough people that care about Saxton Hale dominating the servers, and therefore think it is necessary to "ban" it.

If we want people to play something else, we should get together and play it to make it popular: not get together and argue that some other people are playing something we don't like and want to force them to play something we like. Except that we have more refined gameplay tastes than the group that devotes to play Saxton Hale, so we all don't find one single thing to be the best: we all have different tastes, while they all share the same taste.

Balrog (and company): we can't do much other than outlive Saxton Hale Fever, which we will if we keep duel tourneys, mod updates, map packs, official expansions, and forum discussion to keep us together and interested. Balrog: I know that this is personal for you, but there is one thing that I think you're wrong thinking of, and that you've got to trust me with: the next big thing is MMSP, not SH. SH "was" the big thing that killed Roboenza, and its time will come. Unless it doesn't, which really isn't so much of an issue right now. Unless SH outlives MM8BDM's final update, which I would worry then.

@MusashiAA
Congratulations, you're about to make me respond to you, and make a liar out of myself in my own words of intent. Why?
Because of the sheer amount of willpower to force me to address this post because of your intent on derailing.

And I'm not joking when I say that, and I'm attempting to not see it as such, but I'm sorry -- You came in stating it's hijacked off rip, and by not stating directly who, I have to assume by you.

To which I have one response.

No. No, sir, no.

No, it is not hijacked, nor will it be. Why is it not hijacked? Because I'm not going to sit here and let you tell me it is. But, that's not fully addressing everything I need to in your post, ontop of the blatent lies I'm reading, as well as your opinions being facaded as something more than opinion. I'm not exactly sure what it's supposed to be, but about.... I'll say 60% of this post isn't needed. But I'll pick it apart, so I'll show you what I believe is and isn't. And it's my opinion, just as most of this is yours, so you'll just have to accept it. I want you to understand before I start that I'm being completely impartial in answering this, and I'm removing myself as a person from my emotions to what you're saying. That's so that I can be fair when i do this.

And yes, there are blatant lies in your post. Exactly like the ones OJ attempted, no less. I'm not sure if you did it intentionally, but I'll be happy to show you my logic. Perception is a very powerful weapon, and just as OJ was in the start, you're attempting to vilify me in this post.

Since you're giving me no choice, just give me a second to slip on my gloves here... *snap*...*snap*
Mk, here we go.

Let's start with this:

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And for better reasons that are actually on-topic: to discuss if such a thing as "a dead community" exists, and if it does, what are the actual causes and what can be done about it.
.. Uhm. We did that already. And more to the point, that would be implying that we are already dead. And if it wasn't, it would also be implying that we're on the road to dying and becoming dead in any form, shape and reason that would create said problem, which we are. We're anything but A-OK hunkydory, and here's proof of that fact, in an excerpt from OJ expressing his thoughts on that aspect:
 

Ok, no. While this thread may not have a basis, Cutstuff is anything BUT thriving. And if you're talking about the Skype chats, I would rather try to have a friendly discussion on /b/. At least there, people don't recognize each other so that they can hold a grudge.

This was in response to someone else quoting me and attempting to pick apart what once again has been misquoted and taken as my direct thought summary of the public opinion from those who participated in the Chat Discussion and call, to reach said consensus. I'll just tack that onto this paragraph before moving on:

My reasoning for this being, if Cutstuff is truly going to shit, how do we still have a thriving community that continues to maintain a friendly relationship with each other?

All righty, moving on:

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It's also already been established that you're a self-centered fallacious alarmist (creating a massive skype group chat with "everyone" to expose them your opinion, in the hopes of everyone accepting your argument and shield yourself with argumentum ad populum), and a doomsayer (asserting as fact that the MM8BDM community is dying, regardless of what has been exposed, to the point of blind faith).
..Sigh.-
Okay. Three things I have to ask.

[*]Who established this vilified personification of me, and can you list everyone who established this by name?
[*]Have you taken Pre-Law, and do you understand what that term meant, without using Wikipedia's Law section?
[*]Were you in the group I attempted to gather, and did you even read the first section of the OP?

Now, for those of you who haven't taken pre-law classes as a college course, or may not have gotten to that lesson in social studies, allow me to define to you the term Argumentum ad populum , as described in my pre-law coursebook:

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In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it. In other words, the basic idea of the argument is: "If many believe so, it is so."

What he's saying is that the three summarized conclusions from the OP, are false truth being pushed by me to cover my own assets of debate, by saying they were supported by a majority number of undisclosed persons involved in the agreeance of the first, which denoted these as the former.

Long example short: He's saying I'm lying my ass off, and I'm trying to cover myself.

Now, allow me to quote myself twice from earlier:

I'm not insulting everyone. Those, in the quotes are the exact things everyone in the call and chat agreed were the root problems. If you don't believe me, I'll happily copypasta to you every conversation main and on the side.
I warn you though, many of the side conversation are basically " Lol -Ran, trying to save 8BDM"....

Also, you forgot the preface that explained that was the collective census on the matter. They are not my sole feelings.

Also, I never said "toxic players are toxic so this is why". That was the public opinion agreed upon by those actually willing to discuss it. Was my opinion involved in it? yes, it was. However, I was not the sole person who agreed on this.

When I said these statements, I envisioned someone who would attempt what you just did, so I made sure I repeated myself more than once.

And I'll repeat myself again, and I'll make sure I make myself clear here.

(click to show/hide)

If you don't believe that this was agreed upon in text and by call, I dare you to ask me to copy and paste 17 different side conversations sent to me by several different people, as well as the 600+ message chat, and I will sit here with you over Skype in a call, in this painful damn desk chair of mine as I read line after line to you from start to finish, including the fanfiction someone kept spamming in the chat and in PM IMs, because between chater's 19 and 25 of this, several people spoke out and testified that these things were issues, and after asking and checking several times, we all agreed we would label them as our collective problems, including the one person who laid it down, point by point.

Now then, while I expect his Skype poke with baited breath after I post this, allow me to continue.

The above excerpt is an unneeded and failed attempt at vilification. It's unneeded, and was put into that so that the following statement would have more gravitational weight.

#1. You're stating your own personal opinion into a debate as an argumentum ad populum, just barely before accusing me of my own.

#2. That second part of the statement is a lie. Why? Because of this:

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Also, here's what you didn't know:

Permissions were set up so that people could be able to listen and talk to other in a debate and discussion. Sadly, the bad apples saw fit to go all out to troll.

Every time the chat permission for the users that weren't mods were set, I explained why it was, and asked the chat to behave. And as my just rewards for asking people who seem to be deadset on doing the opposite, continued to troll.

At the very beginning of the chat ( and first call), i introduced everyone to who I was, why they were brought together, and presented to them my opinions and views, so that I could rationalize my position and voice on the matter they had been brought for.

Not once, did I ever mix or confuse my opinions and ideals of the discussion being had as hard fact that had to be swallowed by all in attendance. I opened the floor for open discussion, so everyone could speak on the matter, and so those who did not agree with, or did not see how the situation I prose was the problem or the issue, could then prose their own and that be discussed, and so on.

And as explained in this quote, despite the permissions set to be able to stop the trolling that would make debate and discussion impossible, people continued to carry on with the problems, which in reailty delayed the actual core group that was participating from reaching these conclusions by around 55 minutes. Which was explained in the original post, verbatim.

Seeing as how your description of the event and situation in question are half-completed at best, and because you decided to vilify me instead of simply presenting a counterargument , I have to assume either you were part of the group that was trolling, or you misunderstood or misinterpreted what I said or did, and thus allowed your perception of the situation as a whole shape this false image of me, my intent on starting the group, and the situation at large.

If I'm wrong, or there's something you haven't shared, please directly contact me on Skype so we can discuss elsewhere and not here, because it's not conducive to the thread's intent as it's purely supplementary.

And 3#: Exposed? Exposed what? And pushing what as fact to the point of blind faith, other than this "false truth" you accuse me of? It would be lovely to understand if I knew what was being exposed from before, so I could address it properly.

Okay, moving on. Now I'm not going to point out your point rebuttal, as you actually did flesh out your stand on them as you went over them and thus can understand them and I can accept them as a counterargument, so I'll pick it up right... here:

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A'ight. Now with that out of the way...let's not take things too far with "banning Saxton Hale". I don't care how shoehorned and badly designed it is: we simply cannot take away other people's fun simply because we think it's so memeticly popular it keeps new people from trying different things. And I think that there just isn't enough people that care about Saxton Hale dominating the servers, and therefore think it is necessary to "ban" it.

If we want people to play something else, we should get together and play it to make it popular: not get together and argue that some other people are playing something we don't like and want to force them to play something we like. Except that we have more refined gameplay tastes than the group that devotes to play Saxton Hale, so we all don't find one single thing to be the best: we all have different tastes, while they all share the same taste.
Okay, simple enough, last two things that stick out.

#1: Never said anything about "banning" Saxton, or any modes like them, as that would punish those who wish to play the mode, as the aren't guilty for their preference.

#2 This is what I said, exactly:

Now, in the case our problem is one of disinterest, all we have to do is encourage those players who refuse to play other things because they feel unskilled at them by taking them by the hand, introducing them to the mode, and playing it with them, and then doing that on a regular basis so there's more than just Saxton Hale servers that are pulling most of the attention.

If the problem turns out to be one of resistance to playing because of the boredom with the basegame, which I define as the game modes we play on: DM, T/LMS, Duel, CTF, and the wildcard modes we've made over the years (In this context: Saxton, (Rage)Robo, ScrewScramble, BotApoc, Classes etc..) -- which is the core of every mode and gametype we play, not just a object that we can easily point at and say:" Oh, anything using mods on a server are pure evil, and vanilla is the only way! " -- then we have to take the second option:

Creating a game-type and game mode that appeal to those who are resistant to changing from it, and those who immerse fully in it now.

At best, Option #2 would end up being a band-aid solution, and Option #1 is too idyllic to work without people reinforcing what we'd be attempting. But as you can see, neither option suggested "banning" any mode, and certainly not Saxton.

[-RanRan]

(click to show/hide)

I'm having a hard time trying to work out what this argument is about. The fact people won't stop playing a certain game mode or something else?

I have no idea what Ran's talking about; I think he just wants attention at this point. I, personally, have been talking about the specific problems that people not playing anything other than one game mode presents for MM8BDM.

You can't stop people playing what they want to play. The Skulltag community curse seems to be coming full circle now. I made GVH, it was played all the time because some people found it fun, community decides it needs to be removed from server listings and starts secret clubs on IRC on how to stop GVH and finding CutmanMike's address to put an end to him (I'm serious). How is that fair on the people who just legitimately enjoy the game mode? You can't stop people playing COD or Halo because they enjoy it, and you can't stop people playing doom mods either.

One difference between GvH and Saxton (or MMSP, if Musashi's dartboard of fate isn't on the blink) is that while having everyone playing GvH doesn't cripple your ability to fully enjoy single-player wads like Beyond Reality (or even other multiplayer Doom mods since the Doom community is so large), having everyone playing Saxton does affect your ability to fully enjoy other MM8BDM mods and modes, because bots suck and single-player mods are small and few in number. Another problem I pointed out previously is that, much like Brutal Doom, Saxton has created its own system of players who have never touched anything else. While other popular Doom mods also have this effect to a certain extent, it's much more severe and damaging for MM8BDM because the population gap between the Saxton-only community and "us" is so large. Imagine if 90% of all the people on the Zandronum master server were playing in one Brutal Doom server. Now imagine someone trying to get a game of priv going in an environment like that; I don't think it would be very long before they would ragequit.

Also, MM8BDM has a different community makeup than Doom by virtue of being a fangame of an oft-Googled property. Sonic Robo Blast 2 would be a better frame of reference.

I've said this time and time again, if you want people to stop playing a certain game mode, make a better one! Or work together to make better game mode, share some ideas. Don't just make more and more topics about the same damn thing. I do not and will not support suggested nazi methods to stop people playing or talking about things they enjoy playing.

The problem with trying to make new mods is the aforementioned disassociation effect reducing the chances that they'll catch on significantly; remember when Samsara was featured on Kotaku, and there was a deluge of questions about whether it was compatible with Brutal Doom? That's the same thing.

As for "the community dying"... is it? I haven't heard or seen any hard evidence supporting this claim, like at all. The only things I've heard are the development team struggling to make everyone happy with their "we want your opinion on xyz" posts, which I've briefly gone over with Ivory. To me it just sounds like kicking up drama for no good reason (or little personal reason) but I am willing to hear people out if they can show me what they're talking about. Otherwise I'm going to lock this under the assumption nothing is going to come out of it other than adding more fuel to the fire.

I think the problem is mainly worries about a multiplayer monoculture crippling new player adoption (see above) combined with the various asshattery on Skype stirring the pot. Those are valid concerns, mind, but the way Ran basically attempted to preach to everyone about how he was the One True Savior of MM8BDM poisoned this thread to be a mess from the start.

I can't do it right now, but I'm planning on doing a essay on this since Jenova seemed interested in it. So keep an eye out for that.

@Balrog

I'll have to address yours once I get back from work.

(click to show/hide)

I'm having a hard time trying to work out what this argument is about. The fact people won't stop playing a certain game mode or something else?

You can't stop people playing what they want to play. The Skulltag community curse seems to be coming full circle now. I made GVH, it was played all the time because some people found it fun, community decides it needs to be removed from server listings and starts secret clubs on IRC on how to stop GVH and finding CutmanMike's address to put an end to him (I'm serious). How is that fair on the people who just legitimately enjoy the game mode? You can't stop people playing COD or Halo because they enjoy it, and you can't stop people playing doom mods either. I've said this time and time again, if you want people to stop playing a certain game mode, make a better one! Or work together to make better game mode, share some ideas. Don't just make more and more topics about the same damn thing. I do not and will not support suggested nazi methods to stop people playing or talking about things they enjoy playing.

As for "the community dying"... is it? I haven't heard or seen any hard evidence supporting this claim, like at all. The only things I've heard are the development team struggling to make everyone happy with their "we want your opinion on xyz" posts, which I've briefly gone over with Ivory. To me it just sounds like kicking up drama for no good reason (or little personal reason) but I am willing to hear people out if they can show me what they're talking about. Otherwise I'm going to lock this under the assumption nothing is going to come out of it other than adding more fuel to the fire.

@CMM
No wait, don't do that. Also, good point. That's half the reason why something on the actual matter are harder to address and define, CMM. There's also the stigma in the forums that's been applied by threads of this kind -- Political Threads -- , and how in the normal "life cycle" of one along at this point, would devolve into something along the lines of "semantic shouting fest with no reason", with no ideas being offered or no plan to remedy the problem presented in the beginning.

So far, we have 4 viable separate ideas in which we can act on: Two of mine, one of Balrog's, and SSW's.

Option #1: Relieve the stigma and tension stress most new players are feeling when attempting to enter the community, by actively encouraging populating servers with gametypes and modes normally not played, and helping show people who aren't frequent to them how they work, so they don't feel so overwhelmed with some thing that would be norm in them.

Option #2: Attempt to ask the community players of both schools of thought (I.E. Casuals and the higher skills professionals) what they find enjoyable about the gametypes and modes they play with other on and with others, and attempt to take that information to update and renew an older gametype, or take it and make a new one that would then appeal to all, thus bringing everyone together to enjoy this new gametype.

This plan is much like your words here:

I've said this time and time again, if you want people to stop playing a certain game mode, make a better one! Or work together to make better game mode, share some ideas.

Option #3: Attempt to do something akin to the first part of Option #2, but it would be more aggressive and would be generally looking for people, and actively attempting to make them play other things. ( I do not suggest this, at all. It's counterproductive.)

Option #4: By using the reliable system of the Best Ever bot/hosting system, someone who can set up and host servers features gamemodes/types of the less popular degree, and do that on a weekly basis, and then from the recording of people playing it actively, they create Youtube/Blip videos intended on bringing up the visibility of MM8BDM on  the internet, which in theory would break the "stagnancy" of both our diminishing numbers, as well as the "stale" feeling of disinterest on the topic of the "basegame".

Right now, CMM, I need to leave for work. Please, that's all I'm asking.

If you can at least give me an attempt to make a case for you before you lock this, that'd be all I ask for. I'm more than stressed about how controversial the thread is, to the point it's affected my capabilities of playing the game.

[Jman]

Do you want to see a dead community? THIS is a dead community, Ran!

The link leads to the forums I was a part of before I found cutstuff. I'm not asking you to click it or read any of the posts, but if you take the time to look, you'll see what I'm talking about. That sort of community is what should drive someone to act the way you are now, not this one.

Also, you need to understand the difference between criticism and "attacking". Noone here is trying to "derail" or "attack" anything. We're simply trying to point out that all of this is a major over-reaction. We want the community to improve, but you started this topic off by insulting a "majority of us". If I could paraphrase your first post, it would be "Hey, this community is in deep shit, and it's all YOUR fault, guys. But don't worry, I have a plan, I'll just tell you later since you're probably not going to help." Not the best rhetorical strategy, and highly fallacious. Sure, the community has its problems. Yes, there are overly dogmatic douches here and there. But that's not going to kill this community, at least not soon. Don't get me wrong though, everyone here can agree that there are things this community can improve on, but you did a very, very poor job of rounding everyone up and persuading them to join you. I don't mean to be blunt or offensive, but if anything, this all seems a bit too centered around you, if you ask me.

Lastly, for the sake of everyone here, stop playing innocent with every post. Simply shrugging off criticism and dismissing it as trolling or attacking you won't help anything. In fact, it only perpetuates the argument here about the overall fallacy of this topic and the skype group from earlier.

Oh yeah: then there's this:

[*]Who established this vilified personification of me, and can you list everyone who established this by name?
  -I hope you know that you brought this on yourself. That's what happens when you start the basis of your argument by insulting your audience.
[*]Have you taken Pre-Law, and do you understand what that term meant, without using Wikipedia's Law section?
  -No I haven't. However, this isn't a constitutional convention, nor are you in any position to moderate the forums or make the rules here.
[*]Were you in the group I attempted to gather, and did you even read the first section of the OP?
  -This I am guilty of though. I'm sorry spamming that group. However, I did so because I kinda felt offended by being called into an "emergency situation" when it's really not that big of a deal. It's like someone pulling the tornado alarm when it's just barely raining outside.

Now, for those of you who haven't taken pre-law classes as a college course, or may not have gotten to that lesson in social studies, allow me to define to you the term Argumentum ad populum , as described in my pre-law coursebook:
  -I have a question for YOU. Have you taken any rhetoric classes as a college course? You want to appeal to your target audience, not belittle them, challenge their logic, and dismiss their questions/criticism. If this weren't the case, people here wouldn't be posting angry responses that become more and more of a tl;dr every time.

[/color]

[Rozark]

Can we just lock this
I'm seriously tired of seeing this be a monthly thing, now extending into a weekly thing.
Now THAT folks, is BAD.

[Ceridran]

Do you want to see a dead community? THIS is a dead community, Ran!

You just linked to a community which clearly says it's guild is disbanded.

Wow, why could it be dead? I wonder? Much mystery! So unknown!

I'd probably say more here, but I don't understand a single thing I say.

[Knux]

You know something? The only problem I'm seeing is that there's a third instance of something we've been over with. This kind of thing is tired as fuck, and the only real solution in case there's so much worry to keep the game alive is to take action. No amount of repeating this thing will accomplish anything. Wanna make sure something gets done? Actually make something.

In fact, -Ran, one would think you'd know better than to make another of these if you were so aware of what has been happening in the forums and the game. But you suddenly coming out of nowhere and posting this kind of thread gives me the impression that you weren't.

+1 Lock

[Beed28]

I always try to keep out of discussions like these, but I really do start to think that Saxton Hale is getting out of hand. I came here to play Mega Man, not some random meme characters hastily thrown together. Especially since none of the Saxton Hale mods respects bots that I only play with.

Anyway, I do also agree that this thread has had its time. In the glorious words of SmashBro:

lockity lock lock