MM8BDM v5 - What maps do you feel need work? Pt. II

[Thunderono]

I see where Bik's coming from with the layout, but I disagree on account of the gimmick for the reason of it being annoying as sin.  It's just plain annoying losing your ability to jump, it's annoying to watch gravity-based projectiles either slam to the ground harmlessly or sail off into the sunset, never to harm a soul (In parts of the map, Bubble Lead even hits the ceiling and dies before it can do anything), it's annoying having to jump up each individual jump stair (It takes nine jumps to reach the top of the jump stair hallway), and it's especially annoying knowing that you won't even have time to adjust to the gravity change since it'll just flip to the other one soon anyway.

The layout never did me any favors, either.  I never liked how clockwise the flow was, and I especially hated the fact that the map was centered around a massive hallway with exits only on either side and no cover whatsoever.  Beyond these two massive flaws, though, the layout just has a bunch of little things that irk me.  For example,

this little alcove

or as I like to call it, the "Supply Closet," is an incredible example of how dead ends can slaughter gameplay.  You almost reliably catch people hiding in this room in TLMS modes, and the worst part is, you're pretty much screwed if you want to flush them out, since you barely have sight lines to the top of the lip on the approach to the room and the 64-wide juts in the doorway give players inside a chance to ambush enemies coming to get them out.  But I think the worst part of the entire map is this part here.  Reason being that it can only be accessed during low gravity and has perfect sightlines to one of the biggest flow hotspots on the map.  It only takes one person to secure this area, as players attempting to get up have to either funnel through a thin, 64-high staircase at one end or risk getting bodyblocked on the other end and fall to their death.  On the other end of the map, you have this.  I took the screenshot at the angle I did for a very particular reason: that's about how well you can see up there.  There's an ice wall token up there that's not even visible.  This teleporter destination is another spot you reliably see people camp out in, primarily due to its startlingly closed sight line to the rest of the room and the complete inability of players to take out enemies hiding out up there during high gravity.

Now, then.  I know I've said I'd like to see a complete rework of the map with rooms designed around specific gravity levels, and I'm sticking by that.  I like the thought of high gravity rooms being completely matters of cover, with boxes and lips scattered about for players to dart about and take frags without having to worry too much about the high gravity gimping their mobility, instead focusing on using the cover in the room to outwit opponents.  I also like the thought of low gravity rooms being centered with large geometry, and players bouncing about in them firing higher speed projectiles to secure the kills in the vastly different setting.  I think that the map could just be better with rooms designed like that, and regular gravity rooms serving as intermediaries between.

That being said, though, there does exist the possibility I dislike of the layout staying the same.  If that's the case, then I'd like to put in a few words about it.  First and foremost, I agree with Bik that the supply closet should be made to link up with the top of the staircase.  I also think that the supply closet should provide a high gravity route to the high ground in that area.  Then, the 64-high stairs should be moved closer to the middle of the hallway to supply cover to people caught out in that area.  Add a ladder somewhere too to allow (slow) movement to the high ground during high gravity.  These changes are just to allow people to get up there more easily and make the high ground a more viable battleground than the campground it currently is.

If you're really having trouble with the map, I'd suggest thinking about hallways you could cut out in areas like here. It's an area very few people think about despite its usefulness, so drawing attention to it would alleviate a lot of navigation stress.

I also agree with this.  Adding some sort of room or route to this area would help to achieve better flow, as well as provide those sweet, sweet options to players who just want to be free of the giant hallway of doom.  One final note is on that teleporter destination I mentioned earlier.  Honestly, just like lower it or something.  If you only want it to be accessible by the teleporter itself, just throw in those spike things and make it out of reach for high gravity.  It's annoying when people are there.

There's also the minor things like cutting down on jump stairs and taking out some of the pressure from high gravity, but those've already been said.  Honestly, one of the worst parts about this map is the fact that it's way too easy to say high gravity when you meant low and vice versa.  It's happened a lot in this discussion, and probably in this post somewhere.

[Orange juice :l]

MM5GRA is in a great spot. Only thing I can think might be worth mulling over would be ladders in the ghold room to teleporter exit and end of hallway to ghold room (plus making the previously mentioned stairs walkable) to let players get around in high grav mode a little easier. If possible, maybe let people "kick off" the ceiling in low grav to fall faster to make gameplay a little more dynamic/feel better and make actually using the third dimension less of a "ghold me please bby" move.

[BiscuitSlash]

+1 Defence for MM5GRA

It's always been one of my favourite maps. Layout always felt good and engaging, and the gimmick is fun and the map design is well suited to it.

Honestly Bikdark already explained all of it really well so there isn't much I can say. Keep MM5GRA the way it is.

[Dr. Freeman]

I'm just gonna repeat what a lot of other people have said at this point, but I guess more numbers make it stand out more?

I don't thing Gravity Man is in need of a full rework at all. The main problem is that high gravity is way too overbearing, and that's less so the fact that high gravity is a jerk and more so the map structure just kinda being rude with jump stairs everywhereeeee.
but everyone and their mom has said cut down on it, so that's good.

Layout wise, I'd like to second Bik's thing about connecting the shortcut to the little hidey hole room. Helps flow yo.
That and I think experimenting with a ladder or two to the super high ground Thunder was talking about near the main hallway. In theory you can get up there fine in low gravity but would need to take a ladder when it's high, so while you're not locked out completely, there's still some purpose to the gravity. The only problem I can think of is I'm not sure how much slower taking a ladder would really be in this case, so ti's more something I'd fiddle around with and see if it works or not.

[Watzup7856]

I agree with Dood on how windstorm should be changed to something else. The reason I hate those stairs is because it's so easy to pressure someone to go to those stairs to avoid being chased by windstorm in that hallway. It creates a choke point so to say.

[Orange juice :l]

What if the high stairs that are unclimbable in high gravity to the high ground above the main highway had ladders, but on alternating sides? That way it'd be somewhat slow to climb still but you could still access the area.

[Megaman94]

I say add the gimmick to certain places instead of the whole map. The gravity gimmick is really annoying. especialy when I can't climb the stair to get away from someone who is after me.

Wasn't there a Rockman no Constancy mod that had a map with inverted gravity or something?

I believe that was the Wily 3 map

[tsukiyomaru0]

I say add the gimmick to certain places instead of the whole map. The gravity gimmick is really annoying. especialy when I can't climb the stair to get away from someone who is after me.

I encourage it too. If I recall, you had to cross a "gravity change point" in MM5 to flip the gravity. Having this as a timed gimmick instead of sector(s) gimmick makes it prone to irritate people.

[Bikdark]

Well, if you have sections with normal gravity as well as sections with continuously shifting gravity, you create a burden of knowledge. Rather than knowing on the spot what the gravity is (like they do now), you force the player to either: continuously pay attention to the shifts in gravity, OR actually go out and see for themselves, which may not be a viable decision. In short, combining the timed gimmick with sectors in an attempt to "normalize" the map would do more harm than good.

I also disagree with the notion of removing the timed gimmick in place of 100% sector based gravity (which is probably what you meant), like MM5STA. Simply put, this would make the map dull. The concepts of adaptation, timing, and pseudo-terrain shifting are all thrown out the window. Maps should not only be enjoyable and engaging, they should also teach players -- that's what we have variety for. Not only that, but making it sector-based centralizes the map around one point: the normal gravity room(s) (which is very bad). Players flock to what they are most comfortable with, and will therefore ignore high and low gravity rooms, even if you try to entice them with strong weapons.

I personally believe attempting to homogenize MM5GRA in such a way would be a step BACK in map design, and is a very lazy way of representing a really cool concept: GRAVITY. Sure, you have the gimmick implemented in full: high, low, and normal, but you don't create anything new with it. A gimmick should be implemented to add a twist to gameplay -- it needs to add to the experience. With the timed gravity gimmick, you're encouraging the player to be more nomadic and continually shift their position in order to maintain control of the game. Removing the gimmick in place of free movement all around the map does not encourage any creativity. By changing to vector-based gravity, all you're doing is BORING the player. Why should they ever change their position? GHold will only be effective in the low gravity room and it'll make it harder to hit people, so why go there? I'll be easier to hit in the high gravity room, and Water Wave will DESTROY me, so why should I go there? Currently, MM5GRA is one of the only maps in the game that must be traversed in full multiple times per game in order to win (this is true for literally every game mode you can play on the map), and there is no way to accomplish that same goal with sector-based gravity.

So, I ask all of you that are unhappy with the map to set aside your hatred for gravity (I understand this is hard for almost all of us) and view the map objectively. How often is it your fault that you got cornered during high gravity? Or when you chose to use Bubble Lead during low gravity against someone using Pharaoh Shot? Why not play a few rounds of TLMS on the map and see how far camping gets you? Rather than throwing the idea of timed gravity changes out the window because it screwed you over a few times, observe what the map does right, what can be done to make it better, and how your own playing changes on MM5GRA in comparison to "normal" maps. It may seem almost hypocritical given my previous statements about (terribly implemented) gimmicks, and it definitely sounds pretentious, but this map deserves a lot more attention and thought than a lot of you are giving it.

TL;DR making the gimmick simpler does more harm than good. MM5GRA is more complex than most people think, and has a unique playstyle worth preserving. Despite it being gravity-based (PTSD ACTIVATE) it does not share qualities with MM4DIV, and everyone interested in the map's future needs to think critically about it.

[fortegigasgospel]

Well, if you have sections with normal gravity as well as sections with continuously shifting gravity, you create a burden of knowledge. Rather than knowing on the spot what the gravity is (like they do now), you force the player to either: continuously pay attention to the shifts in gravity, OR actually go out and see for themselves, which may not be a viable decision. In short, combining the timed gimmick with sectors in an attempt to "normalize" the map would do more harm than good.

I also disagree with the notion of removing the timed gimmick in place of 100% sector based gravity (which is probably what you meant), like MM5STA. Simply put, this would make the map dull. The concepts of adaptation, timing, and pseudo-terrain shifting are all thrown out the window. Maps should not only be enjoyable and engaging, they should also teach players -- that's what we have variety for. Not only that, but making it sector-based centralizes the map around one point: the normal gravity room(s) (which is very bad). Players flock to what they are most comfortable with, and will therefore ignore high and low gravity rooms, even if you try to entice them with strong weapons.

I personally believe attempting to homogenize MM5GRA in such a way would be a step BACK in map design, and is a very lazy way of representing a really cool concept: GRAVITY. Sure, you have the gimmick implemented in full: high, low, and normal, but you don't create anything new with it. A gimmick should be implemented to add a twist to gameplay -- it needs to add to the experience. With the timed gravity gimmick, you're encouraging the player to be more nomadic and continually shift their position in order to maintain control of the game. Removing the gimmick in place of free movement all around the map does not encourage any creativity. By changing to vector-based gravity, all you're doing is BORING the player. Why should they ever change their position? GHold will only be effective in the low gravity room and it'll make it harder to hit people, so why go there? I'll be easier to hit in the high gravity room, and Water Wave will DESTROY me, so why should I go there? Currently, MM5GRA is one of the only maps in the game that must be traversed in full multiple times per game in order to win (this is true for literally every game mode you can play on the map), and there is no way to accomplish that same goal with sector-based gravity.

So, I ask all of you that are unhappy with the map to set aside your hatred for gravity (I understand this is hard for almost all of us) and view the map objectively. How often is it your fault that you got cornered during high gravity? Or when you chose to use Bubble Lead during low gravity against someone using Pharaoh Shot? Why not play a few rounds of TLMS on the map and see how far camping gets you? Rather than throwing the idea of timed gravity changes out the window because it screwed you over a few times, observe what the map does right, what can be done to make it better, and how your own playing changes on MM5GRA in comparison to "normal" maps. It may seem almost hypocritical given my previous statements about (terribly implemented) gimmicks, and it definitely sounds pretentious, but this map deserves a lot more attention and thought than a lot of you are giving it.

TL;DR making the gimmick simpler does more harm than good. MM5GRA is more complex than most people think, and has a unique playstyle worth preserving. Despite it being gravity-based (PTSD ACTIVATE) it does not share qualities with MM4DIV, and everyone interested in the map's future needs to think critically about it.

I really agree with Bik on Gravity, the only things I argue with is IF they change it, yea certain sectors, but they should be indicated on the change using the arrows like in the actual game, and keep away from a "middle ground" normal grav areas, that would keep the issue of the flocking to those rooms away. BUT changing it at all to a preset grav would eliminate the function of the Presses.

Again though, I'd rather it left how it is.

[Hallan Parva]

just gonna leave my two cents


honestly I can't stand how one-directional current Gravity Man is, especially the stupid high shelf next to the main hallway

there's only one way up there, those huge-ass stairs next to the supply closet
said entrance is stupid easy to camp and prevent enemies from getting up to the shelf
you can't jump up the steps unless it's low gravity
and the weapon that hits up to the shelf (Search Snake) is placed on the shelf

like wtf this is honestly the dumbest piece of stage geometry I think I've seen in core
(excluding Dive Man, but we don't talk about Dive Man)


I'm in full support of either a partial revamp or a full rework of the stage's layout; HOWEVER I'm also in full agreement with Bikdark in that the gravity mechanic should impact the entire stage, not specific sections of the stage (or separating the effects into different areas). I do think that the gravity mechanic is really good if used properly, as you effectively get two uses out of any one given area (low gravity lets you move around easier and reach high places, whereas high gravity turns ordinarily-useless platforms or crates into excellent cover, since you can no longer jump over them). The unique, strategic value of alternating gravity can't be ignored simply to make the stage more "tolerable", even if the current layout is (in my opinion) badder than bad.


but that's just, like, an opinion, man

[Orange juice :l]

What's so bad about the big shelf? Sure you're gonna get gunned down if you try to go up there during high grav, but you have more than half the map that's out of sight of that shelf. Just go elsewhere when gravity's like that (bear in mind you have an escape at both ends of the main hallway regardless of gravity) and come back when it's low grav so you can climb up and shoot them.

[Bikdark]

Any update on the MM1FIR situation? Considering the old map was wrongfully removed and replaced with a random (much larger) custom map made in 2011, I'd say it's fair to give the old map a good look at to see if the map should be reimplemented.

[ice]

I think I might be one of the few people that actually misses/liked the original mm5 wav >.>

[Watzup7856]

You're not alone. Don't get me wrong, I think both maps are bad, but at least old Waveman was fun in a stupid way. The current Waveman just isn't a fun or a good map.

Mainly the problem I have with the map are the wavebikes.  I think the map needs to be remade with a different layout and a different idea for the wavebikes. Either make it so they are not the only way to traverse terrain, or just straight up remove them.