MM8BDM v5 - What maps do you feel need work? Pt. II

[LlamaHombre]

didn't mike ask for a mapinfo flag for that kinda shit and get turned down or

[Orange juice :l]

I figure the whole skip thing wouldn't be so cut and dry, ex. Sparkman would be less likely to appear gradually from 9 to 15(ish) players until it doesn't appear at all.

[Bikdark]

Well nothing's stopping you from mapvoting

[Raider]

Any plans to rework Air Man with 3D floors?




Really painful to look at .w.

[Magnet Dood]

Reason why those aren't 3D floors yet are because you can't spawn on them no matter what you set the spawnpoint's height to. You'd always spawn underneath platforms no matter what. That, and it would cause significant lag for software users (I think??? I can't really remember).

[Rozark]

Reason why those aren't 3D floors yet are because you can't spawn on them no matter what you set the spawnpoint's height to. You'd always spawn underneath platforms no matter what. That, and it would cause significant lag for software users (I think??? I can't really remember).

Actually there's a pretty hacky method of allowing spawns on 3D floors, but it would have to be done with each spawn. Airman with all 3D floors was made during the development of a different version but it was ultimately scrapped due the the sheer amount of 3D floors lagging computers (even high end ones).

[Thunderono]

With Light Vs. Wily out, we've had a chance to see some of the maps in deathmatch settings.  This has lead to one conclusion: Atomic Fire is always ridiculously easy to acquire. More times than not, it's placed in the middle of a field (with other less valuable weapons typically in less convenient places).  This is a problem because Atomic Fire is unbelievably centralizing, and it tends to drown out the rest of a weapon layout if it's easy to get.  I'll put a list of the maps affected by this and, if applicable, weapons they could be swapped with.

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MM1CUT: Ironically, the very first map in the game has Atomic Fire in a stupidly easy to access location.  With Rolling Cutter also on the map, why is it even here in the first place?  If it's to help the player learn about charging weapons (As MM1CUT is known as the "tutorial" map), then weapons like Pharaoh Shot or Homing Sniper may be better choices than Atomic Fire.  Hell, you could replace it with Magma Bazooka.

MM1FIR: The placement's better here.  It doesn't particularly need it, but you could swap Napalm Bomb and Atomic Fire's positions.

MM2HEA: Another Atomic Fire in the middle of a central room.  You could switch its placement with Ice Wave's.  Though, that does leave another power weapon in the middle of the room.  This one's a bit tough, and you obviously can't take it out.  Maybe replace Ice Wave with a different weapon?

MM2DW1: There's not actually much of an issue with this.  I just want to point out that this is a pretty decent placement of Atomic Fire (requires jumps and is generally out of the way), and it's the kind of placement that I'm trying to point all this towards.  Just figured I'd give an example.

MM3SHA: You could easily swap Remote Mine and Atomic Fire, but why, exactly, are Sakugarne and Atomic Fire on the same map?  One of them would need to go; there doesn't need to be two OHKO weapons in one map (though technically Sakugarne isn't OHKO; it's just honorary OHKO since if the enemy hits you once and you manage to not die they'll just stick to you like glue.)

MM4BRI: Blatant example.  It's worsened by the fact that Wind Storm is in a spot that would require MUCH more effort to reach despite it being less valuable of a weapon.  You could just swap the two.

MM5DAR: Even a map as great as this has a bad Atomic Fire spot.  It could be swapped with the nearby Flame Sword.

MM6TOM: Swap it and Power Stone.  The last thing a map with heavy hitters like Silver Tomahawk and Super Arm sitting in easy reach is more power just lying around.  it's funny because Power Stone starts with Power and it also isn't that bad

MM6KNI: With Flash Bomb, Thunder Beam and Knight Crush lying around, Atomic Fire is barely necessary in the first place.  Might be a contender for a MM9 weapon replacement.  also this is irrelevant but please for the love of god fix that 1 unit offset error on the green brick on the battlement nearby

MM7DW3: Could be swapped with Spread Drill.  Honestly speaking, why is Spread Drill up there in the first place?  It's good, but not that good.

MM7DW4: clearly you need to put Atomic Fire down with Guts Man G  I don't know if this is getting lumped with some of the other reworked MM7 maps, but it's a tad bit out in the open.  You could rotate Magic Card, Atomic Fire, and the two Tornado Holds' placements so that the T.Holds are on the pedestals and vice versa.

MMWTBRG: This map already has Top Spin (which is also placed accordingly with its strength).  It doesn't need Atomic Fire, let alone one placed in such an easy spot.

MMWTDW2: Same issue as before: it already has Top Spin.  This time, however, Atomic Fire is also placed in an area that players are less likely to travel to, and it's placed with more emphasis on its strength.  However, one still needs to go.

Naturally, Atomic Fire isn't the only weapon that should have its placement reconsidered (Why is Hard Knuckle in the middle of a main thoroughfare on MM1DW1), but I'm only addressing this in particular.  In addition, I don't know if Atomic Fire matters as much in Duel, so this might not apply there.  I'm simply referring to DM/TDM settings, and if it applies to Duel, then great.

I'm aware that this may come off as whining, but I just feel like a weapon as mindless as Atomic Fire shouldn't be mindless to acquire.  As stated before, it tends to dominate the player's weapon slots.  This even occurs in LMS modes, as the ability to take down an opponent with a single shot isn't something to take lightly.

[Bikdark]

I think a bigger problem is the weapon itself. Atomic Fire is an insanely gamebreaking and game-altering weapon that really never should've existed in the first place. Even if you make it harder to get, it will still remain a problem in all forms of play. I'm not going to go too deep into why it's such a flawed weapon IN THE MAP THREAD but it has a lot to do with the fact that running away is the best strategy in the game.

[Russel]

Greetings, everyone. With the advent of the weapons thread and the nice discussion surrounding MM5GRA, I felt it was time to figure out what we should do with one of the earliest maps replaced since v2a.
Let's talk about Burst Man.

What do you folks like about the map?
What do you dislike?
Is it good?
Is it bad?
What would you change about it and why?

I bring this up due to a recent change I made to the map's gel script that makes its mechanic more tolerable: You can now jump out of the purple gel when you're close to the top.
With this piece of information, I ask the most important question on this post:
How can this map be modified to better suit this new change?

Reminder that Mendez has made a few changes to this map, but aside from the eddie pit and some minor flow adjustments, there wasn't a whole lot changed.

You can download the map here.
It has some tests for under-liquid textures for some of the areas.

[Mendez]

I feel you should host the new version of MM7BUR and let everyone decide what they think of it before asking what can be improved because I don't think it'd be right to just ask them what they think of a changed map if they haven't got the chance to actually experience the new changes first. I'm fine with my work being hosted for feedback, so I'm kinda hoping you guys will get to playing it.

[Russel]

Alright, updated the post.

[Knux]

Aight, let's go one by one.

What do you folks like about the map?

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The ample space for fighting is a very welcomed feature, and being able to retreat into the structure if it gets too hot is pretty cool.

What do you dislike? What would you change about it and why?

I'll answer both of these in one go.

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This ledge right here. I understand it's for getting Arrow Buster, but it's pretty linear and can only be accessed from the area that has Power Stone, another one-of-a-kind weapon in the map. This area feels a bit isolated from the rest of the map, but it's not really that bad,


The yellow water, while working the way it did in MM7, really hurts a very important detail: weapon colors. While purple gel doesn't have this problem since players float up while on it, it would be good to know when you're about to get Tomahawk'd and add to the piss. Would it be too much work to have yellow-tinted textures? You could also just shove the color filter 3d floors close to the walls (like 8 units close?), only needing for the floor to have a yellow tint texture but allowing players to see eqipped weapons.


This area is risky in DM/Duel and downright useless in LMS modes as there are quite a few other paths to be taken that don't require potentially waiting for the gel to go up. I find Eddie's placement questionable with already pretty good weapons in the map, such as Tomahawk and Scorch, the latter being easily obtainable and aiding mobility across large areas. Even with the change to the purple gel allowing to jump, players would still need to wait for it to be high enough to get out of that pit. Might as well raise the bottom somewhat and add spikes to said bottom. After all, it screams "risk VS reward".


While I understand that this platform serves as an item holder and cover, more often than not it's kinda annoying to accidentally hit the ground bubbles or have to jump over/choke on Needle Cannon. Not sure how you'd go about fixing this, but maybe widening those two spaces by 32-64 units might help.

Is it good?
Despite my gripes with the map, it's pretty enjoyable to play on and I often have fun in it, so that's good.

You can now jump out of the purple gel when you're close to the top.
With this piece of information, I ask the most important question on this post:
How can this map be modified to better suit this new change?
Not sure what else I can add besides the suggestions I've already posted, but if you're not keen on adding spikes to the purple gel around Eddie's platform, then perhaps you could add teleporters to the sides under it, which are only reachable if the gel is low enough or if the player dived from a high enough height to reach them.

In fact, I'm not even sure if that gel change is necessary as all the areas with it have a ledge very close to them. Only place I could see this remotely being useful is the area with 3D floors and the gel, and even that's not really frustrating, IMO.

...This is based on the current core map and I was about to post it when I got double ninja'd. I'll provide feedback on the updated map later if necessary.

EDIT:

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GODDAMN IT, YES!


As far as I'm concerned, you pretty much exceeded expectations in this update. There's still the thing about the W-Tank platform complaint I posted, but overall, these changes most definitely help the map. Terrific work, Mendez.  

[Thunderono]

I had a look at the updated version of the map, and I'd definitely say that this is an improvement over the current version of Burst Man.  Just lowering the radically high upper section had a tremendous impact on the map.  Cutting down on the Power Stone room also helps, but I still have a few gripes with the map.

Before I hop into screenshot territory, a few things I'd like to mention right off the bat.  First off, whether intentional or not, you can jump from the gel to Eddie's platform with zero resistance whatsoever.  I'm not sure if that's what Knux was getting at with his mention of putting spikes around the pillar, but I'd definitely look into that.  Secondly, despite what I said earlier, I still think the Power Stone room is a little unnecessary (more on that later).  Finally, I'd recommend darkening the underwater (Underpee?  Underbeer?  What is this stuff, anyway?) textures.  While textures are a very welcome change from that eyesore filter, the bright yellow hurts my eyes, and I'd imagine there are others who feel the same way.

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Building off of my mention of the Power Stone room earlier, I feel like this hallway should be expanded on.  It's a fairly integral part of the map's flow, and for that it's only 128 units wide.  What you could possibly do is widen the hallway a little and then raise up the Power Stone room so it's a 32-64 high jump into it.  That way, the Power Stone room can function more as an extension to the hallway and feel a bit more natural while preserving the intended design of it being a "break room" of sorts.  Also visible in the screenshot is a texture offset issue (bottom right).  Oops.

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I'll be honest, I dislike this entire section.  It's very cramped, and the gel doesn't do much for the map.  Putting the gel under a 3D floor (or, at the very least, putting the top of the gel at the 3D floor) means more often than not it's just an inconvenience for anyone passing through, rather than something the players would want to put up with.  I'd rework it to be a little wider and to place the gel in a more natural fashion (that is, separate from 3D floors, possibly taking a larger role in the section than it currently does).

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This section also has the gel problem to an extent, but my issue is more how the non-gel area is very narrow and flat.  Again, the gel doesn't conduct fights very well, and it's obvious that the gel is used in this area to collect the items, rather than to mix up battles.  I don't think this area needs a total rework, but something needs to be done to the lip with Scorch Wheel to widen it, and possibly lower the whole section to put a staircase at the corner of the lip?  Might be worth looking into.

That said, I think with a little bit more work, I'd be willing to embrace this map.  As I mentioned earlier, the changes made do large favors for the map, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it turns out for v5!

[Watzup7856]

I'd like to bring up Cloud man for a second.

I honestly completely forgot this map existed until just today when we were talking about letting CSCM die and leave it out of core. This map never gets hosted anywhere. Then again, how do you go about making a compelling map with a small limiting texture set.

On second thought, if Crashman can be a good map then Cloud especially can since Cloud actually has more textures

[Korby]

Cloudman is already slated for a rework.