What I hate about Wily Stage 1 in the first Mega Man Game

[NemZ]

You guys are nuts.  Using weapons as problem solving tools is a great idea and fortress stages are exactly the place to put them as part of the required path.  Besides, what would be the point of even making mobility items if not to get past some obstacle later?

As to this specific example, why would you waste energy for elec beam, arguably the best weapon in the game, when confronted with one of the few times guts would actually do something besides just sit in your subscreen looking stupid?  Guts really needs an alternate attack when no blocks are around, and the block breaking function should be completely exclusive to it to help justify the weapon's existence.

As to making minor puzzle elements with the rest: elec for frying security switchboxes that are often in places other weapons can't reach, bomb for triggering switch gates on a delay or pressure switches(or both), and fire... burning something, I guess?  Lighting up a dark room works too, sure.

[Megaman94]

Wily 1 had some of that.
Ice slasher froze the Big Eyes and the flame pillars
Magnet Beam was used required to get through the one room
Super Arm was the only way to move the blocks in the beginning of the stage.
and if your were not careful, Thunder Beam was the only was to destroy the fleas that ambush you at the top of the ladder.

[Ivory]

You guys are nuts.  Using weapons as problem solving tools is a great idea and fortress stages are exactly the place to put them as part of the required path.  Besides, what would be the point of even making mobility items if not to get past some obstacle later?

As to this specific example, why would you waste energy for elec beam, arguably the best weapon in the game, when confronted with one of the few times guts would actually do something besides just sit in your subscreen looking stupid?  Guts really needs an alternate attack when no blocks are around, and the block breaking function should be completely exclusive to it to help justify the weapon's existence.

As to making minor puzzle elements with the rest: elec for frying security switchboxes that are often in places other weapons can't reach, bomb for triggering switch gates on a delay or pressure switches(or both), and fire... burning something, I guess?  Lighting up a dark room works too, sure.

No, it's a terrible idea. A few gimmicks is one thing, but when you have to juggle around every single weapon / utility to progress through a stage, that is leaning into unfun territory. Mega Man is not the game to be doing things like this, especially classic Mega Man where your special weapons need energy to recharge. Such behavior encourages not using your special weapons ever because of required bits.

Super Arm was the only way to move the blocks in the beginning of the stage.

Thunder Beam destroys them too.

[Korby]

Things like the first three megaman games are why I'm so nervous about using ammo in any game. "What if I need it later?"

[Megaman94]

Super Arm was the only way to move the blocks in the beginning of the stage.

Thunder Beam destroys them too.

oops, forgot about that ^^;

Plus, you need the weapon ammo for the boss rush. Especially if you are playing Mega Man 1, because you don't get health after you beat the Robot Master

[NemZ]

Completely disagree.  Puzzle elements like that don't encourage you to never use them, just not to use them all the time.  Besides, making running out of energy a relevant problem in fortress stages means W tanks would actually have a purpose.  Seems truely bizarre to me that they introduced W tanks right at the same time they started making them pointless.

[Dr. Freeman]

"Gimmick" uses for weapons only are good if they are rarely, if every forced. Such as Tornado Hold in MM9. It makes you jump higher plus there are those platforms that move up in Wily 1. However, you only need it for like 3 screens, and said screens are absolutely littered with weapon energy so you don't run out. But it doesn't shove these platforms down your throat. I'd say that's a pretty good use of an add "gimmick" to the weapon.

 Mega Man and Bass has the Ice Wall in constant use, it kind of teeters on the edge of "pretty decent" to "please stop making me use this" but if I remember correctly, there is generally (key word, generally) a good chunk of weapon energy nearby when it's forced. Though I could be more mistaken on this example.

What's not a good use of an effect weapon is everything concerning Crash Bombs in MM2. Forces use all over the place, and there's never a place where it actually gives you ammo for the weapon. You have to farm it manually for 10 hours and then cry yourself to sleep when you accidentally shoot one too many because you didn't know about the Buebeam Trap ahead of time so you shot all those alluring walls that you need Crash Bombs to break.

There's a fine line between a neat small gimmick and "oh god please stop". Magnet Beam is a utility weapon, so it's expected to get some use. But the way it's handled is kinda sloppy and could have been done so much better.


The problem with puzzle elements in the latter case NemZ, is that W Tanks only exist in like 2 Mega Man games. Not counting the GB series.

[Ivory]

Yes, the best use of weapon gimmicks is non-forced shortcuts. Not when you have to use them to progress.

But then, this topic turned into ranting about Wily Stage 1 to Mega Man game design in general.

[NemZ]

But then, this topic turned into ranting about Wily Stage 1 to Mega Man game design in general.

Seems like a change for the better to me.

"Gimmick" uses for weapons only are good if they are rarely, if every forced.

Well sure, you don't want the things to be required all the dang time.  That would get old fast and WOULD encourage players to hoard ammo for them.  I just mean once in a while, and only ever forced in fortress stages.  In RM stages it should be for shortcuts or rare powerups only, to encourage players to experiment so that they're ready for when it will be do or die time.

And I didn't mean those puzzle uses for bomb/cut/elec/fire should also be in the first wily stage.  That would be just too damn much.  Maybe in stage 3 though, which was sorely in need of other mechanics.

What's not a good use of an effect weapon is everything concerning Crash Bombs in MM2.

Agreed, though you have to admit it was still an improvement on guts for a map-affecting weapon concept.  MM2 has a lot of design flaws but it was undoubtedly a big step in the right direction nonetheless.

[Beed28]

On the subject of required weapon/equipment with limited energy usage, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that Rush Jet section in Doc Robot Needle Man's stage yet, in which gives you no opportunity to let you farm Weapon Energy just before it (I think? It's been a long while since I last played 3), and the Weapon Energy pickups themselves don't respawn after you die.

Or worse yet, the arbitrary Rush Coil requirement in Doc Robot Gemini Man's stage, where after defeating Flash Man, if you don't have enough energy for Rush Coil, you get stuck and have to RESET the game entirely (there's the player 2 controller cheats, but they're fixed in the ports and remakes, not to mention unavailable in the 3DS Virtual Console version).

Mega Man 6 was a lot better about this, which gave you the Rush Adaptors, which could be used an unlimited amount of times.

[NemZ]

I see the doc robot stages as fortress levels (since you've got all the tools now) so DR Needle Rush Jet section feels fair to me.  The real problem there is the arangement of stage elements... if that section came before Airman and the checkpoint it would have been fine.

As to the DR Gemini problem... yeah, there should be a pit there for extreme circumstances.  Really though, how the hell does anyone manage to use all their rush coil in any stage, much less just half of one?  I mean the possibility is there, I grant you that, but has anyone ever actually gotten stuck there without it being on purpose, for real?

Adaptors are nifty, though having them, much like the charge shot, tends to make the weapons less important.  If only they set it up so you could choose an adaptor and still swap weapons... and even better, use the weapons differently when in different forms.  Say, power adaptor megaman swings the knight crush out in an overhand (but non-aimable) arc that has longer reach and hits harder, but also uses ammo faster.

[Threxx]

On the subject of required weapon/equipment with limited energy usage, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that Rush Jet section in Doc Robot Needle Man's stage yet, in which gives you no opportunity to let you farm Weapon Energy just before it (I think? It's been a long while since I last played 3), and the Weapon Energy pickups themselves don't respawn after you die.

Or worse yet, the arbitrary Rush Coil requirement in Doc Robot Gemini Man's stage, where after defeating Flash Man, if you don't have enough energy for Rush Coil, you get stuck and have to RESET the game entirely (there's the player 2 controller cheats, but they're fixed in the ports and remakes, not to mention unavailable in the 3DS Virtual Console version).

Mega Man 6 was a lot better about this, which gave you the Rush Adaptors, which could be used an unlimited amount of times.

The Doc Robot stages as a whole are all designed poorly. Bad checkpoints, unfair bosses, and these cheap utility sections. Then you get the Wily Stages, which are all too EASY to be even considered real fortress stages. Just shows how rushed MM3 was in it's late stages.

That's another reason why I love MM6. The utilities don't use energy.

[Megaman94]

On the subject of required weapon/equipment with limited energy usage, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that Rush Jet section in Doc Robot Needle Man's stage yet, in which gives you no opportunity to let you farm Weapon Energy just before it (I think? It's been a long while since I last played 3), and the Weapon Energy pickups themselves don't respawn after you die.

Or worse yet, the arbitrary Rush Coil requirement in Doc Robot Gemini Man's stage, where after defeating Flash Man, if you don't have enough energy for Rush Coil, you get stuck and have to RESET the game entirely (there's the player 2 controller cheats, but they're fixed in the ports and remakes, not to mention unavailable in the 3DS Virtual Console version).

Mega Man 6 was a lot better about this, which gave you the Rush Adaptors, which could be used an unlimited amount of times.

The Doc Robot stages as a whole are all designed poorly. Bad checkpoints, unfair bosses, and these cheap utility sections. Then you get the Wily Stages, which are all too EASY to be even considered real fortress stages. Just shows how rushed MM3 was in it's late stages.

That's another reason why I love MM6. The utilities don't use energy.

You get 5 E-Tanks total  in the Wily stages. It is the easiest castle in Mega Man History.

EDIT: I also hate the fact in Wily stage 4, they have you fight 4 robot masters (Bomb Man, Fire Man, Ice Man, and Guts Man) with  no health pick ups in between bosses.

[Dr. Crasger]

EDIT: I also hate the fact in Wily stage 4, they have you fight 4 robot masters (Bomb Man, Fire Man, Ice Man, and Guts Man) with  no health pick ups in between bosses.

Yeah...

I remember abusing the [SELECT] glitch so much during that time...

ah memories.

Bloody Wily Stages.

[NemZ]

I played a hack a while back where those rematches all took place on ice floors.  :twisted: