MM8BDM v5 - What maps do you feel need work? Pt. II

[Bikdark]

It's because the gimmicks make the map more interesting and make it feel more like the original stage that it's trying to represent. That makes the maps more enjoyable as a result.

The key thing is to make sure that the gimmicks don't interfere with the gameplay.

tl;dr at the bottom

The first statement is not necessarily true. We are playing an FPS, not a singleplayer platformer. Players enjoy when their flow of gameplay is consistent and not interrupted by something foreign (hence the hate for maps suchs as MM5GYR and MM5WAV). Some minor gimmicks such as disappearing blocks, moving platforms, teleporters, jump pads, etc are completely acceptable, easy to understand, and easy to use in combat. However, maps with larger, more gamechanging gimmicks are hated by the playerbase and are often banned from tournaments due to their un-fun nature. This hate is often due to the maps not being designed well (ie designing the map around the gimmick rather than the other way around). This is not to say that gamechanging gimmicks are bad. MM8FRO is a great example of a map that uses a seemingly idiotic FPS gimmick very well. The snowboards do not interrupt gameplay, are used in short spurts, and are not necessary to fully enjoy the map. MM8FRO is how maps with gamechanging gimmicks SHOULD be.

This brings me to the second statement.

Unfortunately, not every map with a huge gimmick is MM8FRO. Time and time again I see maps with liberally implemented gimmicks released and praised for their creativity, then mapvoted off of because they are zero fun to play on. Shit like MMBMAG, MM5GYR, MM4BRI are the things I'm talking about. Vanilla mappers are too overzealous with their map gimmicks, and they end up creating unplayable trash heaps because the gimmicks interfere with gameplay, not aid it.

This creates distrust between the devs and the players, where the players do not trust the devs to do a good job on their maps because they screwed up so often in the past -- which is exactly what's happening now. I do not hate gimmicks, but I do not trust 8bdm vanilla mappers to do a good job using gimmicks because of how bad they usually are.


tl;dr Gimmicks are not innately bad, but must be implemented properly. MM8BDM vanilla mappers have proven they are consistently bad at implementing gimmicks, therefore I am 100% against new ones as of now.

[Magnet Dood]

Backing up what Bikdark said, MM3SPA and MM4DRI would most likely not benefit from any gimmick whatsoever. The few that they did have would either be game-haltingly broken or borderline insignificant in an FPS enviroment. The maps don't need falling rocks/junk, randomly appearing platforms or rising blocks. No thanks.

Speaking of gimmicks, me and a couple of others think that MM7BUR ought to either involve the purple water more or scrap it entirely. The map has other problems, but that gimmick is barely even used, and in the places it is used are avoided like the plague. It'd be better if they could somehow involve it in more intuitive ways if they wanted to keep it, but just getting rid of it would also be an improvement.

[Lobsters]

I know I don't play the game online often, nor post on the forums ever. So I feel like a fish out of water here. (So whatever I'm trying to say may not come across clearly.) That aside, I get disappointed when I do play and maps I used to know and enjoy are either edited with some unneeded additions or outright ripped out and replaced. Maybe I'm being nostalgic the older maps of the days from V1D (when I started playing roughly two weeks before V2A arrived) and V2C are replaced with rather uninteresting eh, replacements. I find the older maps from V1D~ V2C and whatever maps weren't utterly replaced in V3 and V4 eras. To be more enjoyable than some of the maps from V3 and V4. It's sad seeing some of the older and honestly mostly smaller maps getting ousted for some big flat wasteland of snooze. Everytime, I play current MM3GEM I just don't get why the other areas. I barely play any "PvP" anymore because wads hosted are not my type. That's a different discussion for another time and place. I might not have adapted to 2 year old changes and simply have to suck it up.


Anywho about Spark and Drill man. I'd say those maps are classics and even better they work for what they are. Although they did receive some edits over the years the core of (maybe not so much for drill depending on how much you value the teleporter.) these maps remained generally the same and added no gimmicks or pointless new side areas. It's amazing they stayed true to what they were. I fear gimmicks would break that. It's bad enough there's already gimmicky maps that are just no fun. Gyro well gyro has the blinding as fuck skybox, the awkwardly bad 3D floor platforming on the outskirts 3D floors for the sake of 3D floors. The map has no interesting central focus area of conflict if you can even see without marching off an edge. The main killer on the outskirts are stupid pits. Mancannons/fans are pretty much catering to a stalling run away playstyle that drags out the match even more. Map is HUGE. Give me some hitscan please Gyro can be semi-fun with a sniping weapon mod.

 Wave.... nothing like riding my hog through the waves just for my target to do the same and end up on the otherside. A match on wave in my experiences pretty much ended up like a Scooby Doo cartoon sequence involving a hallway with doors. WHERE'D HE GO SCOOB!? To be fair old wave was rather unpleasant at best. Drill's fine as is. I'm not unopposed to change. I'm ok with spark just a slight peeve against the pit area being not worth going into and rough to navigate vs the smoother surface. Just don't do edits for the sake of edits it doesn't really help and that's how the last few updates came across to me.

If anything had to change in a map it SHOULD be adjustments to the flow and how you maintain your speed especially around doing some stairs/"platforming." Maybe I've been playing better FPS games compared to mm8bdm but when I do come back to mm8bdm... maps come across as uninteresting and lacking a good flow to maneuver around in. I do not like gimmicks that break up the match and are centralized as the concept of the map especially when badly executed. WAVE BIKES (It's an easy target, and hasn't been executed where it's fun in a pvp map.) I just want a map where it's fun to maneuver around in. Hell, as far as I'm concerned a map can look like texture soup as long as it has a good flow, nice variations in terrain not just all parking lots or HUGE stretches of flat ground. Too many newer maps are guilty of big flat stretches of dull (More on that later). Jumps/"MM8BDM Staircases" slow you down much and leave you a sitting duck at times. Jumping up stairs is really obnoxious. It has improved over the years with stairs you run over similar to doom. It's just weird that stairs in wide open areas become a choke point. It'd be nice if the platforming aspects were also utilized better as an alternative to get across. EX: In mm6kni in the main hall (Room with rain flush and two stairways with.. balconies?) You jump from the corner pillar to rain flush to the pillar on the opposite balcony. Cuts travel time considerably with some skill required.

 I know in the past how much I expressed my love for this one feature of a certain CTF map (LOL CTF).  

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The platforming segments are more than just stairs. They also allow escape/entry ways via platforming that isn't too obstructive or bland stairs. JUNK MAN ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN STAIRS Junk does have nice little jumps over lava that are maybe too much risk vs reward.

I'm not sure if I should express this but, along with maps becoming centralized on gimmicks they are also overly focused on aesthetics. Sure it looks pretty but it's got no soul. I see core/vanilla mm8bdm as sort of a guideline or standard. Sure community mappacks may not reach the "standard" and that's alright gotta start somewhere. However they've reached the "standard" and have really become focused on looking pretty and having shitty layouts with huge empty spaces.   Gimmicks can be fun for some people I guess. Maybe I'm just salty it doesn't cater to me, maybe I'm frustrated that some maps get completely replaced instead of having their flaws addressed. Maybe I'm behind the times. Maybe I'm not an active part of the conversation. I still have fun on something frustratingly bumpy like napalm vs cold, museum, magic, clown, mega water, wily tower maps. Hell old school V2 spring man is more interesting than some of these new maps and we all know how the BOMB THAT MAP WAS. No not really I take back the V2 Spring man statement. Current Spring man is a gimmicky map that I find for the most part enjoyable. Good work whoever made that.

-LORBSTERS

[BiscuitSlash]

I'm not implying that MM3SPA and MM4DRI should necessarily have gimmicks in them. I just find them a bit lackluster compared to other maps.

Original MM3MAG was like this, but it got changed to be better.

[Mendez]

"MM7BUR: There is a LOT going on here. There's high ground, low ground, middle ground, five hundred flanking routes, count bomb routes, bounce pad routes, some random room in the back that contributes literally nothing to the map that nobody goes to, and two different types of non-death water. In my humble opinion, this map needs a rework to where it's just simpler-- you can't tell if the emphasis on this map's geometry was supposed to be vertical or horizontal.
In a slightly more minor note, if you're caught in this, you're essentially fucked until either somebody discovers and murders you or you survive the ten seconds of shame. Why is this here?" - Thunderono
Hi, I'm just here to justify a lot of the design choices for my map. I know a lot of people have hated how vertical the map can feel at times, which is why I worked on reducing the heights of 3d floors and making it much easier to get toward the 2nd floor. The map is meant to encourage skirmishes in big open areas, which is why you see all the routes converging at large area before branching off into smaller paths. The more paths that converge, the larger the fighting area becomes.
While the map does include a lot of routes, I find this okay since everything will lead you to a big open area where it's more likely to find opponents and get into firefights. There are a lot of bounce pads and count bombs, but I've included these because they make vertical travel much more convenient than just taking a ladder while reducing the amount of space a staircase would have taken. In the new version, you won't have to jump on the bounce pads, but simply walk onto the floor. Also, a bounce pad route was removed since it seemed more convenient to just have a large step there. Finally, the purple water surrounding the Eddie no longer descends, which means you can easily swim your way out if you want.
The reason the map includes loads of different ideas is because the source material packed in a lot of ideas. In the youtube video below, you will several instances of count bombs, yellow pools, purple floating pools, and bounce pads. It honestly wouldn't feel like Burst Man if I didn't try to incorporate these ideas in some fashion, and I tried to include these ideas without hindering the flow of the map. It's very difficult to strike a balance between "overdoing a gimmick" and "pushing a gimmick off to the side", especially when there's several gimmicks to work with.

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Finally, here's a list of screenshots showing off the numerous changes I made to the map. If you guys still have any complaints, then please send them over to me so that I can change them. This is my map, and I treat it with a lot of pride because it was the map that won me a competition. I guess that sounds pretty lame, but whatever.

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Here's an example of the reduced 3d floor height, and the new bounce pad heights.

This staircase now replaces the series of jumps that needed to be made to get to the second floor.

Fuck you, I'm keeping this part. By the way Smash, there's your fucking E-tank in the center. Happy now?

The bounce pad has been replaced with a simple large step to make it more convenient and smooth to get to the second floor. If you want another staircase, fuck you.

The unused portion of this room has been removed, although it still exists to house Power Stone and provide a small hiding room if you want to avoid or recover from a firefight.

Finally, the routes leading up to a couple of the bounce pads have been converted into staircases for added convenience. They may look a little weird, but they work so that's all I care about.

I'll send this newer version to the devs again since I just recently added the staircases to the bounce pads. Hopefully you hate this map less in V5.

[Hallan Parva]

Fuck you, I'm keeping this part. By the way Smash, there's your fucking E-tank in the center. Happy now?

just because you dislike visually pleasing symmetry does not mean you have to be an asshole about it

but yes it looks way better now

[King Dumb]

Seeing as this has slowed down for the time being, I'd like to start bringing up some maps that perhaps haven't been mentioned in detail yet, but that I would still like feedback from everyone on!

By all means, continue to post about any maps you want to talk about as well! The discussion is surely not limited to just one map. But for those with no burning complaints at this time, please share with us your thoughts on MM2QUI. A very old map, it may seem odd that only now people have begun speaking negatively about it, but nevertheless I have noticed recently multiple grievances with the map's level of symmetry and its grid-like nature. Even since the addition of more ways to travel past the quickbeams.

What do you think about MM2QUI? Do you feel it's fine as-is, or do you feel that it could use some changes to become better? Or do you think it needs completely replaced??? Share your thoughts about MM2QUI here!

[SmashTheEchidna]

I find it difficult to find people in a fairly sizable, symmetrical stage. I don't know what else you could do to improve the stage since shrinking it doesn't sound like it'll work very well. Maybe you could keep one half of the stage the same and rework the other half? It'd be interesting to have an area based on the lighting gimmick in the original MM2 stage.

[Thunderono]

I think I mentioned this briefly earlier, but the fact that the fighting funnels into the corners is completely ass.  The stage is incredibly difficult to fight in anywhere else, and the quick beams really don't help the flow.  Seriously, how are lasers separating every single room a good idea?  The teleporter pits help, but it's still awkward to move around and the fighting usually just boils down to a nice big game of Four Corners.  Spawn in one and find the one the enemies are in!  Personally, I'd say it could use either heavy editing or a complete rework.

[Knux]

MM2QUI is quite literally the definition of lazy, and even though I don't need to, I'm willing to explain in detail why this is so in a simple (hahah) list. I'm ranging these from worst to less bad unless stated otherwise. In general, what I believe needs to be looked at are the following aspects:

- SQUARES: The Map. While maps such as MM1CUT and MM2HEA had changes made to them over time that made them more interesting than running around like a rat trapped in a box, MM2QUI has somehow managed to become the Coelacanth of 8BDM, and not in a good way. By good mapping standards, a box map is only acceptable as practice by someone who is still learning how to construct a map. While box maps aren't exactly a terrible thing to have, MM2QUI is unfortunately a collection of nine boxes, with only two real viable ways to travel it, which I will get to soon. For now, however, the other thing that rivals the box collection (or really, plays satan's little helper with it) is none other than...

- The Quickbeams from Hell. As I've already mentioned, there are two viable ways to run around the stage. There would be three, but because the aforementioned gimmick is handled in an intrusive manner, the main paths are quite the risky route to take. One could argue that getting somewhere else faster is a reward from taking that risk, but with a layout that is completely symmetrical, how in the dicks are you supposed to know exactly where you need to go? This brings me to my next point, which is...

- The Maze of Hate. I'd like to go into more detail here than in my first point, because there's something more annoying than having a maze of nine squares. What's that, you ask? Well, what if I told you that there are no vantage points to look over the level? But wait, there's always falling from/getting to the corner holes and looking to both sides! Then comes a grieving decision: Do you wait to spot your opponent then and there, or do you go looking for them possibly in the middle or the opposite corner? Waiting for someone to get there is boring as fuck, and they won't necessarily get to you (or you to them) either, because suddenly "lol random quickbeams" will be there to ruin your life. Do I even need to mention how quickbeams fuck up your chase route? Yeah, I didn't think so, either. You don't have the luxury of using the alternate paths everywhere, either, and if they were everywhere then the map would probably look uglier than hell.

(Speaking of random quickbeams, I am aware that they run on a perfectly organized script. The fact that they still manage to screw up players as they do? I perceive that as fucked up.)

Oh, turns out I lied! All of these elements synergize harmoniously into a player's worst game.

The fuck do we do about all this? I have a simple suggestion, based on the options KD seems to be willing to take. What needs to be done with MM2QUI is construct a layout that takes the unique gimmick that are Quickbeams and use them in a way that won't punish players for trying to play the goddamned map. Although a bunch of ways to use them effectively comes to mind, I do not want to specify how, as I want people to come up with their own fresh breaths of ideas and it would probably be impolite in general. Hell, I'm already livid as it is because I want to play Deathmatch in Quick Man's map and the highest frag count goes to Hades's Hamster Cage of Hate.

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- EOR -
End Of Rant

EDIT: An honorable mention goes to Quickbomb Alley from IX-pack, for using Quickbeams as an alternate path leading to a power weapon.

[BiscuitSlash]

Even though I've always loved that map, when recently playing it I do feel its shortcomings.

I say redo the layout to make its design far more interesting. Still keep the quickbeams in some way, as they're too iconic to leave out.

[LlamaHombre]

What if individual quick beam projectiles only did like 10 damage to the player instead of killing them outright?
With this in mind, pursuing people across rooms no longer becomes a trick of RNG manipulation - if necessary, you can take the hits and finish what you started instead of having to either full stop and hope the opponent's stayed around since the laser fired, or try to book it and often get killed in the process. Getting caught out in the intersections or the alleyways would still spell death, but moving from room to room wouldn't be much worse than, say, clipping through a fire trap.

The corners of the map also have room for improvement, but in general I feel the above may serve as a solution to a problem that's plagued the map since v1.

EDIT:

i also think the weapon energies around the pillar could probably be shrunk as they're not nearly as contested and it could create interesting scenarios where you have to use a non-dominant weapon because of ammo limitations[though this is unlikely because someone would probably just end up monorunning something and pouring all the ammo into that. also because there's already a crapton of ammo on the map]

I never actually responded to all of this, whoops! (MM4COS)
Either way, I'd like to congratulate you for at least convincing me that all the health there is justified given the damage levels on that stage, and I feel downsizing the ammo things like you mentioned here would serve as a good compromise to my suggestion. If a killbox like that must exist based on item placement or map structure or whatever, I'd at least hope for some incentive to exist to leave said killbox.

As a potential experiment, how do you think the map would change if the door by Astro Crush was sealed off and the outdoor section were adjusted to combine with the Ring Boomerang spawn? (At least, I think that's what's up there. The elevation with the two ladders.)

[Bikdark]

Reminder that the lights on/off gimmick on MM4BRI needs to go ENTIRELY. It makes the map insanely unfun and prompts as many "CALLVOTE PLZ"es as the old map did.

[tsukiyomaru0]

Reminder that the lights on/off gimmick on MM4BRI needs to go ENTIRELY. It makes the map insanely unfun and prompts as many "CALLVOTE PLZ"es as the old map did.

I brought that up again, yeah, but instead it needs a "no-blackout" half of it, where it is less rewarding to stay. Or perhaps the sections should alternate: When one is dark, the other is not, and vice-versa

[BiscuitSlash]

Or make it really dark but not too dark.

Or change the map design a little to compensate for the gimmick.

And/or remove the death pits.


Basically don't do what Bik says. Getting rid of the original stage's interesting feature will make the map boring. Don't make the game boring. If you want competitive play then just host a server that does not have the maps that aren't that suited to competitive play.