MM8BDM v5 - What maps do you feel need work? Pt. II

[bass+roll=love]

flame man stage plsss fix that one that one is so terrible

[Bikdark]

Yeah I bet spamming Bass alt is pretty hard there

[BiscuitSlash]

I've noticed that the majority of maps that got replaced or heavily changed were symmetrical maps. They wear off more quickly.

That's the only reason I can think of as to why MM1FIR would have gotten replaced. Pretty cool design and was fun to play on, but it was symmetrical.

[Bikdark]

Excellent reasoning! Let's continue the trend by removing MMBMAG, MMBPIR, and MMBCOL! :^)

Real talk tho the map was small enough to the point where it being symmetrical was a non-issue. It wasn't like old MM2MET, MM2HEA, MM2AIR, or current MM2QUI that you can barely orient yourself in.

[Thunderono]

The only thing I can think of that you could even do to MM6FLA would be to add one more pillar to the middle oil pit so the jump's a little less awkward, but that's more me spitballing than a change the map particularly needs.  It works well for what it is.

Personally, I like new MM1FIR.  The old one was alright too, but it was a little awkward getting around without using the central ramp due to a lot of jumps, fire traps, and even two ladders right next to each other in the main room, which are all things new MM1FIR cuts down on (although it does admittedly still have these to a far lesser degree).  I can't really say it's that much bigger, either-- old Fire Man was pretty small, but it's not like new Fire Man is anything but.  It's hardly even close to medium-sized.  Again, I'm not saying the old one is bad, but given the choice between the two, I'd take current Fire.

[BiscuitSlash]

Excellent reasoning! Let's continue the trend by removing MMBMAG, MMBPIR, and MMBCOL! :^)

They'll wear off eventually. Heck, I've already seen a good amount of hate for MMBMAG.

I feel like MMBMAG might have room for improvements, but I've played the map too little to pinpoint how it could be improved.

[ice]

The original MM1FIR to me just felt like "grab hyper bomb and spam it in the central rooms to win" more than anything. On the old MM5WAV map, I actually liked it how it was back when the bikes used A_Recoil since you could actually control how fast/slow you where going (one of the things that ruined the map for people was roboenza, though I think the same issue will just be around for saxton hale too), and lastly for MMBMAG, I think the main thing alot of people agree is that the map is too big and open with long distances to traverse between buildings, I would personally suggest teleporters to speed up movement and map flow

[Orange juice :l]

grab hyper bomb and spam it in the central rooms to win

The Hyper Bomb concern doesn't apply to game modes other than Deathmatch (inb4 terminator) so it's rather irrelevant.

For MM5WAV, I feel that the original (including speed controllable-bikes) could have been very good (outside of the homing weapons on such an open map) if a new mechanic was introduced: you have to keep your wavebike fuel up. This could be accomplished by gathering ammo on dry land, just getting it idly over time, or maybe even build them into the bike-dispensers. This way, players can't stall indefinitely on the water but can still use them to get around, collect the water-bound weapons, and fight on the water assuming they don't drag it out too long.

[Bikdark]

New MM1FIR is double the size of the old map btw thunder

Reminder that you need to consider MM1FIR was REPLACED (not changed) without community consent or input -- NO EFFORT WAS MADE TO TWEAK THE OLD MAP. Don't just compare old MM1FIR and its weapons with new MM1FIR, consider how the old map could be changed to be on par with other good maps

[Red]

I don't really think there's anything wrong with the new MM1FIR at all, I mean, the map itself is good enough for a match between like 10 people or something, Old MM1FIR didn't really do a very good job at that, it was a good map for modes like duel probably, but it really couldn't take many people in there because it was so small and cramped, like thunder said too, it felt awkward to nagivate at times.

[fortegigasgospel]

I was getting ready to say it myself, while the new fire may not be much "bigger" it has more open space to actually fight. I agree in the enjoyment of the old design, but when servers had too many people in it it became a hassle.
Many of the modes played often back in the day (Roboenza and Bot Apoc (I miss you Bot Apoc)) were horrible on the map too since you didn't really have a lot of space. Saxton I feel suffered as well on the map.
I really don't think any other maps in core had that problem as much, many of the duel maps have more open space (like flash and drill).

Also as a side note, not everyone gets bored of symmetrical maps faster, if maps I make are any indication I love em.

[Bikdark]

Perfectly good criticism, Red. Navigation was pretty restricted if you didn't know how to do a couple fancy jumps, and the map was geared toward matches of ~8 people or fewer. The former is something that should've been dealt with in order to make the map more accessible to new players, while the latter wasn't /necessarily/ bad, in my opinion. Remember that small != bad. Playing with a couple buddies on huge maps like MMBMAG or MM5DAR gets pretty boring after a while, so that's why we have small/crammed maps -- for variation.

What did you like about the map, though? For me, it gave off a very distinct "shit's going down" air (something that the new map lacks greatly), like other small maps. Old MM1FIR, though, was more open than a map like MM4SKU, and less split like MM3DW1. This increased pressure on the player, decreased cover (making for quick matches), and forced the player to plan out their movements VERY carefully to avoid being caught by a duel opponent or TLMS enemy carrying some shit like Ring or Kcrush. Being a map with Hyper bomb, Cutter, and Atomic Fire, it wasn't uncommon to internally scream "LOL FUCKING BULLSHIT" every couple minutes.

While the new map is a slight decrease in bullshit, I'm sure a lot of players that are into stressful gameplay have high resentment toward "new" MM1FIR (yo for real adding a custom map into the game from 2011 is SO questionable). It's one of those maps that feels like it's just rooms connected by hallways. Granted, that's technically how almost all maps are, but to me after many rounds of TLMS, it seems to lack personality. Usually after a few months of playing on a map, I can get used to it even if I don't like it. New MM1FIR though, not so much.

[Red]

I mainly have positive feelings about the old ma because yes, it was great with few people, perfect for duel, actually. But the game isn't oriented towards duel though, it's deathmatch oriented,  and it wasn't a particularly good deathmatch map, being so small and cramped. However the new MM1FIR does a better job at being a deathmatch map and gets rid of the pro lems the old map had in regards to the target gamemode.

it's for this reason that I don't think the change was unjustified or anything like that, thankfully the new map isn't terrible nor anything

maybe the old layout could be brought back and used for something else, but fixing it so it actually works for deathmatch.

[Bikdark]

While it is nice to try and support the original concept of the game (deathmatch), it is unfortunately an outdated, frustrating, and overall boring game mode. Modes like TLMS currently dominate because people enjoy them the most -- statistics don't lie. DM is great for testing out new features like maps and weapons, but it gets old fast.

Also, what I think you're not understanding is that old MM1FIR being small was a GOOD thing. Making every map overall the same size and promoting the same kind of density isn't what makes a good game with good variation of gameplay -- you're basically reskinning the same map over and over.

So yeah, it WAS small as hell, and for a good reason: so we have different kinds of maps to play on. One of the reasons Quake 3/Live are so competitive and played for 4k hours per person is because all the maps are different. You have Theater of Pain which is fucking HUGE and rife for mlg snipes and long TLMS rounds as well as small af maps like Hell's Gate redux for mindless instagib fun. By making EVERY map DM-oriented, you are homogenizing the game and making even worse than it was before.

The new map isn't horrible, but it definitely doesn't bring anything NEW to the table.

[Orange juice :l]

Poking back in to say that if all maps should be balanced around deathmatch first we wouldn't have CTF maps