Class Based Modification vs. Justified Classes

[Gumballtoid]

I typically have more fun with CBM myself. Each class offers a different experience and fulfills a different role and that's usually what ropes me in. However, there are things about this mod that reliably ruin an otherwise enjoyable game. The biggest of these is that some classes are wildly imbalanced and require little to no effort on the user's part to rack up frags, which is a serious problem when you consider that CBM is almost always played in TLMS. This is amplified by the fact that most classes have weaker armor; even the copyweps got armor nerfs. Everything feels extremely squishy and it's oftentimes a matter of outlasting your opponent rather than outplaying them. Additionally, I have many aesthetic qualms with this mod, such as Guts Man's Battle & Fighters Super Arm, as well as countless sound effects that were either imported or custom made. Personally, I think the mod would look substantially better if the aesthetics were tailored to be accurate to the games while they still functioned in the same way, but otherwise I find there's more fun to be had with this.

JC is a different story for me. Upon release I was ecstatic that KY had seen a reboot, and some of the aesthetics were top notch. My qualm with this mod soon arose when I rapidly got bored with it. It doesn't feel as involved as CBM; I even heard someone refer to it as a cure to insomnia, and I happen to agree. Some of the sound effects were also questionable; the Stardroids use Game Boy sound effects when NES counterparts to some of them exist in the core. For instance, when playing as Mega Man, equipping the Mega Arm changes the charging and firing sounds to the Game Boy version, creating a significant inconsistency. My other qualms came more recently--it seems to me that the dev team was more concerned with releasing their mod than dealing with bugs and balance issues, and I cringe every time someone says that this mod is more balanced than the other. A prime example of this: flying Ground Man. There are also some skin replacements that feel unnecessary and imposed; Duo comes to mind. In addition, the behavior and attitude of some of the dev team in-game is a serious turn-off to me. I'm not going to name names but I'm sure some of you know who I'm talking about.

tl;dr CBM caters to me more because of the unique experience its classes offer, but they could all do with some beefing up in the armor department

[-FiniteZero-]

I'm not sure if I should weigh in, since I don't play online at all, but whatever.

I generally prefer Justified classes a bit more that CBM. When I am playing a classes mod of this kind, whether it be JC or CBM, I do it to feel like I am that Robot Master. Back when I played KY for the first time, there were several times I have jolts of happiness and excitement when a Robot Master had an attack that was like how it was in their games, like Waveman's alt for example.

Though, since I fight purely against bots, I wouldn't know the first thing about balance. :

[Clayton]

Justified's not bad, but I just don't feel like there's nearly enough of a following behind it to make mastering classes I like worthwhile.

Any particular reasoning for this statement? Any examples? "Nearly enough following of a behind it" is a pretty vague proclamation.

(click to show/hide)

He still tends to get fucked by hard-melee or hard-sniper types, but he does decently against just about anything else.

The classes I'm guessing you're referring to are Slashman and Darkman 3 since you didn't give any examples. These classes are highly situational checks and do not counter Punk in the long run. Slashman would only be able to kill a punk if Slashman strikes Punk first from a blind spot. If Punk is aware of Slashman, Punk can 1. spam his accurate mainfire to inflict multitudes of damage; Slashman won't even be able to get close enough to strike. 2. spam the copywep screw crusher to hit him from invisible angles 3. use the altfire to either force a kill against a wall or surface or escape with low health gaining more distance. Darkman 3 only counters Punk in very open maps but almost all classes are countered by it in these situations. If Punk gets close or even within mid range of Darkman 3, he can easily rip him to shreds with his mainfire. Punk is perfection in every aspect due to his mainfire being powerful, very accurate, fast moving and consuming no ammo. And if the user has trouble aiming that there is the option of switching weapons to an unlimited ammo copywep Screw Crusher.

I typically have more fun with CBM myself. Each class offers a different experience and fulfills a different role and that's usually what ropes me in.

This statement vaguely says you find Class Based Modification fun.

However, there are things about this mod that reliably ruin an otherwise enjoyable game. The biggest of these is that some classes are wildly imbalanced and require little to no effort on the user's part to rack up frags, which is a serious problem when you consider that CBM is almost always played in TLMS. This is amplified by the fact that most classes have weaker armor; even the copyweps got armor nerfs. Everything feels extremely squishy and it's oftentimes a matter of outlasting your opponent rather than outplaying them. Additionally, I have many aesthetic qualms with this mod, such as Guts Man's Battle & Fighters Super Arm, as well as countless sound effects that were either imported or custom made.

However from this statement you basically contradict yourself with stating many flaws and gripes you have with the mod. From this statement I take it that Class Based Modification is an unbearable experience for you since you never named any massive flaws like these in the light of Justified Classes.

My qualm with this mod soon arose when I rapidly got bored with it. It doesn't feel as involved as CBM; I even heard someone refer to it as a cure to insomnia, and I happen to agree.

Another extremely vague statement with literally no evidence behind such. "My qualm with this mod soon arose when I rapidly got bored with it", you give literally no evidence behind this statement; i.e. why did you get bored? "It doesn't feel as involved as CBM", Why didn't it feel as involved as CBM? "I even heard someone refer to it as a cure to insomnia, and I happen to agree." Again no explanation behind your point.

Some of the sound effects were also questionable; the Stardroids use Game Boy sound effects when NES counterparts to some of them exist in the core. For instance, when playing as Mega Man, equipping the Mega Arm changes the charging and firing sounds to the Game Boy version, creating a significant inconsistency.

We would happily use 8-bit sound effects to replace the Game Boy sound effects if all of them existed, I'm sure when the core take on Megaman V they'll make custom ones for such. However since we have no alternatives for most of the Megaman V sound effects we decided to just use all the Game Boy sound effects for every Megaman V weapon. You're the first I've heard that actually found an irritation to using such so I'm sure this is more of just a personal issue.

My other qualms came more recently--it seems to me that the dev team was more concerned with releasing their mod than dealing with bugs and balance issues, and I cringe every time someone says that this mod is more balanced than the other. A prime example of this: flying Ground Man.

Actually we tested that version for around a month's time, we found the flying Ground Man issue and supposedly solved it since it never came up again but then when we released the mod it occurred again. (Please note that this glitch is fixed in v3b of Justified Classes.) "I cringe every time someone says that this mod is more balanced than the other. A prime example of this: flying Ground Man." Flying Ground Man does not have anything to do with balance, it is a bug and nothing more. When flying as Ground Man it does not help you as much as it stops you from engaging in fights so if you were to really include this bug with balance it still wouldn't hurt the balance of the mod. (Also note that this bug is extremely rare to occur in TLMS/LMS so it wouldn't really become a problem in that situation either.)

There are also some skin replacements that feel unnecessary and imposed; Duo comes to mind.

Duo's core running frames looked very lazily done, he barely looked like he was walking let alone running. The new ones were based off how he ran in Power Fighters. If you were to compare the new ones with old ones side by side the new ones are far superior in every way. The skin change was very much necessary as was all the others (especially the Megaman & Bass ones).

In addition, the behavior and attitude of some of the dev team in-game is a serious turn-off to me. I'm not going to name names but I'm sure some of you know who I'm talking about.

I see this being more of a personal issue than an actual problem with Justified Classes. It seems like most people let their hatred and bias affect their judgement in determining which mod is better at least as far as the forum goes. Especially after I weigh out all the very serious and major flaws you stated about Class Based Modification in terms of general playability in comparison to the minor and almost uncountable flaws with Justified Classes that seem to be more personal qualms than significant issues.

[Gumballtoid]

I'm not backing anything up with "evidence" because they're my opinions.

[Dr. Freeman]

I prefer CBM myself just because I always end up having more fun with it than Justified.
Not super big on either of them though, but when it comes down to either of them, I personally find more enjoyment out of CBM.

[Rozark]

I like my classes mods without extra salt, which is why I order The CBM (The Cutstuff Big Mac) when I'm hungry and in the mood.

[Clayton]

I'm not backing anything up with "evidence" because they're my opinions.

That's perfectly fine, your opinion simply has no proper evidence or reasoning is all.

I prefer CBM myself just because I always end up having more fun with it than Justified.
Not super big on either of them though, but when it comes down to either of them, I personally find more enjoyment out of CBM.

Not really adding to the discussion here, simply stating something without evidence as well.

I like my classes mods without extra salt, which is why I order The CBM (The Cutstuff Big Mac) when I'm hungry and in the mood.

This statement just doesn't make any sense, even in a metaphorical perspective.

[Dr. Freeman]

I prefer CBM myself just because I always end up having more fun with it than Justified.
Not super big on either of them though, but when it comes down to either of them, I personally find more enjoyment out of CBM.

Not really adding to the discussion here, simply stating something without evidence as well.

There's not a lot of evidence to be said unless you want my official contract of, "I prefer CBM to Justified". If you want another in depth analysis just so you can "debunk" everything everyone says then I don't know what you're hoping for.

Justified bores me more than CBM. There's no evidence here unless you need a 20 minute video of me playing Justified and getting bored. If I'm gonna get bored, I'm gonna get bored you don't need a gigantic list of evidence to prove that you get bored.

Though if you want a note, I prefer mods that don't release 20 hotfixes immediately upon a new release.

[Korby]

the new ones are far superior in every way. The skin change was very much necessary as was all the others (especially the Megaman & Bass ones).

I wasn't going to partake in any sort of argument in this thread, but this actually has to do with the core too, because your[collective] skins were denied for that due to inferiority, usually for lack of quality.

So this is a few frames from your Duo walking animation.
A) This is one of MANY inconsistencies; The power fist is at a different elevation on your side sprite than on your 3/4 sprite. There are many many many more examples of this in your sprites for this skin, and several others, including but not limited to Coldman[who has an incredibly ugly back/r hit frame, by the way.], Burnerman[specifically, his spinning and jumping sprites. His spinning sprites particularly completely change shape depending on what direction you're looking at.], and Groundman[why is the difference between his 3/4 and side digging sprite that one is tilted up more; more importantly, what the hell is his left arm coming out of in the jump frame]
B) this is more nitpicky, but there's two different shades of blue going on in here
C) given the angle we're looking at it, which leg is forward, and which is in back, shouldn't we be able to see more of Duo's crotch armor in this pose? You have a single blue pixel there when you could easily have more.
D) This is a potato on his hand. To expand on that thought, it looks like a potato. One of the main problems your sprites have is you try way too hard to put too much detail into areas where they don't belong[see: coldman], and your rotations also generally look freaking weird. see next image for scary tentacle hand

[his eyes are white because he realized his hand looks like bacon]
I am aware that this issue is also in core, but it looks less like bacon due to the additional cyan on the lower part of the hand, signifying more of an arm.
I will say that I appreciate that your Burnerman actually, you know, walks, but assuming all of your sprites are better in every possible way is both conceited and nearly impossible.
I do have to ask why you decided to make Coldman taller when he's pretty darn short in game.
I also have to ask why you made Pirateman shorter and added gray to him[and like three other people].

To finish off my post, have a monstrosity.


"kill me"

[Clayton]

I prefer CBM myself just because I always end up having more fun with it than Justified.
Not super big on either of them though, but when it comes down to either of them, I personally find more enjoyment out of CBM.

Not really adding to the discussion here, simply stating something without evidence as well.

There's not a lot of evidence to be said unless you want my official contract of, "I prefer CBM to Justified". If you want another in depth analysis just so you can "debunk" everything everyone says then I don't know what you're hoping for.

Justified bores me more than CBM. There's no evidence here unless you need a 20 minute video of me playing Justified and getting bored. If I'm gonna get bored, I'm gonna get bored you don't need a gigantic list of evidence to prove that you get bored.

There should definitely be some kind of incentive as to why you find Justified Classes boring. One of the reasons I ask for an explanation or reasoning is to receive feedback and suggestions to help make Justified Classes more appealing to people like you.

As a member of the Justified Classes development team, it is one of my duties to seek out information and feedback to make Justified Classes a better mod. And I see this topic being more of an opportunity for people to share opinions whether significant or strictly personal to help improve the quality of both class mods. Just posting to say that you like one mod more than other doesn't really help the discussion very much.

Though if you want a note, I prefer mods that don't release 20 hotfixes immediately upon a new release.

I find this very hypocritical in a sense because the Class Based Modification had to release just as many if not more hotfixes for their most recent update so singling out only one class mod for such a reason is very ignorant.

[Dr. Freeman]

As a member of the Justified Classes development team, it is one of my duties to seek out information and feedback to make Justified Classes a better mod. And I see this topic being more of an opportunity for people to share opinions whether significant or strictly personal to help improve the quality of both class mods. Just posting to say that you like one mod more than other doesn't really help the discussion very much.

The discussion here is CBM VS Justified. Saying which one I like better is very on topic.

And it seems kind weird if your job is to help improve your classes when every piece of critique thus far you have shrugged off as it if were wrong.

[Korby]

I find this very hypocritical in a sense because the Class Based Modification had to release just as many if not more hotfixes for their most recent update so singling out only one class mod for such a reason is very ignorant.

I released one hotfix that was quickly removed because it didn't fix anything, then I released early versions of a Best-Ever fix[and quickly removed those posts] that Jax was working on [to fix a bug we couldn't have foreseen without leaking the update] until he actually fixed it.
One hotfix that isn't even the version servers are supposed to host.
Much foolishness on my part.

[MusashiAA]

Now now, boys.



I'm left here to imply that JC defines classes without little to no disadvantages or limitations at all, for the sake of making all classes "usable in all scenarios".

I don't agree with this at all. To give one example: a melee-centered, close range class shouldn't be given a projectile attack because of its limitations being made more evident in a long range fight or when fighting against a class with a long range weapon. Instead, it should be given the ability to cut down the range or resist the long range fight or momentarily dodge or block attacks. Eliminating the disadvantages to what you would call a class eliminates the essence of classes being role-centered (<<<<THIS IS A FACT), and instead gives a class two or three wildly different abilities, which just makes a class imbalanced or undefinable, and defeats the purpose of letting players fill in the limitations with their own wit, or to mantain classes within the boundaries of its role.

So now we have a more clear differentiation between both mods: CBM sees role limitations as a tolerable (may I add sometimes purposeful) factor, while JC...doesn't?

EDIT: My input here is that this attempt at ironing the limitations, as if they were a bad thing, just results in giving players a less fluctuating online experience, in the sense of a lack of difficulty when facing other players and the abilities to overcome it with strategy. I guess I would call this "handholding"?

[Fyone]

the new ones are far superior in every way. The skin change was very much necessary as was all the others (especially the Megaman & Bass ones).

I wasn't going to partake in any sort of argument in this thread, but this actually has to do with the core too, because your[collective] skins were denied for that due to inferiority, usually for lack of quality.
Alright, firstly I don't get why when I first sent these sprites to the core why no one said "why" the skin had a lack of quality instead you say all of these issues after the skin is used in Justified Classes.

So this is a few frames from your Duo walking animation.
A) This is one of MANY inconsistencies; The power fist is at a different elevation on your side sprite than on your 3/4 sprite. There are many many many more examples of this in your sprites for this skin, and several others, including but not limited to Coldman[who has an incredibly ugly back/r hit frame, by the way.], Burnerman[specifically, his spinning and jumping sprites. His spinning sprites particularly completely change shape depending on what direction you're looking at.], and Groundman[why is the difference between his 3/4 and side digging sprite that one is tilted up more; more importantly, what the hell is his left arm coming out of in the jump frame]

Again here, if I miss inconsistencies with parts of the skin why wasn't I told that when I first sent the skin over? That aside there are numerous inconsistencies that appear in skins that are in the core all the time yet you still think they have the "quality" you speak of:

(click to show/hide)

Burnerman has literally 3 inconsistencies in just one instance, his head is not consistent, his torso is not consistent, and lastly his foot ring thing is not consistent. Magicman's magic wand's stick portion isn't consistent as well. These are just a few inconsistencies that I found that are also in many other skins. Also is that the only ugly frame on my Coldman? Because I can safely say that every back/r frame on the core Coldman looks just as bad. I never made any extra frames on any skins so I can't speak for those mistakes, however let me just say that all of those other issues are very minor due to how long they'll be shown in-game (especially Groundman).

B) this is more nitpicky, but there's two different shades of blue going on in here

Disregarding this.

C) given the angle we're looking at it, which leg is forward, and which is in back, shouldn't we be able to see more of Duo's crotch armor in this pose? You have a single blue pixel there when you could easily have more.

Again, could've been fixed rather easily if I had known about the issue when I first sent off the skin.

D) This is a potato on his hand. To expand on that thought, it looks like a potato. One of the main problems your sprites have is you try way too hard to put too much detail into areas where they don't belong[see: coldman], and your rotations also generally look freaking weird. see next image for scary tentacle hand

[his eyes are white because he realized his hand looks like bacon]
I am aware that this issue is also in core, but it looks less like bacon due to the additional cyan on the lower part of the hand, signifying more of an arm.
I will say that I appreciate that your Burnerman actually, you know, walks, but assuming all of your sprites are better in every possible way is both conceited and nearly impossible.
I do have to ask why you decided to make Coldman taller when he's pretty darn short in game.
I also have to ask why you made Pirateman shorter and added gray to him[and like three other people].

Duo's hand in that image is almost identical to the back frame one so I assume you think that one looks like a potato too? Please enlighten me with what areas you think have too much detail on Coldman, please provide some examples for where my rotations look weird also. Disregarding Burnerman here because the core one has the same problem. Also I increased Coldman's size because he was that size in Megaman & Bass compared to the rest of the Robot Masters:

(click to show/hide)

Also, my Pirateman is not "shorter" and I swapped gray with that pink colour that was used in the core because the gray is more prominent than the pink in all of his appearances. Gray was added to Magicman so that his cards looked more like cards and Groundman so that his treads looked more like treads.

To finish off my post, have a monstrosity.


"kill me"
Even my brothers and I knew that our Hyper Storm-H looked bad (was just a placeholder), kudos to pointing out the obvious though.

[Lighjing]

You know, for my money I think Silversin's Saxton Hale is the best class mod here.