Class Based Modification vs. Justified Classes

[MusashiAA]

You are ruining this for everybody who wants to discuss, by turning this into a personal foodfight of resentment. You are also making a fool out of yourselves on your own because of this.

If you can't help to be salty, at least take it out someplace else where you don't derail this topic, like the school yard or something.

EDIT: I can't help but point out that last post before mine, because I can actually relate to that taste: class based mods that incorporate some form of teamwork or a simplified roster of role-centered classes are a lot better than what CBM or JC offer for me, because of easier balance and grasp of the role concepts when compared to the other classes, something that is stupidly hard to do with the over 40 classes in the two mods being discussed. Although then again, CBM classes generally finds itself remaking roles with new source material, so players have 4 or 6 classes with the same role, but designed differently.

[BookofDobson]

You know what this reminds me of? Sonic fanboys. VA vs VA, Classic vs Modern. Just why?
The reason why I like JD more than YD is like giving a child a gun. Sure, the kid gets one kill but dies very quickly. How you solve that? You have to actually TRAIN with the class. You have to know when to handle it, how to handle it. You can't blindly hold m1 and snag a frag. If a class is to easy to use and just really op, the JD staff is there. They review their notes, take suggestions and test it out. If it is fine, they tell you the stats and how to use the class. If not they fix it at LIGHT SPEED for the next version. You don't know how happy that makes me. YD classes are fun and not held by canon rules... and that's pretty much it. Some classes take training and some (Homing, gravity, 3 new classes that shouldn't be here) just suck out the fun like a vacuum. All you do is M1 and alt if anyone gets near. For the user it's fun playing without any kind of risk, for the players... well, dying over and over and the fact that you can't do anything about it except gang up is not fun at all. I personally seem to get a 'Fuck you, everything is fine, stop whining' vibe from the YD team.
Really both of you should take notes from each other, it won't kill you

You know, for my money I think Silversin's Saxton Hale is the best class mod here.

   Nice joke. Really I'm dead serious. I'm laughing.

[Rozark]

You can't blindly hold m1 and snag a frag.

All you do is M1 and alt if anyone gets near.

Are you confused?

[BookofDobson]

You seem to have lost yourself in my rather lengthy comment. Please read it thoroughly

in JD:

You can't blindly hold m1 and snag a frag.

in YD:

All you do is M1 and alt if anyone gets near.

Are you confused?

NVM I fixed it for you

[Rozark]

Strange when Metalman's design concept in both mods is to just hold M1. Sure, you have ceiling/floor blades, but that's still only holding M1.

CatMario (Pluto, for the less-fun) can just hold his one buster and keep going.

There we go.
Buster.
See that's where you started to contradict yourself.
Busters usually require no ammo to use.
ANY class with a buster can just M1 and win.

By the way, Justified also suffers from homing and any ill fate you listed CBM for.

Actually yea I'm going to address what I put the subject as.
You edited your post and edits aren't shown anymore/only on the first post.
Stop trying to clean yourself; you're only making yourself dirtier.

[MusashiAA]

Rozark, you fucked up that SH topic I did a while ago with this exact same behavior. Please.

I agree there are some classes (in both mods) that still suffer from a complete lack of direction and general design lazyness and oversights, but it's not like either devteam straight up scoff at players whenever they argue that these classes have clear issues, or refuse to do anything about them, unless it's a consistent misundertanding of the class or an usual baseless argument. This is something I can affirm: when people take their time to argue when something might be wrong, we on the CBM devteam discuss it sometimes, even if it may seem ridiculous at first or if we know the person is generally biased. There's also stuff we don't talk about openly at times, so we end up replying as vague as possible (this being something I like about JC peeps, when they're pretty open about changes).

[Rozark]

You mean the part where I called it a useless topic and needed to be locked because:

[3:27:29 PM] Rozark Kyouko: Why does that topic exist then besides bitching about opinions
[3:27:32 PM] Rozark Kyouko: Tell me
[3:29:37 PM] Rozark Kyouko: What purpose does it serve besides seeing which Cutopian favors which mod only to divide and continue the bitching onto that individual for their opinion of the mod they didn't choose?

Just like before, I'm requesting a lock again.
End this before it goes too far.

Musashi, if you learned from the Saxton Hale topic, you'd know that that's what it ended up devolving too and would've learned to not try something like that again.
Sure, I tend to bite off more than I can chew quite often, but surely you would've known what would happen.
Please tell me you did.
The same thing is going to happen if action isn't taken now.

[Lighjing]

You know, for my money, I'd say that all these class mods are worse than Weo Weo Ice, the greatest class mod

[Clayton]

As a member of the Justified Classes development team, it is one of my duties to seek out information and feedback to make Justified Classes a better mod. And I see this topic being more of an opportunity for people to share opinions whether significant or strictly personal to help improve the quality of both class mods. Just posting to say that you like one mod more than other doesn't really help the discussion very much.

The discussion here is CBM VS Justified. Saying which one I like better is very on topic.

And it seems kind weird if your job is to help improve your classes when every piece of critique thus far you have shrugged off as it if were wrong.

If you reread my previous post you'll notice that I never said that saying which is one is better in a vague matter is off-topic, what I said was it doesn't help the discussion very much. If something is wrong I'm going to say it's wrong, I'm not going to lie and say false statements.

Now now, boys.



I'm left here to imply that JC defines classes without little to no disadvantages or limitations at all, for the sake of making all classes "usable in all scenarios".

I don't agree with this at all. To give one example: a melee-centered, close range class shouldn't be given a projectile attack because of its limitations being made more evident in a long range fight or when fighting against a class with a long range weapon. Instead, it should be given the ability to cut down the range or resist the long range fight or momentarily dodge or block attacks. Eliminating the disadvantages to what you would call a class eliminates the essence of classes being role-centered (<<<<THIS IS A FACT), and instead gives a class two or three wildly different abilities, which just makes a class imbalanced or undefinable, and defeats the purpose of letting players fill in the limitations with their own wit, or to mantain classes within the boundaries of its role.

I agree with you on this point, because there are classes in Justified that fight like this. For example, Slashman where he has no projectile attacks but has lots of mobility options to make up for it. However Class Based Modification fails to accomplish this goal effectively mostly due to the extreme gimmicks players are forced to adhere to. For example, Needleman has no way of getting close to another player since his mobility is terrible and does not have enough armour to shrug off direct hits. His abilities and attacks are only useful at point blank range and terrible at even mid range combat. Let's not forget that Class Based Modification's version doesn't even properly portray Needleman but instead more so portrays TF2 Heavy.

So now we have a more clear differentiation between both mods: CBM sees role limitations as a tolerable (may I add sometimes purposeful) factor, while JC...doesn't?

Justified Classes does take roles into consideration but not in a way that it would hinder the classes' ability to perform in situations.

EDIT: My input here is that this attempt at ironing the limitations, as if they were a bad thing, just results in giving players a less fluctuating online experience, in the sense of a lack of difficulty when facing other players and the abilities to overcome it with strategy. I guess I would call this "handholding"?

Your perspective on my idea is misconceived, I am simply saying that classes that aren't given the compulsory tools or don't have a good balance in abilities to make a role or gimmick work then there are many instances where classes are put in an unfair situation. What Justified Classes is doing is not "handholding" but giving each class a mostly if not equal opportunity to shine in their own individual way. Putting the class in an unfair situation will not make a challenge but instead make a frustrating experience for the player. Especially when one player is putting out double the effort using a disadvantaged class against someone using a class that exploits the map or counters the user's class.

Strange when Metalman's design concept in both mods is to just hold M1. Sure, you have ceiling/floor blades, but that's still only holding M1.

CatMario (Pluto, for the less-fun) can just hold his one buster and keep going.

There we go.
Buster.
See that's where you started to contradict yourself.
Busters usually require no ammo to use.
ANY class with a buster can just M1 and win.

In Justified Classes simply holding down m1 or 2 will not result in success. Having the skills to aim, dodge, and make good use of the classes' other abilities will aid in success. In Class Based modification, classes such as Metalman, Airman, Fireman, etc. have very easy to hit moves that require no ammo and no kind of risk. I'm not sure if this is supposed to be some kind of role but from what I'm seeng it's not very thought out.

By the way, Justified also suffers from homing and any ill fate you listed CBM for.

The homing capabilities in Justified Classes are drastically toned down in both range  and traction compared to Class Based Modification where they are almost identical to their copywep counterparts.

[MusashiAA]

Eh, no. I don't think it needs to be locked yet, and I also don't think anyone should try to avoid opening topics like this because of a few kids who can't help but think there's a mod war going on, or to not feed the usual flamebaiters. Mods could just think otherwise, though, and they haven't. I think we can talk about stuff without ending up on shitflinging.

Maybe we can say what we like without disliking others. Maybe we can try to understand and respect other people's tastes and points of view without needing to puncture them in the neck. I can do that, and other people here can too...so why avoid it just because of a few who can't?

[BookofDobson]

Strange when Metalman's design concept in both mods is to just hold M1. Sure, you have ceiling/floor blades, but that's still only holding M1.

CatMario (Pluto, for the less-fun) can just hold his one buster and keep going.

There we go.
Buster.
See that's where you started to contradict yourself.
Busters usually require no ammo to use.
ANY class with a buster can just M1 and win.

By the way, Justified also suffers from homing and any ill fate you listed CBM for.

Actually yea I'm going to address what I put the subject as.
You edited your post and edits aren't shown anymore/only on the first post.
Stop trying to clean yourself; you're only making yourself dirtier.

I should 've been clear. Metal man takes some skill, the magical thing called aim. Buster? Takes aim.
M1 is mainfire is it not? Im sorry if im wrong. What you taking about pluto is m2 altfire if im wrong again about the term sorry. Justified actually has balance with its homing. Magnet man's homing sucks a bit Dive does tiny damage Pluto is a bit op there i'll admit but then again he keeps getting fine tuned. Search does small damage and Magic is having a nice nerf.
I didn't change anything in my first post than the very last line about Saxton.
Im not cleaning myself that's just you being alarmingly rude

[coolcat7022]

Musashi put it best, let us discuss these controversial topics, we're no here on Cutstuff, after all.

[Rozark]

>Lad saying CBM Metalman is bad because you can M1
>Justified Metalman is three shots-delay, still requiring no ammo but is held for constant M1
>Aiming somehow justifies holding down only M1 to get kills

>Pluto homing is balanced
>Pluto is balanced

I'm done here
This is why I hate Justified.

[BookofDobson]

>Lad saying CBM Metalman is bad because you can M1
>Justified Metalman is three shots-delay, still requiring no ammo but is held for constant M1
>Aiming somehow justifies holding down only M1 to get kills

>Pluto homing is balanced
>Pluto is balanced

I'm done here
This is why I hate Justified.

Aiming and dodging and basically practice and skill. Im I missing anything so you won't keep curving around my points?
Pluto? Balanced? Who said that? I didn't say that. Clay didn't say that.  Dude relax.
maybe if you were not so hostile...

[Watzup7856]

Musashi put it best, let us discuss these controversial topics, we're not muslims here on Cutstuff, after all.

Can't even tell you how prejudice that is.