MM8BDM v5 - What maps do you feel need work? Pt. II

[Red]

I may be wrong, but I believe it has been said that this game is oriented to deathmatch before, that's where my point was coming from. If the game is indeed deathmatch oriented, old MM1FIR was not good at "doing his job" , and its replacement makes perfect sense to me.

don't get me wrong, though, MM1FIR was a fine map, but it just had problems in deatmatch, not only because of the size, but also the layout and weapon selection, like the hyperbomb thing oj mentioned some posts ago.

DM might be boring,  but if the game is about that,  there's not mich you can do. Of course I could all be wrong since my whole pov stands on that thin ice base.

[Bikdark]

Alright, assuming this game REALLY SHOULD BE ALL ABOUT DM (it shouldn't btw), it doesn't change the fact that we NEED MAP VARIATION. Old MM1FIR did a great job of offering players a fast paced, small map that you really had to pay attention to do well in. By making it the same as every other map in the fucking game, you remove variation, even though the game is still DM oriented (your original point). Either way you're hurting the game.

Also, there's no sense in using weapons in your argument considering they can be changed on a whim. The LAYOUT is what matters here.

[Red]

There's really no problem with the layout or weapon selection, generally, the problem only presents itself in modes like DM or when there's many people

I'm sure that MM1FIR isn't the only small fast paced map in the game, so making that your point would just be appealing to a minority that isn't so small in the first place. However pursuing that further would just be me further playing devil's advocate, since I actually would like old MM1FIR back, (duel is in fact, my favorite gamemode, after all) I was just saying it wasn't entirely unjustified and/or unfair.

[Orange juice :l]

DM might be boring,  but if the game is about that,  there's not mich you can do. Of course I could all be wrong since my whole pov stands on that thin ice base.

Hello? Where in the Holy Bible of MM8BDM wherein there are requirements ordained by God Himself does it say that now and forevermore MM8BDM and all its maps have to focus on Deathmatch?

If it's not fun, not played, and not wanted, then focusing on it is stubborn and spiteful.

[Red]

Maybe not ALL maps, you're just exaggerating there, if it weren't for that, there wouldn't be ctf maps, you said so yourself!
However, deathmatch is the game's core mode, which is where my point of "the removal of old mm1fir was actually reasonable" was based on.
We're kinda going off track here though, aren't we?

[MusashiAA]

DM might be boring,  but if the game is about that,  there's not mich you can do. Of course I could all be wrong since my whole pov stands on that thin ice base.

Hello? Where in the Holy Bible of MM8BDM wherein there are requirements ordained by God Himself does it say that now and forevermore MM8BDM and all its maps have to focus on Deathmatch?

If it's not fun, not played, and not wanted, then focusing on it is stubborn and spiteful.

http://cutstuff.net/mm8bdm/?page_id=5

Gameplay

The game can be played in pretty much any game mode in Zandronum, but will be designed for Deathmatch.

Not certainly the ten commandments you're asking for, but I guess it's a pretty good source.

[Bikdark]

The only reason CTF has maps specifically made for it is because you NEED to make maps specifically for CTF -- not because 8bdm devs want to tailor maps for specific modes.


"Posted by admin | | Sunday 17 April 2011 11:54 pm "

Yeah that's a pretty good source musashi. People don't play DM anymore. It's fine if you want to make sure DM is playable on all maps just cuz it's in the name, but I'm pretty sure devs themselves tend to enjoy modes like TLMS or TDM over DM.

[Orange juice :l]

I mean, if the devs wanna build for DM, that's fine and all. They could also make ice slasher do 170 damage and block all people from eastern Europe from downloading the game. There's authority and then there's being reasonable, but you do you.

[Bikdark]

Oh yeah I mean it's fine if you want to make a majority of the maps for DM/TDM, but if you really think people WANT the game to be 100% DM then you're dead wrong. In the end it's the project leader's choice, but if you want the game to be a success then it's worthwhile to start listening to reasonable feedback.

I don't know why people are so opposed to maps being small or big. Who gives a fuck if old MM1FIR was too small for 32 man servers? That was kind of the point. If the server is too large, stop being lazy and mapvote to somewhere else. I could use the same argument by comparing DM maps and CTF maps -- why should I change the DM map because it's not meant for CTF? Oh right, I shouldn't, because that would be silly. I also like how people don't complain as much about large maps like MM5DAR and MMBMAG, two of the biggest maps in the game. THOSE maps aren't suited toward smaller populations, so why not make them smaller? Smh at these double standards. Like damn, have you ever played the Hyrule Temple level in Smash Bros? Fuckin huge, not the kind of stage you'd play on with only 2 people, but that doesn't mean it should be made smaller to accommodate for those people.

And for the 30th time, variation is NOT BAD. Putting aside the argument over whether the game is DM oriented, the problem of map homogenization remains. I for one would love to see wacky af map designs like old MM7BUR or old MM2HEA. Despite being hated by a good chunk of the community for very good reasons, I always heard myself saying "oh fuck yeah this is different" when going to those maps.

[Magnet Dood]

I'm only popping in to say that I thought I'd never see the day that Bikdark said he'd want to see a map like old MM7BUR make a comeback.

Good points, though. Kinda seems like MM8BDM is veering more towards a Project-M style (if we can still use Smash metaphors) approach in which there's a clear emphasis on making things more suited for a competitive crowd. Not a whole lot of balance between meme maps and regular ones like Melee kind of had (for every Final Destination, there was an Icicle Mountain, lol). I think that's more descriptive of the general populace's wants, however. The game's run with majority rule in mind, and usually when maps are slated to be redone (like BWST a while ago), there's a very very small minority who ever wants to keep maps around because they lack the fundamentals for a serious match.

I am also of the small camp that is slightly salty about old MM1FIR getting removed. I'm sure that old post of mine in its defense is still around the forum somewhere.

[Messatsu]

Oh yeah I mean it's fine if you want to make a majority of the maps for DM/TDM, but if you really think people WANT the game to be 100% DM then you're dead wrong. In the end it's the project leader's choice, but if you want the game to be a success then it's worthwhile to start listening to reasonable feedback.

The balance of the game is geared toward DM.  It's in the title of the mod for goodness sakes.  Even if you think LMS or Duel is a much more widely liked mode, balancing everything toward those directions would be at the detriment of other modes. It silly to think that every weapon, stage, gimmick etc could be balanced perfectly for every mode that's supported by the engine.  Such a task is perhaps possible, but is impractical as a project that everyone works on in their spare time.  Besides, Deathmatch is in the mods name, it's only logical that it is the base mode.  Logical feedback is always welcome, but there's a line between saying "X new map doesn't flow as well as the old map because of Y element" and "Bring back the old stage it was so much better because Y!"

I don't know why people are so opposed to maps being small or big. Who gives a fuck if old MM1FIR was too small for 32 man servers? That was kind of the point. If the server is too large, stop being lazy and mapvote to somewhere else. I could use the same argument by comparing DM maps and CTF maps -- why should I change the DM map because it's not meant for CTF? Oh right, I shouldn't, because that would be silly. I also like how people don't complain as much about large maps like MM5DAR and MMBMAG, two of the biggest maps in the game. THOSE maps aren't suited toward smaller populations, so why not make them smaller? Smh at these double standards. Like damn, have you ever played the Hyrule Temple level in Smash Bros? Fuckin huge, not the kind of stage you'd play on with only 2 people, but that doesn't mean it should be made smaller to accommodate for those people.

This is only my opinion, but I think most stages are redesigned because they don't properly reflect the Robot Master they represent very well.  As an example, Heat Man's DM stage was very flat and simplistic in it's design.  It was a good DM level due to it's simplicity, but overall it wasn't terribly interesting.  Redesigning it created much more varied terrain and allowed use of Item2 (which is iconic to Heat Man) in a way that worked in the map.  I think some folks felt Fire Man was similar, but I cannot speak for them so it's just me guessing.   I don't really think Heat or Fire's size increased that much, but they became more intricate.  To use your Hyrule Temple example, the stage isn't really a problem until you consider the bottom area that makes it extremely difficult to KO someone.  Take that out and the stage really isn't a problem as much.

And for the 30th time, variation is NOT BAD. Putting aside the argument over whether the game is DM oriented, the problem of map homogenization remains. I for one would love to see wacky af map designs like old MM7BUR or old MM2HEA. Despite being hated by a good chunk of the community for very good reasons, I always heard myself saying "oh fuck yeah this is different" when going to those maps.

All things considered, there's nothing preventing anyone from making a Classics pack and just dropping in the old maps.  I mean hell, if this doesn't already exist I'd be very surprised.

[MusashiAA]

If I may add, have we even ever seen a map, official or community-made, that was or is designed with only LMS/Duel in mind? Aren't most, if not all map packs also geared towards DM as well?

EDIT: I've said this before, but in the light of staying on-topic, I will say that the least you could do to better suit the mayority of DM maps to other more played game modes would be to incorporate team-specific spawns, and properly change the map layout accordingly.

EDIT: By the way, has any work been done towards making CTF maps also compatible with other team game modes as well, if it was ever possible to begin with?

[Orange juice :l]

The balance of the game is geared toward DM.  It's in the title of the mod for goodness sakes. ...

You say MM8BDM is balanced around Deathmatch but provide no reasoning as to why besides it being "the way it's always been", which doesn't hold water. Classes, (T)LMS, and Duel are all far more popular than Deathmatch despite- as we have been told- the dev team has, this whole time, been putting their efforts towards making Deathmatch the more fun mode. From this I conclude that either Deathmatch is an intrinsically unpopular mode or the dev team is far more capable at balancing around non-DM modes, even unconsciously. Considering there's been Deathmatch servers always available (shoutouts to BE) as well as organized events to try to rekindle its popularity, I don't think it's a matter of anti-DM culture. If there are other plausible reasons for this, please chime in.

If Messatsu speaks for the whole dev team, I can only conclude there is a divide between the wants of the devs and the wants of the players.

[Rozark]

If Messatsu speaks for the whole dev team, I can only conclude there is a divide between the wants of the devs and the wants of the players.

Can confirm that Messatsu DOES NOT speak for the whole team, but merely himself.
In fact most of us have just been watching this unravel for awhile now to see when the appropriate time to chime in is.
I'm not sure if now is the perfect time to, but I just wanted to clear that part up.
Personally I'm going to wait a bit longer but this discussion has me intrigued.

[Red]

Well if there's no clear up from the dev team this is pretty pointless and going nowhere. I think that the general direction of where things are going needs to be clear to everyone.