Cutstuff Community Classes Contest #2

[Ceridran]

A lone class, "Ninjaman" was not included; take a look via Slade yourself, he's there, but missing in keyconf.

Nevermind!

[Gummywormz]

I had no clue what class that was. It was in Treo's individual entry pk3, but the DECORATE / KeyConf was not included in the main files. I assumed it was a leftover considering that Jax also made Knux and they were separate entries. If there was a note that the class was to exist / it was included in KEYCONF I would have included it.

[diego58]

It's too late to participate?  :?

[Ceridran]

Yes, playtesting has already gone through, but our judges just have to come to their conclusion.

If they do.

[Knux]

I'm still waiting on this, so here's some opinions on the classes meanwhile.

Treo:

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I like how Giga Drain acts like Grab Buster. I'm not sure what Will-o-Wisp does because I hit a target with it and I think they took additional damage (like Wily capsule burn damage.) As it has been said before though, I'm not sure how it's supposed to be weak. I guess its arcing shots need aiming, but that's up to player skill and not a real weakness.

Tank Snail:

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Mucus shots that slow people down and hit like bricks, a jet pack like Dark Man 1's, and an overheat system. I suppose its weakness comes from being in crowds, but that's too much of a weakness. When I heard there was a snail class, I was hoping it could retreat into its shell to negate damage (and maybe reflect shots!) As it is, though, being the class is a weakness in itself when more than one person is attacking you at a time. I feel it's flawed in that aspect, but it's fun to play as regardless. Also, the mucus puddles should stun people like Spark Shock to aid it further.

Knux:

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I hear people complaining that his weakness isn't obvious, and to be honest, this is something I took into mind when I first came up with the class's concept. In the end, I couldn't make it obvious Knux can hurt himself with his own attacks. The only idea I could come up with was modifying the Burst Man skin to have spikes, but that would've looked ugly as heck. Sorry!

Someone asked earlier about the name of the big bubble attack. It's Bubble Bouncer.  

Tsuyoi:

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He's difficult to use since he's all melee. I guess the weakness here is that if your opponent can back away and fire, you can't land hits. In a game where projectiles are pretty much everywhere, that's going to prove tough. Aside from that, this class feels like it has a high learning curve. The cooldown on his kick attack could be smaller, if you ask me.

Viz:

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Needing to get somewhat close to land your shots appears to be the disadvantage at first, but having the ability to blind people and creating portals can save you if used right. It's not suicide to use this class as long as you know when and where to use the portals. This class feels like it requires the player to think straight and well about what they're going to do beforehand. As for a weakness, it seems situational. For example, if you panic and spam your portal, you're probably screwed as Viz doesn't have other means of escape other than his speed and normal jump. Very cool class, overall.

Juri:

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From what I've read, it seems you need to hit people to not die. The homing Paranoia Creeper is incredibly easy to use though (also removing paranoia in one hit), and the scream altfire it very strong. The class also has very good speed. I'm not really sure there's a weakness present here as it is, so it might need some adjustments to truly make it shine as intended.

Awadphec:

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This appears to be a glass cannon in all the sense of the word. The charge attacks making you hold still appears to be the weakness here, as the low armor will ensure all attacks hit you very hard. This means that either you continuously either fire click, or position yourself in a way that you can fire your charge attacks without getting hit. Out of all the classes entered, I feel this one follows the theme most closely, even if I didn't like how that charge sounds goes...

Nature's Wonder:

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Create crystal walls that probably nobody will run into if there's enough space in the map. Like Knux, Nature's Wonder's weakness is dependent upon the map the class is being played on, except it's more accentuated here. The crashing crystal alt could've been coupled with the main to make another effect. This class probably has the best "area of denial" attack in all of 8BDM though. The weakness becomes painfully obvious however, when the match becomes reduced in people as there's less heat from fighting and more awareness of environments.

Zard:

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I'm pretty sure there's no weaknesses in this class. People get close? Spam Thunder magic and obliterate them. People running away? Sweep them twice with a double Ice Wave that returns when pressing fire. While some might say Zard's Thunder magic is a better "area of denial" attack, I disagree simply because of how overpowered it is. With a serious nerf in the amount of shots, rate of fire and ammo though, it might not be nearly as bad. Even if that happened though, his weakness still wouldn't be clear to me because of the returning Ice Wave. I still had fun turning bots into softer matter, however.

Zangief:

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I don't see what people are complaining about his Atomic Buster for. If you can shoot him while he does it, you'll be free from the attack. How does he fly? In the time I was using Zangief, I was never able to fly, either.

Aside from that, his attacks hit hard, but the price for missing can be quite punishing. It follows the theme of the competition very well, though IMO, not as well as Awadphec even if the coding on this is pretty damn brilliant!

[Ceridran]

can I ever stop responding to comments on my class

[Knux]

I forgot to mention my top three picks:

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#1 - Awadphec
#2 - Zangief
#3 - Viz

Not voting for myself, just like in the map contest. I don't want people on my back if I happen to win something.

[King Dumb]

This is getting ridiculous so I'm posting my opinions. I would like to apologize again on behalf of myself and my fellow judges. This unprofessionalism is truly inexcusable. You have all been waiting patiently while things have not gone well behind the scenes, and for that I thank you. I am trying to fix this as much as I can by posting one third of the judge scoring. My method of judging focuses first on the theme, conceptual and in execution - the Achilles' Heel. Secondly, I judge based on class coherence - that is, how well the class is designed, essentially (this includes intuitiveness!). Thirdly, I focus on technicality - this means execution, balance, etc. I'm going to try and keep the anecdotal stuff to a minimum and focus on the relevant.

Treo
I had fun playing as Treo. And not just because he can beat Zangief. I enjoyed using all of the attacks, and each had its own depth. That's points for design to be sure. Playing as this class really immersed me, because I have to focus on any attack I use, but my focus is rewarded.

Unfortunately, this class has no obvious Achilles' Heel in gameplay. His slower speed seems to be getting at it. Unfortunately, slowness is a difficult Achilles' Heel to implement well in a projectile game like this one, since usually opponents want to get close anyway. In addition, Will-O-Wisp compensates a good deal. Finally, these classes are being judged for TDM I am told, so Treo will be able to find someone to leech off of even if someone else is trying to hit him out of his range.

Tank Snail
The Achilles' Heel on this class is better executed, because I can feel myself limited in certain situations during gameplay. Tank Snail is prone to overheating, and his movement leaves much to be desired. I like the overheating weakness; I would have liked to see it a bit more dynamic than it is here, but the concept is nice. It's a good thing he can take a hit or two, because with the overheating, you won't have access to that rocket for much of your fights. His projectile is very powerful, though.

Unfortunately, in addition to his overheating, Tank Snail is vertically challenged, slow, and is punished dearly for using his rocket. This winds up meaning you will hardly ever want to use the rocket, especially in DM.

Awadphec
This class is satisfying to be offensive with. His attacks are rewarding, when you land them. He is powerful and fast, but very weak defensively and is vulnerable and immobile during his ranged attacks, which must also be charged up by remaining immobile. My first impression was that this class was the result of overcompensation in both directions, making a class that is very map- and population-dependent. Upon further playing, I found that functional analysis to be mostly correct. I would tend to think of that as a negative in the design department. Usually more map-dependent things are undesirable.

Nevertheless, the class does fit the theme very well: powerful class, crippling weakness(es). Extra points for a Heel that isn't just speed vs. power vs. defense.

Viz
A very fun class to play. Coherence-wise a very well-made class. However, in the theme department he falls far short in my eyes. For an Achilles' Heel to work, it has to be just that: an unprotected weakness. Classes can compensate somewhat for their Heel, such as in certain favorable situations, but otherwise it should be largely uncovered. Viz's slow movement is so well compensated by his teleportation that it doesn't feel like a Heel, and his frailty weighed against his offensive prowess makes him less of an Achilles' Heel class, and more of a simply well-balanced class.

Tsuyoi
I certainly feel limited when using this class. To me, the Heel on this class is so overbearing and constant that it does feel like the class is just unfinished, or needs rebalancing. However, credit where credit is due, as he does have a crippling gameplay weakness. When you are successful with this class, it does feel satisfying and even fun. I was not convinced with playtesting that the class fits the criteria quite right, however, as stated above.

Juri
A fun and unique Achilles' Heel (within the restraints of this competition, that is), and technical points for implementation. However, as people have stated, the speed and aggression that this class promotes and rewards are enough to keep this Heel from rearing its ugly head too much. Unlike other classes, though, that compensate for their Heels with other design choices that you always have, Juri forces you to work to cover your Heel. However, in doing so, I often found myself forgetting about that aspect all together, as I was killing enough.

Knux
Points for a unique Achilles' Heel that is a constant worry but, unlike Tsuyoi, is integrated very well into the class design and is weighed against great power. Like some other classes, Knux does try to compensate for the Heel, and like Awadphec, the severity of the Heel varies greatly depending on the map. However, I really enjoyed playing as this class and it is coherent and well-designed.

Nature's Wonder
I had more success in-game with this class than I originally imagined I would. Nature's Wonder struggles to deal with enemies as close as mid-range even, but close range its great fun to use the different Crystal Formations. I had much less success, however, with the altfire (except for dealing with Awadphec). The huge delay means it is not only pure prediction, but also extremely good prediction, because you act on info that is extremely outdated by the time of impact. Still, I did manage to land some hits and it was fun to try. The Achilles' Heel on this class is sort of a combination of factors, which, while it is effective in crippling an otherwise powerful class, leaves something to be desired in the conceptual department.

Zard1084
This class is fun to use! But probably too fun, as most of the enjoyment came out of the sheer destruction he causes. The two weapons you wield are very nifty. Unfortunately, the raw power of this class means the strategy these weapons would otherwise promote is unnecessary. Theme-wise, his weaknesses are elemental, which misses the mark in terms of the Achilles' Heel.

Zangief
Perhaps the most controversial class in this competition. I will say that many who brought up how his flight compensates too much for his slowness forgot to mention the landing time he takes, which is a opening for an attack. However, as I mentioned similarly earlier, this still does lessen the effect and impact of the Achilles' Heel; the more you compensate for the flaw of the Heel, the less like a Heel it becomes, and the class simply becomes more like a naturally designed class: strong points and weak points. The difference between that an Achilles' Heel, in my interpretation, is that in the latter case, the weakness is exploited through a certain, very conscious playstyle. In the earlier case, the weakness is exploited more naturally through normal gameplay. This is why glass cannons, while certainly counting as having Heels, win less points in that department.

Now, about Zangief in particular. Raw power weighed against slow movement outside of his flight and a necessity to be at close range. As I said earlier, this is a difficulty type of Heel, since, disregarding the enemy class, most players like to get close anyway. That's in the nature of MM8BDM. Combined with flight, the Heel is certainly less severe than it first seems. However, he is truly ineffective at long range, and he does have great power otherwise, two criteria of the theme. More points for design and technicality, as this is a very well-made piece of work.

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Overall, I think this was a difficult theme to create a good candidate for, as the line between "natural well-balanced class" and "Achilles' Heel class" is difficult to see; some entrants found it in the intricacies of their class designs, while others found it just at a high degree of polarity in certain class characteristics. I enjoyed most of these classes. Also, I was pleasantly that most of these were much more intuitive to use than what I find in the main CSCC mod. Bravo to all contestants for that. When the judges were active, the scoring system was decided upon (or rather, it appeared to be the least objectionable.)

Theme [ 5 pts max, x2 multiplier]
Fun [5 pts max, x2 multiplier]
Intuitive [5 pts max]
Balance [5 pts max]
Originality [5 pts max]
Aesthetics [5 pts max]

Remember that these are not the final picks; this is just one third of the scoring.

Treo
Theme: 2 (x2)
Fun: 4 (x2)
Intuitive: 3
Balance: 4
Originality: 4
Aesthetics: 4
Total: 27/40

Tank Snail
Theme: 3 (x2)
Fun: 3 (x2)
Intuitive: 4
Balance: 3
Originality: 3
Aesthetics: 3
Total: 25/40

Awadphec
Theme: 4 (x2)
Fun: 3 (x2)
Intuitive: 4
Balance: 4
Originality: 3
Aesthetics: 3
Total: 28/40

Viz
Theme: 2 (x2)
Fun: 4 (x2)
Intuitive: 4
Balance: 4
Originality: 4
Aesthetics: 2
Total: 26/40

Tsuyoi
Theme: 3 (x2)
Fun: 2 (x2)
Intuitive: 3
Balance: 2
Originality: 4
Aesthetics: 2
Total: 21/40

Juri
Theme: 3 (x2)
Fun: 4 (x2)
Intuitive: 4
Balance: 2
Originality: 5
Aesthetics: 3
Total: 28/40

Knux
Theme: 4 (x2)
Fun: 4 (x2)
Intuitive: 3
Balance: 3
Originality: 5
Aesthetics: 3
Total: 30/40

Nature's Wonder
Theme: 2 (x2)
Fun: 4 (x2)
Intuitive: 3
Balance: 4
Originality: 4
Aesthetics: 4
Total: 27/40

Zard1084
Theme: 0 (x2)
Fun: 4 (x2)
Intuitive: 3
Balance: 1
Originality: 3
Aethetics: 3
Total: 18/40

Zangief
Theme: 3 (x2)
Fun: 4 (x2)
Intuitive: 3
Balance: 2
Originality: 3
Aesthetics: 4
Total: 26/40

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Stay tuned for the rest of the points! And thank you for bearing with us. Once again, I am truly sorry for the unprofessionalism and delay that has plagued this event.

[Korby]

At this point, I only plan on running one more of these. Whether or not it goes well, I will likely pull off as lead on the project and if someone wants to, they are free to take over.

That being said, most of the classes submitted this time were very interesting, though as King Dumb said, this is a difficult theme to design around correctly. I'm interested in seeing who will win, assuming our third judge ever finishes his scores.


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Treo
Treo is the only class I didn't play extensively. He also didn't leave a lasting impression on me, and I don't remember a lot about him aside from him being annoying to fight against if he's targeting you. Granted, he is a well designed class, but from what I've experienced, he doesn't seem to have too massive of a heel.
Theme: 2 (x2)
Fun: 3 (x2)
Intuitive: 3
Balance: 3
Originality: 4
Aesthetics: 4
Total: 24/40

Tank Snail
Tank Snail is pretty silly. I found that the tiny jump felt nice when going through areas, and that the projectile had very clear behaviors that were easily observed by shooting it once. The only things that bothered me were that it wasn't entirely apparent how you get the landing bonus from the altfire, and that running out of jetpack over a spring makes you stuck forever.
Theme: 4 (x2)
Fun: 3 (x2)
Intuitive: 4
Balance: 3
Originality: 4
Aesthetics: 4
Total: 29/40

Awadphec
Awadphec was...interesting. It's a fragile speedster, which is sort of normal for CSCC, but in order to recharge, it needs to stand still. I thought that was an interesting idea, but I'm not particularly fond of the execution. The altfire is a nice touch for finishing weakened opponents. I still don't understand the technicolor bar, though.
Theme: 4 (x2)
Fun: 3 (x2)
Intuitive: 3
Balance: 3
Originality: 4
Aesthetics: 3
Total: 27/40

Viz
I have never liked Mega's Opticman skin. I'll just say that upfront. The class is cool, fun, and isn't really like much in this game, but its short range is sort of nullified by its massive gap closer, and its low armor is trivial with its teleport. The projectile looks cool, though.
Theme: 3 (x2)
Fun: 4 (x2)
Intuitive: 4
Balance: 3
Originality: 3
Aesthetics: 3
Total: 27/40

Tsuyoi
I don't like this class. I think the "combo system" is interesting, but for something you have to work so hard to do, it doesn't really do a lot of damage. Why pick this when I could just smack someone with hard knuckle once and do more damage? I thought the jump kick was neat, but I didn't even discover it existed until near the end of testing the class. Aside from that, the class is very simple to pick up.
Theme: 3 (x2)
Fun: 2 (x2)
Intuitive: 4
Balance: 3
Originality: 3
Aesthetics: 3
Total: 23/40

Juri
I still barely understand this class's gimmick. This class is horrifically tanky, has homing search snakes, is roughly the same speed as Megaman, and a melee attack. It's actually fairly interesting, but not exactly the most balanced thing on the planet, and it doesn't seem to have a definite heel.
Theme: 2 (x2)
Fun: 3.5 (x2)
Intuitive: 3
Balance: 2
Originality: 5
Aesthetics: 3
Total: 24/40

Knux
At first, I didn't like this class. After a while, I realized why it fit in this competition. To deal any decent amount of damage whatsoever, it must spend a decent amount of time charging, which isn't fun for someone with such low movement speed. A very clear counterplay to this class is to get as close as you can and beat it to death, because it'll help you kill it if it even tries to shoot you due to the self damage. It does have tools to help keep away with its slow movement speed, being its altfire that pushes dudes away, and its item which allows for further vertical escalation, something it's already good at. I really like this class, and think it has a large chance of winning the competition.
Theme: 5 (x2)
Fun: 4 (x2)
Intuitive: 4
Balance: 4
Originality: 4
Aesthetics: 4
Total: 34/40

Nature's Wonder
This deer has range problems[this is not bad]. I do want to point out that at first, I didn't know it had different crystal formations.
Theme: 4 (x2)
Fun: 3 (x2)
Intuitive: 3
Balance: 2
Originality: 4
Aesthetics: 4
Total: 27/40

Zard1084
While this class would be fantastic for Saxton Hale, in its current state, it simply overpowers anything that attempts to fight it.
Theme: 0 (x2)
Fun: 3 (x2)
Intuitive: 3
Balance: 1
Originality: 3
Aesthetics: 2
Total: 15/40

Zangief
This class is an absolute BLAST to play, but is not exactly the most...balanced thing on the planet. A lot has already been said about Zangief, so I'll just point out that his flight can only go in one direction, and if he picks the wrong one, he won't be happy in the morning.
Theme: 3 (x2)
Fun: 5 (x2)
Intuitive: 3
Balance: 2
Originality: 2
Aesthetics: 3
Total: 26/40

Current totals:

Knux: 64/80
Awadphec: 55/80
Tank Snail: 54/80
Nature's Wonder: 54/80
Viz: 53/80
Zangief: 52/80
Juri: 52/80
Treo: 51/80
Tsuyoi: 44/80
Zard1084: 33/80

I believe I counted correctly, let me know if I didn't

[Ceridran]

The third judge is Messatsu, isn't it? I'm assuming you took Llama's place.



Also, while it's being questioned, I wanted to say that the technicolor bar is to make it easier to know when to use the special attacks. Each bar represents 7 ammo, the jump using 7 ammo and the charge using up 14.

[King Dumb]

Due to a lack of interest, Messatsu is no longer a judge for this competition. The third judge is instead SmashBroPlusB. This judge was approved by Ivory (or more accurately, Ivory was asked about it and said it didn't matter as long as the judge was not in the competition.) Hopefully he will be posting his scores soon so we can finish this competition properly.

[Zard1084]

Zard1084
this class would be fantastic for Saxton Hale

Really now? huh... i could try to put it in as a OC hale (if people want it in that is)

[Knux]

Doesn't seem like a bad idea, Zard. But I still think that with some tweaks, it could be a pretty good class.

[Zard1084]

Doesn't seem like a bad idea, Zard. But I still think that with some tweaks, it could be a pretty good class.

oh cool! also i just noticed this... people see a lot of potential in me to do great things.

[ice]

On the subject of Zard, I made a compatable version for CSCC and as far as dodging goes, his thunder attack was fairly easy to sidestep with both forms (Then again my class has a higher strafe then forward movement) All I can say is reduce the number of shots to about 3 at a time because as it stands now, the main is instant death if you fire it point blank, as for the rest of my opinions, as everybody else said, Knux and Vis are pretty fun to play as, and idk why but I personally like Nature's wonder, probobly due to it being a good blocker class (Now that Sergio's gone) though the alt seems a bit powerful

Edit: Why is it always that EVERY SINGLE CLASS that uses the roll skin have to be so irritating