MM8BDM v5 - What maps do you feel need work? Pt. II

[Messatsu]

Again, setting aside the whole "deathmatch in the title" argument (because it's basically arguing semantics), you seem to heavily be missing one of my points, Mess.

I'd say the name IS important but I'm not going to argue it at this point since getting into the details would get boring.  Let's just say I mean that it should work well.

One of my main gripes with old MM1FIR being replaced was that there was no devteam-playerbase communication on the issue. We were left entirely in the dark until it was WAY too late! MM1FIR was not abhorrently bad like MM5WAV or MM5GYR were, so we honestly deserved to have some input before the fact -- and we still DO deserve input, because there seems to be a lot of split opinions on the old map. It's worth looking into again.

To reiterate, the above issue is NOT about MM1FIR specifically, it's about clarity and communication.

This part is a PERFECT example on helpful feedback.  I agree, communication was handled very poorly there.  I'm not 100% positive, but I think that is part of the reason this thread was formed (don't hold me to that!)

On to the next problem: robot master/map identity. Not only do I think it is very silly to try and reflect a robot master's personality in the map itself, but if I absolutely had to use that method of map-making, I would say old MM1FIR does a much better job of representing Fireman than new MM1FIR does. Tricky navigation, high intensity gameplay, fire traps, ladders, the whole nine fucking yards. I felt right at home at old MM1FIR because by god, it /felt like Fireman/. New MM1FIR is a very low-pressure, low-intensity map; not something very characteristic of a hot-headed robot, don't you think?

Actually, again, this is quite well thought out.  Though I would disagree with the stage layout.  I felt the old design became very spammy with weapons.  Probably worked well as a Duel map, but larger fights (DM/LMS) became a problem.  Big issue here though it's this is super subjective and unless there's a broad consensus among the player base (Ex. Turbo I think is widely regarded as very blah) or the dev team feels there's room for improvement (See:MM1FIR) then the best way to bring change is to start a feedback topic and get as many players as possible to back you.

Setting aside subjective views on robot master representation in maps, you failed to address my concern about map homogenization. New MM1FIR blatantly does not bring anything new to the table, and offers a very shallow amount of complexity. Rather than trying to salvage the old fast paced gameplay so people would have something different to play on besides "halls and rooms deathmatch map number 75" (this is basically what the game is now btw) you just said fuck it, and put in Ivory's old map. Very lazy.

Never actually addressed this at all since, ya know, I was talking about weapons and not maps.  (That was my mistake, but I think over broad statements lead to this kind of confusion) Again I'd say this is subjective as above.  If you disagree it's absolutely fine to make a topic and discuss it.  

And damn, you respond to legitimate complaints about good vanilla content being removed with "Make a mod"? Way to leave a sour taste in the mouth of everyone trying to comprehend your haphazardly concocted responses. Damn straight the game is geared toward vanilla - I remember how you were left in charge of duel and left it unplayable without hefty player modding for years.

Yes, make a mod.  That's the beauty of this game.  Don't like a change the dev team made? Make a mod (Hell, get someone to do it for you if you can't yourself)  I'm sorry if you don't agree with this, but if you don't want to put forth any effort aside from making posts, then then to quote you.  "Very lazy."  Also, I was never in charge of duel.  The only change we made was to remove specific weapon/item removal because...and follow me on this one...IT WAS CRASHING THE GAME.  That's a BIT more unplayable.

Well here's a problem: an unfun, frustrating, boring, outdated gamemode is being shoved in our face 24/7 when we don't want it. There, is that enough? That's one of many problems, here.

And gee, you know what a great way of obtaining specific feedback is? Playing the game for once. No, internal testing and playing on release day don't count. If you can't get your hands dirty every once in a while to learn what players want, I'm not excited to see what's in store for MM9.

As a counter to above where you had wonderful feedback.  This is garbage....Nothing useful, just insults and idiotic accusations.  I shouldn't have to point this out.

[fortegigasgospel]

All things considered, there's nothing preventing anyone from making a Classics pack and just dropping in the old maps.  I mean hell, if this doesn't already exist I'd be very surprised.

This does exist, the legacy map pack. Which I think includes the old MM1FIR already, I might be wrong on that.

[Watzup7856]

So uh what do you guys think about Crashman?

I fucking love Crashman, but the weapon/spawn placements are very weird to me. If it were switched around a bit, I think it'd be fine. The super tall ladders are also pretty chokepointy especially when Crash Bomb is on the map. I really like the layout though, it's different from other maps which makes it very unique to me.

[Messatsu]

I think I'm in agreement.  The layout is very Love/Hate depending on the game mode and player count, but I think the weapons just feel....weird ....like they're not QUITE right.  Also iirc there's a good number of items you need Rushjet or Coil for though it has been greatly improved since the old days. (Still think there's a random Wtank tho)

[fortegigasgospel]

My opinions
Ladders need to be checked, I feel they should be in the stage somewhere, but not how they are atm, since anyone climbing them is rather open game from both top and bottom.
Also personally I feel Hyper Bomb should be removed from the map (if it IS still in it), it hits the whole "halls" very easily and personally I feel it out shines Crash Bomb on it's job.

[Magnet Dood]

Crashman is one of those maps where you can't make it any better without taking away from the map's source. Kind of a shame, really. I've always thought it was a pretty bad map, but there's not really any way to improve upon it given the source.

It is still the only map you can B-17 on these days, so I enjoy that.

[Watzup7856]

I feel like the top set of ladders are fine since they have cover, but the bottom set is definitely a choke point in the stage. I did mess around with spawns and weapons when I tried changing the map (like putting sakugarne higher up, making W-tanks more accessible). There's also Item 1's,  rush coil, and rush jet all in the same map, which I don't think it needs all 3. At least get rid of 1 of those things, preferably Item 1. Actually, getting rid of rush jet could be better, but the high amount of cubby holds would require you to keep getting the items to get everything. Although, It would mean you'd have to make smart decisions and get just the weapons you need for your strategy, which makes for more intense gameplay.

[BiscuitSlash]

I've never been too big on Crashman's map, but I've also had the impression that there's no way to change that.

The feature of ascending into the sky is a must, but the map layout doesn't seem to support it very well. Now that I think about it, it might be because the pipe walls surround every path of the map, so the sky cannot be seen properly. I'm aware that layout is more important than the visuals, but layout for MM2CRA has always felt a bit average-y and having a map be visually good does enhance the experience.

I'd be interested in seeing what could be done with a new layout. Not saying it necessarily has to replace the current MM2CRA, but I think a MM2CRA with open sky would be worth seeing at least, since not only would it make the sky effect be better executed, but it would also allow for a more interesting layout. Different height levels and ladders would be required for the sky effect, but a few teleporters would help with pace.

[Gumballtoid]

My biggest qualms with MM2CRA stem from the visuals rather than the map itself. I personally think changing the sky effects would really do the map a favor, but at the end of the day, there's just not a lot you can do with spaghetti pipes. Perhaps one of the sides of the map could be opened up to reveal open sky? Right now it feels more like a big pit than a tower.

[Emmanuelf06]

Crashman is fun with this level design style (TLMS spam from high spot, but pretty funny), but the the design, everything who is very "yellow" and black hurt a little the eyes..... Im not sure if the sky type can help, but it looks complicate to make it better...

[Megaman94]

Quickly switching to Spark Man's map real quick, I think that map is a little to small for Deathmatches, especially when there are 20 players in the server.

[Rozark]

The only major thing that would need to be fixed in Sparkman is the spawn in the pit, which was already guaranteed to be done.
It isn't Sparkman's fault that it wasn't designed with more than like 8 people in mind, it's the host's fault for allowing Sparkman to be played with 20 people. Servers need to be responsible for their map rotations and adjust accordingly based on the amount of players in the server.

[Kapus]

Quickly switching to Spark Man's map real quick, I think that map is a little to small for Deathmatches, especially when there are 20 players in the server.

By this logic we should also fix up Mr. X since that map is a little bit too big for deathmatches with 5 or so people.

[NemZ]

Alright, enough of this whining.  

What really needs to happen is the integration of a script into the game's multiplayer code that detects the number of players currently on a server and then automatically skips over any maps in the rotation that are not flagged as appropriate for that number of players.  That also means either adding some sort of flag to the map files themselves or creating a list file that the script checks against.  So either editing old maps and encouraging map creators to add the term into their own works, or else some sort of judging needs to happen for the maintenance of the list as new maps are created.

There.  Someone go make that happen.

[Messatsu]

Not a bad idea NemZ, but then we'll breed whole different subset arguement of "What do you mean Sparkman is skipped because we have 9 players? I LOVE SPARK MAN" etc.  The game already has a built in way avoid problems by just having the players call a mapvote.  I don't think this needs ACS to be fixed.

On the topic of Spark Man, I personally would love to see those rising platforms in the stage actually appear.  I don't think the layout actually lends itself well to that gimmick unfortunately, but it currently lacks any gimmicks and feels pretty bland imo.  Then again, I KNOW I'm in the minority there so ...ya know...whatever.