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Quote from: "Bikdark"Your "flight" path is already predefined when using Super Adapter, and your airtime is severely limited.Not really. Super Adaptor can reach a lot of heights and the speed of your movement allows you to dodge trouble, get out of reach. And it's infinite to boost. You get a powerful homing weapon with it to boot.Super Adapter is a single boost that just BARELY gets you from bliz/wave platform in MM7DW4 to the one above. Treble Boost is FLIGHT. FLIGHT will get you anywhere not physically blocked out. Treble is superior to Super Adapter in terms of mobility.Ammo is only a minor inconvenience, since using a W tank or grabbing Treble Boost again will completely refill your ammo. Small weapon energies take 5 to fully restore, and large ones will take 2.The actual homing fist is hardly worth mentioning when treble boost gives you AMAZING disengage on the spot.Quote from: "Bikdark"With Treble Boost, you have large amount of FREE flight time that is only limited by how much ammo you can pick up. Think Rush Jet is infuriating? Cool, now take that and amplify it tenfold.And just dodging things isn't going to net you any frags. Treble Boost is only really capable of being used for mobility or fighting. It does not have enough ammo for both. And it's only in a few maps as it is. Few of which are already flying-centric, like Wind and has flying counter weapons.Now see, you're only looking at Treble Boost from an offensive point of view. What you're not looking at is the fact that disengage is extremely powerful in this game. By disengage, I mean the ability to effectively stop a fight you're involved in from occurring. Want to know it's so good? Because this game is ALL projectiles. Backpedaling while munching hp pellets is not something you can stop, no matter how good you are. This is why Skull barrier is SO good right now. Immediate disengage that is impossible to re-engage on for the next few seconds + ammo refill time. Treble boost gives you the next best thing under invincibility - the ability to force your opponent into aiming in a third dimension. Shooting people in the air in this game is NOT easy, and it never will be. Again, this is because of the game being projectile-centric. You simply turn on Treble Boost to disengage, switch weapons when you want to turn it off. It gives you complete control of the game. And just because it's "only in a few maps as it is", doesn't mean it can't be improperly implemented.
Your "flight" path is already predefined when using Super Adapter, and your airtime is severely limited.
With Treble Boost, you have large amount of FREE flight time that is only limited by how much ammo you can pick up. Think Rush Jet is infuriating? Cool, now take that and amplify it tenfold.
And just because it's "only in a few maps as it is", doesn't mean it can't be improperly implemented.
Shooting people in the air in this game is NOT easy, and it never will be.
Super Adapter is a single boost that just BARELY gets you from bliz/wave platform in MM7DW4 to the one above. Treble Boost is FLIGHT. FLIGHT will get you anywhere not physically blocked out. Treble is superior to Super Adapter in terms of mobility.
Treble boost gives you the next best thing under invincibility - the ability to force your opponent into aiming in a third dimension. Shooting people in the air in this game is NOT easy, and it never will be. Again, this is because of the game being projectile-centric. You simply turn on Treble Boost to disengage, switch weapons when you want to turn it off. It gives you complete control of the game.
...And all you can use is the world's shittiest spread buster while everyone else has weapons that aren't terrible.Stop looking at it from an offensive point of view. Treble boost gives you massive amounts of game control if you know that it's defensive, not offensive.People who are actually good at the game can lead their shots Sorry, but this argument is not applicable in this game. Aiming slow projectiles vertically AND horizontally at the same time is simply not going to happen. You fail to realize that adding a third dimension to how someone must aim is EXTREMELY powerful.and/or use Proto Buster/Magnet Missile/Dive Missile to mitigate the distance issueor use Astro Crush/Lightning Bolt to pick you out of the airor use Gravity Hold to fuck your day up completely"If a player is good, they'll hit someone in the air"If a player is good, they won't be stupid enough to let magnets hit them, or use treble boost while an enemy has Ghold. The argument works both ways, you know.Weapons to deal with Treble BoostStarman has Ghold (difficult to obtain, mitigated by not being an idiot), Astro (Effectiveness debatable, difficult to obtain), and Magnet (Effectiveness debatable) Knight has Rain Flush (not able to kill directly, small chip damage at best)Wind has Centaur (chip damage, difficult to obtain?) and Magnet. Good luck with the rest lmaoMM7DW4 has Magnet, Rain, CentaurAstro2 has Ghold and AstroDynamo has Lightning Bolt (effectiveness debatable)MMBdw1 has Lightning BoltI'm still not sure I see the issue here. Sure, it can be annoying, but I'd hardly consider it "overpowered."If you think easy disengage and hella game control ISN'T overpowered, you clearly have not played this game enough
Quote from: "Bikdark"Super Adapter is a single boost that just BARELY gets you from bliz/wave platform in MM7DW4 to the one above. Treble Boost is FLIGHT. FLIGHT will get you anywhere not physically blocked out. Treble is superior to Super Adapter in terms of mobility.You completely underestimate the power of Super Adaptors mobility. The fact it's infinite far exceeds anything you can do with Treble Boost. What in the hell are you talking about? It's a once per jump, small boost. If you're referring to the fact that it's ammoless, please note that Wtanks and ammo are easily available on ANY map, as well as simply grabbing another treble boost.Looks like you're overestimating it. Quote from: "Bikdark"Treble boost gives you the next best thing under invincibility - the ability to force your opponent into aiming in a third dimension. Shooting people in the air in this game is NOT easy, and it never will be. Again, this is because of the game being projectile-centric. You simply turn on Treble Boost to disengage, switch weapons when you want to turn it off. It gives you complete control of the game. Just having Treble Boost alone is not complete control. If you can't do anything with said control, then it isn't doing much in your favor. And this is an FPS game. You already aim at people on the "third dimension" on ledges, in the air, below you.Treble boost nets you the ability to fight when YOU want, not when your enemy wants. If you're low hp or not stacked with weapons, you can throw treble boost on to disengage ezpz. Treble boost ALONE will not win a game, but neither will any other weapon (debatable), so you cannot use that as an argument. Ah, but if people are on ledges or you yourself are on a ledge, is their vertical position changing much? No, it is not. With flight, you can freely change your vertical position, rather than be limited to your easily predictable jump.
Stop looking at it from an offensive point of view. Treble boost gives you massive amounts of game control if you know that it's defensive, not offensive.The reason we're bringing up the offensive point of view is that when you're on the defensive, you're not helping your own cause. As much as semi-reliable disengage is good for saving your ass and resetting the playing field, the game typically relies on your ability to kill people to score points. And if you're running away to go scrounge up health pellets, you're not killing people. A good offense is just as important as a good defense, which is why weapons with OHK and 2HK potential, no matter how tricky or time-consuming they are to use properly, are so damned powerful. You can disengage all you want, but you're never going to win if you can't win a fight.Sorry, but this argument is not applicable in this game. Aiming slow projectiles vertically AND horizontally at the same time is simply not going to happen. You fail to realize that adding a third dimension to how someone must aim is EXTREMELY powerful.Leading shots in this game is difficult, but not impossible. Any weapon with a projectile speed of ~40 or 50+ is tricky to react to in a typical fight scenario. Besides, the rest of your argument basically boils down to "I don't know how to move my mouse up, therefore flight should be banned." "If a player is good, they'll hit someone in the air"If a player is good, they won't be stupid enough to let magnets hit them, or use treble boost while an enemy has Ghold. The argument works both ways, you know.If a player is good, they'll be able to use Magnet Missile in a way that compensates for nearby terrain and movement, or trick the enemy into thinking flying away is a safe option. The argument works both ways, you know.Weapons to deal with Treble BoostStarman has Ghold (difficult to obtain, mitigated by not being an idiot), Astro (Effectiveness debatable, difficult to obtain), and Magnet (Effectiveness debatable) Knight has Rain Flush (not able to kill directly, small chip damage at best)Wind has Centaur (chip damage, difficult to obtain?) and Magnet. Good luck with the rest lmaoMM7DW4 has Magnet, Rain, CentaurAstro2 has Ghold and AstroDynamo has Lightning Bolt (effectiveness debatable)MMBdw1 has Lightning BoltI believe Knight also has Proto Buster, AKA the fastest shot in the game barring IG Metal Blade. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one.Also, Wind and Dynamo are incredibly claustrophobic to the point where being able to fly does pretty much jack crap in most parts of the map.Also, if Lightning Bolt isn't effective, I don't know what is. That thing is hell to try and dodge.If you think easy disengage and hella game control ISN'T overpowered, you clearly have not played this game enoughAgain, disengage is strong, but it can be countered and if you're relying on it you're doing it wrong.
Quote from: "Bikdark"Stop looking at it from an offensive point of view. Treble boost gives you massive amounts of game control if you know that it's defensive, not offensive.The reason we're bringing up the offensive point of view is that when you're on the defensive, you're not helping your own cause. As much as semi-reliable disengage is good for saving your ass and resetting the playing field, the game typically relies on your ability to kill people to score points. And if you're running away to go scrounge up health pellets, you're not killing people. A good offense is just as important as a good defense, which is why weapons with OHK and 2HK potential, no matter how tricky or time-consuming they are to use properly, are so damned powerful. You can disengage all you want, but you're never going to win if you can't win a fight.Stop assuming that the person using Treble Boost is bad at the game. You use Treble Boost to leave a fight that's disadvantageous. If you can't lose a fight, you can't lose the game. Sorry, but this argument is not applicable in this game. Aiming slow projectiles vertically AND horizontally at the same time is simply not going to happen. You fail to realize that adding a third dimension to how someone must aim is EXTREMELY powerful.Leading shots in this game is difficult, but not impossible. Any weapon with a projectile speed of ~40 or 50+ is tricky to react to in a typical fight scenario. Besides, the rest of your argument basically boils down to "I don't know how to move my mouse up, therefore flight should be banned." SUCH STRAWMAN WOWYou don't understand that static vertical position != changing vertical position. Hitting someone on a ledge above you is easy, because they're keeping a constant vertical position that is easily predictable. What you're not getting is that if someone can EASILY change their vertical position at will, they will be 5 times as hard to hit compared to someone on a ledge above you, or below you. "If a player is good, they'll hit someone in the air"If a player is good, they won't be stupid enough to let magnets hit them, or use treble boost while an enemy has Ghold. The argument works both ways, you know.If a player is good, they'll be able to use Magnet Missile in a way that compensates for nearby terrain and movement, or trick the enemy into thinking flying away is a safe option. The argument works both ways, you know.No response to this. Further increasing either player's skill will not lead to anything.Weapons to deal with Treble BoostStarman has Ghold (difficult to obtain, mitigated by not being an idiot), Astro (Effectiveness debatable, difficult to obtain), and Magnet (Effectiveness debatable) Knight has Rain Flush (not able to kill directly, small chip damage at best)Wind has Centaur (chip damage, difficult to obtain?) and Magnet. Good luck with the rest lmaoMM7DW4 has Magnet, Rain, CentaurAstro2 has Ghold and AstroDynamo has Lightning Bolt (effectiveness debatable)MMBdw1 has Lightning BoltI believe Knight also has Proto Buster, AKA the fastest shot in the game barring IG Metal Blade. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one.Also, Wind and Dynamo are incredibly claustrophobic to the point where being able to fly does pretty much jack crap in most parts of the map.Also, if Lightning Bolt isn't effective, I don't know what is. That thing is hell to try and dodge.No, knight doesn't have proto buster. On Windman, a player can traverse the outsides of the rooms as well with flight, you know. Dynamo isn't as cramped as you think. The moving floor sections are great spots to abuse Treble Boost. If you think easy disengage and hella game control ISN'T overpowered, you clearly have not played this game enoughAgain, disengage is strong, but if you're completely relying on it you're doing it wrong.Uh, what? Doing WHAT wrong? If you have powerful disengage then you have an immediate handle on the game's flow. "If you rely entirely on aim you're doing it wrong.""If you rely entirely on map control you're doing it wrong.""If you rely on anything you're doing it wrong."We call these "playstyles"
Stop looking at it from an offensive point of view. Treble boost gives you massive amounts of game control if you know that it's defensive, not offensive.The reason we're bringing up the offensive point of view is that when you're on the defensive, you're not helping your own cause. As much as semi-reliable disengage is good for saving your ass and resetting the playing field, the game typically relies on your ability to kill people to score points. And if you're running away to go scrounge up health pellets, you're not killing people. A good offense is just as important as a good defense, which is why weapons with OHK and 2HK potential, no matter how tricky or time-consuming they are to use properly, are so damned powerful. You can disengage all you want, but you're never going to win if you can't win a fight.Stop assuming that the person using Treble Boost is bad at the game. You use Treble Boost to leave a fight that's disadvantageous. If you can't lose a fight, you can't lose the game. Sorry, but this argument is not applicable in this game. Aiming slow projectiles vertically AND horizontally at the same time is simply not going to happen. You fail to realize that adding a third dimension to how someone must aim is EXTREMELY powerful.Leading shots in this game is difficult, but not impossible. Any weapon with a projectile speed of ~40 or 50+ is tricky to react to in a typical fight scenario. Besides, the rest of your argument basically boils down to "I don't know how to move my mouse up, therefore flight should be banned." SUCH STRAWMAN WOWYou don't understand that static vertical position != changing vertical position. Hitting someone on a ledge above you is easy, because they're keeping a constant vertical position that is easily predictable. What you're not getting is that if someone can EASILY change their vertical position at will, they will be 5 times as hard to hit compared to someone on a ledge above you, or below you. "If a player is good, they'll hit someone in the air"If a player is good, they won't be stupid enough to let magnets hit them, or use treble boost while an enemy has Ghold. The argument works both ways, you know.If a player is good, they'll be able to use Magnet Missile in a way that compensates for nearby terrain and movement, or trick the enemy into thinking flying away is a safe option. The argument works both ways, you know.No response to this. Further increasing either player's skill will not lead to anything.Weapons to deal with Treble BoostStarman has Ghold (difficult to obtain, mitigated by not being an idiot), Astro (Effectiveness debatable, difficult to obtain), and Magnet (Effectiveness debatable) Knight has Rain Flush (not able to kill directly, small chip damage at best)Wind has Centaur (chip damage, difficult to obtain?) and Magnet. Good luck with the rest lmaoMM7DW4 has Magnet, Rain, CentaurAstro2 has Ghold and AstroDynamo has Lightning Bolt (effectiveness debatable)MMBdw1 has Lightning BoltI believe Knight also has Proto Buster, AKA the fastest shot in the game barring IG Metal Blade. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one.Also, Wind and Dynamo are incredibly claustrophobic to the point where being able to fly does pretty much jack crap in most parts of the map.Also, if Lightning Bolt isn't effective, I don't know what is. That thing is hell to try and dodge.No, knight doesn't have proto buster. On Windman, a player can traverse the outsides of the rooms as well with flight, you know. Dynamo isn't as cramped as you think. The moving floor sections are great spots to abuse Treble Boost. If you think easy disengage and hella game control ISN'T overpowered, you clearly have not played this game enoughAgain, disengage is strong, but if you're completely relying on it you're doing it wrong.Uh, what? Doing WHAT wrong? If you have powerful disengage then you have an immediate handle on the game's flow. "If you rely entirely on aim you're doing it wrong.""If you rely entirely on map control you're doing it wrong.""If you rely on anything you're doing it wrong."We call these "playstyles"
The more I keep reading the back and forth on this the more holes keep getting punched in Bik's argument.
