MM8BDM v4a Mapping Feedback

[Shade Guy]

Hm? I only remember commenting on the Flash Stopper area because at one point during development it was possible to strafejump to the top of the slope, defeating the purpose of the one-way path.

The best changes to this map are the alterations to the crushers. Giving them a 16-height step instead of a 32-height step makes traversing the crushers a lot safer. I recall in TLMS on the old MM4DUS that one team would always have control of the outside area, and the other would have control of the Ring Boomerang area. The crushers, with their 32-height step, would cause extreme congestion and usually force the teams to only converge at where Flame Blast is currently (used to be Napalm Bomb). Making the crushers safer to traverse, along with the removal of one of the crushers outside (now guards a big health) and the addition of the one way sloped path allows teams to comfortably approach one another from more areas, which is very good.

The new area is fine on its own, though it's worth noting that the map's congestion issues were already solved by the layout edits to existing areas, and would remain solved with or without the new area. So having it there may not entirely be necessary.

[LlamaHombre]

Gonna have to agree with Kapus in that Ring Boomerang is way too much on MM4DUS in particular.

Other than that, I really don't have any complaints. I like the new room, and while I can understand why someone would think the decor area is playable, I had to have someone tell me about that first for me to even see it.

[Legtendga]

All and all, I really like the map changes as well. That one way ramp and the whole new room do feel a bit redundant with the crushers as they are now, but all and all, it's a good change.

[Ivory]

So my current changes:

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Shifted the crusher back to its old location pre v4. Still has a big health under it, but there are the safe side paths to ignore it. But the crusher path does allow you to simply run up and get a big health, while the side ones require a bit of jumping. It mostly there again to re-provide temporary cover to the outside.

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The upper area is like pre-v4. No one way ramp, no side area. The one way drop back to the middle still exists though, otherwise it would of gone back to the temporary dead-end area that I was trying to get rid of. Flash Stopper is also now in said pit. Ignore Ring Boomerang, the final map will probably get rid of it, but for now I swapped positions with Gemini Laser.

So my next questions are. What to do with the new area? Some people like it, others do not.
The other question is about the super arm area, I haven't really heard many complaints about that part being added. Most of the change complaints were the old Flash Stopper area and the entirely new side route.

[Magnet Dood]

Pre-V3 MM1FIR review goooooooooooooooo

MM4DUS was always a popular choice for smaller matches. The powerful weapons littered throughout the map could crush opposition in its tight corners- hopefully before the unrelenting crushers got you first. As a result I was a bit miffed, like others, when MM4DUS was announced as a changed map.

Luckily for those fearing change, the edits to this map were quite minimal. Little escape routes littered the map, allowing those in a pinch to duck out from enemy fire. Despite these changes to improve the flow, the map still retained its cramped and claustrophobic feeling, something I appreciated. However, this was not present in perhaps the most controversial addition to the new MM4DUS- the new room to the north.

Now, to be honest, I'm in favor of an addition to connect the parts that the new room connects. The idea is fine; it's the execution that I'm opposed to. The room fills you with a general feeling of emptiness. It's open and bare, with a lone crusher filling the blank and boring blue room. Thunder Bolt probably shouldn't be on the map- it overshadows Dust Crusher, the stage's weapon, with its faster speed and ability to split sideways instead of into four, which is more useful in the cramped hallways of MM4DUS. Hard Knuckle is a real killer in this map, no doubt, but having it shoved in the back being guarded by a crusher over a pit dissuades people from getting it. (A side note- what's up with Hard Knuckle being the "not-worth-it weapon of the week" in this expansion? MM4DUS and MMWTDW2 put it behind a bunch of traps.) Energy Balancer is also there, but it feels kind of shoved in there as an excuse for the crusher to be present.

This is a violent break from the rest of the map's overall theme. Dust Man has always been cramped and close-quartered. Space is limited, so you have to make what you add to the map count. In this new area, it's the exact opposite. There are two weapons and an item in here just for the sake of being here, and even with these it still feels empty because of all the unused space.

If I had to propose a change to the map, I'd either "cramp it up", or scrap it all together and start again. By cramp it up, I mean lessen the space the player has to move around. All of Dust's other areas have some sort of element that reduces the playing space you think you have, and one of the most common ways of doing this in that map is lowering the ceiling. Do that, throw some junk piles in there, even add another crusher- just do something to make the player feel confined in some way. If you scrap it, I wouldn't mind another junk area being put in its place- that's my favorite part of the map.

The idea is definitely good, just work on the execution more.

[NemZ]

If you want the passage open so badly that you're adding a safe way around it, why bother with the crusher at all?  Much better to put the crushers in lower-traffic side passages rather than in the major choke points to begin with.

And did you miss my earlier request to see some work on MM3 skull castle interior, or am I just being ignored?  I really dislike that stage.  Even as small as it is I still get lost because everything except the tiny sewer room all looks the same and there's no point wandering around anyway because gameplay there revolves around charging into the crowd in one of the two rooms that everyone always ends up in and hoping to get a kill or two before you die, repeat.

[Ivory]

If you want the passage open so badly that you're adding a safe way around it, why bother with the crusher at all?  Much better to put the crushers in lower-traffic side passages rather than in the major choke points to begin with.

It mostly there again to re-provide temporary cover to the outside.

I already said why, it blocks fire traffic half of the time.

And did you miss my earlier request to see some work on MM3 skull castle interior, or am I just being ignored?

Noted, but as I said in the opening, the focus right now is on maps that already changed. I'd rather not have side suggestions at this time since it defeats the purpose of only focusing on one map at a time.

[Legtendga]

Please also note that I love MM3 Castle Interior as it is. Changes to it will likely be unessicary.
Anyway;

So my current changes:

(click to show/hide)

Shifted the crusher back to its old location pre v4. Still has a big health under it, but there are the safe side paths to ignore it. But the crusher path does allow you to simply run up and get a big health, while the side ones require a bit of jumping. It mostly there again to re-provide temporary cover to the outside.

I honestly liked the whole bit about the health being under an entirely optional crusher, but that one wasn't too aweful on old DustMan, so it's probably going to be okay now.

(click to show/hide)

The upper area is like pre-v4. No one way ramp, no side area. The one way drop back to the middle still exists though, otherwise it would of gone back to the temporary dead-end area that I was trying to get rid of. Flash Stopper is also now in said pit. Ignore Ring Boomerang, the final map will probably get rid of it, but for now I swapped positions with Gemini Laser.

Alright, I like the look of that already. Two things, though: is that a 1/16 or 1/32 step?   and:   Do you mean Ring Boomerang is lival to be off the map outright?

[Knux]

Honestly, the first screenshot looks better. The second one is just what v3b was, and the reason it got changed. The crusher with paths to the sides to avoid it look nice and blends in both v3b and v4 elements nicely. Though in actual combat, getting into those sides might be a little difficult.

[DrMario2]

Just a little suggestion...

Can Iceman's stage have a little Footholder area containing Thunder Beam and/or Yokublock area containing Fire Storm?

Just a little suggestion...

[PotatoStrike]

Another little suggestion...

Can Bubbleman's stage have an above-water part of the map?

Another little suggestion...

[Geno]

Hmm, someone mentioned MM3DW2.

I remember not too long ago, on an online match in that stage, that there was so many people, and that it was so cramped, that I could barely stay alive for 2 seconds before I was obliterated by a barrage of projectiles.

I say making it a little less cramped would be cool.

[NemZ]

I already said why, it blocks fire traffic half of the time.

...the focus right now is on maps that already changed. I'd rather not have side suggestions at this time since it defeats the purpose of only focusing on one map at a time.

Alright, sorry for starting a whole thing.  

Still, wouldn't a narrow opening always there provide MORE cover than a opening twice as big that is occationally half-blocked?

[Balrog]

Hmm, someone mentioned MM3DW2.

I remember not too long ago, on an online match in that stage, that there was so many people, and that it was so cramped, that I could barely stay alive for 2 seconds before I was obliterated by a barrage of projectiles.

I say making it a little less cramped would be cool.

Your match had too many people for that map. That's why mapvote exists. Not every map can be big enough for 64 players, because then they'd be too big for <20 players.

[Ivory]

I made Hard Man BIGGER. Cower in fear as map size creep continues to consume MM8BDM. Wahahaha~! The first map for v4b that actually gained some sort of size. Every other map lost size.

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...because that map really needed another way up to the ledge.

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So next map up for discussion is MM6WIN! Whoo!

First off: What happened to the pre-release v4 Wind Man? Even if the most of the dev team weren't entirely with me on that decision, I decided not to completely replace a small small sized map with a larger map, even if it was far closer to the NES stage, a wind tower. Instead I opted to fix the issue with the original map, mainly, the dead end area.

So what I'm asking is, what now? Is the map fine as is? Or should more be done with it. Could be looking at bringing back the original dead end area, but adding the side routes outside. Or maybe the third option entirely and rework the map as a compromise between the original and the unreleased map. Get rid of that back end entirely, but instead build a 3D Floor playable roof area to make it more like a tower.

Or something else entirely.