Cutstuff Community Classes Contest #2

[Ceridran]

A quick reminder that low attack power is not an Achilles' Heel. Fine. Gameplay weakness. But if you think of it as what an Achilles' Heel should be, it's a vulnerability.

Just remember the themes before you place your votes that don't really change much.

Also..

(click to show/hide)

[01:58:59] hoopsandyoyofan26: zard and jax need to have their definition of "weakness" adjusted
[02:00:13] hoopsandyoyofan26: melee only does not qualify for a weakness if your main attack is an inescapable ohko
[02:03:23] thunderman2212: Treo makes me slightly confused
[02:03:33] thunderman2212: SnailTank makes me even more confused
[02:04:01] thunderman2212: Knux had the arrows thing which was pretty neato
[02:05:14] thunderman2212: Jax gets points for making the suplex "animation" work properly
[02:06:01] hoopsandyoyofan26: no
[02:06:20] jaxof7: Fuck you Gummy
[02:06:39] hoopsandyoyofan26: I dont care if you make your class puke 3d rainbows and glitter, if your main is an inescapable ohko your class is flawed as hell
[02:06:50] Hilman170499: What I'm worried about Tank Snail is whether Ballistic Mucus is so strong, the speed and jump don't even compensate.
[02:07:31] lord_rozark: did any class exist where you could only kill it on one frame
[02:07:40] lord_rozark: darn
[02:07:50] jaxof7: It's a charged up melee with a whiff
[02:08:00] lord_rozark: having a class that could only die if he's hit while jumping (in one hit) would've been silly
[02:08:01] jaxof7: On a class slower than average
[02:08:24] hoopsandyoyofan26: >slower than average
[02:08:29] hoopsandyoyofan26: >impossible to get away
[02:09:31] hoopsandyoyofan26: yes that 70 damage inescapable melee sure is a weakness
[02:12:07] Inonigiri Aizawa: you could just shoot and run away from the thing that's slower than you and bound to melee
[02:12:26] hoopsandyoyofan26: you cant though
[02:12:39] thunderman2212: He dashes at you before he grabs
[02:12:51] thunderman2212: At about Quickman (pre-boost) speed
[02:13:20] hoopsandyoyofan26: he also has incredibly high health
[02:14:31] thunderman2212: Also the AoE EXPLOSION at the end is a bit much on top of a bit much
[02:14:34] thunderman2212: Seriously he hits like a truck and a half and is surprisingly easy to get the first hit with
[02:14:34] thunderman2212: Also WHY CAN HE FLY
[02:16:53] Hilman170499: Who? Snail?
[02:16:58] hoopsandyoyofan26: because that's his weakness
[02:17:14] Hilman170499: His weakness is jump, speed and overheating.
[02:17:45] hoopsandyoyofan26: his weakness is being useless
[02:17:50] thunderman2212: No
[02:17:56] thunderman2212: I was referring to FLYING ZANGIEF

[Davregis]

Jax needs a medal because Zangief is the best class.

seconded

[Gummywormz]

I disagree.

Zangief may be fun to play as and have fancy ACS animations, but he has an inescapable 2HKO (sometimes even an OHKO). He can dash rather far and at a great speed. There is little cooldown between attacks, and he has decent base speed and armor. If you try to sneak up on him during a throw, you get hit with an 80 damage explosion. Also he can fly. Only Zard and Juri have any chance against him, and those classes are also broken (Juri is only slightly OP, Zard however...). Zangief should not be considered for first place. Viz and Knux are the only good classes here, though they don't seem to have much of a "heel".

[Zard1084]

huh..... i guess i made my class op? or is my main attack hard to avoid? i could have sworn i made the hit boxs for the main attack smaller then what it looks like....

[Celebi]

Hey, if you're going to judge things based on the damages, you're not doing a very good job.

Lets do an example.  If Zard's lightning bolts did 1 damage, is he still a bad class?  In my eyes yes, because he still has no weakness that I can obviously see.  You should be looking at the gameplay of the character and see if they are FUN and have an OBVIOUS weakness.  The fact that several people chose to do slow/melee + whatever classes is pretty much making it a little easier for Zangief to overpower them.  That is his he works, his close range skills are simply amazing, but he obviously has a projectile weakness.  He can try to get in close with his suplex charge, but if he misses that, he is left open for quite some time.  Remember the rules of this contest? "Make a powerful class that has a very obvious gameplay weakness!"

-Treo, unsure what his weakness is, seems to be the slow but powerful route.

-TankSnail, once again same route.

-Awadphec, a glass slightly speedy class, seems to be able to only charge ammo when sitting still.  Doesn't really seem like much of a gameplay weakness?

-Viz, Vel'Koz was here, a slow glass class with a teleporting thing.  Breaks on some maps and can put you in some unreachable locations.  

-Tsuyoi, a slow sturdy full melee class.  There isn't much to say, he has no power and can't accomplish much on his own.  The jump kick idea is neat, to bad its buggy and hurts himself, even when it hits.  He would of better been off being a quick durable guy with melee attacks that damage him if he misses.

-Knux, a slow, high jumping, sturdy class with the gameplay weakness of all his attacks being able to hurt himself.  He has a variety of ways of keeping away from people, which he wants to do, otherwise he'll hurt himself.

-Nature's Wonder, a slowish, proto armor DEER.  Has a variety of positions it can defend itself with crystals, though the diamond formation doesn't seem to work.  Its altfire crystal missile, can be rather unreliable at times when hitting certain angles.  Unsure what his gameplay weakness is.

-Zard, a normal speed?, sturdy+ armor class with dumb amounts of fire power.  I am highly unsure what his gameplay weakness is. (Massive weaknesses to fire and stones don't really count AND resistances to electric and ice)

-Zangief, a slow, toad armor class with powerful close range grabs.  He has the ability to close the gap with his charging suplex, but can suffer greatly if he misses any of his grabs.  Altfire does a double liaret to do some simple damage and protect him from anything.  (Except his own grabs haha!)  His flying suplex allows him to attempt to reach people high up and is only able to grab people who are in the air.  Zangief's gameplay weakness is he is full on short range melee and can easily be overcome with projectiles and people simply running away from him.

[diego58]

I join it!!!!
is good time for classes

[Ceridran]

These are my own opinions on each the class, though I'm mostly just describing them.

EDIT:
what

you call those opinions/reviews? you're just describing the classes

[xColdxFusionx]

My thoughts about the classes:

Treo: What the hell is Treo's weakness? Also his second bar recharges way too fast; you can just tees for days.
TankSnail: He's completely gimped by his weakness. It's also really gimmicky and not very well executed imo. Alas, it's actually one of the few actually noticeable weaknesses.
Knux: Bubble jousting. Bubble arrows. Bubble mines. He's all around fun, but his weakness isn't nearly as noticeable as it should be.
Tsuyoi: Another class with a weakness which gimps him to death. He needs to be able to hit things...
Vis: ...OK, the functioning LeBlanc jump scores you some points imo. And you can easily tell what this class's weakness is supposed to be.
Awadphec: More melee classes! ...Standing still for longer than a few seconds is kind of a death sentence in this game, especially on a close-range class, and I'm not entirely sure the attacks really justify it.
Crystal Maiden Deer: ...The second crystal wall should have
Zangief: Jax gets points for spectacular animations and actually having a noticeable weakness of melee + self-stun, then loses them for other questionable design decisions. Seriously, 70-damage AoE Atomic Buster that renders him basically untouchable? Mad sprint that moves at Chargeman speed for 30 damage and disorientation? Flying Zangief?
Zard: ...Patchouli taught me the hard way that "find cover" isn't exactly a viable answer to the question "how do I dodge this attack?". Let's just leave it at that.

And finally the explanation that no one was really looking for:

Juri: Gummy you messed up the painstates how could you. I do admit that the Paranoia Creepers ended up being on the silly side, though that was partly because the idea came to me halfway through development. Basically, the class's weakness was supposed to be that she would have to be in battle a lot to keep herself from taking extra damage and she had to set up her big damage attacks by stacking roaches on people. Of course, the roaches ended up being the most obnoxious thing in the universe. The roaches were originally supposed to fly at targets and boomerang back after a few seconds, but I had the idea of homing search snakes and I couldn't pass it up...

[Ukiyama]

-Nature's Wonder, a slowish, proto armor DEER.  Has a variety of positions it can defend itself with crystals, though the diamond formation doesn't seem to work.  Its altfire crystal missile, can be rather unreliable at times when hitting certain angles.  Unsure what his gameplay weakness is.

I would like to point out that offline, everything works correctly, never got a chance to get a test of my class online, and couple issues cropped up. Probably pretty easy fixes for all of them as well.

[Ceridran]

Awadphec: More melee classes! ...Standing still for longer than a few seconds is kind of a death sentence in this game, especially on a close-range class, and I'm not entirely sure the attacks really justify it.

>a melee class

oh

[Gummywormz]

Hey, if you're going to judge things based on the damages, you're not doing a very good job.

Except damage is not the only issue. You can't even do anything to damage him while he is grabbing you. He is not open enough after a successful throw to counter him. His dash is quick and can cover a decent amount of distance. If he threw you farther away from him, he wouldn't be so bad, but in his current state, with slow classes or not he is an issue. Also he can fly.

Juri: Gummy you messed up the painstates how could you.

I fixed it...

Treo: As others have said, I'm not sure what his weakness is. His main fire can be charged to sap more health and has an arc, but his alt fire is an infinite-range attack that you can guide easily. He can also plant exploding trees because why not. His abilities don't seem to work well together. It's like they are there because they can be.

Tank Snail: This one is a bit odd. He overheats way too easily and can't do anything of value when he does. Yet, his main fire takes away over 50% of your health and slows you down. This makes it really easy to land another hit. The mucus left on the ground also doesn't seem to do anything.

Knux: This class is pretty decent. His weakness is well integrated, but it doesn't really affect him too badly a lot of the time (especially since you can just push people away).

Tsuyoi: Yes, he is useless. I thought I made it so you can't outpace your fist, but I guess that didn't work out. I made him too weak, because I thought the other entries would be more like Awadphec and Tank Snail. He for sure needs a range buff, and the self-damage on the jump kick should be removed (the stun would be kept though).

Viz: His weakness is that he is short range and has low health. However, his rate of fire combined with the ability to blind people kind of nullifies this. Other than that he is ok.

Juri: The weakness here is that you have to keep hitting players to not die. However, your rate of fire, ammo regen rate, and the homing ability of your roaches makes it impossible not to hit anyone. The paranoia debuffs are too strong and are easily stacked, to the point where a single altfire after 3 roach hits (which isn't hard to do at all, especially considering the roaches can jump) is instant death even to the more bulkier classes. Your own paranoia generates far too slowly. I never had a single situation where paranoia stacks on myself killed me, especially considering one hit removes all your paranoia, no matter the level you are at. Make the roaches not homing, speed up the paranoia stack rate, and make it so that one hit clears only 1 level of paranoia.

Awadphec: As mentioned, standing still to regenerate ammo just ruins this class, especially combined with the fact you have to charge and stand still to fire. Glass health tops this one off to be terrible.

Ukiyama / Deer: This class is pretty unconventional. The crystals don't cause hit stun, which is a huge problem especially with Zangief running around. The alt may look useful, however it summons the crystal from the top of the skybox. This means on some stages it takes far too long to fall down to be really useful.(MM2DW1, anyone?)

Zard: His amazing weakness is the ability to fire 50 homing projectiles at once...in a single shot. But don't worry, he has an insane rate of fire and ammo so he can send 500 more out very easily. To top this one off, you have 2 separate ammo bars, so you can still spam your not ice wave while waiting for your electricity to regenerate.

[Ceridran]

related chatlogs

bolded things that should be noticed

obviously, mostly concering Zangief as usual

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Thunderono: so I went to play the horse race competition last night
holy zangief
Ceridran: ?
Thunderono: It's just nothing but zangief
Thunderono: good god
Ceridran: I know right
Thunderono: I couldn't really test any class out until only spikeboy and I remained in the server
Ceridran: Nobody knew that Nature's Wonder's items could be switched because nobody wanted to experiment and were too busy playing Zangief
Ceridran: the item switch and activation changes the crystal wall formations
Thunderono: I never figured out what the item did
Thunderono: Like I'd just sit there spamming it like "WHY IS THIS USELESS"
Ceridran: Yeah, just changes crystal formations. There's the ones that go like |, then the _, and then there's this
Ceridran: other one
Ceridran: that's broken
Thunderono: Juri probably had my favorite playstyle but the paranoia was clunky
Ceridran: as my class most people took way too long to figure out they had to stand still to regen more than 1/4 of the ammo
Ceridran: wow guys
Thunderono: I figured it out after you posted about it
Thunderono: was the weapon select charging sound intentional
Ceridran: nio
Ceridran: that was never there
Thunderono: okay
Ceridran: not originally
Thunderono: and then there's just ZARD
Ceridran: aaa
Ceridran: I do like how his altfire works though
Thunderono: I first really saw him shine in metal man's stage to boot
Ceridran: Aside from the fact it's double ice wave
Ceridran: when you hit altfire again the shards come running right back
Thunderono: And that was just arg LET'S FILL ALL OF THE MAP WITH BALLS
Ceridran: I found that cool but he's still anhkajdfnh,a
Ceridran: also yeah he lacks a gameplay weakness
Thunderono: and then in the thread zard's just kind of like "What do you mean it's OP"
Ceridran: hey I thought my class was OP
Ceridran: I balanced it on easy bots
Ceridran: though maybe they were actually on nightmare
Thunderono: You don't ever make somebody sit still to get ammo for a charge attack that makes them sit still
Thunderono: Just base all that shit on the assumption that every enemy has access to a charged atomic fire
Ceridran: I was pretty sure the heel had to be real crippling
Ceridran: not Tsuyoi levels of crippling
Thunderono: Well a lot of people did
You need to keep in mind that it still needs to be viable with a weakness
Thunderono: It's like a sniper rifle
Thunderono: One shot and no close range
Thunderono: But from afar it rapes face
Ceridran: Really that's where Awadphec always excelled
Ceridran: And standing still gives you way better aim
Ceridran: take a moment just sit right there
Ceridran: punch them in the face
Ceridran: with a ranged attack
Thunderono: And also gives the enemy a perfect opportunity to move and unload
Thunderono: And especially with zangief running around you need to move
Ceridran: the charge attacks are kind of situational
Ceridran: yeah, though you can always seem to keep a balance
Thunderono: also fucking zangief
Thunderono: what
Thunderono: the
Thunderono: hell
Ceridran: at least I've managed
Ceridran: I just hate Zangief
Ceridran: Do you know that
Thunderono: who thought zangief was a good idea
Thunderono: because
Thunderono: it is not
Ceridran: he can walk through QUICKBEAMS with his altfire?
Thunderono: did you know he can fucking lock people down
Ceridran: yeah
Thunderono: it's obnoxious as shit
Ceridran: They said Chargeman was OP because he can be invulnerable for a short time
Thunderono: especially considering his dash
Ceridran: pff
Ceridran: and nobody called this guy OP?
Ceridran: Chargeman has way less range than Zangief
Thunderono: Zangief is chargeman on drugs
Ceridran: They say Charge is OP but they say
Ceridran: melee balances zangief
Thunderono: charge has a poor man's melee
Ceridran: everyone calls that altfire of Charge's OP because it's probably ohko or soemthing
Ceridran: but
Ceridran: have they even tried hitting with it
Ceridran: guys please
Ceridran: I'm drowning in my tears
Thunderono: It's obnoxious as shit to me because I main oil
Thunderono: A lot
Thunderono: And michael mains charge
Thunderono: A lot
Ceridran: we should probably post a log of this in the contest thread just to show how biased everyone is
Ceridran: about Zangief
Ceridran: he's fun I'l admit
Ceridran: I really like how Jax did this
Ceridran: but he's overpowered and has no clear weakness
Ceridran: it's just kind of a issue but barely
Ceridran: he's slow but he's beefy and he can go really fast and quickly transition to a strong attack
Ceridran: and then do ANOTHER really strong attack
Ceridran: and again
Ceridran: he can block projectiles
Thunderono: His issue is slow speed
But the dash counteracts it
Ceridran: what heel
Ceridran: the block also counteracts it
Thunderono: He has medium-high armor, 2hko, and a dash that counteracts his low speed
Ceridran: at least I tried to stick to the theme
Thunderono: and can lock people down
Thunderono: try again
Thunderono: I don't even know what zard's weakness was
Ceridran: Ice. Not a gameplay weakness.
Ceridran: .. was it Ice? I forget
Ceridran: but he had an elemental weakness
Thunderono: Fire and stone
Ceridran: everyone said it was ice, huh
Thunderono: But that's just a weakness in terms of damage
If I wanted that I'd go play YD classes
Thunderono: No he resists ice and elec to my knowledge
Ceridran: the theme specifically says obvious gameplay weakness
Ceridran: which Zangief also makes up for his
Ceridran: which HE SHOULDN'T
Ceridran: Tsuyoi has a dash but it's still not the most reliable one
Thunderono: A gameplay weakness is not supposed to be counteracted
Thunderono: Tsuyoi is bitch slap hard man right
Ceridran: I have to say Tsuyoi has some hidden viability but as it is it needs tons of reworking
Thunderono: It's like sub-spun up needle man speed and melee restriction
Ceridran: Remove the 4 punch limit on successful hit and make it do more damage, make the speed increase linger and give movespeed increase on hit too
Ceridran: a snowball
Thunderono: And the consecutive bitch slap is weird
Ceridran: It's a cool idea but it needs to linger
Ceridran: so how about Knux
Thunderono: meh
well made but not fun
Thunderono: I didn't really enjoy it
Ceridran: He wouldn't be #1 on my top 3 maybe if some other classes followed the theme
Ceridran: properly
Ceridran: Viz's speed and ammo are his weaknesses but
Thunderono: I liked juri as a regular class
I kind of disregarded the theme if the class was just well made
Ceridran: He can just warp forward and warp back and I consider that way more mobile than most
Ceridran: plus his ammo doesn't feel like an issue
Ceridran: regenerates slowly but you only run out when you use the teleport like
Ceridran: 6 times
Thunderono: I liked treo too
Ceridran: He just lacked a gameplay weakness
Thunderono: It was a little weird with the weapons but it was a fun class
Ceridran: I found it fun too
Ceridran: especially the altfire
Thunderono: I like him the same way I liked juri
Thunderono: I just had to set aside the theme to enjoy it
Ceridran: the altfire follows your crosshair so accurately it's crazy
Thunderono: I can't enjoy zard or zangief because that's just adasd
Ceridran: Just because one enjoys a class
Ceridran: doesn't mean it wins the contest
Thunderono: Also I never really got the alt to work too well beause most of the maps I played him on were small
Read: Toad man
Thunderono: I usually charge mainfired
Thunderono: And it almost saved me from a zangief once
Ceridran: who we talking about again?
Thunderono: Treo
Ceridran: Ah
Ceridran: yeah if you use the seed just right you can have health come to you as you're in the middle of a fatal spinning piledriver
Ceridran: and escape with a sliver that turns into 50% of your HP
Ceridran: definitely could've done very well in a different category but I put Treo aside
Thunderono: I could appreciate the health sap mechanic and I honestly wish more people did stuff like that

[Gummywormz]

As a side note, if you're doing another contest, use something like zipdiff to point out differences between archives (especially considering we're all susposed to use the template).

[Knux]

Bwoah shit, this got going all of a sudden. I almost didn't notice it, but I'll try out the file later.

[Zard1084]

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Thunderono: and then there's just ZARD
Ceridran: aaa
Ceridran: I do like how his altfire works though
Thunderono: I first really saw him shine in metal man's stage to boot
Ceridran: Aside from the fact it's double ice wave
Ceridran: when you hit altfire again the shards come running right back
Thunderono: And that was just arg LET'S FILL ALL OF THE MAP WITH BALLS
Ceridran: I found that cool but he's still anhkajdfnh,a
Ceridran: also yeah he lacks a gameplay weakness
Thunderono: and then in the thread zard's just kind of like "What do you mean it's OP"

i was more or less asking how is my class OP? but after reading this i found my answer....