MM8BDM v5 - What maps do you feel need work? Pt. II

[Emmanuelf06]

It has nothing to do with a crashman map.

Nope, and neither do the fans in Elec, but they help the map flow. That's the point you're missing here.

*insert overdone argument here about translating a 2D shooter to a 3D FPS environment*

Oh true...yeah, not a big deal then...yeah it's helpful....

[NemZ]

Fans are in elecman's GB stage though, so it's not completely from nowhere as it is here.

[Bikdark]

*insert overdone argument here about translating a 2D shooter to a 3D FPS environment*

preach it bruh. that idea needs to be jammed into every vanilla mapper's head 60 times over

Edit: Going to keep this short: Remove mines on mmbpir. They add no depth to gameplay and only serve as a means to punish players for being creative. You can BARELY see them from the surface (this is another issue on ALL maps with water, you NEED to be able to see through them clearly) which can easily force the player's attention away from the actual game if they want to try and jump into the water. While they do make the map "unique", I think we should all remember that the last two MM5CRY iterations were "unique" because of their anti-fun depth mechanic.

[Watzup7856]

Nothing has been said in awhile. What do people think of Pirateman?

I personally don't like it with the pirate mines or the jumps that make you think you can reach it, but can't (you know the ones I'm talking about.

Also I see that some people don't like Slashman. I don't mind it myself, but I'd like to know why people don't like it.

[BiscuitSlash]

I kinda like MM7SLA but at the same time not really.

The area with King Crokakus (or whatever the dinosaur's name is) pretty good, and the foresty area is decent. However I feel like the cliff areas are a little bit lackluster and don't have enough going for them.

So basically one half of the map is good, the other is meh.

[Knux]

I don't hate the current MM7SLA, but I do feel that it's more like a rocky mountain than a jungle in appearance. Though if I had to point out some stuff, it would be the following:

(click to show/hide)

1. These steps are awkward to jump to the top, which has costed me and probably many others a frag. Just make them running stairs.


2. I understand the borders for the river are for jumping out only as small openings, but they're quite often too small. Widen them by 32 - 64 units, and lower the terrain 32 units to be on par with the Water Wave floor by where I'm shooting to make for better fighting space.


3. There's absolutely fucking nothing in this cavity other than making players jump, so just raise the floor by 32 units for the same reason as above.


4. Budge this trunk to the right at least 32 units to make it not necessary to be a perfect non-SR40 jump to climb up the cliff.

The reason people probably dislike this map is because of the incredible amount of jumping it demands on every area.

[LlamaHombre]

So we've seen some fruit come out of this thread, and I figure now would be a good time to start gathering a consensus about a map similar to the prior polled MM2QUI. This map has seen minimal modifications since the game's first release, and opinions about this map tend to vary rather radically. Be it complete acceptance to disdain towards the layout to disdain towards the gimmick, there's always some kind of disagreement about MM5GRA. So please, share your thoughts, even if you need to reiterate on points you've already made in this thread.

What do you think about MM5GRA? Do you feel it's fine as-is, or do you feel that it could use some changes to become better? Or do you think it needs completely replaced??? Share your thoughts about MM5GRA here!

[Gumballtoid]

My biggest issue currently is that the navigation options change radically every time the gravity flips. "Oh, want to climb those stairs over there? Yeah? Oh, well, darn, you can't reach them. Guess you'll have to wait 15 seconds for the gravity to flip. Whup, looks like you just got killed. Should have climbed those stairs when you had the chance."

Contrary to what some may think, a map does not need to be defined by a gimmick in order to be enjoyable and memorable.

The healthiest thing I could suggest is to fix parts of the map at high or low gravity and design those areas it. I can imagine some cool weapon and item placement requiring use of the gravity in a nearby area to access.

[Bikdark]

MM5GRA is honestly one of my favorite maps. Teleporter strategy, high ground, and taking advantage of people that jump too high is pretty fun. This map is an excellent example of how you should cut off certain passages and open up others. What's great is that you're almost never overly-restricted in your movements. Next to almost every low gravity passage is a high gravity passage, and vice versa. It's a matter of "can I go left, or right?" not just "am I fucked, or not?". I don't recommend making any large changes to the layout, but feel free to mess around with the sizes of current rooms, or even cutting a hallway out or two.

On the subject of MM2QUI, it is shown by MM5GRA that restrictive concepts can be fun. Howeverrrrr MM2QUI doesn't do it very well because all the rooms are the same with no defining features or much height variation. I think your best bet would be to treat MM2QUI somewhat like MM5GRA, but a little bit more deadly (this means differently shaped rooms, height variation, weapons/paths you can only access at specific times, etc). Hell, I imagine a tight knit map like MM4SKU would be really fun with quickbeams if I had ways to get around them.

Also keep the fire shooter guys on the inaccessible ledges, I like them.

[tsukiyomaru0]

Wasn't there a Rockman no Constancy mod that had a map with inverted gravity or something? If it were possible to implement that, it would be great. Else, well... How about consider a larger fighting area for high gravity, with blocks and props for the player to hide behind'em and maybe one 3D Platform Elevator?

[Russel]

I'm honestly not sure how I feel about MM5GRA...

The mechanic feels intrusive to gameplay because of how restrictive it was made to feel. During intense gravity modes, your jump height is half a stair.
This, I have a problem with, more than anything.
If the gravity during the intense gravity modes was reduced ever so slightly, it would allow for players to jump over certain projectiles still while being under the map's base influences.

The layout is mostly okay, I'd say. It could use some adjustments for flow, but the map itself really isn't in as bad of a spot as I felt. My gut reaction's always been "screw this map" because of how sluggish and clunky high gravity feels to play in. Looking at it objectively, however, I can see this map getting pretty good.

[Bikdark]

Honestly I'm not understanding the negativity toward MM5GRA. Usually in servers I see a lot of people enjoying themselves on the map (especially CTLMS servers oh god the strats are fucking insane). The gimmick isn't as restrictive or boring as MM2QUI, overbearing like MM4DIV, or over-implemented like every rendition of MM5WAV. You see me talking all sorts of shit about bad map design, well MM5GRA is pretty damn good if you ask me. There are almost no spots where you're TRAPPED, the gravity mechanic is easy to predict and play around, and you're allowed a lot of room to put those juke shoes to work.

If you're really having trouble with the map, I'd suggest thinking about hallways you could cut out in areas like here. It's an area very few people think about despite its usefulness, so drawing attention to it would alleviate a lot of navigation stress.

I'd also like to see if this little alcove being turned into a shortcut to here looks any good. You could probably turn that little alcove into a room as well (yeah i know look at me wanting to make a map BIGGER).

Whatever you propose/change, though, keep in mind the whole point of MM5GRA: Path changing and adaptability. If you end up homogenizing the map and making all paths accessible in both gravity states, you defeat the strategic purpose of the map. Honestly, you haven't fully experienced this game until you've seen a good round of CTLMS on MM5GRA. Small skirmishes all over the place, creative movements, baits, outplays, escapes, a whole fuckton of awesome shit happens on this map. It's comparable to MM5DAR honestly (which is the best map btw).

Wasn't there a Rockman no Constancy mod that had a map with inverted gravity or something? If it were possible to implement that, it would be great. Else, well... How about consider a larger fighting area for high gravity, with blocks and props for the player to hide behind'em and maybe one 3D Platform Elevator?

I would consider a true gravity flipping mechanic to be wayyyy too intrusive (even thought what we're talking about is just walking on the ceiling like cbm gravityman). Blocks and props sound pretty good though. I wouldn't mind seeing a couple of those in the big Pharaoh Shot area with GHold, possibly leading up to the teleporter. Maybe make the tele a 2-way?

[Kapus]

I'm with bikdark 100% in regards to MM5GRA

just throwing that out there

[Watzup7856]

Sometimes I feel really annoyed when areas become restricted because of gravity, but I see where Bik is coming from.

Biggest thing for me would be to make the 32 height stairs walkable, especially the ones near the windstorm hallway (having to jump 5 times up those steps is a pain in the ass in high gravity).

[Magnet Dood]

If there's any problem with MM5GRA, it's the vanilla weapon layout. Wind Storm is ridiculous on that map on low gravity. I get that it's a weapon that's drastically changed by the environment and it's neat to see how it interacts with it, but getting juggled by those things without any way to avoid them is flat-out dumb. I also find it somewhat redundant since Ice Wall and Search Snake are already present with it, and having three floor-crawling weapons is overkill. What you really oughta do is replace it with Mega Ball for gravity-based trick shot shenanigans.

Layout-wise I've never had a problem with it, although I think changing the stairs like Watzup suggested would be beneficial. The big inaccessible ledge where Pharaoh Shot and Search Snake are get pretty annoying when people camp up there during low gravity, but it changes pretty quickly anyway so I'm not really bothered by it all that much.