Weapon "Tier List"

[TrueTenguMan]

Yeah it might be on purpose but that's not really helping the view count.

ZING?

[Max]

...

Is that another inside joke?

[Korby]

SBaHJ is not an inside joke. It is known by thousands.
Things like THREE BLACK DOTS are inside jokes.

[Max]

But I mean it's inside to those who read the comic, nobody else gets the joke.

[Korby]

Ohh, I see what you mean.

Anyway, SBaHJ is a selective thing, I guess. I guess the only people who really like it are the ones who read MSPaint Adventures.

[NemZ]

"Then lets all have rocket launchers and machine guns since they give you more kills"

That's not what I'm saying at all.  My overall point isn't to say don't use weapon A because it sucks compared to B, my point is that weapon A should be made better or B weakened a bit while still keeping each unique.  The goal is a diverse and relative balance, not 50 plasma guns firing slightly different shades of blue balls.

Take Spark Shock for example.  It has a nice niche role, but it just doesn't have enough oomph for deathmatch use.  What if it had an area affect on contact, sort of a chain lighting thing, so that shooting it into a crowd caused minor damage/stun to everyone within a close range of the target?  Suddenly it's a much more interesting situational weapon, especially in team games, while still remaining generally weak and not changing at all in dueling value.  That's the kind of thing I'm hoping to come from this discussion, you see?

For another example, compare the Needle Cannon with Yamato Spear.  Needle does slightly more damage and uses less ammo, while Yamato is less random and rips through enemies.  That's a decent trade off for balance, though perhaps something could be done to make the differences more apparent?  I'm not sure.

Now compare Metal Blade with Ice Slasher;  they use the same ammo count at roughly the same firing speed and effective range, they both rip through, yet Ice does only about half as much damage as Metal.  Unless there's a mysterious property or two about these weapons I haven't noticed, that seems like a problem for game balance, don't you think?

As far as combinations go, however, I think you're missing the crucial fact that if you're using one weapon you're not using the other, so trying to add the dps together doesn't work.  The Wave/Dive combo you keep supporting makes no sense to me anyway as they are each best used at different ranges.  To put it another way, if the target is close enough that Wave is a good option switching to Dive just makes you vulnerable, and if they're far enough away that Dive makes sense to use you're not likely to accomplish anything by throwing Waves at them other than to waste ammo.

[PressStart]

I just played on some Capture the Flag server and had some guy owning me with head-on Crystal Eye shots. OUCH

NemZ that avatar is awesome.

[TrueTenguMan]

Take Spark Shock for example.  It has a nice niche role, but it just doesn't have enough oomph for deathmatch use.  What if it had an area affect on contact, sort of a chain lighting thing, so that shooting it into a crowd caused minor damage/stun to everyone within a close range of the target?  Suddenly it's a much more interesting situational weapon, especially in team games, while still remaining generally weak and not changing at all in dueling value.  That's the kind of thing I'm hoping to come from this discussion, you see?

Alright I agree with this. Though I speculate that this MAY of been the original idea for this weapon, but proved to be too OP in those modes mainly due to that AoE. Though hypothetically they change it that way, it will be placed in hard to reach areas, kinda like gravity hold and Time Stopper... IDK... I'm just a bit skeptical of an ability like that being implemented. But I guess it's all depends on how it works in-game in which it doesn't feel like your pouring glue on them.

For another example, compare the Needle Cannon with Yamato Spear.  Needle does slightly more damage and uses less ammo, while Yamato is less random and rips through enemies.  That's a decent trade off for balance, though perhaps something could be done to make the differences more apparent?  I'm not sure.

Originally Needle Cannon hindered movement in the demo version, however players complained about it's effect which led to it being another recolor buster with better ATK and WP capacity. Yamato should have a delay shot similar to battle rifles in games. 3 shots per click sound good instead of a Gatling Gun of hell?

 The Wave/Dive combo you keep supporting makes no sense to me anyway as they are each best used at different ranges.  To put it another way, if the target is close enough that Wave is a good option switching to Dive just makes you vulnerable, and if they're far enough away that Dive makes sense to use you're not likely to accomplish anything by throwing Waves at them other than to waste ammo.

If you have a flamethrower, you want to not only burn your opponent but have them running for their life in confusion and fear. While they're running, they're only focused on avoiding you at all costs. What if you had something like a pistol in your hand? While your trying to burn him, you can shoot him while getting closer. Scare tactics is the point of this combination. In honesty, if your too far from your target, yes, your wasting ammo and it doesn't make sense to continue doing so; too close and using missiles is pointless. However, as big as a threat water wave is due to it's effect, getting closer with this weapon is cake until you get to the perfect place to shoot; poring salt on a wound really.

Metaphorically speaking, you want to spread enough flames at your target so they're in panic. During that panic they'll get burned, and while thats happening your shooting them till they're out of health while still repeating the tactic. Now just as you said, "if the target is close enough" wave is the perfect close range weapon which makes the combination pointless, although one can't think from just "that" point of view. If your just using the "flame", your obviously going to get shot at yourself from the target's self-defense and there is a 50-50% chance of you dieing from recklessness. Using the missiles is just a more proficient tactic when combining it with Water wave because your causing extra damage until you can get close. Of course this all depends on how the target is moving and retaliating while avoiding you, but regardless, you have the high ground. Maybe I didn't explain it like this or rather I said it differently but this was the point of the combination's purpose: Scare Tactics.

[Mr. X]

CAN'T YOU SEE THIS TIER LIST IS TEARING US ALL APART?


...I warned you all!

[TrueTenguMan]

CAN'T YOU SEE THIS TIER LIST IS TEARING US ALL APART?


...I warned you all!

Well unless NemZ comes after me with a Ballade Cracker, then I guess we took your warning for granted...that and I'll be nothing but a talking smart-assed pointy nosed head of a Tengu.

[Hallan Parva]

SILLY BOWSER

(click to show/hide)

Please, God, no, not the tier lists!  The last thing we need is pointless arguing on which weapons are on which tiers.

I warned you all!

HE WARNED US ALL

[NemZ]

So basically what I'm hearing is that you're mostly a bunch of conflict-avoidant pansies who are more concerned with quieting dissent and singing another round of cumbiaya then actually looking at the game we clearly all appreciate with a critical eye and perhaps making it a more balanced, tactically deeper, and MORE FUN product?

Son, I am disappoint.

Needle vs. Yamato:  Actually I'd kind of like to see Yamato made a bit weaker but shoot x6 per click (two staggered waves?), the idea being that it has the same number of bullets per clip as Needle but spits them out in half the time.  This would make Yamato even more clearly a crowd sweeper while Needle is more of a dependable sidearm.

Wave/Dive combo:  I can only really see this working in a team game, with two different players firing the weapons in tandem to take down opponents... though I'd personally still rather they both were launching Dive Missiles down range or 'crossing the streams' with dual Water Waves.

@ PressStart:  thanks.  Nice nick you've got there, btw.

[Max]

So basically what I'm hearing is that you're mostly a bunch of conflict-avoidant pansies who are more concerned with quieting dissent and singing another round of cumbiaya then actually looking at the game we clearly all appreciate with a critical eye and perhaps making it a more balanced, tactically deeper, and MORE FUN product?

Basically, yes.

I just don't like arguing about it. Good weapons are good and that's all I care about.

[Mr. X]

So basically what I'm hearing is that you're mostly a bunch of conflict-avoidant pansies who are more concerned with quieting dissent and singing another round of cumbiaya then actually looking at the game we clearly all appreciate with a critical eye and perhaps making it a more balanced, tactically deeper, and MORE FUN product?

Taking it so seriously sucks the fun out of it.  Arguing over stupid crap sucks the fun out of it.

[NemZ]

Bah... arguing over stupid crap IS fun.